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wisdomseeker
Guest
I see nothing here to substantiate this so called pentecostalism of today, nothing.
"True Catholics are those who follow the tradition," said one day St. Pius X
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"True Catholics are those who follow the tradition," said one day St. Pius X
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FirstCalled
Guest
You bring up the first two centuries. Some have argued that the gift of tongues was only conferred directly by those who experienced the Pentecost, and after those originals died, only those they laid hands on could pray in tongues but none after.
As far as Brother JR and St. Francis, I can’t find any evidence that he did, some here-say by website who speculate that he did but I can find now writing to document it other than people saying he did, offering nothing to base it on.
Aside from whether or not God allows certain individuals to possess these gifts let’s examine this more carefully.
My experience with the Charismatic movement has been that Charismatic priests give lessons on speaking in tongues, slap together some syllables, rock back and forth, and say it again and again. Don’t believe in it, just keep doing it.
That is my problem. The amount of people I see doing this is very disturbing, many whom I doubt genuinely have the gifts of the Spirit when they are being trained to act as such.
If someone legitimately has gifts those gifts should be investigated and recorded by the Vatican. However, priests doing these trainings obviously don’t believe these are genuine gifts by not making such an attempt.
The comment one made about Traditional Catholics being the most averse to gifts doesn’t even merit a response.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Oh really?
In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.
That seems pretty clear to me.
It seems as if St. Francis exhibited some of these gifts, and it appears his Order has for some time.
Wasn’t Saint Pius X influenced by Franciscan spirituality?
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
so if we are going to “throw out” the gift of tongues, does that mean we throw out all the other gifts too,
you know-
wisdom
understanding
fortitude
knowledge
piety
fear of the Lord
oh, wait…
I think that this may have already happened!
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FirstCalled
Guest
Aside from using Saints exhibiting these gifts would you care to respond to my comments about the modern day revival amongst the laity exhibiting these gifts, if they are indeed such? Have you attended a Life in the Spirit seminar? What were your reactions? In my experience, when the light comes on, everyone’s all peachy normal, altogether ordinary, many whom I know to be hardly saints, I can accept Saints who spend all day in prayer perhaps possessing these gifts, but what about the majority of people today?
I am not against legitimate gifts of the Holy Spirit, what I am against are mockeries of said gifts.
I am not against legitimate gifts of the Holy Spirit, what I am against are mockeries of said gifts.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Irenaeus wrote AH in 180 AD, which means his writing was present tense. And at that time of present tense, he was writing that these things were happening and were widespread. Were there an abundant amount of second generation disciples during that time? Well take a look at when Pentecost happened, lets say it happened at 40 AD. If someone were to experience Pentecost as a newborn and were to be around during Irenaeus’ time they would be 140 years old. The implication is obviously the gifts continued past those people.
To me it seems pretty obvious that several Saints, Francis included, have used these gifts. Prophecy, discernment of spirits, teaching, and others are all rather evident.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Two words;
Saint. Jerome.
The unofficial Patron Saint of Jerks everywhere. And there has been SEVERAL Saints who have hardly lived holy lives their entire time on Earth, including Peter, Paul, and Thomas.
As for if I have done a Life in the Spirit seminar, I can answer that in more detail when I am done work today,
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
Saints are human beings too.
St. Ignatius of Loyola was not always a “saint”.
As a matter of fact, he was a prideful, willful, lustful guy, whom, by his own admission, was never worthy of doing what God called him to do. So, without the “gifts of the spirit”, he may never have found his way and more than likely would have never been a saint!!
Like anything, some people will always take things way to far to one side or the other.
The Spirit works in very mysterious ways and so long as the “Spirit” is not telling a person to do something that is totally contradictory to the dogma of the faith who are any of us to say that anyone cannot or should not be able to have these gifts given to them.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
do you have any record of laity people in a room all speaking this such language that no one understands? do you have any record of heretical groups back then laying hands on Catholics so they could receive these gifts? do you have any record of Catholics then mixing with heretical groups all speaking in tongues? do you have any record today that any leader of the CC is certifying that these speaking in tongues are real? any leader? who? do you have any record that this gift was giving by the laity to laity?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i think he was asking to show the laity people. you mentioned the leaders of the Church, how about laity, today, the laity is the one claiming as such.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Records of laity? Yes, I just posted one above from Irenaeus. He speaks of many people who use/had gifts like that.
And dude, we’ve given you in other threads quotes from the last two Popes and what they have said about this issue. Did you try reading them?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
ST Francis was priest. this is the problem with the pentecostalism of today, they do not discern between the leaders of the Church and the laity. this is protestantism at best.
no surprise to me that Catholics would think just like protestants, since they got this idea from protestants who denies that the Church even exists let alone leaders of the Church.
if one digs deep into the teachings of this so called charismatics, one would understand what is really behind of all this.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Several Saints who exhibited these gifts were laity. What, can only clerics be Saints?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
who?
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Melchior_1
Guest
No, he wasn’t a Priest. He was never ordained a Priest, just like several other Saints who had these gifts were never ordained a Priest.
You sure you shouldn’t be the one doing more digging?
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Oneofthewomen
Guest
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Melchior_1
Guest
Pretty much, although he might say people like St. Claire don’t count because they were consecrated.wisdomseeker…
oh, just about any Saint who is a woman!!!
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wisdomseeker
Guest
he was not a priest, he became a deacon.
do you see anybody in this movement that reminds us of St Francis? doing what he did?
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Melchior_1
Guest
You said earlier he was a Priest (“ST Francis was priest”). He did become a Deacon though.
As for “do you see anybody in this movement that reminds us of St Francis?”, yes I do. There’s a University in Ohio you may have heard of. Oh, and a whole Order of Priests, Sisters, and the Third Order who follow his spiritual legacy. Brother JR is but one example of the fruits of this, as are several other members of the S.F.O.
And I suppose you can throw me in there as well, as I model my life in a Franciscan fashion without being a member of the Orders he founded (…yet).
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FirstCalled
Guest
So I take it you approve of this method of Charismatics within the Catholic Church. You believe that you can be trained in these gifts instead of given them?
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