What do you think of the charismatic gifts of Pentecost?

[po18guy]

Brasil is one of them. without mention that after VII those mega churches begin spreading and taking Catholics with them. we know that the attendance of Catholics in Church became scarce. France lost many Catholics. throughout Europa the CC lost many Catholics. south America lost thousands of Catholics for protestantism.

Do not blame Vatican II for any of this. Faithful believers will stay no matter what. What you are seeing is the increasing secularization of the entire world. Europe, in particular, is abandoning Christianity no matter what the form. Those who have left, in Calvin-like fashion, have shown that their hearts were not in the Church to begin with. When things get bad, they will have only one place to go. Latin America has fallen prey to the jumping and stumping bible churches that promise excitement and music - a part of our noise-driven culture. But, read the convert threads here. When the seratonin wears off, they look for something permanent in their faith. Where to go? There’s only one place. Relax and remain faithful - God is in charge of everything.

As our Auxiliary Bishop (who has celebrated mass at charismatic events) says: “The Catholic Church does not need numbers. It needs Apostles”.

 

[anjoh66]

Brasil is one of them. without mention that after VII those mega churches begin spreading and taking Catholics with them. we know that the attendance of Catholics in Church became scarce. France lost many Catholics. throughout Europa the CC lost many Catholics. south America lost thousands of Catholics for protestantism.

We are going to much OT but its not because of VII, the reason is that the protestants was much better in their “evangelism” and the catholic church failed theirs.

The charismatic movement is drawing millions of people who otherwise might have left the church for joining protestant congregations.

Especially in Africa where CCR is a major force as an opponent to the many evangelical movements.

Blaming VII is a great ignorance about the facts and it appears more like prejudice or at least someone to blame.

It is we as catholics who didnt do our job, shame on us, traditionalists and charismatics alike.

 

[archangel04]

Likewise, I find it a bit odd that many who claim to be interested in the “gift of tongues” cannot find the time, motivation or patience to learn less than 850 words of Latin necessary to assist in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy.

Happy Holidays.

And they are usually the ones bringing guitars and dance to mass as well.

 

[archangel04]

youtube.com/watch?v=J-QDOcDGDWA
Although this is not my cup of tea I respect SOME of the members in this movement, but for what ever reason I always feel as if there is some agenda behind all this, but maybe I am just paranoid

 

[JReducation]

Just a quick clarification here on St. Francis and the Franciscans.

St. Francis was not a priest. He was a layman when he founded our order in 1209. In 1223 he was ordained a deacon. There was a 14-year period between the time that he made vows and was ordained a deacon. The reason for his ordination was to allow him to confer faculties. In those days, only clerics could grant faculties and a deacon is a cleric. This rule was changed shortly after his death; therefore, the permanent diaconate was banned from the Franciscan order. Today it is allowed in a case by case basis.

The friars at Franciscan University are just that, Friars. We are not an order of priests. There are over 20 Franciscan branches of men. Many do ordain some friars. But they remain brothers in every sense of the word. Though we do not get offended when someone calls us Father, we do not like it. We enter the order to be sons of St. Francis who was always a little brother. Everyone of our friars is equal, be they ordained or not. Brother is the preferred title. Though in the USA it is common to call all priests Father, it is not the norm among Franciscans around the world. Fr. in front of a friar’s name often means Frater or Friar. Sometimes you will see it written as Fra. It is used by the ordained and non-orained. The difference is in the Rev. in front of the name. The non ordained are Ven, unless he is the superior, then he too is Rev. Father, ordained or not, just as a female superior is Rev. Mother.

The SFO and the OSF are not the same order. The SFO is the Secular Franciscan Order. It is an order of secular men and women. Most are married, but there are also many secular deacons, priests, bishops and popes among them: Pope Leo XIII, Pius X, Pius XII, John XXIII, Cardinal John Newman, just to name a few.

The OSF is a branch of the OFM, as are the CFR, FPO, MFVA, FBP, LBSF, FBE. The OSF stands for Order of St. Francis.

Francis founded three orders, but wrote four rules: Two for the friars: active and hermits, the Poor Clares, and the Brothers and Sisters of Penance (SFO and TOR).

Yes, Francis did pray in tongues, had the gifts of prophecy and healing. He is one of many saints who had these gifts: lay, religious and clerics.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Willy_Jose]

Originally Posted by Willy Jose
*For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.
*

here listen to this if you will.

sensustraditionis.org/multimedia.html

click on pentecost sermon.

Yes, I clicked and listened to the link, thank you. Nice sermon but it does not answer my question. I asked you to cite “the official and standing Church pronouncements” that make a “sweeping generalization” on the modern Charismatic movement. A recorded sermon (even delivered excellently as it were) from an unnamed cleric does not count. We do understand what the Magisterium means don’t we. Of course we are free to have our own opinions and feelings on the subject, but tell us about the official Church posture on Charismatic movements.

 

[guanophore]

From what I’ve heard our early Church fathers, 400s, I forget who exactly will look it up, said that no one exhibited signs of these pentecostal gifts, anywhere, within the Church. It was something that had it’s time and place and then went dormant.

This is one of the statements of Augustine. Certainly he did not seem to be aware that the gifts were still functioning outside of his own experience. He did not travel much, as he spent most of his time in his library researching and praying.

I am curious why they were thought to be “dormant”? If Augustine had described some of the charismatic experiences like the early writers, would they be more believable?

Fast forward to today and we are seeing it occurring within the Church. Probably because of the influence of popular protestants in the past 100 years who started praying in 'tongues' when no one has really since the NT was written.

It is said that this has reached into Catholic circles.

If you were presented with evidence that Catholic saints and holy people have experienced these gifts throughout history, would you still think it had a “protestant” source?

Do you really think that any authentic Christian teaching or experience exists in Protestantism that did not originate in the Catholic Church?

I have attended several Charismatic events and heard priests talk about praying in tongues.
They say it doesn’t matter that you can’t understand what you say, they say pick some random syllables and say them over and over.
This is not prayer.

I have heard this too. No, it is more like priming the pump for prayer.

It also says by Paul that when in Church one should speak in native tongues so that people can understand.

yes. Do you think there is no use for a private prayer experience in tongues?

But all in all I do believe we can trace this modern Charismatic movement to heretical protestants who popularized in around the 1900-1930 period.

Jesus said Luke.11 [10] For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
[11] What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent;
[12] or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13] If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

If our separated brethren received the HS from God, then it only happened because they read this Catholic teaching in the Scriptures, believed it, and asked.

Most Protestants have no idea they have embraced heresies, and seek God sincerely in the best way they know how.

Catholics who attended these prayer meetings could find nothing uncatholic about asking for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

It endangers one’s soul because when you can have this experience with the Spirit you take yourself out of the guidance of one of His chosen apostles, their teachings, as well as the sacraments they can confer to you by believing that you can unite with God without the Church and her sacraments.

Hmm. Thank you for this comment. This is exactly what I am seeking in the OP. Here are my puzzlements with what you have written. If our separated brethren were not under the guidance and authority of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic faith, then how does seeking a release of the HS in their lives take themselves “out of the guidance” any more than they already were?

Secondly, since when does unity with God in the Church and sacramental life mean that one cannot have an experience of the HS individually?

The HS is not bound by the visible Church, or the Sacraments. He can touch and inflame the lives of whoever He wants! Remember when the people were called to report to MOses, and God poured out his spirit upon them? Two stayed in the camp, and failed to report to the tent of meeting, but God poured HIs spirit out upon them also. Num 11: 27

In my humble opinion. I could be wrong.

I think we are all in agreement that authentic gifts are always under the authority appointed by God. This is to prevent the very disorder that we have all observed among our separated brethren. Our Holy Father was just talking about the need for mystics and those having ecstatic experiences to submit to the authority of the Church.

But in the case of this example he used of Hildegard of Bingen, she experienced the gifts of the HS very individually. Her visions were not confined to the Church and the sacraments, though I am sure that it was here reverent participation in them that disposed her.

 

[guanophore]

This is why it’s so popular, at least according to my Universities Religious Studies professors.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival

Can you help me understand what it was about the Azusa Street Revival that explains “why it’s so popular”?

I dont’ have any data on this, but I venture to guess that most charismatics and pentecostals have never even heard of it!

I don't have much respect for most Charismatic movements. As it seems like they turn on their "gifts" when it is convenient and they are having a meeting.

What do you think would be more appropriate? Is there another time when you think htey should be “turned on”? I mean, I think we are all in agreement that the Divine Liturgy is not the appropriate venue.

I’ve seen people act as though possessed and other lay people attempting to cast out demons. All this before the exposed Eucharist with priests present.
Absurd, undignified, and disrespectful to say the least.

Do you think the priests present at such events are failing in pastoral duty, to allow such behavior?

 

[guanophore]

what does this means? are you trying to say that the pope says that this movement is real? this letter does not speak of charismatic movements. at least not to me.

What do you mean by “charismatic movement”?

What do you mean by “real”?

Are you asking “Is the Pope saying that what started on Azusa Street is authentic”?

Do you believe there are authentic charismatic gifts that are not connected to a “movement”?

 

[guanophore]

For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.

I don’t think either of these statements were made. Just repeating syllables, it was stated, is not prayer.

It was also not stated that the modern Charismatic movement endangers the soul. What was stated was that a departure from the authority appointed by Christ, and lack of connection with the sacramental life of the Church endangers the soul. I am sure someone will correct me if I misunderstood that.

 

[guanophore]

I find it odd that the people who are most opposed to or afraid of the gift of tongues are the strongest proponents of the TLM.

Just saying…

I find it odd as well, which is the main reason I posted the query here. What do you think is the significance of that?

 

[guanophore]

Likewise, I find it a bit odd that many who claim to be interested in the “gift of tongues” cannot find the time, motivation or patience to learn less than 850 words of Latin necessary to assist in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy.

Happy Holidays.

Why would one wish to do so, when celebrating Divine Liturgy in Greek is so much more exquisite?

 

[guanophore]

 I see nothing here to substantiate this so called pentecostalism of today,  nothing.

I would like to avoid discussing “this so called pentecostalism of today” if you dont’ mind. Instead, would you be willing to respond to the question in the topic line??

"True Catholics are those who follow the tradition," said one day St. Pius X

Do you believe the charismatic gifts of Pentecost are contrary to the tradition?

 

[Willy_Jose]

Originally Posted by Willy Jose
*For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.*

I don’t think either of these statements were made. Just repeating syllables, it was stated, is not prayer.

It was also not stated that the modern Charismatic movement endangers the soul. What was stated was that a departure from the authority appointed by Christ, and lack of connection with the sacramental life of the Church endangers the soul. I am sure someone will correct me if I misunderstood that.

I am sorry if I misread the post. Here are the full sentences from Firstcalled.

*I have attended several Charismatic events and heard priests talk about praying in tongues. They say it doesn’t matter that you can’t understand what you say, they say pick some random syllables and say them over and over.
This is not prayer…

But all in all I do believe we can trace this modern Charismatic movement to heretical protestants who popularized in around the 1900-1930 period. It endangers one’s soul because when you can have this experience with the Spirit you take yourself out of the guidance of one of His chosen apostles, their teachings, as well as the sacraments they can confer to you by believing that you can unite with God without the Church and her sacraments.*

Maybe Firstcalled can clarify further.

 

[guanophore]

You bring up the first two centuries. Some have argued that the gift of tongues was only conferred directly by those who experienced the Pentecost, and after those originals died, only those they laid hands on could pray in tongues but none after.

How do people that argue this explain the occurances among the saints and holy members of the Church throughout the ages?

As far as Brother JR and St. Francis, I can't find any evidence that he did, some here-say by website who speculate that he did but I can find now writing to document it other than people saying he did, offering nothing to base it on.

Perhaps he was thinking of the other St. Francis (Xavier) ?

Wonderful worker of miracles, Pray for us.
Who wast endued with the gift of tongues, Pray for us.

There is a reference to the gift of tongues in the Novena to St. Anthony.
[/INDENT]

Aside from whether or not God allows certain individuals to possess these gifts let’s examine this more carefully.

Actually, this is not an “aside” but the crux of my query. Do you believe that God gifts these gifts, but only to certain persons?

My experience with the Charismatic movement has been that Charismatic priests give lessons on speaking in tongues, slap together some syllables, rock back and forth, and say it again and again. Don’t believe in it, just keep doing it.
That is my problem. The amount of people I see doing this is very disturbing, many whom I doubt genuinely have the gifts of the Spirit when they are being trained to act as such.

Well, setting aside any negative experiences you may have had with any “movement”, can you respond to the question in the thread topic?

How would you be able to tell if any experience was “genuine”?

If someone legitimately has gifts those gifts should be investigated and recorded by the Vatican. However, priests doing these trainings obviously don’t believe these are genuine gifts by not making such an attempt.

Why do you think that the gifts given to each individual believer should be investigated and recorded by the Vatican?

This makes me think you don’t beleive that such gifts are avaliable to all.

Do you think an investigation by the Vatican is the only way to determine authenticity?

In the link above, I posted a reference of the Holy Father to Hildegard of Bingen. Do you think that here gifts were not authentic until the Vatican investigated them?

The comment one made about Traditional Catholics being the most averse to gifts doesn't even merit a response.

Why not? Do you not think this has merit? Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say that Traditional Catholics react the most negatively to the “movement” issue, primarily because they perceive that it has it’s roots in Protestant heresies.

 

[guanophore]

Aside from using Saints exhibiting these gifts would you care to respond to my comments about the modern day revival amongst the laity exhibiting these gifts, if they are indeed such?

No, not really. I think that belongs on another thread. This thread is about the charismatic gifts of Pentecost, written about by Paul in Corinthians, and elsewhere in the NT.

I really dont’ want to get off on “movements” or abuses.

I gather from your inquiry that your reply to the question in the thread topic is “if they are indeed such” they are misused?

Have you attended a Life in the Spirit seminar? What were your reactions? In my experience, when the light comes on, everyone’s all peachy normal, altogether ordinary, many whom I know to be hardly saints, I can accept Saints who spend all day in prayer perhaps possessing these gifts, but what about the majority of people today?

This is a just question, however, scripture is clear that those who received these gifts were far from holy. On the contrary, it seems that the Church in Corinth was quite immature, immoral, and uncontrolled. St. Paul had to write to them about a variety of behavior problems, besides the abuse of the eucharistic liturgy and the charismata.

What makes you think that such gifts are only given to those who “spend all day in prayer”? Do you get this idea from Scripture?

I am not against legitimate gifts of the Holy Spirit, what I am against are mockeries of said gifts.

I think everyone agrees on that. The question of this thread, however, is about the legitimate gifts.

I find it curious that there appears to be no acceptable place for them among Traditional Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

do you have any record of laity people in a room all speaking this such language that no one understands? do you have any record of heretical groups back then laying hands on Catholics so they could receive these gifts?

Please Wisdom, I know you have a lot of issues around these things, but try to stay on topic.

The question in the OP was not about any of these things you are raving about here.

do you have any record of Catholics then mixing with heretical groups all speaking in tongues?

Should I take this to mean that, if a Catholic has a legitimate gift, they would not share it in the company of our separated brethren?

 do you have any record today that any leader of the CC is certifying that these speaking in tongues are real?  any leader?  who? do you have any record that this gift was giving by the laity to laity?

What type of “certification” would you consider acceptable?

Do you not think that God has the power to pour out his spirit upon all flesh? do you think that God is confined to the clergy?

Acts.2
[17] `And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;

Do you believe that an “authentic” gift would only come through the laying on of hands by a priest or a bishop?

Do you think Hildegard of Bingen did not have any visions until hands were laid upon her by a priest?

 

[guanophore]

i think he was asking to show the laity people. you mentioned the leaders of the Church, how about laity, today, the laity is the one claiming as such.

Claiming what, as such?

Do you see anything in the Church that might indicate that the prayer of Pope John XXIII to the Holy Ghost to “renew Thy wonders in our day as by a new Pentecost” opening Vatican II has been answered?

What do you imagine the HOly Father had in mind, praying for a “new Pentecost”?

 

[guanophore]

ST Francis was priest.

Do you think that the gifts of Pentecost are appropriate only to priests?

this is the problem with the pentecostalism of today,

Please try to focus, Wisdom. I realize you have an excessive degree of hostility and anxiety about “pentecostalism today”, but that is not the topic of this thread. On the contrary, I am asking about the gifts as they are referenced in Scripture.

they do not discern between the leaders of the Church and the laity.

Do you think that there must be a clear distinction between the ordained, and the laity with regard to receiving the gifts?

this is protestantism at best. [/qutoe]

Do you believe that Agabus, and the four daughters of Philip were “protestants at their best”?

Acts 21:[8] On the morrow we departed and came to Caesare’a; and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.
[9] And he had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.
[10] While we were staying for some days, a prophet named Ag’abus came down from Judea.
[11] And coming to us he took Paul’s girdle and bound his own feet and hands, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, `So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’”
wisdomseeker;7017004:

no surprise to me that Catholics would think just like protestants, since they got this idea from protestants who denies that the Church even exists let alone leaders of the Church.
if one digs deep into the teachings of this so called charismatics, one would understand what is really behind of all this.

Ok, so it seems that you deny that any authentic charismatic gifts are exercised by the layperson, is that right?

 

[anjoh66]

The authentic gifts from the Holy Spirit is for everyone, laity and clerics alike, thats very clear from the scriptures.