What do you think of the charismatic gifts of Pentecost?

[Melchior_1]

hmmm… interesting… here, food for thought. messianicgentiles.blogspot.com/2007/06/slain-in-spirit-demonic-phenomina.html

One poster stated it [charismatic prayer] wasn’t about anyone else in the room, it was between the Spirit and them. See how you sever the priesthood out of the Church at that point? Our priests are granted faculties to grant the infinite excess grace from Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in the form of the 7! sacraments. By stating that you can cut out Apostolic Authority to confer the sacraments by which you receive grace is to cease being Catholic.

No one is saying that at all, and I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. That’s like me saying you’re cutting out the Priesthood by praying at home by your lonesome because it’s a conversation between you and God.

 

[FirstCalled]

I was participating in a thread about the gift of tongues, and found myself surprised by the hostility many Catholics have to these gifts, which are clearly the birthright of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Do traditional Catholics believe as some of the Baptists do that the gifts written about in the NT and the early fathers have ceased?

Can you comment about these two verses?

1 Cor. 14.39 - Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Thes 5:19-21 - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Thank you for your feedback.

To go back to the beginning since you stated we were OT I will state: I don’t doubt the legitimacy of that which is written in scripture. I do scrutinize the translation, and would follow traditional bishops teachings over time for the interpretation of all scripture. If we’re talking about the early Church, sure, they had many gifts. But I think that why you encountered hostility was in regards to the MODERN movement known as the Charismatic Movement, a big promoter being the Life in the Spirit. The reasons I have stated already.
The emphasis on this prayer experience is to feel, but are taking away your ability to think, to reason.

 

[guanophore]

One has to read between the lines since it is hard to understand what is being said.

I don’t think so. I think it is quite plain and straightforward. I think you don’t want to accept it for what it says because you harbor such animosity toward all the abuses that have taken place.

all i know is that our holy father is in distress with what is going on within the Church.

Really? Has he shared his “distress with you privatly”, or is that part of what you read between the lines?

of course the Vatican is not going to criticeze a movement that have millions of people adhered to it.

Hogwash. Our beloved German Sheperd has not shrunk from any criticism when it is warranted. Contrary to what you believe, he has publicly stated that he would rather see a smaller, but more pure church. If he believed as you do about the charismatic gifts of Pentecost, he would certainly come out just as strongly as he has in all the other areas that are a departure from the faith. I think you are not giving him enough credit.

remember that Church in NY full of gay people? what has the Vatican done about it?

The pastoral actions are private, so we may never know. What do you want to see them do? Public floggings?

in brazil there is a TV chanel named New Song, this chanel hardly speak of the CC. the founder is known to teach heresies. the most famous priest on this chanel has millions of followers, he wrote a book and in his book, he basically denies the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the resurection of Christ. he has been a scandal to the Church, but he has so many followers that the bishop never said nothing against him and neither does the Vatican. instead the Vatican has aproved of the this chanel. go figure.

I know JP II was distressed about this going on in Brazil. We don’t know what the Vatican and the Bishops have done, since it is not made public. I do think we need to pray for them, that they may uphold the Teachings of the Apostles with integrity and courage.

The root of such departures from the faith is spiritual, and requires spiritual warfare.

However, that is not the topic of this thread either.

 

[FirstCalled]

No one is saying that at all, and I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. That’s like me saying you’re cutting out the Priesthood by praying at home by your lonesome because it’s a conversation between you and God.

That’s exactly what I read, we see the same thing in two different ways.

 

[Melchior_1]

Bold is mine.

St. Pius X was actually a professed Franciscan. He joined the Brothers and Sisters of Penance as a very young man. Went through the entire formatioin program: postulancy, novitiate and temporary profession, and then made perpetual profession as a Franciscans.

Today, the Brothers and Sisters of Penance are better known as the Secular Franciscans. The name was changed in the USA to avoid the confusion between this order and the friars and nuns.

St. Francis founded three orders. They are real orders, each with a canonical status in the Church. The third order that he founder, was the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, to which Pius X belonged until his death. They are not a pius society. They are a real order with a superior general, just like the friars. They have a rule and constitutions that is approved by the Holy See. They have a general council and a mother house in Rome. They are divided into regions, just as we are. Their government is very similar to our own.

The difference between them and us is that we are consecrated religious and they are consecrated secular men and women. Pius X was a consecrated secular man. He joined them, because he was not called to be a friar, but was called to live the Gospel in the same manner as St. Francis, while remaining in the secular world as a secular priest. Under his papl robes, he wore the habit of the order. He practiced the disciplines of the order in his private life and in the privacy of his home, including observing the three lents that we observe, obedience to the superior general of his order, the simplicity of life required of them, and the service to the poor. He also participated in community life, as does every Secular Franciscan. He was attached to the local fraternity where he lived. These fraternities gather several times a month to pray, do ministry together, share common life and do on-going formation in Franciscan spirituality. Pius was very faithful to all of this. When he became pope, his duties were such that he was less able to gather with the fraternity. But he has an interesting way of getting aroiund that. He would invite the brothers and sisters to spend time with him as often as possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for sharing this Brother JR. I knew he was a member but had no idea he was that involved.

 

[Melchior_1]

That’s exactly what I read, we see the same thing in two different ways.

Can you break it down why you feel the Priesthood is being cut off? I mean, I can provide personal examples in my city of charismatic Catholic embracing the Sacraments and also provide documentation from the Companions of the Cross, an Order which is quite charismatic and highly orthodox.

 

[guanophore]

i am very surprised that you like so many protestants use this verse to justify what you are doing.

What exactly did you think I was doing?

Do you ever have any dreams?

Do you think that God ever speaks to humans anymore through dreams and visions?

did you read the rest of the Scriptures? this has been fullfiled according to St Peter at the Pentecost day. the Apostles in the upper room.

Yes, I have read the rest of the Scriptures, and continue to do so daily. I have not been able to find any Scriptures that would indicate the power Jesus poured out on HIs Church at Pentecost is no longer needed.

And those scriptures also tell me that dreams and visions continued long after Pentecost.

Is this your answer to the OP? You believe the prophesies were fulfilled in the upper room, and that the charismatic gifts experienced by the Apostles are no longer valid?

 

[JReducation]

As far as Brother JR and St. Francis, I can’t find any evidence that he did, some here-say by website who speculate that he did but I can find now writing to document it other than people saying he did, offering nothing to base it on.
.

There are many things about St. Francis that you will never find in the public domain for two reasons.

1. Some documents are very old and fragile. They are kept in the Franciscan archives, where they are not harmed.
2. There are other documents and writings that are for the friars only. Even then, many of these are only available to scholars on Franciscan Theology and Franciscan History. This has been done very deliberately since St. Bonaventure became the Superior General. He ordered many documents to be taken out of circulation for fear of heresies and fear of damaging St. Francis’ good name. Bonaventure actually dictated two official biographies on St. Francis using the early sources. But he edited many of those early sources. The entire documents were stored away, under his orders. The copies that are available for public reading are not complete. They are the edited versions. Other documents, Bonaventure ordered that they be burned. Many pieces of information about our Father was handed down to us by word of mouth and have remained that way, since no superior general has ever retracted Bonaventure’s censorship of what can be published in writing and what can be made available to non friars who are studying the life of our Father.

If you go through our formation program, you will learn much about our Father that is not found in the bookstores or online. And if you become a friar and get permission to become a Franciscan scholar, you can actually read some of the letters, memoirs, and early biographies that still exist in the archives. Much of what we get during our formation years is handed down to us by those friars who have been given the privilege to read these documents and make notes for themselves.

As I said, there were good reasons to protect these documents, age is one of them and avoiding misunderstanding was another. But in the archives there are hundreds of thousands of pages about our Father written by his contemporaries and the second generation Franciscans. That’s how we know that he manifested the gifts that have come to be known as the Charismatic Gifts. They are mentioned in these documents. The term Charismatic is a revival of a very ancient term, which was not in use during the 13th century. But the other terms, such as tongues, healing, prophecy and so forth were known to them. They do not speak about these gifts as charismatic. They speak about them individually, usually in anecdotes, such as “This happened when . . .” or “We saw this . . .” or "We heard this . . . "

I hope that helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[guanophore]

I am puzzled as to why you seem to tend towards a negative generalization on modern charismatic gifts/ movements when the official Church stance is the opposite. I grant that there may be some abuses or aberrances, but these should not be definitive. As long as the gifts are used to build-up Christ’s church, then we should welcome them.

As far as I can tell, Wisdom has never seen these gifts used in a postivive and appropriate manner, and has witnessed a great deal of abuse and misuse.

This thread, though, is not about “movements”.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I was participating in a thread about the gift of tongues, and found myself surprised by the hostility many Catholics have to these gifts, which are clearly the birthright of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Do traditional Catholics believe as some of the Baptists do that the gifts written about in the NT and the early fathers have ceased?

Can you comment about these two verses?

1 Cor. 14.39 - Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

1 Thes 5:19-21 - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. Test everything. Hold on to the good.

Thank you for your feedback.

I personally do not deny the gifts of the Holy Ghost in glossolalia (I think that is the spelling), but in my humble opinion it is not a gift which should be sought since we do not and cannot know that it is indeed the Holy Ghost we are in contact with. Opening oneself so vulnerably to the spirit realm is dangerous at best, especially when one does not know what one is doing. Anything could be contacting you, and as St. Ignatius Loyola points out, there are certain rules when discerning the spirits and we should remain cognizant of them. With other avenues of wisdom and piety available, I am unclear as to why one would need to pursue so mysterious and uncertain a spiritual path.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

There are posters here who have crossed the line of charity and are harrassing other posters. If you do not believe or if you believe, state you point and leave it at that. If you continue to try to discredit each other, I will close the thread and issue suspensions. End of story.

Thomas Casey
Moderator

 

[guanophore]

So you would suggest going to a seminar where someone can tell you how to best receive the Holy Spirit?

The purpose of the LITS Seminar is to educate people in the meaning of baptism and confirmation, and to assist them to be properly disposed to receive all that Jesus has to give them. The Apostle teaches us “earnestly desire the best gifts”. How is this done?

 Sounds just a tad suspicious to me.

Why would you be suspicious of catechesis? Do you think there is something innately wrong with someone telling you how to best receive the HS?

I have been researching the Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila. She spends the bulk of the writing instructing in how best to receive the HS. It does not make me suspicious. Do you think I should be?

I mean, the Holy Spirit is pretty powerful and I doubt that you being docile to him is going to make much of a difference one way or another.

I think the opposite is true, here. I think that God gives the HS to those who ask, seek, and knock, and that the vast majority of modern American Catholics do NOT walk in the power of the HS because they never learned HOW!

Yes, the HS is powerful, but it is absolutly essential that we be docile to Him. We are to be as newborn babes, longing for the milk.

He is going to come upon you if He wills it. Not because you beg Him to or order Him to as many in the movement apparently do.

God made us in His likeness and image, and He is Love. In HIs Love, He gives us the freedom to harden our hearts against Him. He gives us the frreedom to ignore HIm, or to push HIm out of our lives.

I agree it is not necessry to “beg”, since it is His good pleasure to give us the Kingdom, but Scripture is also clear that His grace must meet with our faith in order to efficacious.

 

[guanophore]

I don’t doubt the legitimacy of that which is written in scripture. I do scrutinize the translation, and would follow traditional bishops teachings over time for the interpretation of all scripture.

Does this lead you to the conclusion that the charismata described in the NT are no longer needed today?

If we’re talking about the early Church, sure, they had many gifts. But I think that why you encountered hostility was in regards to the MODERN movement known as the Charismatic Movement, a big promoter being the Life in the Spirit.

Yes, I followed a link that had so much misinformation and outright deception about the Life in the Spirit Seminar by a Catholic Priest that I had to go back and make sure I was not on a Protestant anti-Catholic site. I have never seen a Catholic write so many lies about Catholics!

The reasons I have stated already.

The emphasis on this prayer experience is to feel, but are taking away your ability to think, to reason.

I think this is simply a misunderstanding. God created us with emotions, and having emotion contained in our spiritual experience does not mean that they are the emphasis, or that they are the foundation. Emotions do not need to be eliminated. I am glad you brought this point, though because it does address my question in the OP, and was something I had not considered. People avoid the Spirit filled life because they are avoiding their own emotions!

Ecstatic prayer experiences don’t take away the ability to think or reason. They place a person in a state where their reason is not needed at the time.

 

[po18guy]

So you would suggest going to a seminar where someone can tell you how to best receive the Holy Spirit? Sounds just a tad suspicious to me. I mean, the Holy Spirit is pretty powerful and I doubt that you being docile to him is going to make much of a difference one way or another. He is going to come upon you if He wills it. Not because you beg Him to or order Him to as many in the movement apparently do.

Not at all! The seminars inform you of the ‘forgotten’ member of the Trinity. They include testimony from others and prepare you to either receive or release charisms. You only attend if you desire a much deeper faith life, because, in similar manner to the Apostles, you will be changed. The seminars culminate with a Priest, perhaps your own, praying over you, calling upon the Holy Spirit to descend upon you in an epiclesis. Think of this: the Priest calls upon the Holy Spirit to make the gifts holy at the epiclesis at each and every mass, right? This is nothing new. The only difference is that you are the subject instead of bread and wine.

Now, there is a natural human hesitance to participate, just as is felt when one who has no faith is suddenly called upon to attend Church. It just strikes you as odd, or off-putting. There is a tightening in your gut. And this fear is what keeps many Catholics from realizing the depth and beauty of a very spiritual faith.

OK, the other thing that many Catholics make fun of is being “slain in the Spirit”, or “resting in the Spirit”. You’ve all seen Benny Hinn and his fakery. I tell you, once the Spirit comes upon you, you need no push to collapse - you go limp and others must catch you. You then receive the most sublime experience imaginable. It affects you at every level of your being. One man I have known for years suddenly burst out in a very ancient language. I know not what he said, he was speaking in a tongue, perhaps even Aramaic. He has not since done this - it was merely the manifestation of the Spirit.

All I can tell you is that I lost my fear of living my faith, of speaking my faith, of spreading my faith. It simply caught fire and there has been no looking back. At Adoration, I have had supernatural occurrences during prayer. At times, I can feel the Spirit’s presence and it almost takes my breath away. Unexplainable. Yet, all of it is a confirmation of the Spirit’s presence and power - a reminder that we exist in the natural, but transcend the natural when in prayer. And, not only to prayer, openness to the Spirit adds brilliance to every Sacrament.

Case in point: At the last charismatic function I attended, it was preached by the same priest who baptized me in the Spirit. There was Reconciliation, so after a morning of active praise and worship, I went. During my confession, I found my self disagreeing with - almost arguing with the Priest. I suddenly realized that I was actually arguing with God Himself through the Priest! During the absolution, the Holy Spirit began shaking me so strongly that the Priest reached out and took hold of me. He looked heavenward and said “O, Holy Spirit!” It was the most amazing and memorable Reconciliation of my life. I broke down and wept tears of joy, not even caring who saw me. And I could go on and on about such occurrences.

One sobering aspect of all this is that “to whom much is given, much is expected”. Expect to work harder at doing the Lord’s will in carrying out His plan for your life, as you will be changed. Just so you know, I do not normally attend charismatic functions, for the reason that it can appeal to the ego. I go occasionally for a spiritual tune-up and the rest takes care of itself.

Please ask yourself: What have you to lose by investigating a Life in the Spirit seminar? Only fear of a deeper relationship with your Creator.

 

[po18guy]

If we’re talking about the early Church, sure, they had many gifts. But I think that why you encountered hostility was in regards to the MODERN movement known as the Charismatic Movement, a big promoter being the Life in the Spirit. The reasons I have stated already.

Hypothetical: If you were Satan and you wanted to attack the Church, would you convince her members that the Spirit is no longer active or needed in believers? I certainly would.

The emphasis on this prayer experience is to feel, but are taking away your ability to think, to reason.

I beg to differ! Feeling is a part of it, because we do have senses for such. However, the focus is correctly not on you, but on becoming a tool that God can use to accomplish His will. Deny yourself. Pray more for others. Suffer for others. Be even more Christ-like in your faith life.

You have a very low opinion of the movement, perhaps based on your own bad experience. But, consider this: If you search out only the negatives in any movement, you can justify abstaining even from belief in God. This is one case where I believe that you really do not know what you are missing (in the best sense of the term).

 

[palmas855]

The purpose of the LITS Seminar is to educate people in the meaning of baptism and confirmation, and to assist them to be properly disposed to receive all that Jesus has to give them. The Apostle teaches us “earnestly desire the best gifts”. How is this done?

Why would you be suspicious of catechesis? Do you think there is something innately wrong with someone telling you how to best receive the HS?

I have been researching the Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila. She spends the bulk of the writing instructing in how best to receive the HS. It does not make me suspicious. Do you think I should be?

I think the opposite is true, here. I think that God gives the HS to those who ask, seek, and knock, and that the vast majority of modern American Catholics do NOT walk in the power of the HS because they never learned HOW!

Yes, the HS is powerful, but it is absolutly essential that we be docile to Him. We are to be as newborn babes, longing for the milk.

God made us in His likeness and image, and He is Love. In HIs Love, He gives us the freedom to harden our hearts against Him. He gives us the frreedom to ignore HIm, or to push HIm out of our lives.

I agree it is not necessry to “beg”, since it is His good pleasure to give us the Kingdom, but Scripture is also clear that His grace must meet with our faith in order to efficacious.

So essentially what you are saying is that without this second baptism, which is specifically for the reception of the Holy Spirit, one cannot receive or use the gifts that they have. Is that correct? I do have another question. Did St Teresa advocate a second baptism specifically for the reception of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands which is apparently required for it to occur?

Catechisis is I think essential as long as it is proper catechisis. For instance, this second baptism into the Holy Spirit is mentioned where in the Catechism of the Church? I would like to read exactly what the approved Catechism of the Church instructs us to do in order to receive these gifts. Not what someone with an agenda says, but exactly what the Catechism says about it.

 

[anjoh66]

You can certainly tell us of the growth of Catholicism in Sweden since V2, no?

Yes that is a fact, many people has converted from other denominations to CC and i think that is a result of the ecumenical work.

The Pastor of a famous denomination in sweden, Ulf Ekman is coming closer and closer to catholicism, from being a harsh enemy of Rome he now is a strong supporter and i think that it is just his pastoral role in his own denomination which keep him from taking the step fully.

 

[anjoh66]

I would venture to say that your experience will be one of two things. Either you will be ecstatic and convinced that you have been touched personally by the Holy Spirit in a unique way or you will be repulsed and sorry that you ever went.

There are very very very few people who go to these things and come away with a kind of “well it’s OK” kind of reaction. Most come away with very strong views about the experience.

I would give you one piece of advice from someone who has been there. Don’t let the people running the retreat cajole you into something by saying that you just aren’t trying hard enough or don’t want it enough. If it is going to happen it will happen no matter how hard you try or don’t try. Don’t give in to peer pressure as many have done.

I will have your advice in consideration, thanks.

 

[guanophore]

So essentially what you are saying is that without this second baptism, which is specifically for the reception of the Holy Spirit, one cannot receive or use the gifts that they have. Is that correct?

NO! I never said anything about any “second baptism”. This is one of the heresies that has resulted in the abuse of the gifts of the HS. The Apostles taught that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM, during which we are sealed in the HS. In the Latin rite, this has become separated over time from Confirmation, which is one of the sacraments of initiation. In the Eastern Rites, infants are baptized, communed, and sealed (confirmed) all at the same time, as this was how it was done in the early church. However the sacraments are administered, there is no “second” baptism.

We recieve all the gifts that God wants us to have when we are baptized. However, most people do not know what they are, or how to use them. It is like being given a wrapped package that most Catholics don’t unwrap.

I do have another question.  Did St Teresa advocate a second baptism specifically for the reception of the Holy Spirit and the laying on of hands which is apparently required for it to occur?

No, St. Teresa, as did all the Saints, received the Apostolic Faith, which teaches that there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM. The custom of calling the release of the power of Pentecost “another baptism” is inaccurate. It comes from the Teaching of John the Baptist, who preached that he baptized with water, but the Christ would baptise with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

Catechisis is I think essential as long as it is proper catechisis. For instance, this second baptism into the Holy Spirit is mentioned where in the Catechism of the Church?

Exactly.

I would like to read exactly what the approved Catechism of the Church instructs us to do in order to receive these gifts. Not what someone with an agenda says, but exactly what the Catechism says about it.

The Catechism is quite clear that we are sealed in the HS at baptism.

The Scripture and the Catechism, along with the teaching ofthe Holy Fathers is also clear that each person has been given charisms for the building up of the Body, and that it is our obligation to use these.

 

[Melchior_1]

“Baptism in the Spirit” is used for lack of a better term, really. There another term that is sometimes used but I forget what it is. Anyway, like Guan said, the gifts are all there but you need to unwrap them first. That’s why it can be such a powerful feeling and you see some reactions; someone gives you a good gift and you obviously might be a little excited.

The term might confuse some, put off others. But it by no means diminishes any Sacraments. As Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa (who is among other things a Franciscan Capuchin and the Preacher to the Papal Household), “baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to a sacrament…to the sacraments of Christian initiation. The baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation”.

That’s the Preacher to the Papal Household speaking, by the way.