What do you think of the charismatic gifts of Pentecost?

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I am going to attend a charismatic retreat this weekend held by Fr. Rufus Pereira.

I guess it will be very interesting and good food for thought.
 
So I take it you approve of this method of Charismatics within the Catholic Church. You believe that you can be trained in these gifts instead of given them?
They are gifts of the HS, but that does not mean that the recipients don’t need training. Clearly, those who had received the gifts in Corinth were in need of pastoral guidance, discipline, and firm exercise of authority to keep them from getting out of hand.

Do you think all those persons who were using the gifts were ordained?

Is there some reason that a person should not be trained in how to use a gift?
 
Yes I do approve of the Charismatic movement, one may say I’m an active participant. I do not believe you can be “trained” in the gifts though. Who believes you can “train” prophecy? I mean, really. That’s just nonsense.
Why is that nonsense? Are we not instructed to test everything, and only hold fast to what is true? Are you saying that it is not possible for a person to grow in wisdom, or be trained in discernment?

Remember when Samuel was in the Temple as a young boy, and God kept calling to him? finally the old priest realized what was going on, and taught Samuel how to respond.

It is not the gift that is “trained” but the use of it. clearly, Corinthians demonstrates misuse of the gifts, and has very specific instruction on how to prevent the abuses.
 
Why is that nonsense? Are we not instructed to test everything, and only hold fast to what is true? Are you saying that it is not possible for a person to grow in wisdom, or be trained in discernment?

Remember when Samuel was in the Temple as a young boy, and God kept calling to him? finally the old priest realized what was going on, and taught Samuel how to respond.

It is not the gift that is “trained” but the use of it. clearly, Corinthians demonstrates misuse of the gifts, and has very specific instruction on how to prevent the abuses.
I’m not saying that at all. The kind of “training” he was referring to is nonsense, as it was centered on the self. If I’m not mistaken he was trying to reference that if people try hard enough they can claim these gifts for themselves, which isn’t true; only the Holy Spirit determines who gets what gifts.

The “training” you are referring to is rooted in God and the Holy Scriptures, and is centered on Him. It makes the difference. The Holy Spirit gives you the gifts, you can run with them as needed. And you are correct, Corinthians does speak of preventing misuse, which is a form of training. Music, writing, teaching, are all examples of charisms which is given from God, yet are ones which could get better with time and practice.

Basically, I agree with you totally but still maintain what I said earlier is valid. Those who think they can “train” themselves to have a gift and leave out God is nonsense. Those who receive a gift and work with God to refine it is good.

If you’re going to level grind, you need to acquire the skills first (yes, that’s a MMORPG reference).
 
Originally Posted by Willy Jose
*For our faithful education, kindly substantiate, and cite the official and standing Church pronouncements which make the sweeping generalization that “praying in toungues…this is not prayer…modern Charismatic movement…endangers one’s soul…”.

Thank you.
*

Yes, I clicked and listened to the link, thank you. Nice sermon but it does not answer my question. I asked you to cite “the official and standing Church pronouncements” that make a “sweeping generalization” on the modern Charismatic movement. A recorded sermon (even delivered excellently as it were) from an unnamed cleric does not count. We do understand what the Magisterium means don’t we. Of course we are free to have our own opinions and feelings on the subject, but tell us about the official Church posture on Charismatic movements.
One has to read between the lines since it is hard to understand what is being said. all i know is that our holy father is in distress with what is going on within the Church. of course the Vatican is not going to criticeze a movement that have millions of people adhered to it. remember that Church in NY full of gay people? what has the Vatican done about it? in brazil there is a TV chanel named New Song, this chanel hardly speak of the CC. the founder is known to teach heresies. the most famous priest on this chanel has millions of followers, he wrote a book and in his book, he basically denies the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the resurection of Christ. he has been a scandal to the Church, but he has so many followers that the bishop never said nothing against him and neither does the Vatican. instead the Vatican has aproved of the this chanel. go figure.
 
Please Wisdom, I know you have a lot of issues around these things, but try to stay on topic.

The question in the OP was not about any of these things you are raving about here.

Should I take this to mean that, if a Catholic has a legitimate gift, they would not share it in the company of our separated brethren?

What type of “certification” would you consider acceptable?

Do you not think that God has the power to pour out his spirit upon all flesh? do you think that God is confined to the clergy?

Acts.2
[17] `And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;


Do you believe that an “authentic” gift would only come through the laying on of hands by a priest or a bishop?

Do you think Hildegard of Bingen did not have any visions until hands were laid upon her by a priest?
i am very surprised that you like so many protestants use this verse to justify what you are doing.
did you read the rest of the Scriptures? this has been fullfiled according to St Peter at the Pentecost day. the Apostles in the upper room.
 
One has to read between the lines since it is hard to understand what is being said.
No it isn’t, you’re just making it that way for yourself. You’ve been given several documents and examples that prove this is valid.
all i know is that our holy father is in distress with what is going on within the Church.
Can you blame him? I mean, with schismatic groups and Orders that have no canonical status running around it’d be hard for him not to get discouraged.
of course the Vatican is not going to criticeze a movement that have millions of people adhered to it.
They’ve done it before during a period called “the Reformation”. They’ve also done it to “liberal”, “traditional”, and “charismatic” movements.
remember that Church in NY full of gay people? what has the Vatican done about it?
The parish in question is a Jesuit parish. There are certain procedures for dealing with parishes run by an Order different than other parishes. Just because nothing is being said about it does not mean nothing is being done.
in brazil there is a TV chanel named New Song, this chanel hardly speak of the CC. the founder is known to teach heresies. the most famous priest on this chanel has millions of followers, he wrote a book and in his book, he basically denies the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the resurection of Christ. he has been a scandal to the Church, but he has so many followers that the bishop never said nothing against him and neither does the Vatican. instead the Vatican has aproved of the this chanel. go figure.
See above. And have they praised the channel in public? If so provide proof,
 
i am very surprised that you like so many protestants use this verse to justify what you are doing.
did you read the rest of the Scriptures? this has been fullfiled according to St Peter at the Pentecost day. the Apostles in the upper room.
So I guess all the Saints and Venerables who fit the criteria found in that Scripture are frauds? Or what are they?
 
all i know is that our holy father is in distress with what is going on within the Church. of course the Vatican is not going to criticeze a movement that have millions of people adhered to it.
In my understanding, the Pope and the Vatican (via the Roman Curia) is essentially the same. If the Church had an informal policy of relegating sound teaching in favor of plurality, then it would have relented long ago to popularly relativist views on contraception, abortion, women’s ordination and the like. There is definitely millions more in those areas. Your postulation simply has no sound basis.

I am puzzled as to why you seem to tend towards a negative generalization on modern charismatic gifts/ movements when the official Church stance is the opposite. I grant that there may be some abuses or aberrances, but these should not be definitive. As long as the gifts are used to build-up Christ’s church, then we should welcome them.
 
Mysticism is just another word for gifts of the Spirit.

zenit.org/article-30216?l=english

ROME, SEPT. 1, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Mysticism is not just a secondary aspect of theology, but is something that all people are called to, says Father Luigi Borriello.

The Carmelite priest knows about mystics: Not only does his Carmelite family claim many in its history, such as St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross (Edith Stein), but he is also co-director of the “Dictionary of Mysticism” of the Vatican Publishing House.

Father Borriello is a consultor of various Vatican dicasteries and a theology professor at numerous universities in Rome.

He spoke with ZENIT about the mystical experience, and stressed the importance of clarifying what Christian mysticism is, at a time when many religions are interested in this field.

ZENIT: Mystics are famous for being from another world, but you say this is not so.

Father Borriello: Mystics are men and women of this world.

Today there is a tendency to trivialize mysticism, as if it were something of another world, and that it has nothing to do with us. But it isn’t so. Moreover, the mystics’ experience fits in the Church and is related to faith, not foreign to it.

Mystical experience cannot be separated from faith; it can only take place in it. Mystical experience calls for a mystical theology, a reflection whose basis is mysticism itself.

Today there is a persistence of the mystical event. It is part of the post-modern society. This universal mystical richness is rediscovered in Western and Eastern religiosity. And Eastern mysticism has exercised great fascination in the West.

Also in the present climate of crisis, of confusion and syncretism, there is a temptation to confuse the authentic nature of mysticism with New Age or Next Age realities.

Religion and mysticism are different realities, and it is necessary to make distinctions.

ZENIT: In fact, many seek in the East what Christian mysticism already contains.

Father Borriello: Indeed. It’s a paradox.

Many Christians don’t know the wealth of their own mystical tradition and they turn to the East, seeking what is in the interior of that tradition.

Moreover, it is important to recall that there is a mystagogy in all mystical experience: You can also experience this as the other does.

Although the mystic is reserved, what he says is for others.

In this sense we must say to ourselves that we are all called to sanctity and to mysticism. And the mystical experience is a call to witness.

ZENIT: Christian mysticism always recognizes the “You” of God.

Father Borriello: Yes, it isn’t dissolution; it is encounter.

Christian mysticism is characterized by the Incarnation, which is always a gift; it isn’t something that the human being gains.

In it, the “You,” the duality of a God who gives himself and the man who receives, though there is fusion, always recognizes the other.

We are speaking of duality in unity, as a spiritual marriage. The two always recognize one another; they are not confused; they keep their own identity.

ZENIT: Would it be appropriate to desire a mystical experience?

Father Borriello: It is not a question of asking for it but of receiving it when it comes, if it comes.

Experience is a category that is used in all the disciplines. I prefer to speak of mystical experience; it is something that God gives to man who receives it passively, and, in fact, makes an effort on receiving it.

It is what John of the Cross calls "the night."There is a collaboration in the acceptance, but the initiative is always God’s, who makes himself known. And the greatest revelation takes place in Jesus Christ.

Hence, mystical experience is always Christ-centered and Trinitarian. And it is revealed only gratuitously, without our merits.
 
I am going to attend a charismatic retreat this weekend held by Fr. Rufus Pereira.

I guess it will be very interesting and good food for thought.
You can certainly tell us of the growth of Catholicism in Sweden since V2, no?
 
I am going to attend a charismatic retreat this weekend held by Fr. Rufus Pereira.

I guess it will be very interesting and good food for thought.
I would venture to say that your experience will be one of two things. Either you will be ecstatic and convinced that you have been touched personally by the Holy Spirit in a unique way or you will be repulsed and sorry that you ever went.

There are very very very few people who go to these things and come away with a kind of “well it’s OK” kind of reaction. Most come away with very strong views about the experience.

I would give you one piece of advice from someone who has been there. Don’t let the people running the retreat cajole you into something by saying that you just aren’t trying hard enough or don’t want it enough. If it is going to happen it will happen no matter how hard you try or don’t try. Don’t give in to peer pressure as many have done.
 
I would venture to say that your experience will be one of two things. Either you will be ecstatic and convinced that you have been touched personally by the Holy Spirit in a unique way or you will be repulsed and sorry that you ever went.

There are very very very few people who go to these things and come away with a kind of “well it’s OK” kind of reaction. Most come away with very strong views about the experience.

I would give you one piece of advice from someone who has been there. Don’t let the people running the retreat cajole you into something by saying that you just aren’t trying hard enough or don’t want it enough. If it is going to happen it will happen no matter how hard you try or don’t try. Don’t give in to peer pressure as many have done.
Before attending a charismatic event, I participated in a couple of “Life in the Spirit” seminars. The first had a profound impact on my faith life. The change and improvement is almost indescribable. When I decided to become docile to the Holy Spirit, I allowed my heart to be available to Him and His gifts were released when the Priest laid hands on me. It had nothing to do with those around me, but was strictly between the Spirit and I.

I would suggest the spiritual preparation of attending a “Life in the Spirit” seminar prior to involvement in a charismatic event. Once my gifts were released, I had a greater ability to test the spirits.
 
remember that Church in NY full of gay people? what has the Vatican done about it? in brazil there is a TV chanel named New Song, this chanel hardly speak of the CC. the founder is known to teach heresies. the most famous priest on this chanel has millions of followers, he wrote a book and in his book, he basically denies the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and the resurection of Christ. he has been a scandal to the Church, but he has so many followers that the bishop never said nothing against him and neither does the Vatican. instead the Vatican has aproved of the this chanel. go figure.
Please provide some links for your allegations.

As to the Spirit and His gifts, here is some Church teaching:

CCC684 Through his grace, the Holy Spirit is the first to awaken faith in us and to communicate to us the new life…

CCC686 The Holy Spirit is at work with the Father and the Son from the beginning to the completion of the plan for our salvation. But in these “end times,” ushered in by the Son’s redeeming Incarnation, the Spirit is revealed and given, recognized and welcomed as a person. Now can this divine plan, accomplished in Christ, the firstborn and head of the new creation, be embodied in mankind by the outpouring of the Spirit: as the Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

CCC732 On that day, the Holy Trinity is fully revealed. Since that day, the Kingdom announced by Christ has been open to those who believe in him: in the humility of the flesh and in faith, they already share in the communion of the Holy Trinity. By his coming, which never ceases, the Holy Spirit causes the world to enter into the “last days,” the time of the Church, the Kingdom already inherited though not yet consummated.

You do realize that charisms must be discerned, right? We are not to accept alleged spiritual manifestations blindly:

CCC801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”

Jesus said “by their fruits you shall know them” (Matthew 7:15-20)

CCC736 By this power of the Spirit, God’s children can bear much fruit. He who has grafted us onto the true vine will make us bear "the fruit of the Spirit: . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."129 “We live by the Spirit”; the more we renounce ourselves, the more we “walk by the Spirit.”

Do not fall into the trap of condemning the rule because of the exception. You belong to the Church with authority to test the spirits. If you do not like the charismatic movement, at least understand that their goal is true, correct and approved. Do they fail at times? Of course - we all do.

Ask yourself: Do you view as “normal” those Catholics who faithfully attend, but never show true joy, never spend holy hours, never pray a Rosary? If so, then don’t condemn those who are inebriated by the Holy Spirit. You might have a problem with perception, IMO.
 
Before attending a charismatic event, I participated in a couple of “Life in the Spirit” seminars. The first had a profound impact on my faith life. The change and improvement is almost indescribable. When I decided to become docile to the Holy Spirit, I allowed my heart to be available to Him and His gifts were released when the Priest laid hands on me. It had nothing to do with those around me, but was strictly between the Spirit and I.

I would suggest the spiritual preparation of attending a “Life in the Spirit” seminar prior to involvement in a charismatic event. Once my gifts were released, I had a greater ability to test the spirits.
So you would suggest going to a seminar where someone can tell you how to best receive the Holy Spirit? Sounds just a tad suspicious to me. I mean, the Holy Spirit is pretty powerful and I doubt that you being docile to him is going to make much of a difference one way or another. He is going to come upon you if He wills it. Not because you beg Him to or order Him to as many in the movement apparently do.
 
Basically, I agree with you totally but still maintain what I said earlier is valid. Those who think they can “train” themselves to have a gift and leave out God is nonsense. Those who receive a gift and work with God to refine it is good.
Thanks for clarifying this. I see that we are in agreement.
 
hmmm… interesting… here, food for thought. messianicgentiles.blogspot.com/2007/06/slain-in-spirit-demonic-phenomina.html

One poster stated it [charismatic prayer] wasn’t about anyone else in the room, it was between the Spirit and them. See how you sever the priesthood out of the Church at that point? Our priests are granted faculties to grant the infinite excess grace from Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in the form of the 7! sacraments. By stating that you can cut out Apostolic Authority to confer the sacraments by which you receive grace is to cease being Catholic.
 
Oh really?

In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God, whom also the apostle terms “spiritual,” they being spiritual because they partake of the Spirit, and not because their flesh has been stripped off and taken away, and because they have become purely spiritual.

That seems pretty clear to me.

It seems as if St. Francis exhibited some of these gifts, and it appears his Order has for some time.

Wasn’t Saint Pius X influenced by Franciscan spirituality?
Bold is mine.

St. Pius X was actually a professed Franciscan. He joined the Brothers and Sisters of Penance as a very young man. Went through the entire formatioin program: postulancy, novitiate and temporary profession, and then made perpetual profession as a Franciscans.

Today, the Brothers and Sisters of Penance are better known as the Secular Franciscans. The name was changed in the USA to avoid the confusion between this order and the friars and nuns.

St. Francis founded three orders. They are real orders, each with a canonical status in the Church. The third order that he founder, was the Brothers and Sisters of Penance, to which Pius X belonged until his death. They are not a pius society. They are a real order with a superior general, just like the friars. They have a rule and constitutions that is approved by the Holy See. They have a general council and a mother house in Rome. They are divided into regions, just as we are. Their government is very similar to our own.

The difference between them and us is that we are consecrated religious and they are consecrated secular men and women. Pius X was a consecrated secular man. He joined them, because he was not called to be a friar, but was called to live the Gospel in the same manner as St. Francis, while remaining in the secular world as a secular priest. Under his papl robes, he wore the habit of the order. He practiced the disciplines of the order in his private life and in the privacy of his home, including observing the three lents that we observe, obedience to the superior general of his order, the simplicity of life required of them, and the service to the poor. He also participated in community life, as does every Secular Franciscan. He was attached to the local fraternity where he lived. These fraternities gather several times a month to pray, do ministry together, share common life and do on-going formation in Franciscan spirituality. Pius was very faithful to all of this. When he became pope, his duties were such that he was less able to gather with the fraternity. But he has an interesting way of getting aroiund that. He would invite the brothers and sisters to spend time with him as often as possible.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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