What do you think of the charismatic gifts of Pentecost?

[EnchantedEve]

I don’t doubt that you consider authentic gifts as good, but you have made several references to "supposed’ gifts, which leaves the impression you think some of these manifestations are not good, or not authentic (or both more likely).

Are you familiar with the Life in the Spirit Seminar, and if so, do you consider that a “systematic way” of seeking the gifts?

Yes. My understanding about the LISS was that it is seeking to educate the faithful, so that if these things occur, they will recognize them.

Sorry my post was a little unclear, teaches me not to post before bed!

I use the word “supposed” to try and retain some degree of objectivity. I cannot speak with certainty on those things which I have no certainty. It is not intended as a slight.

The idea behind LISS is good, even commendable, to teach people about the discernment of the Holy Ghost, and how to go about it. Unfortunately, based on what I have observed, they often produce 2 mixed results: 1) A certain uniformity of expectation, which sometimes gives people the false impression they are praying “wrong.” I have seen heretics make this claim, of praying “wrong,” “badly,” or even in a “boring” way. 2) They are often not just teaching, but advocating the charismatic gifts not only as a good to be sought, but one which one should actively seek to attain, like a trophy at the end of an athletic competition. I guess this should be expected to a degree, but again, the faithful can get the wrong impression that this the direction your prayer life SHOULD move in, not just COULD. If people feel that their prayer life is calling them to experience the charisms, then a setting which gives them the tools to do it is good. But a setting in which people of all prayer levels are invited to just come and take it as they get it I feel could just be setting up people for a spiritual fall. I do not mind sounding elitist when I say that though the gifts of the Holy Ghost are open to all, it is not wise that all should seek them, unless they do so properly disposed, as you point out, and have both feet firmly planted on the spiritual ground. Otherwise, these gifts could prove a distraction, even a tease, from finding genuine spiritual advancement.

 

[EnchantedEve]

I wonder if it might be helpful to distinguish between “calling up” the gifts, as opposed to “calling up” the HS. If all of the gifts we need are sealed within us at baptism, then it is more a matter of unwrapping and using what has been placed within us. To me, this is quite different than have the HS at our beck and call like some kind of porter. Does that make sense?

I am thinking that this condition should not be “rare indeed”, but normative for the Christian, just as it is demonstrated in the NT. I think this is what it means to be baptized in with fire and power.

I think there is an important distinction that must be made in order for our skeptical traditional brethren to be reached on this matter. This phrase “the use of the Holy Spirit” may come across sounding impious and arrogant. I hope to hear from some more traditional Catholics on this point.

!

I think you are starting to feel our pain, guanaphore! Yes, the idea of “summoning the Holy Ghost” sounds odd to traditional ears, and even bordering on blasphemy in some cases.

However, your explication of the matter as a revealing of the gifts within, etc. is beautiful, and I agree whole-heartedly. I think we are starting to find common understanding here, although we may agree to disagree about how common, even ideally, these gifts would be in practice. A strong charismatic faith rooted in Tradition, and not novelty, may be the key to renewal. The history is there, like in the liturgical movement, and perhaps it merits a second look.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with your theory. Just as we are often told we are all potential saints, I believe the Gifts of the Holy Ghost abide in us always, and the exist in potentiality, even to a degree that I would say they are eager to manifest.

Yes, this makes sense. I love when Mother Angelica says on EWTN “we are all called to be saints - don’t miss the opportunity”.

I have read of the use of these gifts in the immature believer, but generally, as in the St. Paul's example, as a cautionary and even as a short-lived tale. ... An increased love of the Holy Ghost I presume would  have the same results.

Clearly all graces are intended to lead us to maturity in Christ.

However, I am still troubled by the relative consistancy and even uniformity of how the charismatic gifts manifest in the movement. I would expect that the Holy Ghost would be less consistant in His manifestation (custom made, perhaps?) and I am tempted to believe, especially in heretical sects, that we are not always seeing the Holy Ghost at work.

Yes, this cannot be denied. I think the lack of mature discernment and proper shepherding clearly results in dangerous exposure to spiritual forces from a variety of sources.

As po18 recommended, speaking to a priest or experienced spiritual director can be a great help in discerning the Holy Ghost, and Ignatian retreats can be a boon as well. St. Ignatius Loyola wrote a book called "Rules in Discerning the Spirits," which may be good to acquire and study in a charismatic study group.

Thanks! I will add this to my reading list.

Having a personal spiritual guide can often be more helpful and productive in safely seeking the Holy Ghost then trying to do it, or learn to do it, in the more common group setting, where sprititual anticipation and excessive enthusiasm can lead to uncertain and even heterodox approaches.

Yes.

I personally find the prayer "Come, Holy Ghost," and the Chaplets of the Holy Ghost and the Precious Blood to be wonderful sources of ecstatic meditation.

This is the prayer that is used by my group, perhaps because the members are older, and are more traditional Catholics.

 

[JReducation]

Someone posted “quality control” and I thought it was a funny way of saying this. The best reply that I can give to this is that we should never be afraid of God and his spontaneity. The proof is always in the fruit. This is how the Church judges all charisms, whether it’s the gifts fo the Holy Spirit or the charism of a new religious order. She looks at several things: sustainability, does this charism survive? Numbers, do the number of the faifhful grow? Fruit, does it produce an increase in charity?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[po18guy]

For this reason, I have trouble understanding the “calling down” concept. It seems that there is no need to “call down” that which has already been sealed within us sacramentally. To me, it seems more like opening and releasing the gift that is already present and waiting.

Great point. It may be a calling up from within, or we may receive different gifts from above, or a different level of the same gift. All I know is that it works and it’s needed badly in today’s Church.

What do you say to those who claim it is an infiltration from Protestantism?

I ask, “And, just where did they get it from?”

That is one of the reasons I started this thread. I have heard Catholic say this, but it seems to directly contradict the Teachings in the Catechism and of the Holy Fathers.

This is the crisis of the Church: Poor catechesis resulting from poor teaching resulting from poor catechesis for decades. Does no one have a catechism any more?

I do think the gifts will cease, but not till Jesus comes for His Bride!

Amen!

I don’t think anyone (even the strongest nay-sayers) believe the Spirit is no longer needed.

Truthfully, I wonder…

I think they believe the charismatic gifts are not. I mean, if you think about it, the vast majority of Catholics have managed to get along without them just fine for centuries…

This is directly contrary to both scripture and the catechism! This is a symptom of the lukewarmness that will cause some to be spewed out of God’s mouth! God’s work is not done solely by the Holy Spirit, it is done by the Holy Spirit working through us.

Don’t most Catholics think this can happen without any charismata?

I pray not! Each time we speak of our faith, it is through the Holy Spirit. Each time we accomplish an act of charity, it is through the Holy Sprit. You can see why Fr. Andrew Apostoli (Head postulator of the cause for canonization of Bishop Fulton J. Sheen) speaks of the Holy Spirit as the forgotten member of the Trinity. This sense of ‘forgotteness’ is all too common in Catholicism.

I think that, when individuals are strong spiritually, they are more capable of building the Body. Specifically Scripture states that the gift of tongues strengthens the individual.

But, just look at what Saint Paul teaches about another of the gifts (1 Corinthians 14:1-5): “Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, he who prophesies speaks to men for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than he who speaks in tongues, unless some one interprets, so that the church may be edified.”

There is great misunderstanding about the gift of prophecy: it is not about predicting the future - it is about giving encouragement, calling to a deeper faith, and occasionally chastizing.

Our job remains that of educating the unaware that all the good we do is through the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, we can do nothing good. God did not promise that He Himself would come down to help. Oh, He comes to us alright, but not directly. Jesus did not say He Himself would come to us and assist - yes, He comes to us through the Eucharist, but He remains at God’s right hand. No, it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised us. The Spirit is with us now and desires to be with us and in us forever. He waits to work through the release of His gifts in each of us. Maybe Pentecost should be celebrated each month…

I wonder what it would look like if they overlapped! What would a traditional charismatic be like? I think the Apostles were…

Clearly, the Church requires all types of faithful Catholics, working together as gears mesh. When gears clash, work cannot be done. We are drastically different exactly because we each have received different gifts of the Holy Spirit - directly from Him. As to our differences, Paul wrote: "The eye cannot say to the hand, ‘I have no need of you,’ nor again the head to the feet, ‘I have no need of you.’ (1 Corinthians 12:21) Thus, both traditionalists and charismatics are needed to make the Catholic picture complete. Traditionalists clearly exhibit, among other gifts, great Piety - a charism received directly from the Holy Spirit.

No Holy Spirit, no Church. It’s just that simple.

 

[guanophore]

I ask, “And, just where did they get it from?”

People say “it if the devil” or “they are just faking it - hysterics”.

There is great misunderstanding about the gift of prophecy: it is not about predicting the future - it is about giving encouragement, calling to a deeper faith, and occasionally chastizing.

I think of it as boldly speaking the truth of God into the present.

No Holy Spirit, no Church. It’s just that simple.

Great post po, thanks.

 

[po18guy]

People say “it if the devil” or “they are just faking it - hysterics”.

Who knows the hearts of those involved, except God? Man judges the exterior, while God judges the heart. 2,000 years ago, those who looked directly into Jesus’ eyes told Him that He cast out demons by the prince of demons. What we are combatting here is fallen human nature. It is ever so easy to criticize, but much more difficult to put forth effort and actually experience or investigate the charisms. I was in that camp uniti, in a moment of weakness, I made myself docile to the Holy Spirit. There has been no looking back.

 

[Layman]

I think of prophecy as predicting the future. That’s how that word is understood. It’s a good test of a false revelation: **did events not come pass as the prophet foretold? Then to heck with him, he is false.
**
**Heal the sick, cast our demons, prophesy truthfully or run them out of the parish, I say! **That’s how the Apostles got converts; they were dealing with people who had dealings with sorcerors every day - fine words wouldn’t have been enough.