What do you think of the Neocatechumenal Way?

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Why would the Pope endorse this movement:

Because the founders paraded the “fruits” of this movement in front of him, but they did not show him the core.

Behind closed doors they teach their followers that the Church stopped being Catholic around the fourth century.

That the Church has turned us into a bunch of pharisees bound by rules and laws. (This includes both the N.O. and Traditional masses).

They dislike Vat 1, but love Vat 2, since the environment created by Vat 2 allowed this movement to enter the Church and grow.

That only those that “walk the Way or el Camino” are saved (in the Lutheran view).

That Kiko is the new “prophet” sent by God to return the Church to the “Truth”.

While they are always going on pilgramages to march for this cause or that:
They are in no "way" Catholic.
 
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Ghosty:
It’s happened before. Not saying this group IS heresy, I don’t know anything more about them than what I’ve read here. It’s foolish to say that just because a pope supports a group that it isn’t heresy, however. We’ve had popes anathemized for supporting heretical groups, so it’s not unheard of.

God bless!
Really? When was this?
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Since I only attended day one of their seminar, I don’t remember that it was discussed. Their suggestion that the early church didn’t baptize infants made me skeptical of their orthodoxy. I presume that they just mispoke or phrased it poorly.
I was just reading the catechism on this (baptism)
**1252 The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on, and it is quite possible that, from the beginning of the apostolic preaching, when whole “households” received baptism, infants may also have been baptized.53
**

The footnote reads:
53 Cf. Acts 16:15, 33; 18:8; 1 Cor 1:16; CDF, instruction, Pastoralis actio: AAS 72 (1980) 1137-1156.
Try this tract on Infant Baptism and the Early Teachings of Infant Baptism.

I find it likely they didn’t misspeak, but rather spoke ignorantly. Correct them gently. Just think of all the good you can do, and can contribute to this. 😛 Think positive. :rotfl:

-Rob
 
Their “statutes” were approved “ad experimentum” until 2007.

But the statutes are only an outline of their “doctrine”.

Their “catechises” or the core of their doctrine has not been approved.
 
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Lazerlike42:
Really? When was this?
In the 600s. You can read about Pope Honorius I right here. He didn’t teach heresy himself, but he allowed it to continue with his blessing to one of the chief heretics. He was anathemized by a council after his death.

God bless!
 
It´s recognized by the Pope, at first, after I know a lot of catholics who are “kikos” and are wonderful people, wonderful families with a lot of children, they make many evangelization.Respect, the spirit of the organisation, many baptised people aren´t good catechized and they need a new rediscovering of the catholic faith, they began in a poor district of Madrid and now, they have a lot of seminaries, one million of people and helping catholics to be good catholics.
And I want to ask you, do you think that the Pope sponsored an heretical organisation who is a sect? And, if the answer is yes, why?
“recognized by the Pope” I’ve heard it so many times : it’s seem to be the only argument they have when people critizies the movement. I know some jehovah witnesses that are wonderful people…

To answer you’re question Franze :

This isn’t a real sect, but it is defenitly dangerous and similar to many sects…
The Pope know the theory, what Kiko wants the Pope to know…
But, in practice, there is a lot of secrets that harm people who simply want to be more active in their religion…

It’s sad to say, but the ones that are in the movement just can’t see how things are wrong ( see information on mental manipulation )

So, people who know the truth, should try to expose it to the Pope, that i’m sure will do something to help those people that have been fool… especially the children, that are forced to be part of this movement…

In fact, they pretend that they have THE only truth and only those who follow the way will be saved…

It means you and me, that go to church one times a week are doom to hell and are influenced by satan…

I could continue on and on…
 
Matteo_01 said:
“recognized by the Pope” I’ve heard it so many times : it’s seem to be the only argument they have when people critizies the movement. I know some jehovah witnesses that are wonderful people…

To answer you’re question Franze :

This isn’t a real sect, but it is defenitly dangerous and similar to many sects…
The Pope know the theory, what Kiko wants the Pope to know…
But, in practice, there is a lot of secrets that harm people who simply want to be more active in their religion…

It’s sad to say, but the ones that are in the movement just can’t see how things are wrong ( see information on mental manipulation )

So, people who know the truth, should try to expose it to the Pope, that i’m sure will do something to help those people that have been fool… especially the children, that are forced to be part of this movement…

In fact, they pretend that they have THE only truth and only those who follow the way will be saved…

It means you and me, that go to church one times a week are doom to hell and are influenced by satan…

I could continue on and on…

Evidences?
Documents, please!
 
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Walking_Home:
Why would the Pope endorse this movement:

Because the founders paraded the “fruits” of this movement in front of him, but they did not show him the core.

Behind closed doors they teach their followers that the Church stopped being Catholic around the fourth century.

That the Church has turned us into a bunch of pharisees bound by rules and laws. (This includes both the N.O. and Traditional masses).

They dislike Vat 1, but love Vat 2, since the environment created by Vat 2 allowed this movement to enter the Church and grow.

That only those that “walk the Way or el Camino” are saved (in the Lutheran view).

That Kiko is the new “prophet” sent by God to return the Church to the “Truth”.

While they are always going on pilgramages to march for this cause or that:
Code:
 They are in no "way" Catholic.
I browsed some of the links provided in this thread giving an opposing view of the Way and my opinion is that they are exaggerating things quite a bit. Maybe I’m wrong, obviously I’m not that involved, but I DID spend 14 days with this group and witnessed a lot that doesn’t coincide with the accusations on those links.

It seems one of those sites was implying that the “insiders” in the Way have a “protestant” view about salvation and Faith/works and so on…this seems silly to me because the very first day we were in Germany they had a Penitential Service on the grounds of a concentration camp. Now, maybe this was just a personal preference of the priests who were accompanying us, but it sounds to me that the Way has a very orthodox Catholic view of the necessity of Confession. I just don’t really fall for all the accusations on those sites. You have to realize that there were two people leading our group who were students of Kiko and were part of the founding people of that group. I listened very carefully to them for 2 weeks (and believe me, they did A LOT of talking :rolleyes: ) and never heard them say anything that was out of line with Catholic doctrine. (and I would most likely pick up on it, especially after spending so much time here for a year) They were very orthodox in their doctrine and I find it hard to believe that they would be teaching something different than Kiko taught them.

I will say the one thing on those sites that I had thought about before was the way the Communion Hosts would crumble. That concerned me during Mass because you basically had to lick the crumbs out of your hand to prevent them falling on the ground. I wasn’t too comfortable with that. On the other hand, I have NEVER in my life been to a Mass like that in my life! I can’t even put it into words, but it was an awesome experience. Heck, I can’t even think of the right words to describe it.
 
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Matteo_01:
Does The Neocatechumenal Way fills the ten criterias of the parliamentary commission who define a dangerous sect?

The ten criterias – My viewpoint

Character exorbitant of the financial requirements – YES

Rupture with the environment of origin – YES

Mental destabilization – YES

Reached to the physical integrity – NO

Indoctrination of the children – YES

Untangled judicial – YES

Speech more or less antisocial – YES

What, like “Destroy this Temple, and I will rebuild it in three days ?” Jesus was accused of leading the people astray. And of treason.​

Unrest of the law and order – NO

Acts 18 - St. Paul was accused of exactly this.​

At first, Christianity was simply another sect within Judaism. From any point of vantage but its own, it’s activities can be described by all these criteria - which are hostile criteria. So the mere fact of their being fulfilled by another body, means little - it means only that what used to be an apocalyptic sect of Jewish origin, has grown into the same sort of body as that which persecuted it at birth - IOW, a Church with orthodoxies and rules and routine and inertia. And, that it is in some danger of treating a body new to it, as it was treated by the Jewish Church (so to call it) out of which it came. ##
Diversion possible of the traditional economic channels – YES

Attempts of infiltration of the public powers – YES

See this web site for explanation and more detailed description…
(The traduction is not very good…)

psychologue-clinicien.com/anglais/caracter.htm

Any comments : m_biss@msn.com

A lot of these criteria could also apply to the Church - from a hostile POV. So if the Way is unsatisfactory in some respects, these complaints won’t show it without also condemning the CC from which it came.​

 
My personal experiences with the Neocatechumenal Way was recorded under the instructions of my Parish Priest (Pastor), forwarded to my Archbishop and uploaded to my web-site.

However, following the Papal approval (ad experimentum) of the Statutes of the movement I did not wish to oppose what might have been the Will of the Holy Spirit - and subjugating my opinions to the opinions of the Pope I withdrew from my web-site all my files on the matter.

I have just uploaded one of the files for the benefit of this discussion; it will be removed again after a suitable period.

As to Papal approval *ad experimentum *I would point to the fact that the Pope also approved the Statutes (ad experimentum) of the Society of St Pius X, but subsequently he authorized the removal of that approval, which led Archbishop Lefebvre suspension a divinis and de facto schism in 1976 and de jure schism and excommunication in 1988.

The uploaded file may be viewed at jloughnan.tripod.com/neocat.htm
 
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Walking_Home:
Why would the Pope endorse this movement:

Because the founders paraded the “fruits” of this movement in front of him, but they did not show him the core.

Behind closed doors they teach their followers that the Church stopped being Catholic around the fourth century.
please show this “teaching”
w-h:
That the Church has turned us into a bunch of pharisees bound by rules and laws. (This includes both the N.O. and Traditional masses).

They dislike Vat 1, but love Vat 2, since the environment created by Vat 2 allowed this movement to enter the Church and grow.

That only those that “walk the Way or el Camino” are saved (in the Lutheran view).

That Kiko is the new “prophet” sent by God to return the Church to the “Truth”.

While they are always going on pilgramages to march for this cause or that:
Code:
 They are in no "way" Catholic.
Then how do you explain Jesus’ words ?

**"Declare a tree good and it’s fruit good
or …declare a tree rotten and it’s fruit rotten…
one ot the other,
for you can tell a tree by it’s fruit.

How can you utter anything good, you brood of vipers, when you are so evil ?

A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart;
an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil in his heart,
Each man speaks from his heart’s abundance,"**
Matt; 12: 33 / luke 6: 43

unless you are saying “They are no way like-warm catholics”

I would like to know, since God calls us all to holiness and to bear good fruit… (Gal. 5: 22)

Have you shrunk away from Christ’s Challenge to you…
or have you entered into it ?

are you now Gathering with Him…
or are you scattering ?

Look back this past year…Can you see what GOOD FRUIT you have born because The Holy Spirit leads you ?

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him."
(John 6: 44—65)

God bless you

gusano
 
gusano wrote:

Originally Posted by Walking_Home

Why would the Pope endorse this movement:
Because the founders paraded the “fruits” of this movement in front of him, but they did not show him the core.
*Behind closed doors they teach their followers that the Church stopped being Catholic around the fourth century. ***

please show this “teaching”
I have decided to also up-load the appendices to my main file at
jloughnan.tripod.com/neocat.htm

They are:

QUOTING THE NEOCATECHUMENALS
From The Founders and Catechists of the Neocatechumenal Way
jloughnan.tripod.com/append1.htm

Some Comments Made By The NeoCatechumenal Catechists at St Patrick’s, Lilydale, and some counter comments
jloughnan.tripod.com/append2.htm

Record of Some Comments Made Neocatechumenate Meeting Aug. 13, 2001
Presenter: Mrs Pam Atkinson
jloughnan.tripod.com/append3.htm

SOME SHORT COMMENTS ON QUOTES FROM
THE NEOCATECHUMENAL WAY FOUNDERS
jloughnan.tripod.com/append4.htm

Letter By Trevor Atkinson Given To Fr. Roger Ryan
Instructing Him On How To Reply To John Loughnan’s Critical Notes
jloughnan.tripod.com/append5.htm

Reproduction Of The Private Letter In Italian From Pope John Paul II To Bishop P.J. Cordes - Note There Is NO Gratuitous Addition As In The English Version:
jloughnan.tripod.com/append6.htm

Reproduction Of The English Translation Of The Private Letter In Italian From Pope John Paul II To Bishop P.J. Cordes - Note The Gratuitous Addition Immediately Below:
jloughnan.tripod.com/append7.htm

QUESTIONNAIRE ON RECONCILIATION
jloughnan.tripod.com/append8.htm

Brief Notes on Neocatechumenal Session,
St Patrick’s, Lilydale: August 15, 2001
NOTE: This meeting commenced with the distribution of a page entitled: “Questionnaire on Reconciliation”
ttp://jloughnan.tripod.com/append9.htm

An Experience Of The Neo-Catechumenal Way
by D.J. Redfern
jloughnan.tripod.com/append10.htm

NB to gusano:
From Appendix 3:
"The Church diverted from the course of the ‘primitive church’ at the time of Constantine
2 - and did not get back on track until the Second Vatican Council." The implications being: Bad Church from 314 to 1962 (Vatican II); better now with the Neocatechumenal Way!
 
Thanks soooo much Sean O L !!! Your links are simply wonderful… It’s exposing what this movement REALLY is…

Kiko said: “Jesus Christ is not at all an ideal of life. Jesus Christ did not come to give us an example or to teach us to fulfill the law.”

WHAT kind of catholic is that??

He pretend to be THE only way to God and that there is no good outside of the neocatechumenal Way…

In this movement, catechists are more important than priests…

A friend of mine who is a 13yr old girl !! Have suffered greatly because she wanted to leave the way…

When you’re in for a long time, you just can’t leave !!!
 
Evidences?
Documents, please!
I’ll do my best: (anyway Sean O L did great!!)

Testimony of a couple of USA against the path
psychologue-clinicien.com/usa.htm

A Catholic site
eraofpeace.tripod.com/

ENRICO ZOFFOLI - Reverend Passions Priest
geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_NCGEN.htm

Catholic sect accused of brainwashing
geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_BRAIN.htm

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL MECHANISM OF MENTAL CONDITIONING INSIDE THE NEOCATECHUMENATE COMMUNITY
geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_DM002.htm

THE NEOCATECHUMENAL MOVEMENT:
A VOLCANO OF ERRORS
geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_Med102.htm

Tons of pages translate from different languages:
psychologue-clinicien.com/anglais/chemin.htm

If you want more just tell me !! There is so many 😉

If you want to help me fighting against this heresy contact me: m_biss@msn.com
 
From the web site geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6919/E_DM002.htm:
  1. Kiko and his catechists have reigning authority. Something one of the catechists once said is telling, “Even priests should become part of the way and convert!”
  2. People who follow the Way consider themselves to be predeterminately chosen to become the salt and light of the Church and for the world.
  3. Members of the Way are promised salvation by accepting the Way as a style of life that’s unique and dearly for a privileged few. Something often said by the catechists is, “If you take on this way, you will have the spirit of Jesus Christ. We feel that it’s been true for us in our lives.”
  4. The community exerts a huge amount of pressure on its members. The members are subject to iron-handed discipline in the Way , as the catechists say, “it will bring you to the point of having to make a radical choice in your life.”
  5. It creates an attitude of segregation against those who do not take part in the Way. People who are excluded even include Christians who are part of the Church, people who are active in other catholic movements, and even the despised Catholics who go to Sunday Mass. Personally, I have seen many people who are richer in mercy than most Neocatechumenate!
  6. Followers of Kiko focus on missionary activities even if they have large families.
  7. After the second scrutiny, members must turn over ten percent of their monthly earnings, but on top of that there are even other collections for other purposes to contribute to! No year-end budget is ever produced from all the fund-raising. The catechists justify this with the evangelical teaching, “don’t let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.” So then, I have to ask myself, why is that the Church justifiably has every parish and ecclesial body have a finance council? Contributions, income and expenses are made clear across the board.
  8. Often without even realizing it, the Neocatechumenate take on a language, a particular jargon that makes them standout and distinguishes them from others.
  9. Generally, the Neocatechumenate react quite violently when someone criticizes the Way. They try to avoid the subject, or as is especially the case with the catechists, they resort to dialectics (the sign of the better sophist). Once I was really struck by how a person from the Way reacted to a man who said he didn’t believe in it. At first the follower of the Way calmly gave his own personal life’s testimony; even though he was vulgar in his criticism of the pope and bishops, he didn’t get angry until the moment the man criticized the Way. Hardly loving one’s enemy in the dimension of the cross!
  10. The Neocatechumenate often feel persecuted and they demonize (as I wrote earlier) those who don’t belong even if those people should still be considered their brothers in Christ. Sects typically demonize those who don’t think like they do because they need to create an external enemy (a scapegoat) upon which they can target all their individual fears and anxieties.
Now what you say?
 
Many thanks HagiaSophia for those very interesting links. I have browsed some of them and have printed them for greater attention.

God bless,
 
gusano,

Thanks for you (name removed by moderator)ut (which I just know stumbled across). I suppose the “Way” didn’t appeal to me because as I’ve said, I’ve already re-discovered my Catholic faith and have been living it out best I can, going to daily Mass, reading Scripture, daily Rosaries, etc. So, their intent to take “lukewarmness” and make it HOT is not what struck me as strange. That’s the part I found quite honorable. However, they implied that the “real” Church didn’t baptize infants then teach them “the Way” but did it the other way around. I don’t agree. St. Polycarp, for exaple, was Christian all his life, and it seemed to work out just fine for him to be baptized then catechized.

I’ve done Marriage Encounter and am in a Cursillo group, and these didn’t strike me as heterodox, whereas the Neocatecheuman Way did (granted, my basis was only one session).

As I said, perhaps I misunderstood their implication, or perhaps they simply mispoke. I praise their efforts, but I pray they don’t attempt to renounce the historic Catholic Church that has taught the Gospel truth for the past 2000 years in trying to ignite their new movement.
 
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Walking_Home:
Their “catechises” or the core of their doctrine has not been approved.
Please, get a bit of information about HOW THIS “STATUTES” HAVE BEEN OUTLINED.

And please, tell me, which part of the Neocatechumenal way, which part of “the core” is not present at the statutes?

Believe me, in Spain, lost of bishops have attended for years to a Neocathecumenal community (for example, the one from Valencia or Bilbao). At USA I know, at least two of them. One at NY and other at Texas. Why they don’t report to the Pope that “heretic core”? And what about the Way youth meetings, in which there are allways LOTS of bishops? At the USA, 4 years ago, there was a bishop meeting organized by the “kikos” to present the way to all the USA bishops. Why they don’t report the pope?
Sean O L:
I have decided to also up-load the appendices to my main file at…
I think most of what you have uploaded is absolutelly true, but, if it is out fo context, noone can understand the true meaning of those phrases. Or you will understand Jesus sayin “hate your father and your mother” if you don’t know the context?

The “core” of the “kikos” is really, really simple. The cristian world needs an in-deep catecheses to understand the true value of the cristianism.
Kiko said: “Jesus Christ is not at all an ideal of life. Jesus Christ did not come to give us an example or to teach us to fulfill the law.”
WHAT kind of catholic is that??
If he did put the WHOLE text, you would understand. Kiko said: "Jesus Christ is not at all an ideal of life. Jesus Christ did not come to give us an example or to teach us to fulfill the law. He came to fulfill the law HIMSELF, and to forgive our sins. You, me and anyone alone, CANNOT FULFILL THE LAW. Just toghether with JesusChrist we can."

It sounds better, don’t you think so?
  1. Kiko and his catechists have reigning authority. Something one of the catechists once said is telling, “Even priests should become part of the way and convert!”
Of course! Aren’t the priest sinners? Are they perfect?
  1. People who follow the Way consider themselves to be predeterminately chosen to become the salt and light of the Church and for the world.
Don’t be so fool. EVERY CATHOLIC thinks he or she has been chosen by God “since their mother’s womb”.
  1. Members of the Way are promised salvation by accepting the Way as a style of life that’s unique and dearly for a privileged few. Something often said by the catechists is, “If you take on this way, you will have the spirit of Jesus Christ. We feel that it’s been true for us in our lives.”
Thats ABSOLUTELLY FALSE. NOONE says that it’s the “unique” way. And on the other hand, what did the Pope said at Germany? Exactly the same: take the way of Jesus, you will have his spirit. It’s been true in my life.
  1. The community exerts a huge amount of pressure on its members. The members are subject to iron-handed discipline in the Way , as the catechists say, “it will bring you to the point of having to make a radical choice in your life.”
If you ever go to a community, you will start laughin of what you are writting now. Believe me, if something is true is that the “kikos” are a very “anarchic” movement.
  1. Followers of Kiko focus on missionary activities even if they have large families.
And what’s the problem with that?
  1. After the second scrutiny, members must turn over ten percent of their monthly earnings, but on top of that there are even other collections for other purposes to contribute to! No year-end budget is ever produced from all the fund-raising. The catechists justify this with the evangelical teaching, “don’t let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.” So then, I have to ask myself, why is that the Church justifiably has every parish and ecclesial body have a finance council? Contributions, income and expenses are made clear across the board.
ABSOLUTELLY FALSE AGAIN. The money of the “bag” is used to pay the community expenses. And it’s not since second scritiny, its since the very begining. And the bag goes to the hands of one of the community members, NOT THE CATECHISTS.

You know much about them, tell some truths, but you are confusing people and telling lies. I just want to remind you: “Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”

You know that you are telling lies, with some truths within it to confuse. Stop and think if you are offending someone that is in the need of this Way.

Bye
 
To txancete:

I want to ask you a simple question: are you part of the way?
 
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