What do you think scripture says about Mary?

[YuRa]

You need to read all of the posts.If you do not you chose to not hear anything but your own opinion.God Bless

I did not post opinion but Biblical fact. And you asking me to read the whole topic is fair I guess, so I will do it.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

YuRa:

I did not post opinion but Biblical fact. And you asking me to read the whole topic is fair I guess, so I will do it.

Thankyou God Bless

 

[CARose]

YuRa:

My 5 cents on the issue:

Yu Ra,

On the assumption that you have in fact gone ahead and read the entire thread, I will respond to your post. I appreciate your willingness to take others interpretation of scripture into account. I can appreciate that you believe what you have stated is scripturally correct. Please allow me to present an alternate, Catholic approach to scripture and the points you have raised.

I will start with Original Sin and Mary. The Angel Gabriel spoke to Mary and called her “Hail Mary, Full of Grace”. He addressed her with a title, unlike any other, Full of Grace, for she, unlike any before or since was created without Original Sin. God, in His infinite Goodness and Wisdom, created her without Original Sin so that she might be a vessel fitting to carry Christ in her womb. She acknowledges her own son as her Lord and Savior for she was saved in advance of her birth from falling into the grip of sin by a merciful and loving God.

Consider that the Tabernacle which merely held the Manna, Rod, and Tablets, was so Holy as to be only touched at certain times by very specific individuals. To touch the Tabernacle without this permission was to bring death onto yourself, as seen when one of the people in the procession to Jerusalem reaches out to prevent the Tabernacle from falling. He attempted to do good by committing an error of presumption. He died as a result.

If God held a tabernacle to such a high standard, would He not hold, as the Catholic Church teaches, the womb of Mary to such a high standard. Would he not require that she be fully free of sin to carry Our Lord in her very human womb. Her pregnancy preceeded the saving Grace of Baptism, so how else would you propose this occur? I couldn’t make it happen, you couldn’t, but with God, all things are possible, and so He saved her in anticipation of Christ’s sacrifice for all mankind.

You reference scripture when you say “All have sinned”. Take a closer look at that passage and you will see that the reference is not to all individuals, but rather to all nations, as in not only the Romans and Greeks, or Samarians, etc, but even the Jews, All have sinned. This is not to suggest that every individual in all these nations, but rather that there is not any group which can claim that they are free from the wages of sin.

If all have sinned, would you say that a one day old child has sinned? They may have been born with original sin, but have they then been guilty of personal sin? Catholic teaching suggests that sin requires that one know that what one is doing is in fact wrong, and then proceeds to do it anyways.

As for, was Mary the Mother of God? Yes, I believe she was.

God, the Father, through the Angel Gabriel, asked Mary, a woman, a mere mortal, to bear His Son, Jesus Christ, our savior and she accepted His request, stating, “Be it done unto me, according to Thy Word”. She didn’t take it and run with it, she allowed it to be done unto her. She allowed God’s Will to take place, according to His plan. How many of us have the necessary humility to do this? I fear I would be so excited, I’d get in the way and impose my will on the entire process. But Mary did not. She followed God’s Will and sheparded the Shepard into adulthood. She played the perfect role of mother, bringing him home to finish maturing into manhood, easing him out when she saw that it was time for him to begin his public ministry with the first miracle, and holding his broken body after his crucifixion.

She was the mother of Christ, yes, but Christ is God, made man, they are inseperable. When you seperate them you fall into heresy, a heresy which was addressed early in Church history.

Jesus is one Person with two natures, His Divine Nature and his Human Nature. But Jesus the person was born of Mary the Person. And that makes her Mary, Mother of God.

She is therefore the Queen Mother, in Heaven. She is NOT God, she is not a Goddess, but she sits and brings to her son, our petitions. As He listened to her when she interceded at Cana, He listens even now to the woman who cared for Him with a love as perfect as any known to mankind, the love of a mother for her son.

CARose

 

[YuRa]

Let us begin:

OF course not Gen 3:15 and Rv 12 show Mary and Jesus as a team that crushes Satan. Something is differnet about these 2 than the rest of humanity to conclude it would be not having sin and their participation of crushing sin is llogical.

Correct interpretation of Gen 3:15 and Rev 12 would help you understand a little better. So did Mary die on the cross with Christ to save sinners? Did she suffer like Christ did before death? Did she resurrect after? Then how is she part of a team to destroy Satan? Read those places over, and don’t add traditional thinking to them.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.

Were do you see Mary in the picture? God say I will put enmity between you and the woman. The “you” in the first part is Satan and the “woman” is Eve. The bruise on the heel is from Satan which is death, and the bruise on the head is from Christ which is the final blow on Satan. Mary is never mentioned or even implied anywhere here.

You are insulting the Holy God by adding the work of a human being into His work of salvation. The only thing Mary did was give birth to Christ; she did not pay the penalty for our sins.

First of all I’d say to the person that originally posted these questions: scripture doesn’t speak, it’s not a living, breathing person, so you might want to rephrase that statement because if taken literally you come off like a crazy person saying that a book or collection of books can speak.

Most of the N.T. is letters to churches, meaning they are words that Paul or other writers would say to the churches. So literally some Scripture says.

Second, it should be common sense to believe that Mary was sinless because God would not allow His Son to come into this world through an unclean vessel. If God loathes sin, then why would He spend 9 months in the womb of a sinful person?

Common sense huh? Well then its obviously common sense that the Holy Spirit is not inside of a believer, because if God can not be inside a sinful person then the Holy Spirit can not be inside us. Your argument is weak and traditional not Scriptural.

Third, if God told Jeremiah that he was chosen before he was in his mothers womb, then couldn’t God have chosen Mary before her birth as well & kept her free from sin so that His Son could be born through a pure & sinless vessel?

I agree God could have chosen to keep her free of sin, but that would mean she would be righteous like God. Also she would have to not inherent original sin, which the Bible says we all have, except Christ because of his Divine Birth. But no where in the Scriptures does it say God did keep her sinless. Your argument is only opinion not Biblical fact.

I will stay with these for starters God Bless and thankyou God for the gift of your precious Mother

Mary is not my mother, she was the earthly mother of Christ. Christ existed before Mary gave birth to Him.

 

[YuRa]

Taken in the absolute sense, is this really saying all have sinned, that is, have commited actual sin? What about newborn babes? What about the extremely mentally deficient?

This is just ridiculous, since when is ignorance of sin a saving method? Did Christ lie when He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.” Christ did not add, “and ignorance of the law also.”

I am not arguing that babies go to hell; I am just saying they are sinners, and all sinners deserve hell apart from the mercy of God. Ignorance of sin would then be a blessing in this sense.

It is clear that this is not meant to be an all inclusive statement, but meant only to speak to the state of men generally. It assumes exceptions, and all that Catholics are saying is that Mary was an exception.

So why did Mary believe in Christ; I mean she never sinned. She did not need Christ’s atonement for salvation. Why give up your life to Christ if you did not need Him? And were in the Bible does it say she was an exception? That’s what I would like to know.

You will see through this book that those who attack Our Blessed Mother don’t read Scripture in context.

No one attacks Mary; I just do not see how she is any different from me or you. She was used by God to bring Christ into the world, that’s it. She does not answer our prayers, and is not worthy of our thank you’s only God is worthy of all glory. And, “don’t read Scripture in context.” Would apply to those who make Mary out to be a divine being.

 

[YuRa]

Vocabularies that were used 2000 years ago do not necessarily have the same meaning today.

Yes it does, it just has a different word to it. The Bible still has its original meaning, it just has its words translated.

Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were.

Now this is so interesting? What was Mary saved from if she never sinned?

It was simply applied at her conception because of her unique destiny as the mother of God. (Something that the writings of all three “pillars of the reformation” support.)

What? So she was predestined to give birth to Christ into the world. So how does that make her sinless?

She is the only person in all of history to be greeted with, “Hail full of grace” What do you think the angel Gabriel meant by that?

He meant, “Hail full of the free gift of God” How does that make her sinless?

The Blessed Virgin herself plainly says she is saved by God in the NT when she speaks from the fullness of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41-50)

Again why did she need to get saved? Saved from what? If she never sinned? Also, she was not a virgin after words, because Joseph was warned to keep her a virgin until she gave birth. He was not told to keep her a virgin after.

As far as Luke 1:40 and on. So Mary was blessed, obviously she carried that Savior in her womb. Notice in verse 47 that she refers to God as her Savior. Why does she need a Savior if she is free of sin?

Alright that was the first 7 posts, do you want me to go on?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

YuRa:

Yes it does, it just has a different word to it. The Bible still has its original meaning, it just has its words translated.

Now this is so interesting? What was Mary saved from if she never sinned?

What? So she was predestined to give birth to Christ into the world. So how does that make her sinless?

He meant, “Hail full of the free gift of God” How does that make her sinless?

Again why did she need to get saved? Saved from what? If she never sinned? Also, she was not a virgin after words, because Joseph was warned to keep her a virgin until she gave birth. He was not told to keep her a virgin after.

As far as Luke 1:40 and on. So Mary was blessed, obviously she carried that Savior in her womb. Notice in verse 47 that she refers to God as her Savior. Why does she need a Savior if she is free of sin?

Alright that was the first 7 posts, do you want me to go on?

Yes Go On God Bless

 

[Church_Militant]

I just wanted to point out these things (again) which are actually Catholic teaching about the Blessed Virgin Mary and may clarify some of the confusion that some of you seem to have. Some of you are very close to Catholic teaching (being catholics. LOL.) and some of you may not have had the benefit of all the study that I have done. Please bear in mind that I returned to the Catholic faith after 34 years away because I looked into the marian teachings of the church after a guy I met accused us of worshipping her, (Ludicrous!). I atribute my reversion to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin and as she said at the wedding feast at Cana, I “do whatever he tells you”.

Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were. It was simply applied at her conception because of her unique destiny as the mother of God. (Something that the writings of all three “pillars of the reformation” support.) She is the only person in all of history to be greeted with, “Hail full of grace” What do you think the angel Gabriel meant by that? Her redemption was applied at her conception. How could the Son of the Living God ahve been born in the womb of a woman who was steeped in sin? Mary carried the very New Covenant with God within her body and protected and raised Him. Loving Him with all her heart and soul. If the ark of the Covenant had to be so intensely purified, justy how much more would the ark of the New Ciovenant have to be pure that carried the very Son of God? She was indeed the very first Christian, since she and Joseph were the very first believers in Jesus.
The Blessed Virgin herself plainly says she is saved by God in the NT when she speaks from the fullness of the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1:41-50)

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

Also please do a word study on the Hebrew term “Giberah” because it is very relevent to Mary’s position as intercessor for the people of God, since there is no question at all about Jesus being King of Israel and King of Kings and that she was in fact His mother.

 

[YuRa]

Church Militant-

Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were

I just want to know what was she saved from? Hell? Why did she need to be saved if she never sinned?

I do believe Mary is saved; just do not believe that she never sinned.

 

[YuRa]

Church Militant-

Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were

I just want to know what she was saved from? Hell? Why did she need to be saved if she never sinned?

I do believe Mary is saved; just do not believe that she never sinned.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

One of the constant issues which I constantly find myself explaining to Protestants is that Catholics do not place Mary above Jesus and Catholics don’t worship Mary instead of Jesus.

I have debated this point on so many different occasions with so many different Protestants (amongst other points) that I am beginning to believe that it is not a misconception but actually being taught; which would be Protestant anti-Catholic indoctrination.

 

[Pax]

YuRa:

My 5 cents on the issue:
…
I am just saying that she was a sinner just like you and me. She was just like you and me a regular person, and God decided to use her to bring our Savior into the world. That’s it. She was just a “mother of Christ” on earth…

Now this is pretty ridiculous to say the least. I suppose Moses was just another guy, and Isaiah, and Paul and all the other important biblical figures are just like you and me. Do you really believe that there was nothing special about these people? Do you really believe that God never poured out his grace on them in ways that we will never experience? To think this way shows an incredible lack of appreciation for the wonders and power of our God.

YuRa:

She was just a regular woman that God chose to us in His divine plan to save His sheep. That’s all. Nothing in Scripture suggests she never sinned before or after the birth of Jesus.

Actually there is plenty to suggest that Mary never sinned. Some of these were outlined in some of the posts which you did not read on this thread.

You seem to believe that there are no exceptions to the statement in Romans 3:9-11 that no one is righteous. Well let’s see if that’s true.

Paul’s reference in Romans that “all” having sinned is a quotation from Psalm 14:1-5 and obviously does not mean that there are no exceptions. We know this because the psalm says, "THE FOOL says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one. Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread, and do not call upon the Lord?
There they shall be in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous.

Paul and the psalmist are talking about the non-believing evil doers and also the power of original sin. If this were not the case the psalmist would not be able to say that which I highlighted in bold print. You can also see other passages in scripture that negate your contention about sin. See Gen 6:9 where it says,
"These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.
See Luke 1:6 that talks about Zachariah and Elizabeth where we are told that, “Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.” And remember that it is the blameless Elizabeth when filled the Holy Spirit[Luke 1:42] says to Mary “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”[Luke 1:43]

Scripture states in no uncertain terms that we have some holy and righteous people out there and that one of them, while filled with Holy Spirit, was in awe of a visit from Mary the Mother of Jesus. All of this means something.

When you flippantly detract from Mary you are doing the same thing to her son. Everything about Mary points to Jesus. Everything about Mary magnifies the Lord. When you detract from Mary you are saying something about Jesus. When you play down what God has done for her, you are saying something about the mind and power and love of God. Think about this carefully and consider the scriptures that we have presented to you.

Does your position, in accordance with scripture, adequately reflect the glory and power of God or does the position and teaching of the Catholic Church?

 

[YuRa]

Yes Go On God Bless

lol no Lisa that would take way to long, people get the point.

I do not support praying to Mary, and I do not see evidence in the Bible for Mary being sinless before or after the birth of Jesus.

 

[Pax]

YuRa:

Church Militant-

I just want to know what was she saved from? Hell? Why did she need to be saved if she never sinned?

I do believe Mary is saved; just do not believe that she never sinned.

Everyone knows that the fall of Adam permanently separated man from God. Jesus sacrifice on the cross was necessary for all, even Mary. The difference is that Mary’s Immaculate Conception is her being saved in a more special way. Even those in the OT prior to Christ’s death and resurrection are saved by him in an anticipatory fashion. Once Jesus died and preached to the spirits in prison[1 Peter 3:19] all of the OT saved were allowed to be in the presence of God forever.

 

[Pax]

YuRa:

lol no Lisa that would take way to long, people get the point.

I do not support praying to Mary, and I do not see evidence in the Bible for Mary being sinless before or after the birth of Jesus.

Did you read my post just prior this, and have you read any of the other posts on this thread? If so respond to them and show us why we should take your side.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

YuRa:

lol no Lisa that would take way to long, people get the point.

I do not support praying to Mary, and I do not see evidence in the Bible for Mary being sinless before or after the birth of Jesus.

You are the one who asked if you should go on,I simply said yes,please do God Bless

 

[YuRa]

Pax

I suppose Moses was just another guy, and Isaiah, and Paul and all the other important biblical figures are just like you and me

They were all humans like me and you and all sinned. God used them as instruments to show His glory and any other purpose He had for them.

Paul and the psalmist are talking about the non-believing evil doers and also the power of original sin. If this were not the case the psalmist would not be able to say that which I highlighted in bold print

lol I find this so interesting: So before Mary was a believer she was not an evil doer? Like the one described in Rom 3:23 an Ps? You just destroyed your own side of the argument.

"These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God.

But Pax why was Noah righteous? Because he had faith, just like Abraham in Rom 4. Because of faith he was credited righteousness. So are you saying Mary had faith her whole life? Obviously she was righteous but after she had faith.

“Both of them were righteous before God, living blamelessly according to all the commandments and regulations of the Lord.”

Yes again they were righteous because they believed. Not because they obtained righteous by there works.

Your argument is weak, and traditionally based not biblically.

And remember that it is the blameless Elizabeth when filled the Holy Spirit[Luke 1:42] says to Mary “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”[Luke 1:43]

This is just amusing, so Elizabeth was a believer, and she is privileged to be with the woman that will give birth to Christ. So that means Mary is sinless? lol and that’s your argument why Mary was sinless.

And remember that it is the blameless Elizabeth when filled the Holy Spirit[Luke 1:42] says to Mary “And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”[Luke 1:43]

Yes it does all have original sin on them read Romans more carefully and do not pass tradition as Scripture.

When you flippantly detract from Mary you are doing the same thing to her son

What! I can not believe you said that, where do you see in Text.

Think about this carefully and consider the scriptures that we have presented to you.

All I see is how you glorify Mary, but all glory is to God. Mary did nothing to deserve glory, God chose her, God was born through her, and God then saved her.

Why then would He need to save her if she never sinned?

 

[YuRa]

Everyone knows that the fall of Adam permanently separated man from God. Jesus sacrifice on the cross was necessary for all, even Mary.

Obviously but why then did Mary need to be saved! If she never sinned! Why did she need the sacrifice of Christ? Wow how clear is it, she need to be saved; therefore she needed something to be saved from. Meaning she had to have sinned!

 

[YuRa]

Church Militant-

Quote:
Mary was saved by the same sacrifice of Christ that we were

I just want to know what was she saved from? Hell? Why did she need to be saved if she never sinned?

I do believe Mary is saved; just do not believe that she never sinned.
This question still stands…

Why did Mary need to get saved if she was sinless and did not need a savior?

 

[Church_Militant]

YuRa:

My 5 cents on the issue:

Mary was a human being, no were in Scripture does it say she was existent before she was physically born into the world.True! And no Catholic EVER said such a ludicrous thing or ever implied it…so what’s your point? Since she was born into the world with a natural birth she had original sin. And original sin is still sin, and sufficient enough to condemn a person to hell. You believe in original sin? As an evangelical… interesting… Now I am not saying Mary is in hell by no means. I am just saying that she was a sinner just like you and me. She was just like you and me a regular person, Here, we have to disagree, for the reasons stated in my other two posts. Also, if it is impossible to remain sinless then all of Christianity is false since that is expressly what God has commanded us to be in Christ. and God decided to use her to bring our Savior into the world. That’s it. She was** just** a “mother of Christ” on earth and Christ did not originate from her, because Christ always existed. You really do need to study up on what Christianity teaches about the Mother of God. Catholics never have taught such a heresy. We know that from numerous places in Scripture. She was just a regular woman** You treat Mary like God just got up one day and yawned and said “Okay …now who do I wanna pick to be the mother of my Son?” and then sort of did an “eenie,meenie, miney, moe” thing and happend to choose the Blessed Virgin. That makes God sound like He had no plan, and we know that’s not true.**that God chose to us in His divine plan to save His sheep. That’s all. Nothing in Scripture suggests she never sinned before or after the birth of Jesus. **How would you like to be “Full of Grace”? **