What does Daniel 8:13,14 mean?

[ryanoneil]

Reasons why Antiochus IV cannot be the little horn in Dan 7 and 8.

“a little horn [a horn which started small, NIV], which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land”. There is no evidence in history that Antiochus IV waxed exceedingly great towards south (Egypt), east (Greece) and pleasant land ( Judea/Syria). So the horn started out little but became exceedingly great, or big. As you saw in the passage, the size was an indication of its influence and power.

In Daniel 8, the ram is described as “great” (v.4), the goat that followed was “very great” and the horn that grew from littleness became “exceeding great”. Compared to Medo-Persia and then Greece, Antiochus was not great at all,certainly not exceedingly great. His father, Antiochus III, is barely a blip on the screen of history, yet he was much more successful than his son in holding back the advance of the Romans. Antiochus IV was a repeated looser faced with the rising power of the developing Roman Empire.

Alexander was called 'great" and you stated Antiochus IV would be the “exceeding great”. Who was more powerful Alexander or Antiochus IV? I believe it was Alexander.
Just three years after the desecration (168 BC) by Antiochus, the conservative Jews “cleansed” or restored the temple at Jerusalem with the building of a new altar. The problem is that this cleansing did not happen after even half of 2300 literal days and clearly not 2300 years.

In Dan 8:12 - scripture reads " he did all this and prospered" - the “he” being the little horn. If the he is talking about Antiochus IV, how did he prosper. I believe Antiochus IV did commit evil things to the Jews, but after his accomplishment he died, he didn’t prosper.

written with love

Let me ask you this: why do you think the little horn is only in the future? why doesn’t Daniel mention more than four kingdoms coming out of Greece when he was so concerned with exact timing? There have been scores of kingdoms since but he makes no mention. What about the 4 beast or the 4 parts of the statue. In Daniel’s timeline the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom replaces the other 4, and Daniel makes no mention of thousand + year gaps in his timeline. Those gaps are assumed into the scripture when they don’t exist.

Seeing fulfillment in Antiochus IV, the early church attributed the little horn and Daniel’s desolating abomination to Nero, who also accomplished many things and died within the generation of people who listened to the words of Christ.

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mt 24:34)

Fulfillment of events in Daniel became future prophesy related to Jesus time. And then fulfillment of events in Jesus time became future prophecy that points to the second advent.

That is why the early Christians recognized Daniel’s vision was initially fulfilled but sealed up intill the advent of Christ (who would fulfill Daniel in a more siginificant way). That is why they attributed the fourth kingdom to Rome, which was defeated by the Cross of Christ but gave up it’s fight centuries later (as the stone grew into a mountain).

Is it gross to say Daniel has been initially fulfilled and those events point to one final fulfillment by Christ at the end of time? I think not. Countless times in the Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled in the time of the prophet but was then applied to Christ who would achieve a greater fulfillment. I’m not saying there will not be a futue little horn who will be the greatest of all, or that there will, what I’m saying is don’t miss the fact that Daniel has been initially fulfilled.

The fact is, the blessings of Daniel’s seventy weeks came with Christ’s advent along with his kingdom the Church. But we won’t see the full glory and final fulfillment of what was started by Christ until his bride and the heavenly Jerusalem come down with him at his second coming in glory. Will there be a final tribulation? Yes, but Christ is not coming back to start a kingdom. He is coming back to perfect it for all eternity.

 

[barboza21]

Well said Richard; almost 100% correct. I would just add that no Seventh-day Adventist ever believed the 1844 prophecy of Wm Miller. Miller was never a Seventh-day Adventist. However, that would not negate some of his other teachings from the Bible which have been very helpful to many people around the world.

Hey there its nice to have someone else to join the conversation. Listen, I was just thinking. Luther founded the Lutheran Church. And Luther was Catholic before hand.

I was thinking. Exactly who (if there is specificaly 1) is the OFFICIAL founder of your church. From what I have heard from SDAs when they speak about their church, it sounds like it is EGW. If this is true, or even if its not, where did your founder come from? What religion? Unless they were non believers and then all of a sudden stumbled upon the ‘truth’ of the sabbath and adventism.?

Thanks. I’ve actually thought about this for a long time just never got to ask it this way. Hope you can help.

 

[barboza21]

I have been corrected by my Catholic brothers and sisters on this forum many times. (and a few Mormons as well, when discussing their faith.) I am thankful for this. Im not going to pick up my marbles and go home, simply because someone called me to task. I wish we were all united in One Truth also. And I believe at some point that will happen. Read Romans 11. It deals with the Jews and their reconciliation. It is a great comfort to me for the future. Peace

Thanks for the recommendation. sorry took long. school business.

 

[BTTG]

Jeremiah’s prophecy of a Babylonian captivity of seventy years was an approximate time. It was not literal in the least bit. It only lasted 59 years from 597 BCE until 538 BCE. But it was a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation.

However, Daniel is meditating on Jeremiah’s number because he still sees the conditions of exile existing during the persecution of Antiochus. So, Daniel extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years. This is just as much an approximation as Jeremiah’s original number. And Daniel’s seven times seventy years characterizes the Jewish victory over the Seleucids as the fulfillment of the prophecy. But just as Daniel extended Jeremiah, Jesus extended Daniel to include his time. These are approximations.

The ultimate point I’m trying to make is: in order for futurist’s number to add up they have to insert a gap into the middle of (Dan 9:26) or the next verse. This is a gross adding of time to what the bible does not indicate. There is no indication of a gap between the first and second advent of the Messiah. There is no gap indicated between the 69th and 70th weeks. This is a preconcieved notion that is not there and all the previous number figuring is thrown out the window between the 69th and 70th week.

Do you see my point?

I agree with you that the last week of the 70 weeks of Daniel is not transfered to the second advent. There is no gap period.

However, where in the bible does it say that the 70 weeks was a " approximate" time period. Gabriel is very specific when he states "(Dan 9:25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This verse is very specific in referring to a specific time period.

Where do you get the year 597 from?

Where does it state this in the bible…“was a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation.”?

Where does the bible indicate that Daniel( Gabriel) “extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years.”? It does state in the bible that " Seventy weeks are determined…" The word determined means to " cut off from", the 70 weeks are cut off from some other period of time, not as you suggest that the 70 weeks are added on , or extended.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Let me ask you this: why do you think the little horn is only in the future? why doesn’t Daniel mention more than four kingdoms coming out of Greece when he was so concerned with exact timing? There have been scores of kingdoms since but he makes no mention. What about the 4 beast or the 4 parts of the statue. In Daniel’s timeline the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom replaces the other 4, and Daniel makes no mention of thousand + year gaps in his timeline. Those gaps are assumed into the scripture when they don’t exist.

**Response - The little horn I believe was in the past, present and continues today.

Daniel does mention more then the four kingdoms. Also, he mentions of the kingdoms in the future, beyond Greece. In Dan. 7: 6 , we have the leopard, which is Greece (331 BC – 168 BC) and the beast had 4 heads who were Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece . Vs 7 - a fourth beast who is Rome (168 BC – AD 476) , Rome was the next kingdom to rise to power. Staying with verse 7, ten horns which come from Rome ( also seen in Dan. 7:24) (this is also the 10 toes in Dan. 2 ) who are Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli ( . In verse 8 it states " three of the first horns were plucked out by their roots", plucked out by their roots, as these three kingdoms would never rise again. The three kingdoms plucked were Heruli, Ostrogeoths and the Vandels. The prophecy fits perfectly with history.**

Seeing fulfillment in Antiochus IV, the early church attributed the little horn and Daniel’s desolating abomination to Nero, who also accomplished many things and died within the generation of people who listened to the words of Christ.

**Response" - sorry i am a little confused… is the little horn Antiochus IV, or Nero ? Furthermore, Dan. 7: 22 states that the little horn continues to make war against the saints until the the Ancient of Days came and until the saints posses the kingdom. Therefore we read that the little horn continues until the second coming of Jesus. Thus the little horn cannot be Antiochus IV, or Nero. **

written with love

 

[ryanoneil]

I agree with you that the last week of the 70 weeks of Daniel is not transfered to the second advent. There is no gap period.

OK.

However, where in the bible does it say that the 70 weeks was a " approximate" time period.

The footnotes of my bible.

Gabriel is very specific when he states "(Dan 9:25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Of course we believe it refers to Christ, but there was an earlier fulfillment. It all depends how you read it. Consider this.

Jeremiah’s prophecy is the first utterance for Jerusalem to be rebuilt. Seven weeks/49 years is the apprximated time of the exile. The anointed leader is either Cyrus, who was called the anointed of the Lord to end the exile (Isa 45:1), or the high priest Joshua who presided over the rebuilding of the altar of sacrifice after the exile (Ezra 3:2). During the sixty two weeks is an approximate 434 years between the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile and the beginning of the Seleucid persecution.

This verse is very specific in referring to a specific time period.

That is fine, but a specific time period doesn’t always mean an exact amount of time. A relative proportion of the total figure is still a specific time period.

Where do you get the year 597 from?

Judah revolted against Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem. The city fell on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BCE, and Nebuchadnezzar pillaged Jerusalem and its Temple and took Jeconiah and his court and other prominent citizens (including the prophet Ezekiel) back to Babylon.

If you prefer, go with 587 and the deportation of King Zedekiah and the rest of the people. Then you have a 49 year exile (one week).

Where does it state this in the bible…“was a round number signifying the complete passing away of the existing generation.”?

My bible footnotes.

Where does the bible indicate that Daniel( Gabriel) “extends Jeremiah’s number to seventy weeks of years.”? It does state in the bible that " Seventy weeks are determined…" The word determined means to " cut off from", the 70 weeks are cut off from some other period of time, not as you suggest that the 70 weeks are added on , or extended.

written with love

My bible footnotes.

 

[ryanoneil]

**Response - The little horn I believe was in the past, present and continues today.

Daniel does mention more then the four kingdoms. Also, he mentions of the kingdoms in the future, beyond Greece. In Dan. 7: 6 , we have the leopard, which is Greece (331 BC – 168 BC) and the beast had 4 heads who were Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece . Vs 7 - a fourth beast who is Rome (168 BC – AD 476) , Rome was the next kingdom to rise to power. Staying with verse 7, ten horns which come from Rome ( also seen in Dan. 7:24) (this is also the 10 toes in Dan. 2 ) who are Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli ( . In verse 8 it states " three of the first horns were plucked out by their roots", plucked out by their roots, as these three kingdoms would never rise again. The three kingdoms plucked were Heruli, Ostrogeoths and the Vandels. The prophecy fits perfectly with history.**

The initial fulfillment does not include the Romans. Babylonian empire as a winged lion, a bear represents the Median empire, A leopard symbolized the swiftness with which Cyrus the Persian established his kingdom and Alexander’s empire was different from all the others in that it was Western rather than Oriental in inspiration. The ten horns represent the kings of the Seleucid dynasty.

**Response" - sorry i am a little confused… is the little horn Antiochus IV, or Nero ? Furthermore, Dan. 7: 22 states that the little horn continues to make war against the saints until the the Ancient of Days came and until the saints posses the kingdom. Therefore we read that the little horn continues until the second coming of Jesus. Thus the little horn cannot be Antiochus IV, or Nero. **

written with love

The little horn is both. Daniel was concerned with Antiochus. After Daniel’s initial fulfillment Jesus said their would be a more significant fulfillment with Nero.

Think of it this way. History becomes prophecy. Isaiah said the Lord would give a sign of a young woman who would concieve and bear a son (Isa 7:14). The first fulfillment of this was in the life of Isaiah with the prophetess of (Isa 8:3-4) Then that fulfillment became a prophecy of a more significant fulfillment in Christ. Do you see what I’m saying?

Daniel is concerned with Antiochus but Jesus says something bigger is about to happen. Daniel’s timeline is extended to include events in his generation and Rome figures into the equation.

Here is the other thing, Dan 7: 22 is already fulfilled initially. The three and a half years of verse 25 refers to the Jewish-Roman war. Could there be a more significant fulfillment associated with the Second Coming of Christ? Absolutely! My point is all of Daniel has been initially fulfilled.

 

[BTTG]

OK.

The footnotes of my bible.

**Response - What bible do you use? **

Of course we believe it refers to Christ, but there was an earlier fulfillment. It all depends how you read it. Consider this.

Response - Ok, you agree that Dan. 9 - the 70 weeks is talking about Christ. Therefore, the prophecy cannot be talking about an earlier prophecy

Jeremiah’s prophecy is the first utterance for Jerusalem to be rebuilt. Seven weeks/49 years is the apprximated time of the exile. The anointed leader is either Cyrus, who was called the anointed of the Lord to end the exile (Isa 45:1), or the high priest Joshua who presided over the rebuilding of the altar of sacrifice after the exile (Ezra 3:2). During the sixty two weeks is an approximate 434 years between the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile and the beginning of the Seleucid persecution.

**Response - Yes, Jeremiah mentions Jerusalem to be rebuilt. However, there is only one decree given in history that commands the restoring and building of Jerusalem. No other decree in the bible was given for this command. The first 69 years is specifically talking about the time from the restore and build of Jerusalem until Jesus Christ ( His baptism) . With respect the prophecy does not fit Cyrus, Joshua and the altar. **

That is fine, but a specific time period doesn’t always mean an exact amount of time. A relative proportion of the total figure is still a specific time period.

**Response - sorry I do not understand . **

Judah revolted against Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon laid siege to Jerusalem. The city fell on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BCE, and Nebuchadnezzar pillaged Jerusalem and its Temple and took Jeconiah and his court and other prominent citizens (including the prophet Ezekiel) back to Babylon.

Response - once again the Dan prophecy is talking about the restore and build of Jerusalem, not about the fall of Jerusalem.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

The initial fulfillment does not include the Romans. Babylonian empire as a winged lion, a bear represents the Median empire, A leopard symbolized the swiftness with which Cyrus the Persian established his kingdom and Alexander’s empire was different from all the others in that it was Western rather than Oriental in inspiration. The ten horns represent the kings of the Seleucid dynasty.

**Humbly I correct you - Notice in Dan 8:1 the vision appeared to daniel again, but this time in the form of animals. Babylon = *lion ***( agree with you) , the *bear *= Media and Persia , notice 1) Dan 7:5 " raised up on one side" = Persia was stronger then Medes 2) Dan. 5:28 - " your Kingdom ( Babylon) has been given to the Medes and Persians 3) Dan 8:20 ram = bear = Media and Persia 4) Dan 7:5 - " had three ribs" = the empire had conquered Lydia , Egypt and Babylon . *Leopard *= Greece , Dan.8:21 - the leopard = goat which is Greece. Dan. 8:5 " goat came from the west= Greece is west of Persia, Dan 8:8 " goat became very great" = Alexander the great. Dan. 8:8,22; 11:4 - " large horn broken and in place four notable ones" = When Alexander died his 4 generals=Casandra,Lysimaches, Selevcus, Ptolemy divided Greece.
In your interpretation you left out Greece.

You stated, “The ten horns represent the kings of the Seleucid dynasty.” . What “three kingdoms were plucked out by their roots”? Dan. 7:8

The little horn is both. Daniel was concerned with Antiochus. After Daniel’s initial fulfillment Jesus said their would be a more significant fulfillment with Nero.

**Notice Dan. 7:21 - "the *same ***horn prevailed until the Ancient of days= God ( Dan 7:9) *came. God has not come yet. *

Response - please provide verses…thank you

Daniel is concerned with Antiochus but Jesus says something bigger is about to happen. Daniel’s timeline is extended to include events in his generation and Rome figures into the equation.

I am not sure what you are referring to… sorry.

Here is the other thing, Dan 7: 22 is already fulfilled initially. The three and a half years of verse 25 refers to the Jewish-Roman war. Could there be a more significant fulfillment associated with the Second Coming of Christ? Absolutely! My point is all of Daniel has been initially fulfilled.

**I believe Dan 7:22 has not taken place. The “Ancient of days” = God, has not come- the Ancient of days is still seated ( Dan. 7:9), " judgement was made", Judgement has not taken place, " saints to posses the kingdom" - the saints have not possesed the kingdom yet **

]
written with love

 

[ryanoneil]

**Response - What bible do you use? **

Footnotes from the NAB. usccb.org/nab/bible/index.shtml

Of course we believe it refers to Christ, but there was an earlier fulfillment. It all depends how you read it. Consider this.

Response - Ok, you agree that Dan. 9 - the 70 weeks is talking about Christ. Therefore, the prophecy cannot be talking about an earlier prophecy

It certainly is talking about an earlier prophecy. An event that fulfills prophecy can itselft be a prophecy of a still-future, final fulfillment. We both agree the Isaiah 7:14 is a prophecy about Christ, correct?

Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: a young woman shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. He shall be living on curds and honey by the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good. For before the child learns to reject the bad and choose the good, the land of those two kings whom you dread shall be deserted. The LORD shall bring upon you and your people and your father’s house days worse than any since Ephraim seceded from Judah. (This means the king of Assyria.) On that day The LORD shall whistle for the fly that is in the farthest streams of Egypt, and for the bee in the land of Assyria. All of them shall come and settle in the steep ravines and in the rocky clefts, on all thornbushes and in all pastures. On that day the LORD shall shave with the razor hired from across the River (with the king of Assyria) the head, and the hair between the legs. It shall also shave off the beard.

This prophecy was written hundreds of years before Christ and was actually fulfilled within the life time of Isaiah. In Isaiah’s time, Jerusalem was being besieged by the Syrians and the ten northern tribes of Israel, and the situation looked hopeless. But God assured them theat their enemies would not be victorious over them, through the prophet Isaiah. God would send the Assyrians against the Syrians and ten northern tribes. Isaiah promised that a young girl would concieve and give birth to a son and before the son was weaned Judea’s enemies would be destroyed, but there would be a period before that salvation was fully realized.

Then I went to the prophetess and she conceived and bore a son. The LORD said to me: Name him Maher-shalal-hash-baz, for before the child knows how to call his father or mother by name, the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried off by the king of Assyria. (Isa 8:3-4)

This is the fulfillment of Isa 7:14. Jerusalem was spared from its enemies during those years. But the story doesn’t end there. In fewer than seventy years, the ten northern tribes that rejected the reign of David’s heir, were utterly destroyed. Jerusalem experienced God’s salvation but not every descendant of Abraham benefited from that salvation. This is a prophecy before the time of Christ.

But then an interesting thing happened to this prophecy after it was initially fulfilled. The Jewish leaders taught that the events of Isaiah 7:14 still had another future fulfillment. The birth of a son via a young woman would signal the coming salvation of God’s faithful remnant and the destruction of the faithless majority. And they said the young woman would actually be a virgin. Someday another Son would come who would signal the availability of a more universal salvation for Israel. By the time of Christ, Isa 7:14 was understood to be a Messianic prophecy, and the Gospels reference it as such. When Matthew uses this prophecy in Mt 1:23, he points to more than just the virgin birth. He includes the series of events including the salvation of the believing remnant and the destruction of the unbelieving majority that occured much later than the actual birth of the child.

When a prophecy is fulfilled, that fulfilling event may itself become a prophecy, pointing to another, more final and complete fulfillment. The same thing is true of Daniel’s prophecy. Although it has been fulfilled already, before Christ and during his advent, these events point to the final fulfillment of history when Christ returns. “Antichrists” like Antiochus and Nero foreshadow the one, final antichrist who will embody and perfect all of their evils.

 

[ryanoneil]

**I believe Dan 7:22 has not taken place. The “Ancient of days” = God, has not come- the Ancient of days is still seated ( Dan. 7:9), " judgement was made", Judgement has not taken place, " saints to posses the kingdom" - the saints have not possesed the kingdom yet **

written with love

The judgment of unfaithful Israel and the Temple in 70 A.D. is the initial fulfillment (and the eventual fall of Rome). Christ ascended to the father in Dan 7:13. At the end of the generation came God’s judgment (which Christ warned about in Mt 23-25). With the clearing away of the Old Covenant world, the faithful remnant are in possesion of the kingdom in the New Covenant. All of it was initially fulfilled but is not the final fulfillment. The first century fulfillment prefigures and points forward to Christ’s second coming in glory.

 

[barboza21]

Hi bar
No there is nothing that you said that has offended me. The fact is that I believe that I have come down with a touch of pneumonia and I’m having a hard time maintaining a vertical position much less wrap my brain around some of the questions you pose. I think that we were wandering too far off the thread coarse anyway. BTTG seems to have a handle on what this prophecy is all about. Perhaps you could direct your queries to him. I will in the future attempt to bring an overview of the prophecies of Dan 2,7,8,9 and how they tie into the book of Rev.and are germaine right up until the present day. Which I believe looking at bible indicators is the end time for planet earth. I have some healing to do first tho. BTW why would you think that because I stopped posting on this forum for a time that I stopped seeking the truth? Just wondering.

HEY! I thought I had lost you. I thought I had done something you didn’t like. I’m glad it wasnt that way.

Well simply because you were no longer interested in being ingaged in a conversation about the truth. About what we believe to be the truth and the conclusions we could draw up.

I sincerely hope you get better. May God bless you.

So I’m guessing you will (once you get better) summarize your beliefs but you just don’t want to continue this thread? May I ask why?

 

[benidict]

Ryanoneil, BTTG. you two ought to write a book. Fascinating insights from both of you.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryanoneil, BTTG. you two ought to write a book. Fascinating insights from both of you.

If I was a better illustrator I’d make a graphic novel. My ideas are all recycled, so I think a large comic book would be unique.

 

[BTTG]

Ryanoneil, BTTG. you two ought to write a book. Fascinating insights from both of you.

I humbly thank you, however, all the glory goes to God. Looking back only 2 years ago, I would NEVER think that I would be so interested in learning about the love and power of our God and sharing to others what I have learned. Praise God.

 

[BTTG]

HEY! I thought I had lost you. I thought I had done something you didn’t like. I’m glad it wasnt that way.

Do not want to intrude on your conversation, but if I may add my 2 cents.

(Dan 7:3)
And four great beasts (kingdoms/empires) came up from the sea (nation), each different from the other.

(Dan 7:4)
The first was like a lion(babalyon 604 BC- 586 BC) , and had eagle’s wings (will move very swift). I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

(Dan 7:5)
"And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear ( Medio-Persia, 539 BC-331 BC). It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs (3 provinces - Babalyon, Lydia, Egypt) in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

(Dan 7:6)
"After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard ( Greece , 331 BC – 168 BC), which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads ( Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece – 4 dominant kingdoms after Alexander the great)), and dominion was given to it.

(Dan 7:7)
"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast (Rome, 168 BC – AD 476), dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong ( Rome was very strong) Dan. 7:23 and 2:40 states that “the fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth”. Rome was the 4th kingdom on earth after Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece. It had huge iron( iron=very symbolic of Roman empire) teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different/diverse from all the beasts that were before it ( all the other beast were purely political power – this one would be different, it had political and religious power) , and it had ten horns (see post #145). – these 10 kingdoms have to come from Rome as Rome had the 10 horns and Rome was divided in AD 476. These also are the 10 toes in Dan.2. Seven of these kingdoms still exist today.

(Dan 7:8)
I was considering the horns, and there was another horn (kingdom), a little one ( this kingdom was smaller in size then all the other 10 horns), coming up among them ( in AD 538 a kingdom arose), before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots ( this little horn (kingdom) was coming up before the three ( these 3 were “plucked” in the years(AD) ; Heruli (493), Vandels (534) and Ostergoths (538)) were plucked.) And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man ( system based on human, rather then divine; a man would be at the head), and a mouth speaking pompous words.

(Dan 7:9)
"I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days( God) was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

(Dan 7:21)
"I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

(Dan 7:22)
until the Ancient of Days came ( the little horn continued until the ancient days came/ second coming of Christ), and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

(Dan 7:24)
a repeat of previously discussed horns

(Dan 7:25)
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law
(times in Aramaic denotes “fixed time”), law - could be human , or divine , believe it will be God’s commandments, because this is a religious battle with satan and the saints shall be persecuted – if it were man’s laws, many people follow man’s laws who are not righteous – this whole verse is about a religious conflict). Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time ( this is for a whole new thread)

Note that this 4th beast, is the same beast in Rev.13:1- this same beast works through and is represented in Rev 12:3 as the red dragon.

Therefore, from the first ( 604 BC) beast through to and including end of the the 4th beast (476 AD) is about 1,000 years. Therefore, Dan 8:14 has to be 2, 300 literal years, for it is longer then 2,300 days.

written with love

 

[ryanoneil]

(Dan 7:3)
And four great beasts (kingdoms/empires) came up from the sea (nation), each different from the other.

(Dan 7:4)
The first was like a lion(babalyon 604 BC- 586 BC) , and had eagle’s wings (will move very swift). I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it.

(Dan 7:5)
"And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear ( Medio-Persia, 539 BC-331 BC). It was raised up on one side, and had three ribs (3 provinces - Babalyon, Lydia, Egypt) in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’

(Dan 7:6)
"After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard ( Greece , 331 BC – 168 BC), which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads ( Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Greece – 4 dominant kingdoms after Alexander the great)), and dominion was given to it.

(Dan 7:7)
"After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast (Rome, 168 BC – AD 476), dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong ( Rome was very strong) Dan. 7:23 and 2:40 states that “the fourth beast shall be a fourth kingdom on earth”. Rome was the 4th kingdom on earth after Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece. It had huge iron( iron=very symbolic of Roman empire) teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different/diverse from all the beasts that were before it ( all the other beast were purely political power – this one would be different, it had political and religious power) , and it had ten horns (see post #145). – these 10 kingdoms have to come from Rome as Rome had the 10 horns and Rome was divided in AD 476. These also are the 10 toes in Dan.2. Seven of these kingdoms still exist today.

(Dan 7:8)
I was considering the horns, and there was another horn (kingdom), a little one ( this kingdom was smaller in size then all the other 10 horns), coming up among them ( in AD 538 a kingdom arose), before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots ( this little horn (kingdom) was coming up before the three ( these 3 were “plucked” in the years(AD) ; Heruli (493), Vandels (534) and Ostergoths (538)) were plucked.) And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man ( system based on human, rather then divine; a man would be at the head), and a mouth speaking pompous words.

(Dan 7:9)
"I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days( God) was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

(Dan 7:21)
"I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,

(Dan 7:22)
until the Ancient of Days came ( the little horn continued until the ancient days came/ second coming of Christ), and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

(Dan 7:24)
a repeat of previously discussed horns

(Dan 7:25)
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law
(times in Aramaic denotes “fixed time”), law - could be human , or divine , believe it will be God’s commandments, because this is a religious battle with satan and the saints shall be persecuted – if it were man’s laws, many people follow man’s laws who are not righteous – this whole verse is about a religious conflict). Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time ( this is for a whole new thread)

Note that this 4th beast, is the same beast in Rev.13:1- this same beast works through and is represented in Rev 12:3 as the red dragon.

Therefore, from the first ( 604 BC) beast through to and including end of the the 4th beast (476 AD) is about 1,000 years. Therefore, Dan 8:14 has to be 2, 300 literal years, for it is longer then 2,300 days.

written with love

Why extend the vision past when the 4th beast disappears? The statue and four beasts are supplanted by the everlasting dominion of Christ. During the 4th empire the stone struck the image and became a great mountain that filled the whole earth (Dan 3:34-35) Meaning, while the 4th kingdom is still in existence the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. . . it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever (Dan 2:44)

I don’t think the text can be made to support anything past Rome, and it is a mental stretch to say that Rome still exists to this present day. It is long gone. Christ set up his kingdom the Church at the end of his first advent. The Messiah and his kingdom came during the 4th kingdom, when Rome ruled over Jerusalem. His kingdom would grow to encompass the whole earth and would last forever.

The events that Daniel describes take about six hundred years to unfold. The cross of Christ actually killed the beasts. What followed was the beast not taking it’s own destruction lying down. This is the intial fulfillment. Does it point to the second coming of Christ? Yes! But the kingdom is already here, just not in it’s perfection. That will happen when Christ returns in glory at the end of time.

 

[ryanoneil]

Note that this 4th beast, is the same beast in Rev.13:1- this same beast works through and is represented in Rev 12:3 as the red dragon.

Therefore, from the first ( 604 BC) beast through to and including end of the the 4th beast (476 AD) is about 1,000 years. Therefore, Dan 8:14 has to be 2, 300 literal years, for it is longer then 2,300 days.

written with love

Its power extended to the host of heaven, so that it cast down to earth some of the host and some of the stars and trampled on them. It boasted even against the prince of the host, from whom it removed the daily sacrifice, and whose sanctuary it cast down, as well as the host, while sin replaced the daily sacrifice. It cast truth to the ground, and was succeeding in its undertaking. I heard a holy one speaking, and another said to whichever one it was that spoke, “How long shall the events of this vision last concerning the daily sacrifice, the desolating sin which is placed there, the sanctuary, and the trampled host?” He answered him, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be purified.”

So what year do you start counting and what year to you finish counting the 2,300 years?

Thanks

 

[BTTG]

Why extend the vision past when the 4th beast disappears? The statue and four beasts are supplanted by the everlasting dominion of Christ. During the 4th empire the stone struck the image and became a great mountain that filled the whole earth (Dan 3:34-35) Meaning, while the 4th kingdom is still in existence the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. . . it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever (Dan 2:44)

**Response - The vision does extends beyond the 4th beast ( Rome). In Dan. 2:33 (Dan 2:33) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Dan 2:34) Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Notice in both verses it reads " feet part of iron and clay". And the stone smote the feet. These feet are the 10 toes of the image in Dan. 2:41 - “… you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron”. After the Roman kingdom dynasty; these ten toes represent Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli.

These 10 toes are the same ten kings/horns in Dan. 8:24. The “another shall rise after them” is the little horn which remains until God sets up His kingdom on earth ( Dan.8:25-27)

Seven of these kingdoms still exist today. However, throughout history these 7 kingdoms will never join together. Hitler, Stalin and others tried to join them together ( they should have read their bible) - see Dan. 2:43.

In the days of these 7 kingdoms… (Dan 2:44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So Daniel’s vision of the statue extends down to the second coming of Jesus.

written with love

**

 

[LiftHimUp]

ryanoneil;7636498:

Why extend the vision past when the 4th beast disappears? The statue and four beasts are supplanted by the everlasting dominion of Christ. During the 4th empire the stone struck the image and became a great mountain that filled the whole earth (Dan 3:34-35) Meaning, while the 4th kingdom is still in existence the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. . . it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever (Dan 2:44)

**Response - The vision does extends beyond the 4th beast ( Rome). In Dan. 2:33 (Dan 2:33) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Dan 2:34) Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Notice in both verses it reads " feet part of iron and clay". And the stone smote the feet. These feet are the 10 toes of the image in Dan. 2:41 - “… you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron”. After the Roman kingdom dynasty; these ten toes represent Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli.

These 10 toes are the same ten kings/horns in Dan. 8:24. The “another shall rise after them” is the little horn which remains until God sets up His kingdom on earth ( Dan.8:25-27)

Seven of these kingdoms still exist today. However, throughout history these 7 kingdoms will never join together. Hitler, Stalin and others tried to join them together ( they should have read their bible) - see Dan. 2:43.

In the days of these 7 kingdoms… (Dan 2:44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So Daniel’s vision of the statue extends down to the second coming of Jesus.

written with love

**

Have you ever read “Daniel and the Revelation” by Uriah Smith? If not, please check it out. It will also help with your Ancient of Days argument. It’s a little different than you think it is.