What does Daniel 8:13,14 mean?

[ryanoneil]

**Response - The vision does extends beyond the 4th beast ( Rome). In Dan. 2:33 (Dan 2:33) His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Dan 2:34) Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Notice in both verses it reads " feet part of iron and clay". And the stone smote the feet. These feet are the 10 toes of the image in Dan. 2:41 - “… you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron”. After the Roman kingdom dynasty; these ten toes represent Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli.

These 10 toes are the same ten kings/horns in Dan. 8:24. The “another shall rise after them” is the little horn which remains until God sets up His kingdom on earth ( Dan.8:25-27)

Seven of these kingdoms still exist today. However, throughout history these 7 kingdoms will never join together. Hitler, Stalin and others tried to join them together ( they should have read their bible) - see Dan. 2:43.

In the days of these 7 kingdoms… (Dan 2:44) And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

So Daniel’s vision of the statue extends down to the second coming of Jesus.

written with love

**

Daniel is clear in his interpretation of the dream that iron legs and the iron-and-clay feet are one and the same kingdom. “There shall be a fourth kingdom. . .means that it shall be a divided kingdom” (2:40-41). If they never join together they are not a kingdom. It stretches logic to the breaking point that if they are in the same geographical area, they are considerd one and the same- even if they are separated by centuries. The ten horns alternate between being a symbol of the ten provinces of the empire and being a symbol of specific people. There were ten Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity.

The iron and clay symbolizes the strength, yet brittleness, of the fourth kingdom. “and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay” (Dan 2:42-43). St. Jerome who lived in the Roman empire wrote, “Just as there was at the first nothing stronger and hardier than the Roman realm, so in these last days, there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of barbarian tribes”.

During the fourth empire, “a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces” (Dan 2:34). But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" (Dan 2:35). While the fourth kingdom is still in existence, 'In the lifetime of those kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destoyed. . . it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever" (2:44)

This does not describe the future in the intial sense. It describes events during the Roman empire, even though it points to the return of Christ. Christ was given dominion and glory and kingdom when he ascended to heaven (Dan 7:13-14). He took the kingdom away from the Sanhedrin and gave it to his New Covenant people (Mt 21:33-45). The stone that the builders rejected became the cornerstone and judgment came within a generation (Mt 23:36; 24:34). The stone was already growing into a mountain in the first century. The kingdom started off the size of a mustard seed and has been growing into the greatest of shrubs ever since. (Mt 13:31-32). The coming of the kingdom has always been associated with the Advent of Christ. The perfection of the kingdom is associated with Christ’s second coming. The earthly evidence of the heavenly kingdom is Christ’s Church. The kingdom started with the advent of Christ when he sowed good seed in his field (Mt 13:24-30).

The verses you have cited above have already been fulfilled. God’s judment came at the end of the Old Covenant age with the Dawning of the New Covenant. This initial fulfillment (which Daniel has in mind) points to Christ’s second coming. Does Christ and his people still have enemies? Yes! But the kingdom has started and Christ must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Cor 15:25)

 

[barboza21]

Someone might say, “Well why should the things in heaven need any cleansing?” Well, it’s a good question, friends, and it has a good Bible answer too. Let’s notice something now in Hebrews 8:1, 2, “Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.” Now notice when Jesus went back to heaven, friends, he went as our high priest right into that heavenly throne room or into that sanctuary above. He went as our intercessor. Notice how it was foreshadowed by the earthly type which Moses had built for the Jews. We read in Hebrews 9 from verse 2 and onward describing that earthly one which had been copied from the true sanctuary in heaven, "For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercy seat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of his people: The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:"

so Jesus sitting at the right hand of the father is the first compartment. Which is the second? That’s what I’m trying to understand.

 

[ryanoneil]

For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. (Heb 9:24-26)

Christ appeared once for all in the Holy of Holies unlike the cycle of priests who did it year after year. Jesus gave consent to death to death, not only to seal a new covenant with the world, but also to deal with the unfinished business of the old covenant broken by Israel.

For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. (Heb 9:15-17)

God mercifully allowed Israel to live even though the nation placed itself under the curse of death when it broke the covenant. The annual Day of Atonement was instituted to hold the curse of death at bay until such time as God would deal with the transgressions of his people in a difinitive way (which is exactly what Christ did). He took the curse on himself, finally putting the sanctions of the Mosaic covenant into full effect and bringing it all to an end. The heavenly equivalent has already taken place.

 

[BTTG]

BTTG;7638116:

Have you ever read “Daniel and the Revelation” by Uriah Smith? If not, please check it out. It will also help with your Ancient of Days argument. It’s a little different than you think it is.

Thank you, when I get a chance I will look it up.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Daniel is clear in his interpretation of the dream that iron legs and the iron-and-clay feet are one and the same kingdom. “There shall be a fourth kingdom. . .means that it shall be a divided kingdom” (2:40-41). If they never join together they are not a kingdom. It stretches logic to the breaking point that if they are in the same geographical area, they are considerd one and the same- even if they are separated by centuries. The ten horns alternate between being a symbol of the ten provinces of the empire and being a symbol of specific people. There were ten Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity.

**Response - As we start with the head of Gold = babylon, we progress through history of the kingdoms. History tells us that the kingdom that came after Greece= chest and arms, being of legs of iron was Rome. Verse 40 is talking about iron and verse 41 about feet and toes. Notice that value of the metals is in descending order from gold to iron and clay. At the breakup of imperial Rome, the pieces remained. The iron was a continuation of the civil government of the legs. Rome, at the end of its imperial power transformed into papal Rome in collaboration with the various kingdoms of Europe a church and state union.

You stated " There were ten Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity."
Who are the 10 ? What little horn " subdued three kings"/ who are the 3 kings? According to scripture this had to happen around AD 450.**

The iron and clay symbolizes the strength, yet brittleness, of the fourth kingdom. “and the toes partly iron and partly tile, the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. The iron mixed with clay tile means that they shall seal their alliances by intermarriage, but they shall not stay united, any more than iron mixes with clay” (Dan 2:42-43). St. Jerome who lived in the Roman empire wrote, “Just as there was at the first nothing stronger and hardier than the Roman realm, so in these last days, there is nothing more feeble, since we require the assistance of barbarian tribes”.

**Response - The clay resembles that Rome had lost its iron strength and its successors were weak like the mixer of iron and clay. When we mix iron with clay it does not adhere. The 10 kingdoms after Rome, some were partly strong= barbarian tribes of Franks, Visigoths, and other kingdoms “were fragile”. **

During the fourth empire, “a stone which was hewn from a mountain without a hand being put to it, struck its iron and tile feet, breaking them in pieces” (Dan 2:34). But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" (Dan 2:35). While the fourth kingdom is still in existence, 'In the lifetime of those kings the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destoyed. . . it shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever" (2:44)

**Response- I see that the Fourth kingdom ( Rome) of iron, is separate from the feet and toes. Rome was the 4th kingdom on earth. ( 10) .

Dan.8:24 - The 10 horns/kings= 10 toes “shall arise from” the 4th beast. The 10 kingdoms as previously mentioned in a thread , arise from Rome. **

written with love

 

[BTTG]

For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. Not that he might offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters each year into the sanctuary with blood that is not his own; if that were so, he would have had to suffer repeatedly from the foundation of the world. But now once for all he has appeared at the end of the ages to take away sin by his sacrifice. (Heb 9:24-26)

Christ appeared once for all in the Holy of Holies unlike the cycle of priests who did it year after year. Jesus gave consent to death to death, not only to seal a new covenant with the world, but also to deal with the unfinished business of the old covenant broken by Israel.

For this reason he is mediator of a new covenant: since a death has taken place for deliverance from transgressions under the first covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. Now where there is a will, the death of the testator must be established. For a will takes effect only at death; it has no force while the testator is alive. (Heb 9:15-17)

B]Response - The verse above shows us that the covenant that Jesus made of having the law ( 10 commandments) written in our hearts and in our minds cannot be altered after his death, thus the true Sabbath ( Saturday) day cannot be altered from the “original” ten commandments, to another day ( Sunday).

written with love

 

[BTTG]

so Jesus sitting at the right hand of the father is the first compartment. Which is the second? That’s what I’m trying to understand.

The second is the most holy place,… (Exo 26:33) And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Am I correct so far:

Head = lion = Babylon ( 605 -539 BC )

Chest = bear = ram = medo-persia ( 539-331 BC)

thighs= leopard= goat = Greece ( 331-168 BC )

4th beast =

10 horns/kings =

 

[Peter_John]

The second is the most holy place,… (Exo 26:33) And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

written with love

Based on this decription and the comment to which it responds, it sounds like the second compartment could be Mary.

 

[LiftHimUp]

Based on this decription and the comment to which it responds, it sounds like the second compartment could be Mary.

If this is what it sounds like to you then use scripture to prove it.

 

[Peter_John]

If this is what it sounds like to you then use scripture to prove it.

Let me see if any of the Catholics who have been following this thread and are better informed than myself agree – I was just basing this on specific reference to the last couple of posts. Otherwise, I will find a few references to support mt remarks within this limited context. i am not certain how it will fit in with the rest of the discussion If someone well enough versed in the rest of the thread can relate it to that, that would be best.

 

[AWHN]

…Or…are you referring instead to the Little Horn in Daniel - which Adventist say is the Whore of Babylon, the Catholic Church?

USCCB writes of that: " [9] A little horn, as in Daniel 7 is Antiochus IV. The glorious country: Palestine."

Hi,

It is impossible, both by scripture and history, for the “little horn” of Daniel to be “Antiochus Epiphanes IV” for numerous reasons.

Would you like to look at these reasons?

We should know the TRUTH for ourselves.

 

[LiftHimUp]

Hi,

It is impossible, both by scripture and history, for the “little horn” of Daniel to be “Antiochus Epiphanes IV” for numerous reasons.

Would you like to look at these reasons?

We should know the TRUTH for ourselves.

Please watch your words carefully. The mods may ban you. Please stick to scripture and let people see for themselves the truth that the scriptures and history reveal.

 

[benidict]

If this is what it sounds like to you then use scripture to prove it.

I believe scriptural evidence for the Ark of the Covenant typifying Mary has been given many times on this forum in various places my friend. Would you like them rehashed yet again? It is not that there is no scriptural evidence for this. Its that no matter how much evidence your receive, you will not believe. I do not blame you for this. It takes the Holy Spirit to open ones eyes to this truth. you just may not be ready yet. Peace

 

[benidict]

Let me see if any of the Catholics who have been following this thread and are better informed than myself agree – I was just basing this on specific reference to the last couple of posts. Otherwise, I will find a few references to support mt remarks within this limited context. i am not certain how it will fit in with the rest of the discussion If someone well enough versed in the rest of the thread can relate it to that, that would be best.

Hi Peter John. when John in the book of Revelation looked into the temple of the Lord, what did he see? He saw the Ark of the Covenant. Was this the Ark of wood and gold he saw? No, for we see in the very next verse, the Ark was a Woman. Remember that when the scriptures were written, they were written without chapter and verse. It really does not matter though. What was in the Ark in the time of Moses? the Manna, The rod/staff of Aarron, And the Tablets of the Law. Who did Mary carry in her womb? The True Bread from Heaven, Our High Priest. The Giver of The Law. Like the Ark of the old testament. Mary also spent 3 months in the hill country of Judea. there are so many paralels that It is imposible NOT to believe that Mary is Who was typified by the Ark of the Covenant. I saw this before my conversion to Catholicism. The Church only confirmed what I had already received. Peace

 

[benidict]

If this is what it sounds like to you then use scripture to prove it.

Im just going to wait for a little more clarification, then I will be happy to use scripture to prove what ever you like. Is it the Ark typifying Mary you would like scriptural evidence on, or has it something to do with the Holy of Holies. I can help you with the first easily enough. The second, no. Peace

 

[ryanoneil]

Daniel is clear in his interpretation of the dream that iron legs and the iron-and-clay feet are one and the same kingdom. “There shall be a fourth kingdom. . .means that it shall be a divided kingdom” (2:40-41). If they never join together they are not a kingdom. It stretches logic to the breaking point that if they are in the same geographical area, they are considerd one and the same- even if they are separated by centuries. The ten horns alternate between being a symbol of the ten provinces of the empire and being a symbol of specific people. There were ten Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity.

**Response - As we start with the head of Gold = babylon, we progress through history of the kingdoms. History tells us that the kingdom that came after Greece= chest and arms, being of legs of iron was Rome. Verse 40 is talking about iron and verse 41 about feet and toes. Notice that value of the metals is in descending order from gold to iron and clay. At the breakup of imperial Rome, the pieces remained. The iron was a continuation of the civil government of the legs. Rome, at the end of its imperial power transformed into papal Rome in collaboration with the various kingdoms of Europe a church and state union.

You stated " There were ten Caesars who persecuted the Church with varying intensity."
Who are the 10 ?**
1.Nero (64 A.D.)
2.Domitian (c.90-96)
3.Trajan (98-117)
4.Hadrian (117-138)
5.Marcus Aurelius (161-181)
6.Septimus Severus (202-211)
7.Maximus the Thracian (235-251)
8.Decius (249-251)
9.Valerian (257-260)
10.Diocletian / Galerius (303-311)

What little horn " subdued three kings"/ who are the 3 kings? According to scripture this had to happen around AD 450.

Your tradition assumes scripture says something about 450 A.D.

There is general agreement among modern scholars that the four beasts represent Babylonia, Medes, Persia, and Alexander’s Greek empire. The ten horns represent the kings from Alexander on through the Seleucid kingdom:

1.Alexander the Great
2.Seleucus I Nicator,
3.Antiochus I Soter,
4.Antiochus II Theos,
5.Seleucus II Callinicus,
6.Seleucus III Ceraunus,
7.Antiochus III the Great,
8.Seleucus IV Philopator, (assassinated by the following)
9.Heliodorus,
10.Seleucus IV’s infant son Antiochus (puppet for Heliodorus).

The last three “horns” had to fall to make way for the “little horn” Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his arrival on the throne, effectively by usurpation. Daniel 7:25 is a reference to the persecutions of Antiochus, his suppression of the Jewish religion, and his attempt to force the Jews to adopt the Greek customs. This would be the intial fulfillment.

Christ applied Daniel to his generation. Nero would be the little horn in that scenario. The Hebrew word used for kings in melek. The most common translation is king, but it can be translated as royal. In Nero’s case, the murder of Agrippina (mother), Octavia (Nero’s wife and stepsister who was daughter of Claudius), and Britannicus (son of Claudius) would be the fulfillment.

**Response - The clay resembles that Rome had lost its iron strength and its successors were weak like the mixer of iron and clay. When we mix iron with clay it does not adhere. The 10 kingdoms after Rome, some were partly strong= barbarian tribes of Franks, Visigoths, and other kingdoms “were fragile”. **

I see that the Fourth kingdom ( Rome) of iron, is separate from the feet and toes. Rome was the 4th kingdom on earth. ( 10) .

Dan.8:24 - The 10 horns/kings= 10 toes “shall arise from” the 4th beast. The 10 kingdoms as previously mentioned in a thread , arise from Rome.

written with love
I don’t see the feet and toes seperate. But if you are right, why do you think these kingdoms exist to this day?

 

[BTTG]

1.Nero (64 A.D.)
2.Domitian (c.90-96)
3.Trajan (98-117)
4.Hadrian (117-138)
5.Marcus Aurelius (161-181)
6.Septimus Severus (202-211)
7.Maximus the Thracian (235-251)
8.Decius (249-251)
9.Valerian (257-260)
10.Diocletian / Galerius (303-311)

Your tradition assumes scripture says something about 450 A.D.

**The 4th beast, or kingdom of Rome concludes in 476 AD . The little horn has to come up after 476 AD ( because the little horn came up among the 10 horns- Dan. 7:8) and before 538 AD ( before whom the three horns was plucked- Dan.7:8. Therefore, the little horn came up between 476 and 538 AD. **

]There is general agreement among modern scholars that the four beasts represent Babylonia, Medes, Persia, and Alexander’s Greek empire. The ten horns represent the kings from Alexander on through the Seleucid kingdom:

**With due respect, Scholars must prove it biblically. We know by history that scholars can be wrong. The bible tells us that Medes and Persia are “one” kingdom in the chest and arms. This kingdom is further identified in dan. 8:3 and 21 where the “ram” is Media and Persia. In Dan. prophecy of the statue and the identifying symbolism of the animals, the Medes and Persia are not 2 different kingdoms, but one kingdom. **

1.Alexander the Great
2.Seleucus I Nicator,
3.Antiochus I Soter,
4.Antiochus II Theos,
5.Seleucus II Callinicus,
6.Seleucus III Ceraunus,
7.Antiochus III the Great,
8.Seleucus IV Philopator, (assassinated by the following)
9.Heliodorus,
10.Seleucus IV’s infant son Antiochus (puppet for Heliodorus).

The last three “horns” had to fall to make way for the “little horn” Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his arrival on the throne, effectively by usurpation. Daniel 7:25 is a reference to the persecutions of Antiochus, his suppression of the Jewish religion, and his attempt to force the Jews to adopt the Greek customs. This would be the intial fulfillment.

Christ applied Daniel to his generation. Nero would be the little horn in that scenario. The Hebrew word used for kings in melek. The most common translation is king, but it can be translated as royal. In Nero’s case, the murder of Agrippina (mother), Octavia (Nero’s wife and stepsister who was daughter of Claudius), and Britannicus (son of Claudius) would be the fulfillment.

However, the “same” little horn is to continue until " the Ancient of Days came… and until the saints posses the kingdom ( new Jerusalem in heaven)

I don’t see the feet and toes seperate. But if you are right, why do you think these kingdoms exist to this day?

**Response - In a previous post, I mentioned that the 10 toes/horns were Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli.

The three that were uprooted ( never to form again) were the Vandels, Ostrogoeths and Heruli. The other seven remain today, and I believe will so, until the second coming and will not cleave together ( form a union). **

**In Dan 7 who is the lion, bear, leopard and forth beast ?

In Dan. 8 who is the ram and goat**

written with love

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry I have not responded sooner.

**Response - In a previous post, I mentioned that the 10 toes/horns were Vandels, Ostrogeoths, Lombards( Italy), Franks ( French) , Huns ( Germany) , Sueivi ( Portugal) , Bureundians ( Switzerland), Saxons ( England), Visigeoths (Spain), Heruli.

The three that were uprooted ( never to form again) were the Vandels, Ostrogoeths and Heruli. The other seven remain today, and I believe will so, until the second coming and will not cleave together ( form a union). **

**In Dan 7 who is the lion, bear, leopard and forth beast ?

In Dan. 8 who is the ram and goat**

written with love

The two-horned ram represents the combined kingdom of the Medes and Persians, destroyed by the goat of Alexander’s Hellenistic empire. His succesors were Seleucus, Antigonus, Philip, and Ptolemeus. Antiochus the little horn came out of Seleucus.

The he-goat became very powerful, but at the height of its power the great horn was shattered, and in its place came up four others, facing the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came a little horn which kept growing toward the south, the east, and the glorious country. (Dan 8:8-9)

In Daniel 7 it depends if you are talking about initial or later fulfillment. Initially it is lion Babylonian, bear Median, leopard Persian, fouth Greek.

The four heads of the leopard are Cyrus and three kings that follow. **Now I shall tell you the truth. "Three kings of Persia are yet to come; and a fourth shall acquire the greatest riches of all. Strengthened by his riches, he shall rouse all the kingdom of Greece. (Dan 11:2) **

More substantially in Christ’s fulfillment the bear is Medo-Persia, the leopard is Greek, and the fourth is Rome.

You are thinking in terms of either or instead of both and. I’m not even against the possibility of a final fulfillment of Daniel, except when people don’t recognize the initial fulfillment before and at the time of Christ. All I’m saying is: don’t think the futurist interpretation is so rock solid to not include the other senses of scripture.

Obviously there were more nations/tribes who were within the borders of the Western Roman Empire (including the three you say were uprooted). Secondly, the countries today were NOT the same countries or nations that were around in the days of the Empire. Borders were completely different, and people were completely different. The Spanish and French did not even exist (as single entities) so could not make up an existing horn of a beast. Also, Italy would be more than one country, because at that time and for a long time afterwards, they were made up of the Venetians, the Lombards, and the Italians/Romans themselves. And if you want to include Switzerland (the Helvetians), a very minor group in those times, you have to include the more prominent Belgium (made up of the Flemings and the Belgians) as well - they were part of the Western Empire just as much as the rest of the countries were.

I’m just saying the futurist view is not the only legitimate one.

 

[barboza21]

The second is the most holy place,… (Exo 26:33) And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.

written with love

Yes. i know that sitting at the right hand of the father is the holy place. and the most holy place is… what? What/where is the most holy place in Heaven?

We know how a holy and most holy place in earthly sanctuary would be… but heaven?