What does God know?

[whatistrue]

It is a common philosophical argument used by atheists:

Ah. An old, tired, nonsensical argument does not make for an unresolvable dilemma. I see no point in continuing. Muting thread.

 

[IWantGod]

That is not the problem.

It is the problem. You are saying that divine knowledge is a cause/determiner of human choices.

The problem is that if there IS a knower, there is no free will.

Again you are asserting a problem where there is none. God knowing what i will choose means that i will not choose differently from what God knows, but it doesn’t mean that i am being forced to choose anything. God simply knows what i will freely choose.

If i were to stand outside of time, i would be able to see every choice you will ever make all at once. But that doesn’t mean that you didn’t freely make those choices. You haven’t demonstrated that omniscience is the cause of the choice.

 

[Gorgias]

God’s knowing does not CAUSE you to not have free will, God’s knowing MEANS you do not have free will.

OK, then. That’s an interesting tack to take. If the effect is “no free will”, what’s its cause? You’ve already said that its cause isn’t “God’s knowing”. What does cause the lack of free will, then?

 

[Chistian-ity]

That post was quite helpful. The way I understand it now is that it’s not that God can see the fate of a soul before he created it and then not create it because that would never exist hence he could never know it. Additionally, it would be a violation to his position outside of time.

 

[Latin]

Can God know the state of our eternal salvation/damnation before it has happened for us?

Yes, God knows the state of our eternal salvation/damnation before it has happened for us.

.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)

.
God Disigned, Decreed, Preordained from all eternity and orders every event in the universe, includes every our good act and every act of our sins.

Our fates/ destinies is not in us but IT IS IN GOD.
.
As we see above, God is not only know the state of our eternal salvation/damnation before it has happened for us, but He Disigned, Decreed, Preordained it from all eternity and He orders every event/ act in all our life. – Be joyful because our fate/ destiny is not in us but IT IS IN GOD

Can he know what our response will be to things before they happen?

Yes, He Disigned, Decreed, Preordained our responses from all eternity and orders every event/ act/ responses in all our life as follows:

CCC 308 "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
CCC 2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”
.
God’s will is the cause of all things, every event that happen or will happen in the universe.
.
Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
.
History is not just what He sees will be, but is what He causes to be , especially in every aspect of the redemptive process.
.
God bless

 

[Joanoflark]

God foreknows all events, predestinates certain (but not all) events, and is not responsible for sin and evil.
1 Samuel 23:1-14 for further study.
“God may have predestinated events that actually happen-but he also may not have. There is no necessary link between foreknowledge and predestination. We don’t know if an event that happens was predestinated on the basis of God’s foreknowing it. God would have to tell us he predestinated an event for us to be sure he did that. Scripture does tell us God predestinates some events.” (Michael Heiser)

 

[IWantGod]

omniscience does not CAUSE the issue - it is incompatible with free will.

But if you are correct then omniscience does cause the issue. You are basically saying that God’s knowledge of our future prevents us from acting freely. A consequence of this is that God’s knowledge of our actions is also a cause of those actions since we are not choosing anything but are only doing anything because God knows it.

Again, you have not demonstrated that God’s knowledge of our choices is the cause of our choices. If God’s omniscience is not the cause of our choices, then what is to say that we are not the cause of our own choices?

There is no incompatibility once you understand what it means for God to know the future.

 

[Latin]

If “Aided Free Will” is an official doctrine … can you post references?

First, it is good to know the differences between LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL and AIDED FREE WILL.
.
LIBERTARIAN FREE WILL

Libertarian free will is basically the concept that, metaphysically and morally, man is an autonomous being, one who operates independently, not controlled by others or by outside forces.

Only God has Libertarian Free will as follows, no one else.

Eph.1:11; In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
We have Aided Free will as follows, which is De fide dogmas and Official teachings of the Catholic Church.
.
AIDED FREE WILL

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott;

For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary, (De fide).
.
Fallen man cannot redeem himself, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility to save ALL OF US.
.
Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification, (De fide). – It is God’s responsibility TO KEEP US SAVED by His grace of Final Perseverance.
.
There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
.
Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
.
2022; The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man.
.
The above teachings of the Church explains our Aided Free wills.
.
As we see above, God is the CREATOR, CAUSER/ DETERMINER of our Aided Free wills, and we all freely will and freely choose what God wills us to will and God wills us to choose. – CCC 307, etc.
.
As described above, our willing and choosing always in line with God’s will. – So, who is going to hell? Could not be anyone.
.
God bless

 

[Aulef]

God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence.

God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future.

By the knowledge of vision God also foresees the future free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty.

God also knows the conditioned future free actions with infallible certainty.

 

[Latin]

Of course God knows all our free actions, He Designed, Decreed, Foreordained from all eternity all our free actions and He orders us to carry out all our free actions. – CCC 307, CCC 308, Ez.36:27, Eph.2:10, etc.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit, VI, xxxii in “P.L.,”

.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.

Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen or will happen in the universe, all events (includes all our free good and bad actions) Designed by God from all eternity, Decreed and Foreordanined, NO CONDITION on them.
.
God bless

 

[Gorgias]

If you believe in free will, there cannot be an omniscient being. If you believe in an omniscient being, there cannot be free will.

You keep saying this, but baldly and without substantiation. This is the crux of your case: please explain and justify it. Otherwise, you’re just out there, tilting at windmills.

But if you are correct then omniscience does cause the issue.

Jan, this is why you need to explain your position. You are making a case that seems to require that God causes the lack of free will, but then state explicitly that it doesn’t. This inconsistency, I suspect, is why folks are scratching their heads at your assertions…

So… help us out! Why is God’s knowledge determinative, but not causal?

 

[Dan123]

Again, you have not demonstrated that God’s knowledge of our choices is the cause of our choices. If God’s omniscience is not the cause of our choices, then what is to say that we are not the cause of our own choices?

So… help us out! Why is God’s knowledge determinative, but not causal?

Without speaking for jan10000, I think the point may better be stated that if our decisions are knowable before we take them, that is incompatible with free will. For example even without an omniscient god, if the universe is deterministic then all future events are knowable, even if no actual being knows them. At least using the definitions of choice and free will that we commonly use.

Related to how I put it further upthread, and to catch it up to some of the points made; when God created Abraham he created him such that he would be willing to kill his own son for God. God could have made Abraham such that he would not be willing to kill his own son, he is after all all-powerful. By making the Abraham who would, instead of the Abraham who wouldn’t, the ability to know all future decisions combined with God deciding which souls to create and which to not; would seem to clarify jan10000’s position.

Do you feel the day and manner of your death are written in stone? God knew your whole life before you were born. Do you have the free will to change it?

 

[Gorgias]

Without speaking for jan10000, I think the point may better be stated that if our decisions are knowable before we take them, that is incompatible with free will.

You walk up to a ticket counter, holding cash in your hand. I know your decision is to buy a ticket. Have I caused your free will to be lost?

 

[Dan123]

When you say you ‘know’ do you mean in the human sense, that someone approaching a ticket counter is most likely purchasing a ticket, or do you know in the sense that you have perfect foresight of what decision I’d make before I made it?

In neither case did you cause my free will to be lost, I tried to clarify that above when I said the fact that it’s knowable is what could be argued suggests we don’t have free will in the sense we usually think of it, not a being actually knowing it.

Say I do have free will to buy the ticket or not. Do I still have free will to not buy the ticket after I buy it? No of course not, we live within time and a single decision can only be made once, in the moment. But when was that decision made, was it made temporally when I think it was made? Or was it made when God created me knowing I’d buy that ticket long before I was capable of making any decisions at all? Was it made when God chose to send the “me” that bought the ticket and not the “me” that didn’t buy the ticket. Surely God could have made me either way, right? But he only made one of me, not any other possible "me"s.

 

[Latin]

God created Abraham he created him such that he would be willing to kill his own son for God.

God could have made Abraham such that he would not be willing to kill his own son, he is after all all-powerful.

In my opinion, the above statements are the shortest and most intelligent and wisest statements I read.

The above two statement teaches more than hundreds of religious teaching books.

If someone understand the two above statements, understand theology, has total faith in God and doesn’t worry about hell.

Thank you Dan123.

.
A LONGER VERSION OF THE SAME ABOVE TEACHINGS

For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the "Divine will or power is called fate. "
But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God. Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.
.
The Divine will is cause of all things that happen, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.
.
The same is true for events in our lives. Relative to us they often appear to be by chance.
But relative to God, who directs everything according to his divine plan, nothing occurs by chance.
.
Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
.
God bless

 

[Gorgias]

If you read through the article, you will notice that every solution (including the Boethian one provided above) comes with major concessions regarding God’s omniscience.

Actually, the very first proposal (Aristotelian solution) resolves the problem, but in a way that misstates God and His existence in eternity. As part of its solution, it says " Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T , then T will become true."

There’s something of value, and something in error, in that statement:

• It is not true that “yesterday”, God believed something. This statement constrains God within a temporal framework, which is contradictory to what we know about God. He is eternal, and so His existence isn’t able to be packetized into discrete modules of time.
• the Aristotelian solution points out that, within our own construct of temporality, events become. It’s not that they are, in all units of time; rather, they occur and come to be. Therefore, an event that you choose – and which comes to be – is one freely chosen by you.

Both points hold up. The implication is that God knows that which is not yet. You don’t. So, you choose it, and it comes into existence.

I do not think it a problem to put some form of limits on God’s (fore)knowledge. Certainly this conflicts with Catholic doctrine, but I see no way around it.

And the “limit”, if you want to perceive of it in that way, is “no middle knowledge”. At least, that’s how I see it.

 

[EndTimes]

What does God know?

SINCE Knowledge Itself - has its Source in God
there can be nothing that God does not know.

That’s why He’s referred to as being eg. All-Knowing.

 

[Gorgias]

Perhaps you did not read the whole article, it points out that the Aristotelian solution doesn’t resolve the issue

I did. I’m disagreeing with in on the count that it mischaracterizes God and His eternal (i.e., non-temporal) existence.

Specifically, if you accept that solution, you must acknowledge that future contingent events do NOT have a truth value.

Nope. That’s the part I’m taking issue with. After all, for us, as humans, “future contingent events do not have a truth value”, but for God, who is not temporally bound, they do.

This gets to the heart of why this isn’t the dilemma you suggest it is. For humans, there is no ‘forced’ future. We get to make our decisions free of constraint. (That’s why there’s “free will.”) For God, there are known events. (That’s why He’s omniscient.) No dilemma arises.

Thus, you can claim God is omniscient, but God does not know what will happen in the future because no being could.

There’s no “future” for God; all is ‘present’ to Him.

Saying God is “outside” time doesn’t make any difference in the above - and introduces many,many problems.

It makes all the difference in the world.

Let’s take a look at the “problems” you perceive:

• “God is stateless”
  • In classical theological terminology, I think we’d say that God is immutable. He does not change (and He is not changed by anything).
  • However, this does not imply that “God cannot DO anything.” Again, we’d assert that God’s existence is one eternal act.
  • You ask “what was the ‘state’ of God before He created the universe?” That question, in itself, is problematic, and is worthy of a detailed discussion. Some salient points:
    • There’s no “before” in eternity, so the notion “before God created the universe” has no content/value. (If you want to ask this question within the context of the universe, you might get an answer, but not in the context of eternity.)
    • God doesn’t have varying states, so the answer is likewise unhelpful: God simply IS.
  • You ask “how could God have created the universe?”
    • Simply by willing it to exist.
  • You ask “how could [God] speak as he does in the Bible?”
    • It’s a figurative expression. Sometimes, the Bible anthropomorphizes God in order to help us, as humans, wrap our heads around His being and existence. In the creation story, God’s “speech” is a literary element meant to help move the narrative forward.
  • You ask “how could [God] become Jesus and live as a man on earth?”
    • The incarnation of Jesus is mysterious, and as an event that only occurs one time, defies comparison. The Church teaches that Jesus is fully man and fully God, with two natures (divine and human) in one person.

 

[Dan123]

That’s the part I’m taking issue with. After all, for us , as humans, “future contingent events do not have a truth value”, but for God, who is not temporally bound, they do .

So there is a truth value, we just can’t conceive it. That’s the point, the set of choices we can make for any given decision will always be “1”, the decision God knows we’ll make. The decision God knew we’d make when he sent us to Earth instead of sending anyone else instead.

 

[Gorgias]

Consider this example - I am giving my child a football tomorrow for his birthday. He does not know. The events of tomorrow, to him, have no truth value. But for me, I KNOW I will give him the football.

This doesn’t work very well as an analogy. You’re using a patently deterministic action on your part (“I’m giving him a football”) to illustrate what should be a decision on his part. No wonder your example points to the conclusion that it’s deterministic!

It’s also a difficult example since you, too, are human (and not omniscient). A better example might be: “I know that I’m going to offer to take my son to a Steelers game tomorrow.” In this example, he hasn’t yet been given the choice (and you don’t know the results of his choice). Still, it’s going to be his choice to make. Now, let’s take this a step further: let’s suppose that the Steelers are his all-time favorite sports team. As his parent, you kinda know that he’d give his left arm to go to the game. So, you have a pretty good idea that his answer will be “yes!”. But, does this knowledge mean that he will not make a choice on his own? By no means!

See what happens when you set up the thought experiment carefully? You get a better result.

Gain, you just reinforce the point. Whether God has ‘free will’ or not is a whole different issue. This is about human free will. If the future cannot change, we do not have free will.

I’m not talking about God’s freedom. I’m pointing out that the assertion in the article about “God” and “future” is malformed: all is present to Him; there’s no “unknown future” for God.

The above is nothing but special pleading.

Take a deep breath. I’m guessing I’m going to be laying some new knowledge on ya…

Special pleading is only fallacious when there’s no special case to warrant it. Let that sink in for a second. Then, ask yourself “is God a special case? A singleton?” The answer is “yep!”. Therefore… no logical fallacy here.

you claim he does acts in order, but not in order, because it is “one” act.

No order here. Just one eternal act. The logic flows from the definition of eternity.

Why do you get to say being “outside of time” means it magically resolves all the problems?

Magically? No. Just logically.

I could reverse every statement you make.

Yeah, you could, but it wouldn’t hold up to logical scrutiny.