What does God know?

[Gorgias]

But I could just as easily say in eternity, NOTHING happens, because you admit God is stateless.

Nope. Is “state” necessary for eternal action? Is “change of state” necessary? If you want to make your assertion stick, you’re gonna have to show that this is the case.

And keep in mind, the entire basis of the Cosmological arguments are based one exactly this idea, God DECIDED to be the first mover, or the first cause, and so forth.

No they aren’t! There’s no notion of “decision” in this construct… you’re just setting up a strawman here!

Specifically, watch videos on the topic and note specifically when apologists say God is “personal” and define it as being able to make decisions (ie, change their internal state).

Meh. Then these apologists are either mistaken or are talking about God in the context of a different faith tradition than Catholicism.

That’s the point, the set of choices we can make for any given decision will always be “1”, the decision God knows we’ll make.

No… we can make any choice possible. God just happens to know what that choice will be. He doesn’t constrain our set of choices, or force one of them.

 

[Dan123]

No… we can make any choice possible. God just happens to know what that choice will be. He doesn’t constrain our set of choices, or force one of them.

Consider your favorite food, did God know what your favorite food would be when he created you? Could he have created you slightly different, such that your favorite food was something else?

 

[Gorgias]

Could he have created you slightly different, such that your favorite food was something else?

You’re asserting determinism here. Is “favorite food” a function of my nature?

(It seems it’s not. If I grew up in New Orleans, my favorite food might be crawfish, or if in Japan, sushi.)

So, the identity of my “favorite food” seems entwined with my personal choices, so… free will.

 

[Dan123]

You’re asserting determinism here. Is “favorite food” a function of my nature?

(It seems it’s not. If I grew up in New Orleans, my favorite food might be crawfish, or if in Japan, sushi.)

So, the identity of my “favorite food” seems entwined with my personal choices, so… free will .

I’d say it’s a function of your nature and your environment, but God also determined your environment didn’t he? It’s determinism of a sort, determinism-lite I guess. I’m not saying there isn’t a will, but there’s an actor who determines which ‘wills’ he creates, where they’re born, and importantly which ‘wills’ he doesn’t create.

Suppose I roll a die and get a 3, I roll it again and get a 1, I roll it a 3rd time and get a 6 (woohoo!), and I slide the die across the table. I take another die, I do the same thing, stopping only when I have a 6 showing on the die. Now those die rolls are random, any number could show up, but I’m only choosing to ‘keep’ the ones that produce the outcome I want; so is the pile of 6’s the result of random dice rolling? Yes and no.

I don’t think either of us would imagine God rolls dice, I would imagine when God makes a new soul he already knows the outcome, he knows where that person fits in his plan, every choice they’ll ever make, and the moment they die. So when God makes you he knows if your favorite food will be crawfish or sushi, if he makes the ‘you’ that likes crawfish, do you have the choice to prefer sushi? Didn’t God not make that ‘you’?

 

[Gorgias]

God also determined your environment didn’t he

No. I can’t tell if you’re attempting to make fun at my expense, but I can’t really see how you’re seriously suggesting this!

Did God cause your parents to conceive you? (No.) Did He cause your parents to settle and live where they did? (No.) Did He cause them to exist when they did? (No.) Did He cause the area in which they lived to have the culture and characteristics that it did? (No.) Then how in the world might you suggest that God “determined your environment”?

I would imagine when God makes a new soul he already knows the outcome, he knows where that person fits in his plan, every choice they’ll ever make, and the moment they die.

Sure, but God only creates the soul for persons who have been conceived by their parents. So, “knowing the outcome”, He nevertheless didn’t cause them to exist when and where they were conceived.

So when God makes you

Strictly speaking, He doesn’t “make you”. Your parents procreate you, and He creates your soul.

 

[Dan123]

No. I can’t tell if you’re attempting to make fun at my expense, but I can’t really see how you’re seriously suggesting this!

I’m certainly not, sorry if it came across that way. What I meant was could God have sent you to parents in Japan, where you might learn to love sushi, or parents in New Orleans where you learned to love seafood? Were those options within God’s power and would God know all the consequences to your life based on where you grew up?

Did God cause your parents to conceive you? (No.)

He nevertheless didn’t cause them to exist when and where they were conceived.

Was this out of God’s hands though? Aren’t all children gifts from God? When someone has trouble conceiving aren’t they told it’s part of God’s plan and for a reason? Why wouldn’t that hold true for couples who do conceive?

Strictly speaking, He doesn’t “make you”. Your parents procreate you, and He creates your soul.

Sure but he isn’t a vending machine spitting out souls either, I think most believers understanding creation of a soul to be a creative process.

Did He cause your parents to settle and live where they did? (No.) Did He cause them to exist when they did? (No.) Did He cause the area in which they lived to have the culture and characteristics that it did? (No.) Then how in the world might you suggest that God “determined your environment”?

Because God chose to send you to the time and place he did, when he could have sent you to live with any set of parents at any time in any place.

Anyways I’m not sure we’re as far apart on this as it seems. You seem to have a fairly conservative take on how much a soul affects our ‘self’, with much or even most of ‘us’ coming from our environment, parents, and so on after we’re born. That may be what this comes down to, e.g. if someone struggles to accept religion because they’re extremely skeptical, is their skepticism a product purely of environment or is that part of the self that comes from the soul. If so could God have made them less skeptical, or sent that soul to parents who would be able to raise the child to belief despite their skepticism. To me the more of our ‘self’ we attribute to the soul, the more God has a hand in the decisions we make.

 

[Gorgias]

it is certainly interesting that the most prominent modern proponent of the cosmological arguments agrees with me.

Argumentum ab auctoritate, much?

What I meant was could God have sent you to parents in Japan

Except that this isn’t how it works. God doesn’t “send us” anywhere. (I almost suspect that this is a hold-over from the old wives’ talk about storks bringing babies.)

Your parents conceived you. That’s what determines where you would be born. Not God.

Were those options within God’s power

Nope. He didn’t put me in America and others in Japan.

Was this out of God’s hands though?

Yep. He gives us the ability to be causal agents.

Aren’t all children gifts from God?

Allegorically speaking. However, that doesn’t mean that God placed me here and you there. That’s just the sort of story we tell our children, I suspect.

When someone has trouble conceiving aren’t they told it’s part of God’s plan and for a reason?

“Part of God’s plan” doesn’t mean “God reached down and dictated when and where you would be born.”

Because God chose to send you to the time and place he did, when he could have sent you to live with any set of parents at any time in any place.

Nope. Wrong approach. God didn’t “choose” – our parents did!

You seem to have a fairly conservative take on how much a soul affects our ‘self’, with much or even most of ‘us’ coming from our environment, parents, and so on after we’re born.

“Soul” =/= “personality”, per se. (Or even “favorite food determiner”!)

 

[Dan123]

Nope. Wrong approach. God didn’t “choose” – our parents did!

Fair enough, as I said we likely aren’t as far apart as it seems. The conflict I described arises as one posits God having a larger and larger “influence” on the world itself, the more hands-off description you’ve given doesn’t really have that issue. I think some folks might attribute more to God’s hand than you, e.g. people who feel their aptitude for math or music or whatever comes directly from God; but that’s a discussion I can save to have with such folks.

 

[Gorgias]

Fair enough, as I said we likely aren’t as far apart as it seems. The conflict I described arises as one posits God having a larger and larger “influence” on the world itself

Notice, though, that the more you suggest such a fundamental “influence”, the more you’re arguing for determinism (and against free will).

 

[Bill6]

God is Wisdom itself. All knowledge and wisdom come from God. This does not mean that God is the sum of all wisdom. It simply means that God is All-Knowing and All-Perfect. Anything we can know that is true and good was given to us by God.

Regarding eternal life. This is a question about predestination, election and free will. There are different Catholic perspectives on this topic (See the Catholic Encyclopedia’s articles on this topic, especially thomism and molinism.)

Catholics can have different opinions but mist believe the following: God gives all people sufficient Grace to be saved. Those who are saved accept God’s grace. They are aided by His grace in making the decision because human beings with a fallen nature cannot even choose God without His help. The Church teaches that the specific details of how God’s Grace and Omnipotence work with human free will is a mystery beyond human understanding. Remember, God is outside of time. Time and space are actually creatures of God.

You should go to the New Advent website or Catholic answers website (Catholic.com) to access the Catholic Encyclopedia. On Catholic.com read Jimmy Akin’s article a Tiptoe Through TULIP.

Here are some more links

http://www.newadvent.org/

Catholic answers also has many youtube videos on this topic. Also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (here is the link: Catechism of the Catholic Church)
God bless and Mary keep you.

 

[Dan123]

Notice, though, that the more you suggest such a fundamental “influence”, the more you’re arguing for determinism (and against free will).

Oh I know, the intersection of God’s will and our free will I think is interesting. Since we seem to be able to step away from souls perhaps a more general phrasing of what I’m saying.

Could God have created the universe differently than he did? If so, would some people make different choices than they did in this world? If so, is it possible some of those choices might affect some of those people’s salvation?

 

[EndTimes]

Oh I know, the intersection of God’s will and our free will I think is interesting.

God’s Active Will as in Creation…

God’s Permissive Will allows our Will to be un-intrudable aka free

 

[EndTimes]

God is All-Knowing

Time to move on, eh?