What does God know?

[Dan123]

Does God have that knowledge? Some say “yes”, some say “no”. (I’m personally of the opinion that God’s omniscience doesn’t extend to counter-factuals, but that this doesn’t mean He’s not omniscient.)

Especially since there’s likely a near infinite number of other paths that could have led to the Browns playing. So it could be the question is unanswerable because while there’s a near infinite number of things that could have happened, only one set of those events did happen.

To the question at hand there does seem to be an issue in that while God may allow free will, he presumably still chooses at any given time to make one soul instead of another, decides where in the world that soul will be born, and so on.

 

[LovelyLadybug]

Can God know the state of our eternal salvation/damnation before it has happened for us? Can he know what our response will be to things before they happen, do these responses exist before we act upon them? Or is it like God knows every thing that can potentially happen, but not what will happen. For example when God “tests” Abraham, and the angel says, “For now I know that you fear God and have not withheld your son, your only one from me” did God know how Abraham would react? Or was Abraham’s fearing God not confirmed until after the action?

Yes, God knows where we will go when we die before it happens to us. He knows everything, including things that haven’t happened yet.

 

[Vico]

It seems as though if God knew the fate of our eternal souls when he makes them, it would be nonsensical to create those that are predestined to Hell.

It is a necessary result of having free will that some will choose not to love. They are not predestined to hell by God.

Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. …

 

[Chistian-ity]

Yes, I agree with that.

 

[fhansen]

God knows the beginning from the end. Our freedom consists in His 1) giving us free will, and 2) not interfering with our free decisions even if they oppose or conflict with His will. Obviously He values our freedom, for His purposes, and wants us to use it correctly rather than abuse it.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, I agree with that.

OK. So, when we ask “does God know the name of Gorgias’ oldest great-grandchild?”, we’re not asking a question about something that happens in 2050. We’re asking a question about which God knows the answer because He created the universe, and knew – having created it – that I would live in the universe and have an eternal destiny.

However, what if I never have a great-grandchild? The question now becomes “does God know what the name of Gorgias’ oldest great-grandchild would be, if there had ever been such a person?”

My answer is “that’s a counter-factual”, and so, I would suggest that God doesn’t have knowledge of things that are not and never will be. That doesn’t mean He’s not omniscient, though.

So, let’s get back to the original question. It’s a leading question, since it includes a presumption in it. The question asks “why does God create people whom he knows are going to be damned for all eternity?”

My response is “does He know that they’re damned, before He knows that they’re going to live?”

That’s why this is a “before the creation of the universe” topic. My assertion is this: having not created the universe, God doesn’t have knowledge of counter-factuals. He only knows everything about the universe and all its creatures having created it in the first place. So, I would respond: “God creates, and desires all to accept Him and be with Him eternally. Having created, He knows who will reject Him. However, following the teachings of the Church, God doesn’t create with the intent to damn. So… no; God doesn’t create people whom He knows will be damned for all eternity.”

It was Calvin who made the assertion of “double predestination” – that God intends and predestines some to be created for damnation. His theology flies in the face of Catholic theology, but that’s the way he saw it. Catholic theology sees it differently.

Make sense?

 

[Chistian-ity]

having not created the universe, God doesn’t have knowledge of counter-factuals. He only knows everything about the universe and all its creatures having created it in the first place .

But I thought that there was no prior to the start of the universe for God

 

[Gorgias]

But I thought that there was no prior to the start of the universe for God

Not a temporal “prior”, in terms of sequence. That’s what makes it difficult to talk about.

However, the question is whether God created, knowing that particular people would be damned, yet created them anyway. The very statement of the question presumes a sort of temporal sequence! Nevertheless, my contention is that He doesn’t know this until the act of creation itself. Therefore, no conundrum exists.

 

[Chistian-ity]

So at the instance of creation, that’s when God gains knowledge of the soul’s salvation. But does he gain the knowledge in all places in time, and therefore knows the fate of the soul “before” creating it?

 

[AHapka]

Yes, and the three children at Fatima were told in advance they were going to Heaven. But most of us don’t get to know

 

[Chistian-ity]

Is it then that free will is violated?

 

[Gorgias]

But does he gain the knowledge in all places in time, and therefore knows the fate of the soul “before” creating it?

So, what I think you’re asking is that, if a baby is born tomorrow, then does God know Him “before” February 21, 2020, right?

What you’re doing there is conflating God’s existence (outside time) with our existences (inside time). Upon creating the universe, God knew that this baby would be born on 2/21/20, and the state of its soul at its death. But, that doesn’t mean that He knew on 2/20/20, or even 2/20/1000. That would be asking a question about God outside time as if He were inside time. He’s not.

So – upon creating the universe, God knew all that would ever happen in the universe. The fact that – inside the universe – it would take billions of years for this baby to be born, doesn’t mean that God learned about its birth inside of time (and therefore, “before” the birth). He knew upon creating the universe. However, I want to suggest that He didn’t create that baby for the express purpose of condemning it to hell for eternity.

Am I answering the question you’re trying to ask, or were you asking something different?

Is it then that free will is violated?

No. God’s knowledge isn’t what makes it happen; our will is free, and our actions are conditioned upon our free will (and on others’) and our nature and the limitations of ourselves and the universe.

 

[Latin]

… our will is free, and our actions are conditioned upon our free will …

I believe Gorgias your statement is perfect.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: God explains;

The world is essentially dependent on God, and this dependence implies
(1) that God is the Creator of the world — the producer of its whole substance; and
(2) that its continuance in being at every moment is due to His sustaining power.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm

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God created us includes our free wills, His sustaining power keeps us and our free wills superintend at every moment as follows.
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There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will, (De fide).
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Aquinas said, "God changes the will without forcing it . But he can change the will from the fact that he himself operates in the will as he does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9. 31. ST I-II:112:3. 32. Gaudium et Spes 22; "being …
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes:
"For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
Far from diminishing the creature’s dignity, this truth enhances it.
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307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free, causes in order to complete the work of creation, … Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions…
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As God Himself operates in our wills, we don’t even have to know we are FREELY cooperating with His wills.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Free Will explains;

“God is the author of all causes and effects, but is not the author of sin, because an action ceases to be sin if God wills it to happen. Still God is the cause of sin.
God’s omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe.”

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“All events preordained by God in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated. (Contra Gent., III, xciv);”

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THEOLOGICAL FACTS

Nothing that is outside of God’s creating, sustaining, and governing will.
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Our actions conditioned upon our free wills and our free wills and in fact, our whole being conditioned upon at every moment God’s sustaining power of Divine Providence.

“Hence if this divine influence stopped, every operation would stop.
Every operation, therefore, of anything is traced back to Him as its cause.” (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book III.)
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[po18guy]

I suffer no confusion. Nor do the 1.5 BILLION Orthodox and Catholic Christians, along with a good percentage of post-reform Christians.

From which viewpoint are you observing?

 

[Gorgias]

Which makes no sense at all and is the essence of the free will dilemma from a religious standpoint.

How so? Does my knowledge of your lack of belief in Catholic doctrine cause that lack of belief? (Since I’m not omniscient and omnipotent, but have limited abilities, perhaps I can state it this way, which would fit the question, but more accurately: does my knowledge of your lack of belief contribute to your lack of belief?)

Clearly, the answer is “no”. I’d like to see your description of the so-called “dilemma”.

You didn’t mention Molinism, a current Catholic viewpoint, which states that not only does God know everything that was, is, and will be, but also everything that COULD be./quote]
That’s one opinion among many. Another opinion is that God doesn’t have knowledge of counter-factuals.

Because God knows everything that COULD be, we have free will, because how could God know it we didn’t have free will

Nope. The assertion you’re rehearsing here fails to distinguish how God knows. By this opinion, you’re implicitly asserting that God learns our actions, it seems. The argument tends to go like this: God knows everything that could be, so no matter what I choose, God’s already “seen” it.

God doesn’t “learn” or “observe” in order to have knowledge. He simply has knowledge of all that is.

There really is no answer to the religious free will problem.

There really is. There’s just none that you like.

From a religious standpoint, I honestly think God is not omniscient, at least from a standpoint of knowing the future. Too many problems are unsolvable otherwise.

OK, I call. Let’s see your hand! What “too many unsolvable problems” are there?

 

[stoplooklisten]

It is tempting to try to find fault with God and what God knows. But, we were are finite and our existence is conditioned upon a Creator. On the contrary, God is infinite. His knowledge and wisdom is much greater than ours. Per the Apostles Creed, Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the God the Father Almighty. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. God is pure and holy. We come short of such perfection and holiness. Therefore, we do well to pray: Have mercy upon us and upon the whole world.

 

[po18guy]

I take it you have not read Aquinas or Augustine?

I ask again: from which view point are you making observations?

 

[EndTimes]

Can God know the state of our eternal salvation/damnation before it has happened for us?

He does… He ‘sees’ all ‘time’ i.e., Eternity

He’s given us partial truths of Eternity - in Prophecy - ie., the Future…

Yes that does not equate to pre-destination.

 

[Gorgias]

If God KNOWS now what you are going to do, you do not have free will. If you disagree, please define free will to avoid any future confusion.

If I know what you’re going to do (let’s take a guess: “continue to rail against the Catholic Church and your misunderstanding of its teachings”), then that means that you no longer have free will? You sure about that?

Some theologians admit God cannot be fully omniscient

You realize that theologians can be mistaken… right?
You realize that theologians don’t speak for the Church… right?

if you want to defend a viewpoint, explain how Molinism - the idea that God knows not just the past, present, and future, but also everything that COULD happen, enable our free will?

Molinism isn’t a doctrine of the Church.

 

[goout]

po18guy:

I take it you have not read Aquinas or Augustine?

I ask again: from which view point are you making observations?

Takes your pick - neither has a viewpoint rationalizes free will with an omniscient God.
…
So…I am saying free will and an omniscient God can not be rationalized.

You’re making an assertion. Can you support it?
You have not demonstrated anything close to: “knowledge tramples free will”