What does God make of feminism?

[thomfra]

Do you think the rise of feminism has bettered the world we live in, or made it worse?

 

[wapsi]

uh oh… here we go!

I am not sure which question you want us to answer: What we think of feminism or what God thinks of feminism.

I’m pretty sure She approves of it.

 

[1ke]

That depends upon your definition of feminism.

Remember, the original “feminists” were abolitionists and suffragettes. They abhored abortion and loose morals and supported family and motherhood-- they are likely turning over in their graves seeing what has been done in the years since.

So, I’m sure God approved of the movement Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B Anthony, and others began-- abolition of slavery, equality under the law regarding property ownership and the right to vote and work, abolition of child labor, etc.

I’m sure He disapproves of what it has become.

 

[thomfra]

That depends upon your definition of feminism.

Remember, the original “feminists” were abolitionists and suffragettes. They abhored abortion and loose morals and supported family and motherhood-- they are likely turning over in their graves seeing what has been done in the years since.

So, I’m sure God approved of the movement Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B Anthony, and others began-- abolition of slavery, equality under the law regarding property ownership and the right to vote and work, abolition of child labor, etc.

I’m sure He disapproves of what it has become.

So what has it become then! Tell me what you really think

 

[thomfra]

uh oh… here we go!

I am not sure which question you want us to answer: What we think of feminism or what God thinks of feminism.

I’m pretty sure She approves of it.

he he. This is gonna be a good thread. I can feel it…

 

[mdgspencer]

I suspect that feminism means a number of quite different things nowadays, so that it would be hard to make a blanket statement.
All the same, those who think it always beneficial might look at the website of the most prominent feminist organization, the National Organization of Women. You can get to it very easily by typing National Organization of Women on google.com You will find some links on its homepage to “lesbian rights” and “abortion and reproductive rights” that show something of what faminism in some cases stands for.

 

[ghaybyers1]

I agree with a PP- feminism was, in the beginning, a very righteous cause, focusing on voting rights, supporting their families (in Canada, our suffragettes wanted to be able to work for equal pay and vote during and after the great wars, when their husbands were away and/or killed in action) and advocating family life was high on their list of priorities.

Now, it seems like feminism is all about doing whatever is convenient at the moment. I sometimes think that women forget the inherent “one ups” we have on men, just naturally!

 

[cheese_sdc]

Just to stir things up:

I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat, or a prostitute. –Rebecca West, 1913

Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings. –Cheris Kramerae, author of A Feminist Dictionary, 1996

Remember, Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire did, but she did it backwards and in high heels. –Faith Whittlesey

 

[cargau]

Modern day feminism is anti feminine. Instead of embracing the beauty of femaleness and all that it holds, physically, emotionally and psycologically, modern day feminism attempts shun anything that makes women seem less powerful than a man. It sets out to ensure that no women is ever denied any opportunities that can be pursued by a man, no matter what.

On balance, these may seem like nobel ideals. The problem is not the ends, it is the means. Promoting artificial birth control and abortion are indeed ant-female. The movement seeks to subvert the very nature of the fairer sex.

I do not speak for what God thinks, I only hope that we think alike.

 

[ghaybyers1]

Modern day feminism is anti feminine. Instead of embracing the beauty of femaleness and all that it holds, physically, emotionally and psycologically, modern day feminism attempts shun anything that makes women seem less powerful than a man.
…
The movement seeks to subvert the very nature of the fairer sex.

100% agreed. In the hysteria designed to bring women “equal rights”, I find more self-conciousness has been brought than true rights!
All of a sudden, my desire to be a wife and mother is “anti-feminist”. My response is that the aim of feminism isn’t to create barren career women, but rather to give women the choice of what they want to do.
My recognizing my desire to be a home maker is the ultimate in feminism in my generation- bucking the “norm” of girls who want power careers. I HAVE that now and still long for a husband and children to fill up my life with joy.
I mentioned the inherent “one ups” that women have over men- my generation seems to want to wipe those off of the map! Always I hear complaining about men wanting to make my female friends their “lady” (wives), or of men appreciating their beauty and how they can carry children (usually this goes on between Christian men and secular women). How have women forgotten that this is something strong and beautiful that only we can do!?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

uh oh… here we go!

I am not sure which question you want us to answer: What we think of feminism or what God thinks of feminism.

I’m pretty sure She approves of it.

Oh now they are going to jump down your throat for that one. But I think God is all for equality, fairness, and justice for all his people. The Spirit is a free gift to all the sons and daughters of God, as He/She wills it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

That depends upon your definition of feminism.

Remember, the original “feminists” were abolitionists and suffragettes. They abhored abortion and loose morals and supported family and motherhood-- they are likely turning over in their graves seeing what has been done in the years since.

So, I’m sure God approved of the movement Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B Anthony, and others began-- abolition of slavery, equality under the law regarding property ownership and the right to vote and work, abolition of child labor, etc.

I’m sure He disapproves of what it has become.

Would it not be fairer to say you approve of the first and disapprove of the latter? I don’t recall that God has weighed in on the subject so much.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Modern day feminism is anti feminine. Instead of embracing the beauty of femaleness and all that it holds, physically, emotionally and psycologically, modern day feminism attempts shun anything that makes women seem less powerful than a man. It sets out to ensure that no women is ever denied any opportunities that can be pursued by a man, no matter what.

On balance, these may seem like nobel ideals. The problem is not the ends, it is the means. Promoting artificial birth control and abortion are indeed ant-female. The movement seeks to subvert the very nature of the fairer sex.

I do not speak for what God thinks, I only hope that we think alike.

When you use the term “fairer” sex you automatically set women as “different” and less. Why should women be denied any opportunity pursued by men btw? Just wondering.

There are plenty of feminists I would assume who are not in favor of abortion, in fact I would hazard a guess that most are not in favor of it. Being in favor of the right to choice is not the same. And as to ABC, well, you are going to have a hard row to hoe convincing even men that this is a bad thing if you arent’ Catholic. 85% of catholics use it, and 98% of the pop. at large believes it is a good thing.

 

[surfinpure]

Read the book, What Our Mothers Didn’t Tell Us, by Danielle Crittenden, if you want to know what “women’s lib” and modern “feminism” (which is not true feminism) have done to women. It’s not pretty.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

100% agreed. In the hysteria designed to bring women “equal rights”, I find more self-conciousness has been brought than true rights!
All of a sudden, my desire to be a wife and mother is “anti-feminist”. My response is that the aim of feminism isn’t to create barren career women, but rather to give women the choice of what they want to do.
My recognizing my desire to be a home maker is the ultimate in feminism in my generation- bucking the “norm” of girls who want power careers. I HAVE that now and still long for a husband and children to fill up my life with joy.
I mentioned the inherent “one ups” that women have over men- my generation seems to want to wipe those off of the map! Always I hear complaining about men wanting to make my female friends their “lady” (wives), or of men appreciating their beauty and how they can carry children (usually this goes on between Christian men and secular women). How have women forgotten that this is something strong and beautiful that only we can do!?

I don’t think that is at all the way that modern feminists feel. We are for a women’s right to choose what is best for her. Plenty have decided that raising a family at least for some portion of their lives is more important than careers. Surely there are women who are as you speak, but that is simply because women like men are a whole range of individuals with different needs and desires. There are men who take really well to being homemakers and caretakers for children. That is certainly a wonderful thing I think.

I’m sorry you work in an environment that suggests to you that there is no desire or importance placed on children. I never found that in all my years when I practiced law. I am now a typical housewife, and love it. I don’t feel less, and have never been made to feel less because of it.

 

[madeup_nickname]

When you look at how concerned Jesus was with widows (protected by no one in society) and adulteresses (who were put to death while the adulterer often suffered no punishment at all) and other women, and how many special moments he had with them, and how it seems that most apparitions are granted to women, I think God knows how much women have suffered through the ages and would be glad that society is finally aware of it too and is trying to rectify the situation. I will agree that in some ways the movement has swung too far, but that is usually how things go at first. I think that eventually things will settle down in the middle of the two extremes. To dismiss feminism completely and ignore the atrocities committed against women throughout the globe, from genital mutilations, honor killings, derogatory remarks, pay discrimmination, forced abortions, child sex slaves etc, would be completely against the teachings of God and the Church. Half of the population of many countries is suffering from extreme oppression because of their gender, and I admire the feminists who fight to make people aware of these horrors.

 

[iaskquestions]

Over to John Paul 2

(Emphasis mine)

"Recent years have seen new approaches to women’s issues. A first tendency is to emphasize strongly conditions of subordination in order to give rise to antagonism: women, in order to be themselves, must make themselves the adversaries of men. Faced with the abuse of power, the answer for women is to seek power. This process leads to opposition between men and women, in which the identity and role of one are emphasized to the disadvantage of the other, leading to harmful confusion regarding the human person, which has its most immediate and lethal effects in the structure of the family.

A second tendency emerges in the wake of the first. In order to avoid the domination of one sex or the other, their differences tend to be denied, viewed as mere effects of historical and cultural conditioning. In this perspective, physical difference, termed sex, is minimized, while the purely cultural element, termed gender, is emphasized to the maximum and held to be primary. The obscuring of the difference or duality of the sexes has enormous consequences on a variety of levels. This theory of the human person, intended to promote prospects for equality of women through liberation from biological determinism, has in reality inspired ideologies which, for example, call into question the family, in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality.

While the immediate roots of this second tendency are found in the context of reflection on women’s roles, its deeper motivation must be sought in the human attempt to be freed from one’s biological conditioning. According to this perspective, human nature in itself does not possess characteristics in an absolute manner: all persons can and ought to constitute themselves as they like, since they are free from every predetermination linked to their essential constitution.

This perspective has many consequences. Above all it strengthens the idea that the liberation of women entails criticism of Sacred Scripture, which would be seen as handing on a patriarchal conception of God nourished by an essentially male-dominated culture. Second, this tendency would consider as lacking in importance and relevance the fact that the Son of God assumed human nature in its male form.

In the face of these currents of thought, the Church, enlightened by faith in Jesus Christ, speaks instead of active collaboration between the sexes precisely in the recognition of the difference between man and woman.

To understand better the basis, meaning and consequences of this response it is helpful to turn briefly to the Sacred Scriptures, rich also in human wisdom, in which this response is progressively manifested thanks to God’s intervention on behalf of humanity."

Read more: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

 

[ghaybyers1]

I don’t think that is at all the way that modern feminists feel. We are for a women’s right to choose what is best for her. Plenty have decided that raising a family at least for some portion of their lives is more important than careers. Surely there are women who are as you speak, but that is simply because women like men are a whole range of individuals with different needs and desires. There are men who take really well to being homemakers and caretakers for children. That is certainly a wonderful thing I think.

I’m sorry you work in an environment that suggests to you that there is no desire or importance placed on children. I never found that in all my years when I practiced law. I am now a typical housewife, and love it. I don’t feel less, and have never been made to feel less because of it.

I should whole-heartedly agree that it’s not the way all modern feminists feel.
Unfortunately, blanket statements work neither way. Some of these situations are wrought on us by cultural, ethnic and need-based situations. I live in a booming Alberta where a single income often doesn’t cut it for rent, etc. I have unfortunately seen many Christian friends marry simply for the purpose of cost-sharing.
I work for the government of Alberta and the Northern Alberta Institute of Technology- I know the stats. There is a 9 to one male:female ratio in formally trained tradespeople- the majority of those whose salaries are being raised in concordance with the financial cost of the boom for the average citizen are male.
The university of alberta has a 64% female population, and a 16% lower first-month-hire occurance. At NAIT, 98% of students are hired within a month of graduation, within which resides 32% that either retain related work during school or are poached before they graduate.
The reasonable extrapolation of this is that more males are being hired FASTER than females- regardless of duration or excellence in education. Factor in the fact that NAIT outputs over 60% of Canada’s skilled tradespeople and the trend becomes even more clear- male dominated industries are simply more in demand. So in order for a female to get an in-demand job, they have to buck the curve and fight it out in a boys club.

This is my reality- whether it’s anyone else’s, I don’t know! It’s funny that we both work in the general feild of law- myself for a legal aid agency- and find law to be non-“pushy” about the choice to be a wife an mother (the cynic in me says it’s because the law in regards to discrimination is rather clear cut). The field I work in as a professional is journalism, and that is where the boys club, work-to-meet-deadlines-whatever-it-takes lifestyle plays in. My desire to bring change for the world took me in to journalism, and my conviction that the greatest impact I could have on the world would be raising a holy family for the Lord led me out! (well, most of the way… I still work for the Canadian University Press!)

That all said… perhaps it is simply a 20-something perspective, but I see a lot of ANGRY feminism going around in the older generations. Perhaps it’s the influence of age, or my naturally happy demeanor… but the feminist influence in my own personal experience, is not a positive one. There is such strength in being a wife and mother, and I can’t help but feel if a feminist tried what was natural to them (in terms of biology), if they may find more joy in their lives.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Being in favor of the right to choice is not the same. And as to ABC, well, you are going to have a hard row to hoe convincing even men that this is a bad thing if you arent’ Catholic. 85% of catholics use it, and 98% of the pop. at large believes it is a good thing.

The Devil’s having a field day.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Oh now they are going to jump down your throat for that one. But I think God is all for equality, fairness, and justice for all his people. The Spirit is a free gift to all the sons and daughters of God, as He/She wills it.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

What’s so hard to understand about that?