What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[fbl9]

No it doesn’t. He cannot violate His other attributes.

God’s love does overcome even His own wrath,reread the OT.you will many examples of God’s wrath being quenched by His love for His people…

 

[SHW]

Therefore, the N.T. knows nothing of a sacerdotal class in contrast to the laity. The whole body of Christ (the church) is a kingdom of priests (Rev. 1:6), a holy and royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:5, 9). But from the beginning the church appointed elders (presbuteros) and deacons (diakonos), but it had no separate, sacerdotal class or office.

How is it that a person (in this instance with a nickname of “Moondweller,”) in the 20th Century (or 21st) thinks that he can pick up a Bible that was written about 2000 years earlier and believe that he is able to interpret it correctly and not make any errors in his judgment?

The Sacerdotal priesthood and the Holy Eucharist are well documented from the earliest times.

THE DIDACHE

"The Didache or “The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles” is a manuscript which was used by 2nd century bishops and priests for the instruction of catechumens. Many early Christian writers have referenced it making this document relatively easy to date.

"Let no one eat and drink of your Eucharist but those baptized in the name of the Lord; to this, too the saying of the Lord is applicable: 'Do not give to dogs what is **sacred**'".

-Ch. 9:5

"On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. However, no one quarreling with his brother may join your meeting until they are reconciled; your sacrifice must not be defiled. For here we have the saying of the Lord: **'In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a mighty King, says the Lord; and my name spreads terror among the nations.**'"

-Ch 14

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ST. CLEMENT OF ROME

St. Clement was the third successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome; otherwise known as the third Pope.

"Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. He has Himself fixed by His supreme will the places and persons whom He desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to His good pleasure, and be acceptable to His will. So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, but they follow the laws of the Master and do not sin. For to the high priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the **priests** the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

Source: St. Clement, bishop of Rome, 80 A.D., to the Corinthians

"Our sin will not be small if we eject from the **episcopate** those who blamelessly and holily have offered its Sacrifices."

Source: Letter to the Corinthians, [44,4]

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ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH

St. Ignatius became the third bishop of Antioch, succeeding St. Evodius, who was the immediate successor of St. Peter. He heard St. John preach when he was a boy and knew St. Polycarp, Bishop of Smyrna. Seven of his letters written to various Christian communities have been preserved. Eventually, he received the martyr’s crown as he was thrown to wild beasts in the arena.

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. **They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."**

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

“Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ.”

-“Letter to the Ephesians”, paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"I have no taste for the food that perishes nor for the pleasures of this life. I want the Bread of God which is the Flesh of Christ, who was the seed of David; and for drink I desire His Blood which is love that cannot be destroyed."

-“Letter to the Romans”, paragraph 7, circa 80-110 A.D.

“Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God:** for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”**

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D."

---

From therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

John 6:54 “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

You are mistaken. This is a new priesthood. New names are used for its clergy. There is a throne of grace in heaven and also thrones of grace on the altars and in the tabernacles in the Catholic Church and Jesus is made present on this altar during every Mass.

As you have yet to show me where the word hiereus (priest) is used in the N.T. in direct reference to a church office, show me where the Greek words thusiasterion or bomos (altar) are mentioned in reference to worship in the church.

As I see it, based on Divine revelation, the church has no altar or separate, sacerdotal class. Both of these concepts belong to the Old Covenant which anticipated the coming of Christ who would inaugurate a New Covenant in His blood.

Jesus is both Sacrifice and High Priest for His new priesthood. However, He has sacerdotal priests who re-offer His once and for all sacrifice daily to His Father in heaven for the remission of sins. It is not a new sacrifice, it is the same sacrifice of the Last Supper/Calvary that is re-presented to the Father in every Catholic Mass.

Heb 7:27 "…who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the {sins} of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Heb 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.I think this is very clear, don’t you?

How is it that a person (in this instance with a nickname of “Moondweller,”) in the 20th Century (or 21st) thinks that he can pick up a Bible that was written about 2000 years earlier and believe that he is able to interpret it correctly and not make any errors in his judgment?

I don’t claim to not make errors, but I, “Moondweller,” in this 21st Cen. can do just that: I can pick up a Bible and read what is very clearly stated in it and make a judgment based on that which is very clearly revealed. I can make a judgment as to whether or not men make statements contrary to what is very clearly revealed in God’s written word.

 

[ryanoneil]

Unfortunately for Catholics, your Church has not developed any meaningful doctrine of “regeneration,” what it means, and the blessings it brings. Neither do I find any notable teaching on “union with Christ,” and the individual, but only corporate union, through the church. On that basis, it’s no wonder you reject eternal security because IMO, you have an incomplete understanding of those important things—regeneration and union with Christ—because those who teach you have an incomplete understanding of them, ISTM.

Respectfully, that is a wild boast. There is a big difference between no doctrine existing and disagreeing with our doctrine.

However, Ryan, back to your statement:Having the advantage of a clearly articulated doctrine of regeneration and union with Christ, I do know.

I have as much uncertainty about my future glorious glorification, as I have about my past unbelievably reprobated reprobation—both are equally certain.

That’s one demonstration, Ryan. My life, of which you know little, is the proof.

We are using the same language to describe different things, so I don’t understand what you mean by being certain about your uncertainty. I am going to stop beating this dead horse.

We also have a clearly articulated doctrine, so we have as much assurance as you do. God will live up to his covenant promises.

This is a true saying: there is none righteous, not even one (cf Rom 3:10-18). Until that truth is fully revealed to you, and fully embraced by you, you’ll remain where you are, IMO.

I’m not sure what you are suggesting here.

In your system? What does that mean?

What you believe. Maybe I should have said “faith tradition.”

Are you a cradle Catholic, or a convert?

I was born and raised Catholic.

 

[ryanoneil]

show me where the Greek words thusiasterion or bomos (altar) are mentioned in reference to worship in the church.

What is the greek word for alter here?

We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. (Heb 13:10)

 

[ryanoneil]

Heb 7:27 "…who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the {sins} of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

I think this is very clear, don’t you?

It seems pretty clear to me. Jesus exercises an ongoing priestly ministry in heaven.

Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25)

The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer. (Heb 8:1-3)

Jesus is offering his completed sacrifice. Right? (and not some sort of intercessionary sequel)

 

[moondweller]

What is the greek word for alter here?

We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. (Heb 13:10)

Thusiastêrion. The writer of Hebrews wrote his Epistle before 70 A.D.; that is, while the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing and operating. So he says that we (believing Jews) have an altar from which those (unbelieving Jews) who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. In context he’s using the word “altar” figuratively and in reference to the cross of Christ.

The author tells his readers in verse nine not to be carried away by varied and strange doctrines, but rather to be strengthened by GRACE; not foods sacrificed on the altar prescribed under the Old Covenant - which did not benefit them in respect to eternal salvation. Keep in mind that the altar is the place of sacrifice and not the sacrifice itself.

Figuratively speaking, the believing Jew now under the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ’s blood has, in contrast to the Old Covenant, an “altar” which those unbelieving Jews who continue to persist in the ordinances of the Old Covenant, have no right to partake: That being the cross of Christ and the GRACE of God as a result of it.

The antitype of the Old Covenant’s brazen altar (where the shed blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins) is the cross of Christ where His blood was shed, once for all, thereby taking away the sins of all who believe in Him.“For the Law, since it has {only} a shadow of the good things to come {and} not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those {sacrifices} there is a reminder of sins year by year… for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins… By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God” (Heb. 10:1-12; cf. Jn. 3:14-18).What the writer of Hebrews is saying, in context, is that the church has no literal altar since He who was sacrificed for our sins 2000 years ago was sacrificed “once for all,” and by that one sacrifice took away the believer’s sins, once for all (Col. 2: 13-14). So, there’s no need for an altar where no more sacrifice is required. Why? Because as Jesus said: “It is finished.” Enter a New Covenant made with better promises (Heb. 8:6).

 

[moondweller]

It seems pretty clear to me. Jesus exercises an ongoing priestly ministry in heaven.

Therefore, he is always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25)

The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle that the Lord, not man, set up. Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer. (Heb 8:1-3)

Jesus is offering his completed sacrifice. Right? (and not some sort of intercessionary sequel)

No! His sacrifice was completed on earth. Who’s in heaven now, seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High, functioning there as the believer’s Intercessor and High Priest, is a resurrected (unto glory) Christ. It is impossible for His body to be subject to death again (as will the believer’s glorified body). His, once for all, blood sacrifice for sins began on earth and ended on earth (that same day). He was then buried and three days later rose to new life - everlasting life. He being what Scripture calls “the first fruits” (1 Cor. 15:20).

 

[AmbroseSJ]

What the writer of Hebrews is saying, in context, is that the church has no literal altar since He who was sacrificed for our sins 2000 years ago was sacrificed “once for all,” and by that one sacrifice took away the believer’s sins, once for all (Col. 2: 13-14). So, there’s no need for an altar where no more sacrifice is required. Why? Because as Jesus said: “It is finished.” Enter a New Covenant made with better promises (Heb. 8:6).

This is not church doctrine. This is private judgment.

 

[SHW]

As you have yet to show me where the word hiereus (priest) is used in the N.T. in direct reference to a church office, show me where the Greek words thusiasterion or bomos (altar) are mentioned in reference to worship in the church.

Please show me in Scripture where it states that the priests of the New Covenant have to be called “hiereus” just because the Old Covenant priests were. “Presbyters” are “priests” in the New Covenant.

the church has no altar or separate, sacerdotal class. … because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 13:10 “We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle (Jewish Temple Tabernacle) have no right to eat.”

Jesus offered Himself once and for all on the cross at Calvary. He cannot possibly offer Himself up like this again. He can only die once. However, He stated that His Church was to offer Him up in Holy Eucharist to His Father in every Mass.

Matthew 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Luke 22:19 "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

We fulfill the prophecy in Malachi every time a Mass is celebrated in the Catholic Church.

Malachi 1:11-11 “For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down, My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to My name, And a pure offering; For My name shall be great among the nations,” Says the LORD of hosts.”

This means that right now, in these times of the Gentiles in which you and I live, that this pure offering (Jesus’ Body and Blood truly present in the Holy Eucharist) is being offered daily (from the rising of the sun, even to its going down) in Catholic Masses throughout the world (among the nations) for the remission of sins and this miracle will continue until Jesus returns.

"Heb 9:12 "… He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Jesus has entered the holy place once and for all. He sits at the right hand of His Father in heaven. But His sacrifice is ever before His Father.

Revelation 5:6 “And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.”

In every Mass, as commanded by Jesus at the Last Supper, the Body and Blood of Christ, under the appearances of bread and wine, are re-presented to His heavenly Father for the remission of the continued sins of mankind.

John 6:53-57 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:26-30 “For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.”

This is NOT symbolic. This is real flesh and real blood. The Paschal Lamb must be eaten. if you partake of it unworthily, you bring judgment upon yourself and you will not be saved unless you repent before death.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

I can pick up a Bible and read what is very clearly stated in it and make a judgment based on that which is very clearly revealed.

This “once and for all” offering is Jesus’ death on the cross. It can only be done once. He can only die physically once. However, Jesus said to perpetuate His Sacrifice of the Last Supper in which He miraculously gave His own body and blood to be eaten by His Apostles. He is the Paschal Lamb of this new Passover. As you probably know, a Paschal Lamb Sacrifice must be eaten. This is not symbolic. They word used means to literally “chew.” He commanded them to perpetuate this Sacrifice of His Body and Blood and this was foretold in Malachi.

Since you are “untaught” by Apostolic Successors but rely on your own judgment, then according to Peter, you are incorrect in your judgment of what God’s Word actually means.

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”

Peter states that those who are untaught by the Church (2 Timothy 2:2) are unstable as to what correct doctrine is and so they twist the Scriptures to their own destruction. If you look closely, Peter also states that when people do this, they fall from grace because they are led away from the truth by the errors of the wicked (those who twist Scripture to mean what they want it to mean). In other words, they are no longer justified. We must endure to the end of our lives in sanctifying grace by following Christ and living His truth in order to inherit eternal life.

1 Corinthians 9:25 “And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.”

2 Timothy 2:5 “And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.”

2 Timothy 4:6-8 “For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Revelation 2:10-11 "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’

We must endure to the end of our lives “following” Jesus and obeying His commandments in order to receive the crown of eternal life.

1 Peter 4:16-18 "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

2 Timothy 4:3-4 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” (Protestant revolt and other heresies)

2 Timothy 2:10-12 “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.”

Matthew 24:11-13 “Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.”

Only those who obey the gospel of Jesus and endure in this obedience until their deaths actually receive the crown of eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

No! His sacrifice was completed on earth. Who’s in heaven now, seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High, functioning there as the believer’s Intercessor and High Priest, is a resurrected (unto glory) Christ. It is impossible for His body to be subject to death again (as will the believer’s glorified body). His, once for all, blood sacrifice for sins began on earth and ended on earth (that same day). He was then buried and three days later rose to new life - everlasting life. He being what Scripture calls “the first fruits” (1 Cor. 15:20).

No one is saying that Christ’s body is subject to death again, but (Heb 7:25; 8:1-3) says Jesus is in heaven offering sacrifices and making intercessions.

What other sacrifice would Jesus be offering (on our behalf) other than His “once for all” sacrifice?

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

Respectfully, that is a wild boast.

I stated a fact; that’s not a boast.

ryanoneil:

There is a big difference between no doctrine existing and disagreeing with our doctrine.

I didn’t say anything about “no doctrine existing,” but “no developed” doctrine of regeneration,” and in IMO, a narrow understanding of “union with Christ” which emphasizes “union with the Church” uber alles. Concerning the former, you’re “born again” at baptism, but what does “born again” entail, what changes are wrought in the individual, and what’s the purpose of those changes?

ryanoneil:

We are using the same language to describe different things, so I don’t understand what you mean by being certain about your uncertainty.

What I’m saying Ryan, is, I’m as certain of my past reprobation as I am of my future glorification—the euangelion, “the good tidings…” “the Gospel.” How is the possibility of you screwing up, even to the loss of salvation, good news?

A soteriology which states one “might be saved, provided he meets certain conditions,” is the “law in disguise.”

Paraphrasing Luther: the law says “do this,” and it can’t be done; grace says “believe this,” and it’s already done. I find that to be the gospel.

ryanoneil:

I’m not sure what you are suggesting here.

I’m suggesting a look at the biblical doctrine of man. I’ll give you some links if you’re interested.

 

[ryanoneil]

Thusiastêrion. The writer of Hebrews wrote his Epistle before 70 A.D.; that is, while the Temple in Jerusalem was still standing and operating. So he says that we (believing Jews) have an altar from which those (unbelieving Jews) who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. In context he’s using the word “altar” figuratively and in reference to the cross of Christ.

I’m not denying this, but it is more than figurative language. And the context of Christian worship is compaired against OT worship throughout the entire letter.

The author tells his readers in verse nine not to be carried away by varied and strange doctrines, but rather to be strengthened by GRACE; not foods sacrificed on the altar prescribed under the Old Covenant - which did not benefit them in respect to eternal salvation.

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6:52-56)

Figuratively speaking, the believing Jew now under the New Covenant inaugurated in Christ’s blood has, in contrast to the Old Covenant, an “altar” which those unbelieving Jews who continue to persist in the ordinances of the Old Covenant, have no right to partake: That being the cross of Christ and the GRACE of God as a result of it.

And what context did Jesus mention the New Covenant?

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you. (Luke 22:19-20)

The antitype of the Old Covenant’s brazen altar (where the shed blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins) is the cross of Christ where His blood was shed, once for all, thereby taking away the sins of all who believe in Him.

According to the law almost everything is purified by blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. (Heb 9:22-24)

Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. (Mat 26: 27-28)

"For the Law, since it has {only} a shadow of the good things to come {and} not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those {sacrifices} there is a reminder of sins year by year… for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins…

And “the very form” of things implies that the liturgy of the New Covenant, which celebrates the saving work of Christ, still utilizes visible and sacramental signs for worship. So, the cermonial “food and drink” as well as the “baptisms” of the Levitical order (Heb 9:10) foreshadow the sacraments of the Eucharist (Heb 13:10) and Baptism (Heb 10:22).

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all… Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God" (Heb. 10:1-12; cf. Jn. 3:14-18).

Yes. The earthly dimension of Christ’s priesthood is difinitively finished which is why he sat down at the right hand of the Father, but his ministry as a heavenly priest and intercessor is ongoing.

What the writer of Hebrews is saying, in context, is that the church has no literal altar since He who was sacrificed for our sins 2000 years ago was sacrificed “once for all,” and by that one sacrifice took away the believer’s sins, once for all (Col. 2: 13-14). So, there’s no need for an altar where no more sacrifice is required. Why? Because as Jesus said: “It is finished.” Enter a New Covenant made with better promises (Heb. 8:6).

And how does Christ apply this to us in the present? Through Eucharistic Communion. . . through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh (Heb 10:19-20)

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. (John 6:54-56)

I don’t think that anyone will deny that the author of Hebrew is using figurative language, but like Christ, it is more than just figurative.

 

[SHW]

No! His sacrifice was completed on earth. Who’s in heaven now, seated at the right hand of the Majesty on High, functioning there as the believer’s Intercessor and High Priest, is a resurrected (unto glory) Christ. It is impossible for His body to be subject to death again (as will the believer’s glorified body). His, once for all, blood sacrifice for sins began on earth and ended on earth (that same day). He was then buried and three days later rose to new life - everlasting life. He being what Scripture calls “the first fruits” (1 Cor. 15:20).

His Body is not subjected to death again. His Body is made present on the altars in Catholic Churches in the same manner as He provided It at the Last Supper: under the appearances of bread and wine. He combined the two sacrifices of the two priesthoods in the Old Testament (bread and wine of Melchizedek and paschal lamb of Levites.) He is the Paschal Lamb. Paschal lambs must be eaten. Jesus actually provided His Paschal Lamb Sacrifice to be eaten before His actual death on the cross. How can He do this? He is God!

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

What the writer of Hebrews is saying, in context, is that the church has no literal altar since He who was sacrificed for our sins 2000 years ago was sacrificed “once for all,” and by that one sacrifice took away the believer’s sins, once for all (Col. 2: 13-14). So, there’s no need for an altar where no more sacrifice is required. Why? Because as Jesus said: “It is finished.” Enter a New Covenant made with better promises (Heb. 8:6).

“It is finished” means that Jesus has fulfilled all of the prophecies concerning Him in the Psalms, Prophets, and Law of Moses.

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

Matthew 11:12-15 “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Luke 16:16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.”

Luke 24:44-45 "Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. 45 And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. "

When Jesus said “It is finished” He meant that the Old Covenant had been consummated/finished/fulfilled. He had fulfilled all of the Psalms, Prophecies, and the Law concerning Him. The New Covenant begins with His Body and Blood given at the Last Supper in anticipation of His death (Luke 22:19, Matthew 26:28) and His subsequent death, resurrection, and ascension.

He said that He would not eat of the vine again until He drank it new in His kingdom.

Matthew 26:29 " But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom." (Mark 14:25)

When did He next drink of the fruit of the vine (wine)?

John 19:30 “So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant. It is finished/consummated. It is now obsolete.

Hebrews 8:13 " In that He says, “A new covenant, ”He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

So, where is this “kingdom of God” in which He drank wine anew in His kingdom?

Luke 17:21 “nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

John 6:56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.”

It makes no difference whether you believe it or not. Jesus is truly present (Body and Blood) under the appearances of bread and wine in all Catholic Masses throughout the world and we are commanded to eat and drink of Them in order for Him to abide in us and us to abide in Christ.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

I didn’t say anything about “no doctrine existing,” but “no developed” doctrine of regeneration,” and in IMO, a narrow understanding of “union with Christ” which emphasizes “union with the Church” uber alles. Concerning the former, you’re “born again” at baptism, but what does “born again” entail, what changes are wrought in the individual, and what’s the purpose of those changes?

Are Catholics born again? is a great article that can be read (right here at Catholic Answers).

What I’m saying Ryan, is, I’m as certain of my past reprobation as I am of my future glorification—the ***euangelion, “the good tidings…” “the Gospel.” ***

God is the only one who knows about someone’s future glorification. Didn’t you say the distinction between a true Christian and a false Christian is that the false Christian does not persevere to the end?

Wait! Don’t answer that! I said I was done beating a dead horse.

How is the possibility of you screwing up, even to the loss of salvation, good news?

Is the possibility of being created for the purpose of damnation good news? (which isn’t the Catholic position)

A soteriology which states one “might be saved, provided he meets certain conditions,” is the “law in disguise.”

How do Protestant Calivinists make a distinction between true faith and false faith again?

Paraphrasing Luther: the law says “do this,” and it can’t be done; grace says “believe this,” and it’s already done.

Where is that in Scripture?

I’m suggesting a look at the biblical doctrine of man. I’ll give you some links if you’re interested.

Honestly, I’m not trying to be difficult for the sake of it. I’m going overboard to emphasize that your developed doctrine isn’t so air tight.

Seriously, I’ll take a look at the links you provide. Will you read the link I provided?

 

[ryanoneil]

P.S. My agnostic wife, who was raised Reformed, is happy to know that she is going to heaven because she gave her heart to Jesus when she was five years old.

 

[moondweller]

His Body is not subjected to death again. His Body is made present on the altars in Catholic Churches in the same manner as He provided It at the Last Supper:

At the Last Supper He took bread and wine and said eat and drink “in remembrance of Me.”

According to Catholic teaching Mass is a true, propitiatory sacrifice, and such a sacrifice would require death. According to Catholic teaching the Mass “re-presents” Christ’s actual sacrifice, and that would require His death. So unless you’re saying Christ didn’t actually die on the cross (which would be heresy), then you must logically conclude that, according to Catholic teaching, the glorified body of Christ is being subject to death millions of times a day.

But according to the Scriptures Jesus died “once for all” and was subsequently raised to new life with a glorified body which cannot be subject to death again. That’s the whole point of His being resurrected unto glory and He being the “first fruits” from the dead.

According to the Scriptures Jesus is in heaven not in His body of humility (crucified, dead body) but in His resurrected, glorified body (did you not read the end of the Gospel accounts?).

His resurrected body is a real, material body. And a real, material body can be in only one place at one time. It cannot be be simultaneously dead and living, sacrificed on earth millions a times a day in millions of places and at the same time glorified in heaven. Else it’s not a true, human body.

You see, SHW, the Son was incarnated a true man, not a superman. He became like us in all things - except sin. Can you be in more than one place at one time? Can you be simultaneously dead and living, glorified and unglorified? Of course not. Nor can the Son in His humanity. Else He’s not truly human. But the wonder of the ages is that the Son took on humanity and in His humanity, died, and was physically raised unto glory three days later. Our High Priest in heaven is a true, glorified MAN “who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory” (Phil. 3:21).Rom 4:25 {He} who was delivered over (to death) because of our transgressions, and was raised (to glory) because of our justification.

 

[moondweller]

P.S. My agnostic wife, who was raised Reformed, is happy to know that she is going to heaven because she gave her heart to Jesus when she was five years old.

Well, tell her to take it back and with it believe in Him (Rom. 10:10).