What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

The problem is you read the developed claims, now called “traditions,” of the Roman Catholic church into Augustine’s writings. When Augustine refers to “the catholic church” I don’t for one moment believe he meant the RCC and all of its later claims to absolute authority, as you do. Nor would the Eastern church.

In the first place, Augustine, by himself, is not infallible by true definition any more than you or I am. Of course, I believe that he was a lot smarter than I am. But his teachings may or may not be completely true. Some of his teachings contradicted other Early Church Fathers’ teachings.

Catholics are allowed to believe what they wish about a subject until and unless a formal teaching is pronounced. Of course, some ideas are not worthy of belief at all and may be deemed as such by the Church without giving a formal definition about should be believed instead. And if the Church states that we should not believe a certain point of view, then we are bound by this decision. A case in point is the debate about End Times things.

The Church has not declared an official teaching about it but it has said that it rejects pre-millenial and post-millenial views. scripturecatholic.com/second_coming.html

Since you choose to ignore the Scriptures which claim “authority” for the early Church leaders and their successors, and you also refuse to believe in a sacerdotal priesthood, then I believe that we are at an impasse and we should discontinue this discussion.

The Eastern (Orthodox) Churches are schismatic because they do not believe in the primacy of the pope (bishop of Rome).

Here are excerpts from the writings of Early Church Fathers:

Irenaeus (A.D. 189)

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

Cyprian of Carthage (A.D. 251-253)

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]). … **On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was *, but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. ***So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

“Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church” (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).

“Cornelius was made bishop by the decision of God and of his Christ, by the testimony of almost all the clergy, by the applause of the people then present, by the college of venerable priests and good men … when the place of Fabian, which is the place of Peter, the dignity of the sacerdotal chair, was vacant. Since it has been occupied both at the will of God and with the ratified consent of all of us, whoever now wishes to become bishop must do so outside [the Church]. For he cannot have ecclesiastical rank who does not hold to the unity of the Church” (ibid., 55[52]:8).

“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (ibid., 59:14).

Just as there is a “chair” of Moses (Matthew 23:2 NASB), there is a “chair” of Peter.

I know that where the legitimate Pope is, the True Church is. We could even have more than one person claiming to be Pope when the present one dies or if he is forced into exile. Or the new legitimate Pope chosen after the present one dies could be exiled and another claim his place and move into the Vatican. The Vatican “buildings” do not matter. The legitimate Pope is the successor of Peter and wherever he is; palace or cottage or catacomb, there is the Church.

Pax,
SHW

P.S. The Early Church Fathers say they have “Sacerdotal” unity with the Church in Rome. Sacerdotal means “of priests” or the “office of priest.”

 

[SHW]

I don’t believe in baptismal regeneration.

Fine with me. You have free will.

Baptism:

John 3:3 "Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 28:19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”

Ephesians 5:26 “that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,”

Titus 3:5 “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,”

Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were **baptized into Christ **Jesus were baptized into His death?”

Galatians 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Acts 10:48 “And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.”

If you do not believe, then you will not be baptized, and if you are not baptized then you are not saved but you are condemned instead. Baptism makes us disciples of Christ. Baptism regenerates us spiritually: we are born again spiritually into the household of God through Baptismal water and the words “I baptize thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

1 Timothy 3:15 “but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

Good thing you are already baptized. You may be saved in spite of yourself.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

It did fulfill all of the Scriptures concerning His redemptive work on the earth in His earthly human body: His birth, life, death on the “cross,” resurrection, and ascension; because they can never be repeated since He now sits at His Father’s right hand.

Nor can it be re-presented because He is risen, glorified and sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

However, it did not fulfill Malachi 1:11 because it is being fulfilled right now just as Jesus stated at His Last Supper: “Do this in remembrance for me” for the “remission of sins.”

“For the remission of sins?” Where does it say that after “Do this in remembrance of Me?”

This Scripture of the Old Testament is being fulfilled right now:

Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,”
Says the LORD of hosts.”
Right now, this Scripture is being fulfilled in every Catholic Mass.

This prophecy has nothing to do with “Communion” or the Catholic “Mass.” First of all the ordinance of “Communion” has to do only with the church Christ is now building, and the church is not in the O.T. prophecies. Second, that prophecy has to do with the future Millennial reign of Christ after His second advent. A time when all the earth will be united in worship of God and His Messiah who will be ruling over the house of Jacob on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32-33). That Malachi prophecy is similar to this one in Isaiah:Is 66:18-23 “For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. Then they (the Gentiles) shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. I will also take some of them for priests {and} for Levites,” says the LORD. For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, “So your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD."And this one in Zechariah:Zech 14:9, 16 "And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one… Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths."And this one in Zephaniah:Zeph 3:8-9 “Therefore wait for Me,” declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder."No, my friend, that Malachi passage will not be fulfilled until the Lord Himself returns physically to this earth to reign over it. As for now His name is hardly “great among the Gentiles.” Incense is not being offered by them in His name and the majority of the Gentiles know nothing of a “pure” offering to the Lord. It was Christ who was offered up for them, not the other way around. And the majority of the Gentiles don’t believe in Him. But the day will come when the Lord will be king over all the earth and all its inhabitants will worship Him. Then, and only then, will the Mal. 11:1 prophecy concerning Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[SHW]

Nor can it be re-presented because He is risen, glorified and sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high.“For the remission of sins?” Where does it say that after "Do this in remembrance of Me?

Matthew 26:28 “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Luke 22:19 "And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

1 Corinthians 11:23-27 “For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “**This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 ** For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.”

John 6:55 “For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.” Literal, not symbolic.

"This prophecy has nothing to do with “Communion” or the Catholic “Mass.” First of all the ordinance of “Communion” has to do only with the church Christ is now building, and the church is not in the O.T. prophecies. Second, that prophecy has to do with the future Millennial reign of Christ after His second advent. A time when all the earth will be united in worship of God and His Messiah who will be ruling over the house of Jacob on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32-33).

I disagree. Jesus never rules on earth “literally” for 1000 years but He does rule in Christian hearts until He returns at His Second Coming. The kingdom of God is within us.

We take the 1000 years in Revelation to be be the “time of the Gentiles” (Malachi 1:11) on earth because the “kingdom of God is within us.” Jesus’ Church is open to both Jew and Gentile but the Remnant Jews do not join with her until the end of time so this 1000 years of Jesus’ rule in our hearts is also called the time of the nations of the Gentiles.

Luke 17:20-21 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Malachi 1:11 “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.”

This means that right now, in these times of the Gentiles in which you and I live, that this pure offering (Jesus’ Body and Blood truly present in the Holy Eucharist) is being offered daily (from the rising of the sun, even to its going down) in Catholic Masses throughout the world (among the nations) for the remission of sins and this miracle will continue until Jesus returns.

Revelation 20:3 “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

We are living in this time period (1000 years) right now.

2 Peter 3:8 “But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”

If you read the whole letter of 2 Peter, he explains it more clearly. All of these epistles were written without chapter and verse distinctions. It was but one manuscript (with no grammatical notations either).

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Peter warns against the wickedness and snares of the “devil.” This also means that his cohorts, the other fallen angels who take their orders from him, are also trying to deceive us so that we lose our salvation.

Revelation 12:9 “So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

This happened at the very beginning when God created the heavens and the earth and the angelic beings.

Revelation 20:1-3 "Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

This chaining or constraint of Satan’s power happened at the time of the Incarnation of the Son of God so that His Church could prosper and give glory to God.

All fallen angels are under the devil’s command. The devil (Satan) was symbolically put on a leash chain, meaning that his powers have been limited in the “thousand years” age between the Incarnation of the Son of God and His Second Coming. Satan still commands his minions however while on this symbolic leash. But he is not allowed to do as much damage as he would like to. Revelation Scripture depicts the “war between good and evil” and the eventual “triumph of good over evil” and it is written in this “symbolic” manner.

However, God will allow the devil to be very active during the last days, when the thousand years are ended. Our Lord said that those times would be marked by tribulation, the like of which had never been seen before (Matthew 24:21-22). St. Paul refers to the "man of lawlessness (Antichrist) who will take his seat in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-8).

Perhaps the devil has already been released from his long leash in these times of murder by abortion, homosexual “rights,” and unbridled fornication and adultery, etc. and that the time of the Antichrist is very near?

Plowshares and pruning hooks:

Concerning the peace which speaks of “plowshares and pruning hooks,” it means the peace at the end of time (Eschatological Peace) when Jesus returns at His Second Coming and delivers up His kingdom to His Father. This peace will last forever because the devil and death and all that offends God will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10-15). Those who have endured to the end of their lives obeying the Gospel of Jesus will receive the crown of eternal life (James 1:12).

Micah 4:3 “And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (See also Isaiah 2:4)

"There are 7 meanings of “peace.”

1. Inner Peace
2. Peace in the Community
3. Peace with God
4. Civil Order
5. Absence of War
6. Tranquility of Order
7. Eschatological Peace

Micah and Isaiah are speaking of # 7.

"Eschatological Peace

Finally, peace will come at the end of time, when Christ establishes once and for all the Kingdom. This is the eschatological peace of the end times when all things will be renewed in Christ and “every knee will bow… and every tongue confess to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord” (Phil. 2:10-11). This will be peace in the complete sense, shalôm in its fullness. It is the peace described by the prophet Isaiah when he says that we “shall beat our swords into plowshares and our spears into pruning hooks; one nation shall not raise the sword against another, nor shall they train for war again” (Is. 2:4). At the end time, in the fullness of the Kingdom, the lion will lie with the lamb and the child play at the cobra’s den (cf. Is. 11)."

From:
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0703fea1sb2.asp

1 Corinthians 15:24-25 “Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

Jesus never returns to the Old Covenant Law of Moses and sacrifice. They were made obsolete by His New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13).

John speaks of the “New Jerusalem” the city which comes down from heaven --meaning that the complete establishment of the messianic Kingdom, an event so long desired, is brought about by the power of God and in fulfillment of his will. (Revelation 21)

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

What Did the First Christians Say about the literal presence of Jesus in the Eucharist?

"Anti-Catholics also claim the early Church took this chapter (John 6) symbolically. Is that so? Let’s see what some early Christians thought, keeping in mind that we can learn much about how Scripture should be interpreted by examining the writings of early Christians.

Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

Forty years later, Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. “I wish to admonish you with examples from your religion. You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish. You account yourselves guilty, and rightly do you so believe, if any of it be lost through negligence” (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).

Cyril of Jerusalem, in a catechetical lecture presented in the mid-300s, said, “Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that, for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ” (Catechetical Discourses: Mystagogic 4:22:9).

In a** fifth-century homily, Theodore of Mopsuestia **seemed to be speaking to today’s Evangelicals and Fundamentalists: “When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood,’ for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements], after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit, not according to their nature, but to receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord” (Catechetical Homilies 5:1)."

More details at: catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

This is part of the written historical record of how the First Christians believed.

---

John 6:52-56 “The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.”

Notice that Jesus did not correct them and say, “I only meant it symbolically.” Instead, He reaffirmed His teaching and those who did not believe Him literally “walked with Him no more:”

John 6:66-67 "From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

The Eucharistic Service (Mass) was passed down through Apostolic Succession. There was no need to have it all written down in the Bible. It was “taught” to the Apostles by Jesus and the Holy Spirit (John 14:26). These Apostles in turn passed it down to others.

2 Timothy 1:6 “Therefore I remind you to stir up the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.”

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

I think we need to agree to disagree and move on. I’ve got other things I need to do for others. May God bless you.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Christian7801]

Nor can it be re-presented because He is risen, glorified and sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high.“For the remission of sins?” Where does it say that after "Do this in remembrance of Me?“This prophecy has nothing to do with “Communion” or the Catholic “Mass.” First of all the ordinance of “Communion” has to do only with the church Christ is now building, and the church is not in the O.T. prophecies. Second, that prophecy has to do with the future Millennial reign of Christ after His second advent. A time when all the earth will be united in worship of God and His Messiah who will be ruling over the house of Jacob on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32-33). That Malachi prophecy is similar to this one in Isaiah:Is 66:18-23 “For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. Then they (the Gentiles) shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. I will also take some of them for priests {and} for Levites,” says the LORD. For just as the new heavens and the new earth which I make will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “So your offspring and your name will endure. And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the LORD."And this one in Zechariah:Zech 14:9, 16 "And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one… Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths."And this one in Zephaniah:Zeph 3:8-9 “Therefore wait for Me,” declares the LORD, "For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, All My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder."No, my friend, that Malachi passage will not be fulfilled until the Lord Himself returns physically to this earth to reign over it. As for now His name is hardly “great among the Gentiles.” Incense is not being offered by them in His name and the majority of the Gentiles know nothing of a “pure” offering to the Lord. It was Christ who was offered up for them, not the other way around. And the majority of the Gentiles don’t believe in Him. But the day will come when the Lord will be king over all the earth and all its inhabitants will worship Him. Then, and only then, will the Mal. 11:1 prophecy concerning Gentiles be fulfilled.

Hello MoonDweller - I agree with your assessment; nice work!

 

[ryanoneil]

Based on divine revelation:Rom 5:9 “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.”

Eph 1:7 “In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace”

Col 1:20 “…and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, {I say,} whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Heb 9:12 “…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

Rev 1:5 "…and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood"What’s applied is all that the shedding of His sacrificial blood on the cross accomplished. To name a few, based on the verses above: our justification, the release and forgiveness of our sins, our eternal redemption, reconciliation and peace with God. These are applied to the sinner, in full, at the time of personal belief in Christ - according to the Scriptures.

And how does that happen?

Christ is **“always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them” (Heb. 7:25). **

What is the basis of this intercession?

The sacrifice of the Cross (Heb. 7:27; 9:12; 10:14), which is forever present before God in the heavenly tabernacle because he who was both offered as victim and who offered the sacrifice as priest “appears before God on our behalf” (Heb. 9:24).

And that “once for all” sacrifice is applied to us here on earth. In other words, the offering of Himself that Christ makes continuously in heaven simply by His presence there, breaks through to us here.

So, what is stopping the Lord from doing this in a Sacramental manner?

Nothing!

 

[moondweller]

Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."He’s saying this in anticipation and in reference to His sacrificial death which was about to occur. If we were to take it literally as you do then one must conclude that the New Covenant didn’t begin with His death on the cross but there in the upper room prior to His death. A gross error, indeed.

John 6:55

And yet not one writer of the Gospel accounts connects John 6:51-58 with His instituting the ordinance of Communion. So you really have no Scriptural support for your interpretation. Transubstantiation is not based on Scriptural revelation but merely men’s interpretation. And a poor one at that.

I disagree. Jesus never rules on earth “literally” for 1000 years but He does rule in Christian hearts until He returns at His Second Coming. The kingdom of God is within us.

Jesus was “born king of the Jews” (Matt. 2:2), not “king of hearts.” You don’t accept the fact of His future, literal rule on earth because you don’t believe the ancient Hebrew prophets, nor what Gabriel said to Mary:Luke 1:32-33 "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."David’s throne was literal and in Jerusalem, not spiritual and in the hearts of men.

We take the 1000 years in Revelation to be be the “time of the Gentiles” on earth because the “kingdom of God is within us.”

The “Times of the Gentiles” is not described as a time when “the kingdom of God is within us.” But is in reference to Jerusalem’s being trodden down by Gentile armies (Lk. 21:24). This began with the Babylonian captivity and ends with the second advent of Christ when He returns as “king of Kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:11 - 20:4). At this time the words Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation will be literally fulfilled.

SHW, all the prophecies about the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus were fulfilled literally, so there’s no reason not to expect that those prophecies which predicted His kingdom reign as the Son of David will also be fulfilled literally. This is the warning Paul makes to Gentiledom in Rom. 11:Rom 11:17-18 "But if some of the branches were broken off, and you (Gentiles) , being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, {remember that} it is not you who supports the root, but the root {supports} you…

Rom 11:25-27 "For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB. THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."There’s a difference between the “Times of the Gentiles” and the “fulness of the Gentiles.” The “Times of the Gentiles” is political and ends with the return of Christ as King of kings to rule over this earth from His father David’s throne in Jerusalem. The “fulness of Gentiles” is spiritual and refers to the last Gentile that comes into the church, through faith, Christ is presently building while sitting on His Father’s throne in heaven.

But His Father’s throne in heaven is not His father David’s throne on earth on which Gabriel promised to Mary that her Son would reign. Catholics do a great disservice to Mary by robbing her Son of His rightful throne.

 

[ryanoneil]

I don’t believe in baptismal regeneration.

Here’s a short essay dealing with regeneration, in the ordo salutis.

Thanks for the link. I don’t want to comment before I read it a few more times.

 

[moondweller]

And how does that happen?

Christ is **“always able to save those who approach God through him, since he lives forever to make intercession for them” (Heb. 7:25). **

What is the basis of this intercession?

The sacrifice of the Cross (Heb. 7:27; 9:12; 10:14), which is forever present before God in the heavenly tabernacle because he who was both offered as victim and who offered the sacrifice as priest “appears before God on our behalf” (Heb. 9:24).

And that “once for all” sacrifice is applied to us here on earth. In other words, the offering of Himself that Christ makes continuously in heaven simply by His presence there, breaks through to us here.

So, what is stopping the Lord from doing this in a Sacramental manner?

Nothing!

That sacrifice took place 2000 years ago in our world’s time, space continuum. He died and subsequently rose from out of the dead with a glorified body three days later. HE, the glorified, risen Savior appears before God as the believer’s High Priest functioning as his Intercessor and Advocate. There is no continuous blood offering being made in heaven.Heb 9:11-12 "But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."The ordinance of Communion is to be done “in remembrance” of Him (an act of faith) because what He accomplished for the believer’s eternal redemption was “finished,” “once for all,” 2000 years ago right here on this earth in our time, space, continuum. What He accomplished is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Please explain to me, Ambrose, how it is you’ve come to understand the RCC to be in possession of all truth, infallibily, while at the same time not employing the use of any of your own private judgment concerning scripture, history, and church self-proclamations, in arriving at your conclusions. :ehh:

Please also explain to me Howie, how you’ve come to understand the Bible is indeed the Sacred Word of God. You know the Bible was decided upon by this same Church which you consider to be so fallible. Why are YOU so inconsistent, by believing wholly in the Bible, while rejecting the doctrines of the very same men that decided on what was to be included in the Bible as the Sacred Word of God? Why do you accept their teaching on what makes up the Bible, but not their doctrine? It has nothing contained within it to recommend it. It is full of contradictions and narrative errors. How can you swallow everything in the Bible, but stick at something like Doctrines of the Church, when they both come from the same place? Are you really just capricious in your beliefs?

 

[sodak]

I’m having trouble with the double-nested quotes, so I’ll try and get these right.

But the sacrifice of Christ is not timeless. It began and finished in our time, space continuum.

Christ’s sacrifice has be efficacious over time, otherwise none of us would be saved. It might not be timeless to us here on earth, but God lives in all time, all the time.

But you can a material body.But a material body is not. Jesus is the Son incarnated a man; not a man incarnated God.

He is the Word made flesh, that is correct. However, I still contend that you can’t box God in, whether he is walking here on earth or not. Jesus, after his resurrection, promised that wherever 2 or more of us gather, he will be there also. That’s impossible, on our understanding of physical laws, but nothing is impossible for God.

One need not wait for heaven to understand it. Even in heaven a material body can be in only one place at one time. That’s just a fact based on creation. In fact, that truth is applied to any created being (spirit or material).

If you ask any doctor based on the facts, it is also utterly impossible for a body that has been dead for 3 days to spontaneously come back to life. I don’t think that you will find a doctor on earth who would say otherwise, based on science and the facts. Faith is another matter entirely.

 

[Howie01]

AmbroseSJ:

Please also explain to me Howie, how you’ve come to understand the Bible is indeed the Sacred Word of God.

When are you going to answer my question, Ambrose?

I know the Bible is what it claims to be on the basis of internal statements it makes, and on the basis of the church preserving the manuscripts.

AmbroseSJ:

You know the Bible was decided upon by this same Church which you consider to be so fallible.

I do.

AmbroseSJ:

Why are YOU so inconsistent, by believing wholly in the Bible, while rejecting the doctrines of the very same men that decided on what was to be included in the Bible as the Sacred Word of God?

I don’t believe that having recognized the scriptures necessarily leads to a correct interpretation of them.

AmbroseSJ:

Why do you accept their teaching on what makes up the Bible, but not their doctrine?

Again, I don’t believe that one necessitates the other.

AmbroseSJ:

It has nothing contained within it to recommend it.

Sure it does.

AmbroseSJ:

It is full of contradictions and narrative errors.

OK, you’re suspicious of the bible. I’m not.

AmbroseSJ:

How can you swallow everything in the Bible, but stick at something like Doctrines of the Church, when they both come from the same place?

How can you swallow everything in Tradition, but stick at something like biblical statements that contradict Tradition?

AmbroseSJ:

Are you really just capricious in your beliefs?

Oh please, Ambrose. Here’s the statement of one of your fellows to me in a post on another thread a few weeks back:"But both Faith and logic dictate that the probability of me being wrong [believing the RCC is the one true church] is far less than the probability of you being wrong."He’s admitted his fallibility, and states that he’s doing nothing more than playing the odds because of the church’s “historical lineage.”

Is that what you’re doing? Are you playing the odds because of the church’s historical lineage?

Now answer my question:

Please explain to me, Ambrose, how it is you’ve come to understand the RCC to be in possession of all truth, infallibily, while at the same time not employing the use of any of your own private judgment concerning scripture, history, and church self-proclamations, in arriving at your conclusions. :ehh:

 

[Christian7801]

When are you going to answer my question, Ambrose?

I know the Bible is what it claims to be on the basis of internal statements it makes, and on the basis of the church preserving the manuscripts.

I do.

I don’t believe that having recognized the scriptures necessarily leads to a correct interpretation of them.

Again, I don’t believe that one necessitates the other.

Sure it does.

OK, you’re suspicious of the bible. I’m not.

How can you swallow everything in Tradition, but stick at something like biblical statements that contradict Tradition?

Oh please, Ambrose. Here’s the statement of one of your fellows to me in a post on another thread a few weeks back:"But both Faith and logic dictate that the probability of me being wrong [believing the RCC is the one true church] is far less than the probability of you being wrong."He’s admitted his fallibility, and states that he’s doing nothing more than playing the odds because of the church’s “historical lineage.”

Is that what you’re doing? Are you playing the odds because of the church’s historical lineage?

Now answer my question:

Excuse the interruption, but which Bible are we speaking of? Doesn’t the Catholic version have more books added about 1200 years after the original books were closed. And, didn’t Peter say that the things Paul wrote were inspired; meaning part of what is known as the Bible has been in circulation many years before they were organized into a book? Most importantly, isn’t the author of Scripture and the Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, responsible for what we have as the Bible.
Isn’t kind of a mute point; since we have the Bible? Isn’t it also true that, what is known as the Apocrypha, a reaction to the reformers, and is known to be uninspired because it is with error geographically and historically and doesn’t the author of 2 Maccabees state that it is uninspired?

Seems like a straw-man argument since God can use both the good and the wicked to get us the Bible; IMO.

 

[ryanoneil]

That sacrifice took place 2000 years ago in our world’s time, space continuum. He died and subsequently rose from out of the dead with a glorified body three days later.

I agree.

HE, the glorified, risen Savior appears before God as the believer’s High Priest functioning as his Intercessor and Advocate. There is no continuous blood offering being made in heaven.Heb 9:11-12 “But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”

I agree. But now we are compairing apples (space time continuum) and oranges (eternity). Eternity is the “ever present now” (or what ever imagery you want to use to describe it).

Now every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus the necessity for this one also to have something to offer. (Heb 8:3)

Therefore, it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified by these rites, but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter into a sanctuary made by hands, a copy of the true one, but heaven itself, that he might now appear before God on our behalf. (Heb 9:23-24)

I don’t know how to say it any other way than Christ is eternally offering His atonement sacrifice in the sanctuary of heaven. Which is why it can be applied to us now and before it actually happened.

If you don’t agree with this, PLEASE tell me what Christ is offering in heaven?
What other intercession or advocacy is there after it is “finished”?

The ordinance of Communion is to be done “in remembrance” of Him (an act of faith) because what He accomplished for the believer’s eternal redemption was “finished,” “once for all,” 2000 years ago right here on this earth in our time, space, continuum. What He accomplished is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him.

And what is “remembrance” in the biblical sense?

In the Old Testament, atonement for the sins of the people was obtained once a year on the Day of Atonement when the high priest entered the holy of holies to offer sacrifices. They weren’t rembering in head knowledge only. The Passover was being applied to them in the present. They entered into the Passover.

Hebrews contrasts this with Christ who, as victim and high priest, offered the perfect sacrifice, once for all, on the Cross and who presented himself, as both victim and priest, in the true tabernacle, which is heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (Heb. 8:2-3; 9:11-12, 24).

Yes, Christ died in space time but it was finished when He offered it to the Father in the true sanctuary. Once in eternity His sacrifice was no longer limited to one point in space and time. It is in the “ever present now” in heaven and we enter into it “in remembrance” here and now.

Remembrance IS the time of belief.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Howie01:

When are you going to answer my question, Ambrose?

I know the Bible is what it claims to be on the basis of internal statements it makes, and on the basis of the church preserving the manuscripts.

Please quote these “internal statements” that you have. The Church did not preserve manuscripts, the Church DECIDED which manuscripts were indeed the inspired Word of God and which weren’t, and that is what you believe. If the Church hadn’t DECIDED, DECLARED AND MADE DOCTRINE the canon of the Bible, then Protestants would have no Bible whatever.

My acceptance of Church Doctrine ALONG with the Bible which THE CHURCH HERSELF has canonized, is completely consistent and logical. Your denial of what the Church teaches EXCEPT when it comes to what constitutes the Inspired Word of God is what is inconsistent and nonsensical. Please explain how the same Church can be guided by the Holy Spirit to infallibly declare the canon of the Scriptures, but in no other way can be trusted.

 

[fbl9]

Hi SHW and ryan…:thumbsup:keep it up…

Hi Christian 7801…you are mistaken in your belief that books were added 1200 yrs later.Those same boks you speak of were in the original Latin Vulgate.The OT cannon was upheld by the decisoin you are misinformed about.

 

[Howie01]

Christian7801:

Excuse the interruption, but which Bible are we speaking of? Doesn’t the Catholic version have more books added about 1200 years after the original books were closed. And, didn’t Peter say that the things Paul wrote were inspired; meaning part of what is known as the Bible has been in circulation many years before they were organized into a book? Most importantly, isn’t the author of Scripture and the Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, responsible for what we have as the Bible.

Isn’t kind of a mute point; since we have the Bible? Isn’t it also true that, what is known as the Apocrypha, a reaction to the reformers, and is known to be uninspired because it is with error geographically and historically and doesn’t the author of 2 Maccabees state that it is uninspired?

All true. The Catholic Canon was not “infallibly” declared until Trent, and even then it wasn’t officially infallible because the “infallibility doctrine” had yet to be declared.

Here’s a link on the Deuterocanon.

Christian7801:

Seems like a straw-man argument since God can use both the good and the wicked to get us the Bible; IMO.

There’s certainly a precedent for that, Jn 11:49-53.

However, I’d be careful of accusing the early church of wickedness; error on points, such as replacement theology, and infant baptism, sure.

 

[Howie01]

AmbroseSJ:

Please quote these “internal statements” that you have.

2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 3:16, all of the statements beginning “thus says the Lord…the Lord spoke to me saying…etc. in excess of 2,000 of them, in the OT, and the Jews having a canon.

AmbroseSJ:

The Church did not preserve manuscripts, the Church DECIDED which manuscripts were indeed the inspired Word of God and which weren’t, and that is what you believe.

If the church hadn’t preserved them, we wouldn’t have them now, would we.

AmbroseSJ:

If the Church hadn’t DECIDED, DECLARED AND MADE DOCTRINE the canon of the Bible, then Protestants would have no Bible whatever.

That’s right, though we’ve decided on different canons.

AmbroseSJ:

My acceptance of Church Doctrine ALONG with the Bible which THE CHURCH HERSELF has canonized, is completely consistent and logical.

And so is mine. Wherever RCC doctrine agrees with Scripture, I agree the RCC; where she doesn’t agree, I don’t agree with her.

AmbroseSJ:

Your denial of what the Church teaches EXCEPT when it comes to what constitutes the Inspired Word of God is what is inconsistent and nonsensical.

That’s a nonsensical statement because I don’t disagree with everything the church teaches except what constitutes Scripture. I agree with the church on the incarnation, the Trinity, the virgin birth, that Christ was crucified, died, buried, and raised on the third day, that He ascended into heaven, etc., everything that can be proven from Scripture.

AmbroseSJ:

Please explain how the same Church can be guided by the Holy Spirit to infallibly declare the canon of the Scriptures, but in no other way can be trusted.

Where the church’s doctrine departs from scripture, I depart from her.