What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[moondweller]

You are free to believe whatever you want.

I believe what the Scriptures say, you’re the one who believes whatever you want. In fact, you make the Scriptures say whatever you want by allegorizing and spiritualizing them.

**Jesus sent out these twelve after instructing them thus, "Do not go into pagan territory (**better translated “Geniles”****) or enter a Samaritan town. Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, make this proclamation: ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ (Mat 10:5-7)

It is clear Jesus’ instruction is to continue after His ascension.

(1) Then His disciples failed to obey His instructions because the DID go by way of the Gentiles and the Samaritans. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit who led them. Or maybe you’re just plain wrong in thinking that the gospel of salvation by grace through faith is synonymous with the message that “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

(2) Where in Matt. 28:19-20 does Jesus instruct them to preach the message that “The kingdom of heaven is at hand?”

**(3) ** Show me in the Book of Acts where any of them preached the message that “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords no matter how you spin it, which is why He is sitting on a throne in heaven.

I’m not spinning anything. The issue is not His identity of King of kings but whether or not He’s presently ruling and reigning over the earth as such on His heavenly Father’s throne - from heaven. YOU say He is, Scripture does not concur with you; but rather it’s revealed that He’s there functioning as the believer’s High Priest. He doesn’t reign as King of kings and Lord of lords until He returns to this earth (Rev. 19). All the Biblical prophecies that literally describe that time place the kingdom and the King on earth.

For this is why Christ died and came to life, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. (Rom 14:9)

This verse doesn’t address the issue of the “kingdom.” We know by His bodily resurrection that He’s “Lord” of both the living and the dead.

for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” (Rom 14:11)

Honestly, is this presently happening here on earth?

The formost reason for Christ’s return is the full arrival of the perfect and the replacement of the present heaven and earth. (Rev 21-22)

You’re simply asserting that Rev. 21-22 takes place at Christ’s second advent. However, Rev. 20 first reveals a thousand year period on earth immediately following the return of the “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:11-16; Rev. 20:1-7).

 

[moondweller]

Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us if we sin willfully after baptism.

Such a doctrine renders the cross of Christ insignificant, impotent, and impermanent. Scripture says:Heb 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:15 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1 Pet 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope (How? Through baptism? No) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance, imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."You fail to understand the power of Christ’s death and bodily resurrection.

If you do not continue in the faith, then you will not be saved when you die.

Notice how the following Pauline doctrine differs radically with your doctrine above?Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."You’re stating that one is eventually (in the future) saved by faith, not grace. But Paul tells us who have believed that we “have been saved” and that BY GRACE (God’s) THROUGH faith. IOW, it was gifted BY GRACE at the time of FAITH. As Paul said to the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved…” He believed and was saved. How? BY GRACE through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Your doctrine of salvation is characteristically dissimilar to that of Paul’s. By virtue of authority which of you are required to make the adjustment?

 

[ryanoneil]

I believe what the Scriptures say, you’re the one who believes whatever you want. In fact, you make the Scriptures say whatever you want by allegorizing and spiritualizing them.

What does Scripture say in (Ezekiel 37:9-14) and what literally happened (in history) to the people of Israel at the end of their captivity in Babylon?

There is no record of a mass resurrection of Jewish people from cemeteries, because the resurrection language symbolizes spiritual renewal. Unless you prove otherwise, that Scripture can not be read literally.

(1) Then His disciples failed to obey His instructions because the DID go by way of the Gentiles and the Samaritans. In fact, it was the Holy Spirit who led them. Or maybe you’re just plain wrong in thinking that the gospel of salvation by grace through faith is synonymous with the message that “The kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

(2) Where in Matt. 28:19-20 does Jesus instruct them to preach the message that “The kingdom of heaven is at hand?”

**(3) ** Show me in the Book of Acts where any of them preached the message that "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

It is called the gospel.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come. (Mat 24:14)

"I’m not spinning anything. The issue is not His identity of King of kings but whether or not He’s presently ruling and reigning over the earth as such on His heavenly Father’s throne - from heaven. YOU say He is, Scripture does not concur with you; but rather it’s revealed that He’s there functioning as the believer’s High Priest. He doesn’t reign as King of kings and Lord of lords until He returns to this earth (Rev. 19). All the Biblical prophecies that literally describe that time place the kingdom and the King on earth. This verse doesn’t address the issue of the “kingdom.” We know by His bodily resurrection that He’s “Lord” of both the living and the dead.

You are correct that Jesus is functioning as High priest but wrong about everything else. Scripture does say He is ruling and reigning in Heaven.

**For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:25)

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies! Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” At your right hand is the Lord, who crushes kings on the day of wrath, Who, robed in splendor, judges nations, crushes heads across the wide earth, Who drinks from the brook by the wayside and thus holds high the head. (Psalm 110)**

**She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Rev 12:5)

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)**

No mention of being on earth is there?

Honestly, is this presently happening here on earth?

Not completely. Reigning includes dealing with your enemies.

You’re simply asserting that Rev. 21-22 takes place at Christ’s second advent. However, Rev. 20 first reveals a thousand year period on earth immediately following the return of the “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:11-16; Rev. 20:1-7).

That is your simple assertion because you refuse to get past a literal reading of the Bible. If (Rev 19:11-16) is when you say Jesus physically returns then you need to back up to (Rev 14:17-20) because they are the same battle (Rev 14:20 and 19:15). And it never says anything about Jesus leaving heaven. You are reading that into the verse. Rev 20:1-4 doesn’t say anything about earth either. This is the same throne room in heaven from the first vision (Rev 4:1-4).

I answered all you questions, now please answer my earlier question.
Is the kingdom of heaven (in the seven parables) a seperate kingdom or not?

 

[ryanoneil]

This verse doesn’t address the issue of the “kingdom.” We know by His bodily resurrection that He’s “Lord” of both the living and the dead.

So do not let your good be reviled. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the holy Spirit; whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by others. Let us then pursue what leads to peace and to building up one another. (Rom 14:16-19)

 

[SHW]

Such a doctrine renders the cross of Christ insignificant, impotent, and impermanent. Scripture says: Heb 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Hi M.D.

Yes, Jesus redeemed all men. His ransom is eternal. But not all men are saved. Everyone who is redeemed and justified through baptism must continue to be justified in order to inherit eternal life when they die. You keep stressing two or three Scripture passages but you keep ignoring all others which do not support your interpretation of your two or three Scripture passages. You preach a partial gospel.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,”

Heb 9:15 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Yes, but the He only promised eternal life to those who love Him. “May receive” does not mean “will receive no matter what.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

If you do not keep His commandments, then you do not love Him and so you will not be approved for eternal life. We are tested by various trials and if we persevere in the faith until death, then we are approved for eternal life.

1 John 5:1-3 “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

1 John 2:5 “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

Jude 1:20-23 “But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Revelation 2:1-5 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,
‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent.”

If we do not keep His commandments, then we will not inherit eternal life. We are called liars if we do not keep His commandments. What happens to all liars?

Revelation 21:8 “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Baptism washes away our sins due to the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. He chose this manner in order to apply His sacrifice to our souls so that the Holy Spirit could take up residence within us so that we can inherit eternal life when we die.

Paul commands that we adhere to all the traditions, both oral and written which he taught. This is what is taught by Jesus’ church and also by Scripture, so I believe it.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

The Church teaches that we are redeemed by Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. We receive this free gift of grace through baptism. We make our profession of faith before we are baptized or else our parents make it for us if we are infants. We know that we must continue in the faith by obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruits (helping our neighbors) until our deaths in order to be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Scripture, properly interpreted, backs up the Catholic Church’s teachings.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Heb 9:12 "…and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:15 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were {committed} under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel. (Heb 12:22-24)

Therefore, we who are receiving the unshakable kingdom should have gratitude, with which we should offer worship pleasing to God in reverence and awe. For our God is a consuming fire. (Heb 12:28-29)

 

[moondweller]

You are correct that Jesus is functioning as High priest but wrong about everything else. Scripture does say He is ruling and reigning in Heaven.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Cor 15:25)

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion.

Notice it says “from Zion.” Zion is Jerusalem, not heaven. Let’s look closely at what the Psalm actually statess 110:1-3 The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, {saying,} “Rule in the midst of Your enemies.” Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;The scepter is stretched forth from Zion, not heaven. Ps. 110 is a Messianic Psalm about the Lord God giving dominion to the One who is both King and Priest. One who will serve both offices. He will be a Priest ruling on His throne. We see this combination also in Zech. 6:11-13. A prophecy concerning a man whose name is “Branch:”"Take silver and gold, make an {ornate} crown and set {it} on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. "Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’“Branch” is a Messianic name for the promised Messiah, a son of David, who would reign and rule from His father David’s throne in Jerusalem:Jer 23:5 “Behold, {the} days are coming,” declares the LORD, “When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land.”

Jer 33:15 'In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth."At that time He will fill both offices: King and Priest. Jesus Himself looks forward to the time when He will return to this earth and sit on His glorious throne (Rev. 3:21):Matt 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."This will fulfill what the angel Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation:Luke 1:31-32 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."Your Amillennialism robs Mary of this promise concerning her Son, and her Son of His rightful royal inheritance for which He was born (Matt. 2:2).

Can you show me where the church Christ is presently building while sitting on His Father’s throne in heaven is ever called “the house of Jacob?” Can you show me where Paul or any of the writers of the N.T. call Jesus “King of the church?”

She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. (Rev 12:5)

Notice it says “destined to rule the nations.” This is earthly, not heavenly. Also He is caught up to God and God’s throne, which He now shares functioning as the believer’s High Priest: Intercessor and Advocate before the Father. Jesus is certainly the Son of God, but you rob Him of His other identity as “Son of David” and the earthly hope attached to that glorious title.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Again, “nations,” “peoples of every language serve Him” is earthly, not heavenly. The “beasts” previously mentioned represent four earthly kingdoms and the Son of Man’s kingdom will take dominion over them all. His Kingdom has no yet come and is, in fact, the 5th and final kingdom on this earth “which will not be destroyed.” It corresponds with Dan. 2:44:“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and {that} kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.”

That is your simple assertion because you refuse to get past a literal reading of the Bible.

It’s not my assertion. It’s what the Scriptures literally teach. It’s you who refuse to accept what they reveal and impose on them your own spiritual and allegorical interpretation in order for them to fit your own theory.

That is your simple assertion because you refuse to get past a literal reading of the Bible. If (Rev 19:11-16) is when you say Jesus physically returns then you need to back up to (Rev 14:17-20) because they are the same battle (Rev 14:20 and 19:15).

Sheesh, man. Of course they’re the same battle. Rev. 14:14-20 is fulfilled at the time of Rev. 19:15. Jesus returns to do battle and conquer and to take possession of His father David’s throne in Jerusalem, just as the prophecies predict. In Scripture the church is not the Kingdom, the Kingdom is not the church. They’re two separate Divine programs. The church (not His mother but His bride) returns with Christ to rule with Him.

I answered all you questions, now please answer my earlier question. Is the kingdom of heaven (in the seven parables) a seperate kingdom or not?

It is not the political kingdom which is yet to come. During this time the King is absent.

What does Scripture say in (Ezekiel 37:9-14) and what literally happened (in history) to the people of Israel at the end of their captivity in Babylon?

Hardly, Ryan. Read verses 25-28. None of that prophecy has yet been fulfilled. Not till Israel’s Messiah returns.

 

[sodak]

The finished work of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins is setting up a “strawman?” Tell that to Paul and the other Apostles who received their word straight from Christ. Was Christ crucified nothing but a “scarecrow” story?

That’s not what my post was referring to, as you well know. I’m referring to your constant incorrect interpretation of Scripture.

By the way, the work of Christ on the cross wasn’t finished by his death. It was finished by his resurrection.

 

[SHW]

The issue is not His identity of King of kings but whether or not He’s presently ruling and reigning over the earth as such on His heavenly Father’s throne - from heaven. He doesn’t reign as King of kings and Lord of lords until He returns to this earth (Rev. 19). All the Biblical prophecies that literally describe that time place the kingdom and the King on earth.

Hi MD,

Actually, Scripture states that the Church is the heavenly Jerusalem and that it is here right now on earth and it will also be forever in heaven also.

Hebrews 12:14-24 “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.18 …22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" is present tense, not future tense. The “thousand years,” symbolic for a “period of time,” (2 Peter 3:8) is right now, the time period between Jesus’ Life, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension 2000 years ago and His Second Coming. The Church is this heavenly Jerusalem of Revelation 21.

Jesus resides in the tabernacles/temples of our souls. We receive Him in Holy Communion/Eucharist. An innumerable company of angels adore Him on our altars and in our tabernacles in Catholic Churches. The Church is the heavenly Jerusalem.

The Kingdom of God is here (at hand). He is reigning in our hearts. Jesus never establishes a literal earthly throne in the State of Israel. Earth is never His throne; it is only His footstool. His kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) His kingdom is within us (Luke 17:21) and His throne is in heaven. (Acts 7:48-51)

Matthew 3:1-2 "In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

Matthew 10:6-8 “But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.”

First, Jesus tells them to preach to the Jews. He stated that He was sent only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. (Matthew 15:22-28) When they are preaching to the Jews, then the Holy Spirit tells Paul to preach to the Gentiles and He specifically gives him this mission. (2 Timothy 1:11)

Where is the kingdom of God?

Luke 17:20-21 "Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

How is His “kingdom” within us?

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”

When we receive Him in Holy Communions, He becomes part of us. He gives us spiritual life. This is why the Hebrews writer states “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, [/Uto the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

The Church is the heavenly Jerusalem. The Church is the Bride of Christ. The Church provides Holy Mass and Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ. Revelation 21 is all about the Catholic Church, His Church. Jesus is the Bridegroom. (Ephesians 5:22-24, Mark 2:19-20) The Church is His Bride. (Revelation 21:9-11)

“Our everlasting blessedness is depicted in John’s vision of the New Jerusalem as “the marriage supper of the Lamb” (Rev. 19:9, 21:2, 9-10, 22:17).” For more information on prophetic Scriptures depicting this, see:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9109fea1.asp

You like to take Scripture in a literal manner when it suits your own doctrinal interpretations, yet you refuse to see this passage as literal when it really is literal:

John 6:49-58 "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

I believe it! Literally! :extrahappy:

Pax,
SHW

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

Again, “nations,” “peoples of every language serve Him” is earthly, not heavenly.

That’s YOUR interpretation, based on doctrine, which you first believed. Then you apply your false beliefs to Scripture verses.

moondweller:

We see this combination also in Zech. 6:11-13. A prophecy concerning a man whose name is “Branch:”

Yet here you are guilty of your own charge:

moondweller:

It’s you who refuse to accept what they reveal and impose on them your own spiritual and allegorical interpretation in order for them to fit your own theory.

So in some cases your doctrine interprets spiritually and allegorically, not always literally. But in other cases your doctrine interprets literally.

Why is it so hard for you to see that you are simply justifying your own false doctrine, in exactly the same manner as you believe the Catholic Church justifies her own doctrine?

Of course, I know the answer to that.

 

[moondweller]

That’s not what my post was referring to, as you well know. I’m referring to your constant incorrect interpretation of Scripture.

By the way, the work of Christ on the cross wasn’t finished by his death. It was finished by his resurrection.

His redemptive,* reconciliatory* and propitiatory work was finished on the cross. These are directly connected to and were accomplished, once for all, by His shed blood and sacrificial death. Now His High Priestly work as Intercessor and Advocate for believers began in heaven when He entered the heavenly Tabernacle through His own blood.

Like Paul, I argue only the cross of Christ. If you say I set up a “strawman,” then you are essentially saying the crucifixion (with it’s Divinely intended results as revealed in Scripture) is a “strawman.”

 

[moondweller]

So in some cases your doctrine interprets spiritually and allegorically, not always literally.

The text and context itself let’s the reader know if it is speaking literally or nonliterally. It’s the same in all literature.

You’re under the false notion that because the Bible deals with spiritual truths you, the reader, can interpret the Scriptures nonliterally whenever you wish. Such a hermeneutics would rob the Author (the Holy Spirit) of all authority in His writings and His writings would be subject to the fertile imaginations of men.

 

[fbl9]

His redemptive,* reconciliatory* and propitiatory work was finished on the cross. These are directly connected to and were accomplished, once for all, by His shed blood and sacrificial death. Now His High Priestly work as Intercessor and Advocate for believers began in heaven when He entered the heavenly Tabernacle through His own blood.

Like Paul, I argue only the cross of Christ. If you say I set up a “strawman,” then you are essentially saying the crucifixion (with it’s Divinely intended results as revealed in Scripture) is a “strawman.”

Yes HIS WORK OH MY GOSH DID CHRIST DO A WORK? on no Christ did a work He is evil just like the catholics…
Christ did His job now we have to do ours…what do you think carrying a cross is a walk in park?

Sorry St.Paul did not agrue the cross of Christ…St.Paul agrued Christ and Him crucified.
Moondweller SHW has given you more scripture to prove your beleifs as erroness than you have given to try and support your beleif system.

 

[SHW]

His redemptive,* reconciliatory* and propitiatory work was finished on the cross. These are directly connected to and were accomplished, once for all, by His shed blood and sacrificial death. Now His High Priestly work as Intercessor and Advocate for believers began in heaven when He entered the heavenly Tabernacle through His own blood.

Like Paul, I argue only the cross of Christ. If you say I set up a “strawman,” then you are essentially saying the crucifixion (with it’s Divinely intended results as revealed in Scripture) is a “strawman.”

Hi MD,

Colossians 1:24 “I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,”

How do we “fill up in our flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ?”

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

1 Corinthians 9:27 “But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

Luke 9:23 “Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.”

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

We all have some work to do if we wish to be approved after death for our crowns of eternal life!

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

I hope to pass the “test” of obedience to the gospel of Jesus so that I am saved for eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Those who do not know God and those who do not obey God are thrown into everlasting fire.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The text and context itself let’s the reader know if it is speaking literally or nonliterally. It’s the same in all literature.

You’re under the false notion that because the Bible deals with spiritual truths you, the reader, can interpret the Scriptures nonliterally whenever you wish. Such a hermeneutics would rob the Author (the Holy Spirit) of all authority in His writings and His writings would be subject to the fertile imaginations of men.

You don’t see how you just contradicted yourself??

According to you the text and context lets the reader know how to interpret. Then in the very next line you say because I (meaning the Catholic Church) have interpreted Scripture based on the text and context, we are robbing the Holy Spirit by our imaginings!!!

All you are ACTUALLY saying is that YOUR DOCTRINE is better than OUR DOCTRINE, because YOUR DOCTRINE says so!! At least OUR DOCTRINE claims to be infallible, does yours?? If so, show me where. If not, why do you act as if it is??

 

[BRB1]

I’ll repeat what I said in a previous post:"The inserted word “initial” prohibits the Catholic from ever resting on the all-glorious work of God’s Son for him at the cross - which rest amounts to FAITH through which “BY GRACE” God saves, giftwise (Gr. dorean, without-a-cause), i.e., “not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9)

MD …

Christ taught us to ABIDE in him. This implies one can’t ‘rest’ on their initial justification event. We must continue to apply the ‘work’ of Christ to our lives. This is what Catholics do … we let Christ apply his work / presence to us on regular basis.

Why are you so hung up on thinking Catholics believe our salvation rests upon ourselves, and our works? You really don’t understand Catholicism, but we here will expound the ‘fuller knowledge’ of the truth to you …

Its all about covenants. They started in OT times … and Christ has brought us the NEW covenant(s). One must practice / enjoy these new covenants [sacraments] … in order to fully abide in Christ. You had Baptism, and perhaps a Protestant form of Confirmation. But, from what I read in your past posts … you don’t appreciate need of regular Eucharist – as taught by the Catholic Church.

John 6:53-58 “Truly, truly, I say to you,UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood ABIDES in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

So, until you develop Catholic understandings about the real presense of Christ in the Eucharist … you are not in Full Communion with Christ & his Church. You possess part of the truth, and have experienced one or perhaps more of the Church’s Covenants of Christ … but, you have rejected a key teaching of Christ, the Apostles, and Paul … and don’t yet ABIDE in Christ in the complete sense, much less a sola scriptural sense.

 

[ryanoneil]

Notice it says “from Zion.” Zion is Jerusalem, not heaven. Let’s look closely at what the Psalm actually statess 110:1-3 The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for Your feet.” The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, {saying,} “Rule in the midst of Your enemies.” Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;The scepter is stretched forth from Zion, not heaven. Ps. 110 is a Messianic Psalm about the Lord God giving dominion to the One who is both King and Priest. One who will serve both offices. He will be a Priest ruling on His throne.

I assume you were in the process of typing this when I posted (Heb 12:22).

We see this combination also in Zech. 6:11-13. A prophecy concerning a man whose name is “Branch:”"Take silver and gold, make an {ornate} crown and set {it} on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.

That has been fulfilled. Like I said earlier, you are cutting and pasting Zechariah into utter confusion (but you avoided addressing any of that). Is now a good time to talk about Zechariah 11?

This will fulfill what the angel Gabriel said to Mary at the Annunciation:

Luke 1:31-32 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."Your Amillennialism robs Mary of this promise concerning her Son, and her Son of His rightful royal inheritance for which He was born (Matt. 2:2).
​

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, God’s dwelling is with the human race. He will dwell with them and they will be his people and God himself will always be with them (as their God). (Rev 21:1-3)

No one is being denied.

The “beasts” previously mentioned represent four earthly kingdoms and the Son of Man’s kingdom will take dominion over them all. His Kingdom has no yet come and is, in fact, the 5th and final kingdom on this earth “which will not be destroyed.” It corresponds with Dan. 2:44:"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and {that} kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever."It’s not my assertion. It’s what the Scriptures literally teach.

You are doing the same thing to Daniel that you did to Zechariah. The days of those kings have been gone for a few millenia. Daniels seventy weeks do not have a hidden parenthesis containing thousands of years.

The stone that becomes a mountain and the kingdom in the seven parables are one and the same.

Sheesh, man. Of course they’re the same battle. Rev. 14:14-20 is fulfilled at the time of Rev. 19:15. Jesus returns to do battle and conquer and to take possession of His father David’s throne in Jerusalem, just as the prophecies predict.

Jesus took possession of David’s throne at His ascencion. Daniel does not say when Jesus returns but when He is presented before the Father in heaven.

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Rev 14 and 19 happened within a generation of Christ’s first advent, which was the earthly proof the heavenly reality.

In Scripture the church is not the Kingdom, the Kingdom is not the church. They’re two separate Divine programs. The church (not His mother but His bride) returns with Christ to rule with Him. It is not the political kingdom which is yet to come. During this time the King is absent.

God is one, His Divine program is one, and His Church (in heaven and on earth) is one. They are not divided.

Hardly, Ryan. Read verses 25-28. None of that prophecy has yet been fulfilled. Not till Israel’s Messiah returns.

Get serious. The immediate context is what God would do at the end of their captivity in Babylon. They were brought back to Israel from captivity and became a nation once again. You do violence to Ezekiel and God by ignoring what was done for Israel.

How can you reconcile (Ezek 37:19) and (Zech 11:14) by skipping over Christ’s first coming and shooting straight to His second?

**Then I snapped asunder my other staff, “Bonds,” breaking off the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Zech 11:14)

answer them: Thus says the Lord GOD: (I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and of the tribes of Israel associated with him, and I will join to it the stick of Judah, making them a single stick; they shall be one in my hand. (Ezek 37:19)**

Some day you will realize that there is really no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all (Rom 10:12) and the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Rom 4:16). Maybe then you will understand what Paul is really saying.

I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:25-27)​

 

[sodak]

Like Paul, I argue only the cross of Christ. If you say I set up a “strawman,” then you are essentially saying the crucifixion (with it’s Divinely intended results as revealed in Scripture) is a “strawman.”

You are not St. Paul.

And I notice, you just set up yet another strawman, so that if someone argues against you, then they are arguing against the crucifixion. Wrong. You don’t have that authority, nice try.

 

[moondweller]

Actually, Scripture states that the Church is the heavenly Jerusalem and that it is here right now on earth and it will also be forever in heaven also.

Hebrews 12:14-24 “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.18 …22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.”

I don’t know how you can possibly get from that passage that the church IS the heavenly Jerusalem. The writer of Hebrews is telling his fellow Jewish believers that they’ve come (i.e., entered into the sphere of relationship) through faith in Christ (spiritually) to "Mt. Zion; historically, understood as the place of blessing for Jews; and to the heavenly Jerusalem. This city is not the church but a true, literal city built by God described in Rev. 21 & 22 with real dimensions, material, walls and gates. And they’ve come to (through faith, entered into relationship with) the church of the first born enrolled in heaven. IOW, they’re now a part of the church Christ has been building since Pentecost. What the writer of Hebrews is saying is that they, through faith in Jesus the Messiah, have entered into a place of eternal relationship with each of them; including the angelic host, God, the judge of all, and Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant in His blood.

Nowhere does the writer of Hebrews say that the church IS the heavenly Jerusalem. You need to read it more carefully.

Jesus resides in the tabernacles/temples of our souls.

Actually, the Man Christ Jesus resides bodily in heaven seated on the right hand of the Majesty on High (Heb. 1:3). The believer’s body is called “a temple of God,” but not the soul.1 Cor 3:16 "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and {that} the Spirit of God dwells in you?

1 Cor 6:19 "Or do you not know that your body is a temple* of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?"Can you show me where it’s stated in Scripture that Jesus resides in a man’s soul, or that the soul is called a temple?

The Kingdom of God is here (at hand). He is reigning in our hearts.

John the Baptist, Jesus and His disciples all preached that the Kingdom of heaven was “at hand” (Matt. 3:2; 3:17; 10:6-7) And they preached that message ONLY to Israel. However, after Matt. chapter 12 that message was not preached by them, nor was it the message Jesus gave to His disciples to take to the world after His bodily resurrection (Matt. 28:18-20). Israel’s King was rejected by that generation and the promised, Davidic, Messianic kingdom was withdrawn and postponed. There can be no Messianic kingdom without the King present. Instead He is presently building His church, calling it out from individual Jews and Gentiles, through the Holy Spirit, while sharing His Father’s throne in heaven.

How is His “kingdom” within us?

He wasn’t referring to the promised, Messianic Kingdom prophesied by the ancient Hebrew prophets in the O.T., and which is yet to come.

You like to take Scripture in a literal manner when it suits your own doctrinal interpretations, yet you refuse to see this passage as literal when it really is literal: John 6:49-58

Jesus literally stated that the words He spoke to them were not literal but spiritual:John 6:62-63 “{What} then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.”

I believe it! Literally!

Yes you do. And you join the ranks of those who erred at that time by thinking He was speaking literally. You, like them, completely miss the crucial point He was making in respect to He being the source of eternal life through the giving of His body as a sin sacrifice, received only through faith in Him (Jn. 6:47-51). Hence, rather than believe and receive His life, you continue to work for that which can be given (gifted) only “by grace through faith.”*

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

Yes HIS WORK OH MY GOSH DID CHRIST DO A WORK? on no Christ did a work He is evil just like the catholics…

The work He accomplished on the cross, once for all, you Catholics cannot do. He incarnated to do this work, it was HIS work, and HIS alone. Scripture reveals that His finished work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation is appropriated to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him.

Christ did His job now we have to do ours…what do you think carrying a cross is a walk in park?

It is not. But denying one’s self, taking up his cross and following Him is for the purpose discipleship, not salvation. Salvation, it is clearly revealed, is through FAITH in what HE DID, once for all.