J
johnpaul87
Guest
hey odell, yo still havent broken a commandment? good for you
- Status
J
johnpaul87
Guest
my friend moon, you dont understant what you are posting.you are quoting random scripture and not having a train of thought
J
johnpaul87
Guest
hey odell, you got me. bowing befor a statue is ok? i was just kiddin
B
benedictus2
Guest
And according to Jesus in the above verse, what are the consequences of not bearing fruit?
What does it mean to be thrown out like a branch into a fire?
B
benedictus2
Guest
True. But James said you are not saved by faith alone. Or don’t you have that book in your Bible?
Your argument is based on a misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine of salvation and the deficient protestant theology of salvation.
Not quite true. Based on Ryan’s post those who remain are not damned because they bear fruit. And God is not asking you the impossible for you to bear fruit. He is saying remain in me, that’s what you need to bear fruit. He does not expect you to bear fruit on your own because that is an impossiblity.
Why would it be a pity when all it speaks of is justice. Bear fruit or else. Remeber the parable of talents. Look what happened to the one who hid his talents.
Yes, but the verse in question is NOT ABOUT THAT PIECE OF WOOD.
Although it could be said that yes it is, the wood if you could call it that is the vine, the wood of salvation is the wood of the vine to which we must remain if we want to be saved.
You can even link it to “carry your cross and follow Me”. To abide by what you call this “saving wood” is to pick up your cross, your own wood for by doing that that you are remaining in the wood that is Christ’s cross.
Drat. that sounds like works again
Depends on how you define belief. Muslims believe in Christ. Some Hindus believe in Christ. Heck, even the devil believes in Christ.
M
moondweller
Guest
According to the allegory, permanently cease to bear fruit - but salvation isn’t based on bearing fruit but believing in Christ - His Person and work.John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."What does it mean to “believe?”
You see, Bene, it’s possible to do lots of “works” but never truly believe and therefore never enter salvation and, therefore, never bear fruit.
R
ryanoneil
Guest
I agree with all the scripture you’ve posted. Chirst alone saves us, but he also judges us according to how we responded to God’s grace during our lives. Belief isn’t simply a mental exercise.
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)
**who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. (Rom 2:6-10)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:10)
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)**
."
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mat 10:22)
**who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. (Rom 2:6-10)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:10)
Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows, because the one who sows for his flesh will reap corruption from the flesh, but the one who sows for the spirit will reap eternal life from the spirit. Let us not grow tired of doing good, for in due time we shall reap our harvest, if we do not give up. (Gal 6:7-9)**
M
moondweller
Guest
He says “show me your faith.” Justification is based on a faith that’s demonstrable, but faith nonetheless. You interpret James out of context.
Actually, it’s based on the gospel of grace found in the Scriptures.
Where in the allegory is the word damnation used?
This is the Catholic “gospel.” According to the Scriptures, if men were saved according to divine “justice” toward them, none would be saved. But according to the Scriptures God’s justice was served at the propitiatory cross of Christ and men are now saved by GRACE through FAITH in Christ alone.
That’s why it’s not about salvation.
The passage states nothing about being “saved.” It’s about depending on Christ (the Vine) to bear fruit. You, however, interpret bearing fruit with salvation because you believe salvation is through fruit bearing - works.
In respect to salvation, “your cross” is the wrong cross.
That’s right.Drat. that sounds like works again
Muslims? No they don’t. Hindus? No they don’t. The devil? No. Wrong definition of “belief.” If they’re you’re examples of belief, then you have no idea what it means to “believe in Him.” Where does that leave you?
R
ryanoneil
Guest
What you say is true, but scripture continues.
John 5:25
Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26
For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
27
And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
28
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29
and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
M
moondweller
Guest
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”
Those who are His handiwork, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works that they should walk in them, are those in vss. 8-9 that are have been saved by grace through faith…not as a results of works. IOW, they’ve “been saved” and are now created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, but not BY them.
Being newly created “in Christ Jesus” is an act of God for the believer, not based on the acts of men:1 Cor 1:30-31 "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
M
moondweller
Guest
But only those who actually believe in Him could do the “good deeds.” But it’s not the “good deeds” that is the cause of their resurrection unto life. Jesus said:John 11:25-26 “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.”
R
ryanoneil
Guest
I agree Jesus is the cause and not the good deeds (even though unbelievers can do good deeds - Luke 11:11-13).
So, how does one “actually” believe?
M
moondweller
Guest
It’s not “how” one believes but “that” and “what” one believes concerning Christ that matters.1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son (not deeds/works/fruit). He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
You are exactly right. Of course, he was speaking to those who were already His through belief in Him.
He wasn’t speaking about how to come to believe in him, or to become one of His branches, but He was speaking about the consequences of believing in Him. Which directly addresses the original question, What does it mean to abide in Christ?
M
moondweller
Guest
By “listening” (you can have ears but still not hear, Matt. 13:13) to the message of truth, the gospel of salvation:Eph 1:13 “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,”
M
moondweller
Guest
I addressed this here.
M
mackbrislawn
Guest
There’s not too much wrong with that post, as far as it goes. I agree, although I don’t know if we mean the same things by the same words. Often, we shoot past one another because of things like that.
Certainly, once a child of God, always a child of God.
R
ryanoneil
Guest
I don’t disagree, but we are talking about “abiding” in Christ.
Luke 8:11
"This is the meaning of the parable. The seed is the word of God.
12
Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved.
13
Those on rocky ground are the ones who, when they hear, receive the word with joy, but they have no root; they believe only for a time and fall away in time of trial.
14
As for the seed that fell among thorns, they are the ones who have heard, but as they go along, they are choked by the anxieties and riches and pleasures of life, and they fail to produce mature fruit.
15
But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit through perseverance.
O
Odell
Guest
S
SHW
Guest
We become adopted children of God when we are baptized since baptism applies the merits of Jesus’ sacrifice to our souls and this baptism redeems (sanctifies) us.
Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”
**
Baptism** is necessary along with belief. They are not separated. If you believe, then you are baptized. If you do not receive baptism, then you do not really believe.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Acts 22:16 “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
This is describing baptism. Baptism redeems us from our sins. Baptism washes away our sins. We are made holy by baptism. We become adopted children of God when we are baprized.
Galatians 4:4-6 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
We become “sons of God” through baptism. We become worthy to inherit eternal life. Praise be to God!
Ephesians 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.”
Titus 3:4-6 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,”
The waters of baptism along with the words of baptism redeem us and the Holy Spirit now dwells within us in our souls. But this is not the end of the story.
If we sin after we become adopted children of God, then we become “sons of disobedience” and we lose our inheritance.
Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”
If you become a “son of disobedience” then you receive the wrath of God instead of your inheritance.
Colossians 3:5-7 "Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
If we walk the walk of those sons who are in disobedience, then we reap the wrath of God, just as they do. No exceptions.
Luke 21:34-36 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
We must remain worthy of our inheritance or we will become disinherited. If disinherited, we are still sons, but disinherited sons. As disinherited sons, we do not inherit eternal life; we receive the wrath of God instead.
SHW
- Status