What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[moondweller]

But many Jews clearly came to believe that “law” requires payment.

No, they believed that works of law would justify them before God. Paul counteracts this false notion withRom 3:20 “…because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin” (not forgiveness of sins).

Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Rom 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."Paul clearly presents to his readers (the church at Rome, incidentally/ironically) that divine justification is based on the principle of faith alone. In the verses above (20 and 28) there is no definite article before the word “law,” So Paul is not narrowing his argument to the Law of Moses but the whole principle of “law” keeping itself. He nixes the idea of justification as a result of one’s performance in commandment keeping altogether. The example being Abraham who was justified before God at the time of belief in Him (Gen. 15:6), before any so-called “faith works” were performed by him. Long before his willingness to offer up Isaac for sacrifice. Also, Abraham lived 430 years before the Law of Moses came into existence. He wasn’t under “the Law,” his justification was based on faith alone.

His willingness to offer up his only son was a demonstration of his faith in the Lord by which the Lord justified him. If you read James carefully, you’ll see this is also the context of James. He desired his readers to demonstrate the faith by which God had justified them. Such demonstrations of faith are volitional.

Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and good works” act together.

Scripture doesn’t teach that justification is “achieved” at all. It clearly reveals that justification is Divinely “reckoned/credited” based on faith alone (Rom. 3:26, 27, 28, 30; 4:5). Paul sums it up nicely:Rom 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through law (no definite article, hence, the principle of law , i.e., works through commandment keeping), but through the righteousness of faith."Also that justification is gifted to the believer, based on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (the cross):Rom 3:23-24 "…for all sinned (i.e., in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"IOW, God justifies, giftwise (gratuitously, Gr. dorean: without cause) through Christ’s redemptive work alone. For this reason it is “through faith.”

Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith.

Honestly, Ryan, he’s not emphasizing works for justification at all.

Paul accepts the works performed under God’s grace which lead to justification and eternal life.

Oh Ryan:Rom 3:27 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in (Gal 6:2), not “works of the law.”

Yes, it’s the “saved by grace through faith” that are to “bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.” But the “law of Christ” justifies no one. It’s the “justified through faith in Christ” that are to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing on another’s burdens. The “saved by grace through faith” are exhorted to love the brethren.

Scripture doesn’t say God justifies by faith alone. Faith and good works must be together.

Good works may demonstrate the faith through which God justified the ungodly (Rom. 4:5), but God “reckons righteousness to the ungoldy apart from works” (Rom. 4:6).

 

[ryanoneil]

Then I must conclude that in order for me to join in communion with your faith community, I must believe that Christ is a failure, and powerless to save.

Would you believe the same thing about the Father? He wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth after all.

Or maybe you believe everyone will be saved.

This from a man who consistently proclaimed his salvation as fact, and who declared that his citizenship is in heaven, from which he also eagerly waits for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

And here he boldly proclaims that he could lose it.

 

[moondweller]

That doesn’t change the fact that he lost his salvation. Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, but he didn’t stay with Jesus. Part of God’s will was giving us a free will.

Oh Ryan, I’m always amazed to what lengths people will go to try to prove their own doctrines. Jesus Himself called Judas “the son of perdition” and “a devil” (Jn. 6:70; 17:2). And if you read John chapters 13-17, which includes Christ prayer to the Father for those who are His (including those who believe in Him through their word, 17:20), Judas was conspicuously absent (see Jn. 13:26-30). He may have been previously among them but, in the end, he was never included with them. To ascribe salvation to such a man is pure fatuity, indeed. He didn’t want redemption from sins, but from Rome. When he knew Jesus wasn’t going to deliver, he delivered Him over.

Those who assign salvation to Judas, IMO, have no idea what Divine salvation is.

 

[SHW]

Oh Ryan, I’m always amazed to what lengths people will go to try to prove their own doctrines. Jesus Himself called Judas “the son of perdition” and “a devil” (Jn. 6:70; 17:2). And if you read John chapters 13-17, which includes Christ prayer to the Father for those who are His (including those who believe in Him through their word, 17:20), Judas was conspicuously absent (see Jn. 13:26-30). He may have been previously among them but, in the end, he was never included with them. To ascribe salvation to such a man is pure fatuity, indeed. He didn’t want redemption from sins, but from Rome. When he knew Jesus wasn’t going to deliver, he delivered Him over.

Those who assign salvation to Judas, IMO, have no idea what Divine salvation is.

**Jesus also called Peter “Satan” ** yet He gave him alone the “keys to the kingdom” even before he betrayed him, because Christ is omniscient and He knew that Peter would repent of his betrayal and serve Him thereafter with a contrite heart. Peter had salvation; then he betrayed Jesus by denying Him (2 Timothy 2:12) and so he lost his salvation. Then he confessed and repented of his sin of betrayal and so he regained his salvation. Judas could have reconciled with God just as Peter did and then he would have been saved also. But he chose to despair and hang himself instead. It was his free will choice to do so. Jesus wanted him to be saved since He desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4) but He did not prevent Judas from condemning himself by his own despair and suicide. Jesus, because of His omniscience, did know that Judas would betray Him.

Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

What do you not understand about the following Scripture passages which pertain to salvation?

Matthew 19:16-17 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. **But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
**
Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

1 John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

1 John 3:6 “Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Revelation 21:7-8 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

1 Corinthians 4:1-5 “Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Hebrews 10:36 “For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:”

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.”

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Until we are proven “worthy” at the time of our deaths, we only have hope of eternal life; we have no guarantee.

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

You misinterpret the Scriptures in order to fit your “eternal security” doctrine. Our faith has to be genuine (living) faith (faith working through love - Galatians 5:6); we must still be “found faithful” at our deaths in order to inherit eternal life.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

No, they believed that works of law would justify them before God.

That is what I said.

Rom 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.”[/indent]Paul clearly presents to his readers (the church at Rome, incidentally/ironically) that divine justification is based on the principle of faith alone.

Again it comes down to law and grace. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification.

eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works (Rom 2:7)

**For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

Be doers of the word and not hearers only, deluding yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his own face in a mirror. He sees himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. But the one who peers into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres, and is not a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, such a one shall be blessed in what he does. (James 1:22-25)**

The example being Abraham who was justified before God at the time of belief in Him (Gen. 15:6), before any so-called “faith works” were performed by him. Long before his willingness to offer up Isaac for sacrifice. Also, Abraham lived 430 years before the Law of Moses came into existence. He wasn’t under “the Law,” his justification was based on faith alone.

Again law vs. grace

His willingness to offer up his only son was a demonstration of his faith in the Lord by which the Lord justified him. If you read James carefully, you’ll see this is also the context of James. He desired his readers to demonstrate the faith by which God had justified them. Such demonstrations of faith are volitional.

I thought you said faith alone. Even though he was justified in Genesis 15, God still required him to sacrifice his son (a “work”) which justified him in Genesis 22. Thus, James says that Abraham was justified by his works. Faith is the root and beginning of his justification (Gen 15), not the end.

Ryan, he’s not emphasizing works for justification at all.Oh Ryan:Rom 3:27"Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

“Boasting” does not attribute works to God, but to oneself. But good works done in faith are necessary for justification (James 2:24) because we receive rewards by grace, not by legal obligation, and we attribute these works to God, not ourselves.

For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)

Yes, it’s the “saved by grace through faith” that are to “bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.” But the “law of Christ” justifies no one. It’s the “justified through faith in Christ” that are to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing on another’s burdens. The “saved by grace through faith” are exhorted to love the brethren.Good works may demonstrate the faith through which God justified the ungodly (Rom. 4:5), but God “reckons righteousness to the ungoldy apart from works” (Rom. 4:6).

Neither our faith nor our works can please God outside of grace. The key distinction is law versus grace. We are saved by God’s grace through faith and works, and not faith alone.

**Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles (Rom 1:5)

but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26)

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:6)

And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us. (1 John 3:23-24)**

 

[ryanoneil]

Oh Ryan, I’m always amazed to what lengths people will go to try to prove their own doctrines. Jesus Himself called Judas “the son of perdition” and “a devil” (Jn. 6:70; 17:2). And if you read John chapters 13-17, which includes Christ prayer to the Father for those who are His (including those who believe in Him through their word, 17:20), Judas was conspicuously absent (see Jn. 13:26-30). He may have been previously among them but, in the end, he was never included with them. To ascribe salvation to such a man is pure fatuity, indeed. He didn’t want redemption from sins, but from Rome. When he knew Jesus wasn’t going to deliver, he delivered Him over.

Those who assign salvation to Judas, IMO, have no idea what Divine salvation is.

And the devil was previously in Heaven with God until he fell from grace.

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

Would you believe the same thing about the Father?

But Ryan, I believe that God is the perfect, and only savior who is able to save His people to the uttermost (cf Mt 1:21; Heb 7:25). That’s God’s revelation of Himself.

ISTM, your reason for citing 1 Tim 2 is, you believe God wills all to be saved, but He hasn’t the ability to see it through.

 

[Howie01]

**There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves. **(2 Peter 2:1)

**2 Pet 2:1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9[there] will also be false teachers among you secretly introducing destructive heresies…denying the Master who bought them…because of them the way of the truth will be maligned…they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

…and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction…and if He rescued righteous Lot…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and [the Lord knows how] to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment…**I think further comment is unnecessary.

 

[jemfinch]

No you didn’t; if memory serves me, the word “inheritance” appears no where in that epistle, let alone in the verse you’ve cited.

It does in the argument I provided with it.

When one reads the verse in context, the truth becomes clear—those spoken of are described as "false teachers…who exploit with false words."

Even if the passage were limited to those false teachers, it wouldn’t help your argument.

What is a false teacher, if not false—in everything spiritual?

Many false teachers may be genuine Christians who teach falsehood. You would be one such teacher, if we’re right.

I offered a passage in which Christ states the will of the Father regarding those who are not false in their teachings, nor in their professions.

I don’t see how the passage at all relates to this discussion, perhaps you can flesh out your argument.

The will of the Father for Christ concerning those who do not teach and profess falsely

I didn’t see “those who do not teach and profess falsely” in the passage you quoted. What translation does this phrase appear in?

that Christ lose none, and that He raise them up on the last day.

Jesus says He will do that.

You’re affirming the consequent. Just because Christ will lose none of those given to him by God does not mean that there are people who weren’t given to Christ by God, but who begin the process of salvation without completing it.

Therefore, those false teaches…who exploit with false words, spoken of by Peter in his epistle, were never given by the Father, to the Son for safekeeping, and they never believed in the Son—at least, not to the obtaining of eternal life.

Except they were, as the passage clearly shows. Peter says “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them” These false teachers were redeemed, bought by Christ: they began the process of salvation, but they clearly did not complete it.

Furthermore, the passage isn’t limited to those false teachers. Peter speaks at length about these false teachers, bought by Christ, who see swift destruction. He likens them to “waterless springs and mists driven by a storm.” In verse 18, however we see the introduction of a second group: “For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption.” This second group of people, “those who are barely escaping from those who live in error,” are rather clearly the subject of 2 Peter 2:20’s “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.” Libertine false teachers and their false doctrines manage to convince people who barely defeat sin to return to their sins, and that last state is worse than the first.

If they did so believe, then by their loss, Christ failed.

There are any number of reasons why your interpretation of that passage is wrong: the continual present tense of “believe,” the fact that some people may initially believe but aren’t elect, etc.

The fact is, you’ve failed utterly to answer the passage I provided. The people are described as having “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” but you say they never believed. How did such knowledge help them escape the defilements of the world, then? What power is there in unbelieving assent to propositional knowledge of Christ?

Jeremy

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Jesus also called Peter “Satan”

You really can’t see that He was talking past Peter??? That, however, was not the case with Judas.

Until we are proven “worthy” at the time of our deaths, we only have hope of eternal life; we have no guarantee.

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."Jesus Himself disagrees with you. As does Paul (Rom. 6:23) and John (1 Jn. 5:11-13).

Now, what’s this about three witnesses?

 

[moondweller]

Ryanoneil:

Again it comes down to law and grace.

No, it’s law and works vs. grace and faith. If you could grasp this basic truth you might start to understand Pauline theology. But of course that doesn’t guarantee you’ll believe it.

In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification.

This is true in Catholic theology. Catholics are always trying to “obtain” justification by works. But not so with Pauline theology:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"According to Pauline theology (inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself: theopneustos) justification is gifted by His grace based solely on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). In case you can’t grasp that, he means the redemptive work accomplished and finished by Christ on the cross. The ONLY work by which God freely justifies anyone, through faith. For this reason it is said to be by His GRACE:Rom 3:24 “…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

And the devil was previously in Heaven with God until he fell from grace.

Can you show me where it’s stated that the devil “fell from grace?” Paul applies that phrase to those Galatians who turned away from the gospel of God’s grace through the Person and work of Jesus Christ to one of works. He called it a distortion of the gospel of Christ. Falling from grace has nothing to do with Satan. Divine grace has nothing to do with Satan.

And if you’d read the Book of Job, you’ll see Satan still has access to heaven. His day for getting kicked out is yet future.

 

[SHW]

You really can’t see that He was talking past Peter? John 3:14 “so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.” Jesus Himself disagrees with you. As does Paul (Rom. 6:23) and John (1 Jn. 5:11-13).

Jesus was not “talking past Peter.”

Jesus clearly states that He rebuked Peter and calls him Satan.

Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Navarre Bible Commentary: The dialogue with Peter (8:31-33) provides an image of the paradox of Christianity: Peter finds it hard to see how Jesus’ victory could possibly involve the cross: Jesus publicly rebukes him because this human way of looking at things is at odds with God’s plan.

John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”

If you believe the gospel, then you also must obey the gospel. Belief and obedience cannot be separated.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 “And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

If you sin, then you have had pleasure in unrighteousness and you therefore do not believe the truth and you are not saved.

Hebrews 10:39 “But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

If you are saved, but sin afterwards, then you have drawn back to perdition and you are no longer saved.

Those who truly believe in Him obey Him. Belief without obedience is not true faith and false faith (faith without obedience to God’s commandments) will not save you.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

You do not believe in God unless you also do the will of Jesus’ Father in heaven.

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Luke 8:13 “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.”

If you do not continue to obey God’s commandments when you are tempted, then you fall away and you are no longer saved.

Rom. 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life** in Christ** Jesus our Lord.”

We are not “in Christ” unless we keep His commandments. If we sin, then we receive the wages of sin which is death of our souls (damnation).

1 John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

John 15:10 “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

If we do not keep God’s commandments, then we are not “in Christ” and therefore we do not abide in Christ and He does not abide in us. We must “abide in Christ” in order to have eternal life. We “abide in Christ” by obeying His commandments. We must continue to believe (continue to abide in Christ) until death in order to be saved .

1 Jn. 5:11-13 “And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not **have the Son of God **does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”

How do we “have the Son of God?”

1 John 2:28 “And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.”

1 John 3:17 “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?”

2 John 1:9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”

If we sin, then we do not abide in Christ’s doctrine and we do not have God, and we will not be saved.

You really do need to “get this” truth about salvation: Jesus did not come to earth to die for us so that we can disobey His commandments without consequences.

Romans 2:5-9 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;”

Jesus, Paul, and John agree with me.

SHW

 

[moondweller]

Jesus was not “talking past Peter.”

Jesus clearly states that He rebuked Peter and calls him Satan.

So then when Jesus says:John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and {yet} one of you is a devil?"the “one” He was referring to was Peter? Or maybe you think Jesus was mistaken and didn’t know that there were actually two of them?

Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

Navarre Bible Commentary: The dialogue with Peter (8:31-33) provides an image of the paradox of Christianity: Peter finds it hard to see how Jesus’ victory could possibly involve the cross: Jesus publicly rebukes him because this human way of looking at things is at odds with God’s plan.

Yes, you yourself might contemplate the paradox of Christianity involving the death of Christ on the cross and eternal life. Meditate for a while on your own quote:John 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”

If you believe the gospel, then you also must obey the gospel. Belief and obedience cannot be separated.

“Lord, who has BELIEVED our report?” To “obey” is to believe. A “report” is to be believed. The gospel is a Divine report concerning the Person and sacrificial work of the incarnate Son, not an assignment of tasks to be completed by the end of one’s life.John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”“Believes” is pisteuôn, “obey” is apeithôn. They latter means disbelief. To disobey the Son means to disbelieve the “report” which is the “testimony of God” concerning His Son and eternal life:1 John 5:9 If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 “And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

If you sin, then you have had pleasure in unrighteousness and you therefore do not believe the truth and you are not saved.

They’re condemned because they “did not BELIEVE the truth.”

Hebrews 10:39

“But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

If you are saved, but sin afterwards, then you have drawn back to perdition and you are no longer saved.Those who BELIEVE to the saving (preserving) of the soul are NOT drawn back to destruction.

Those who truly believe in Him obey Him. Belief without obedience is not true faith and false faith (faith without obedience to God’s commandments) will not save you.

You do not believe in God unless you also do the will of Jesus’ Father in heaven.

If you do not continue to obey God’s commandments when you are tempted, then you fall away and you are no longer saved.

We are not “in Christ” unless we keep His commandments. If we sin, then we receive the wages of sin which is death of our souls (damnation).

If we do not keep God’s commandments, then we are not “in Christ” and therefore we do not abide in Christ and He does not abide in us. We must “abide in Christ” in order to have eternal life. We “abide in Christ” by obeying His commandments. We must continue to believe (continue to abide in Christ) until death in order to be saved .

If we sin, then we do not abide in Christ’s doctrine and we do not have God, and we will not be saved.

You really do need to “get this” truth about salvation: Jesus did not come to earth to die for us so that we can disobey His commandments without consequences.

YOUR report is all about law (commandment keeping) or eternal damnation. To you, Jesus came to this earth to reassert the Law. But Paul writes:Gal 3:22-24 “But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.”

 

[ryanoneil]

But Ryan, I believe that God is the perfect, and only savior who is able to save His people to the uttermost (cf Mt 1:21; Heb 7:25). That’s God’s revelation of Himself.

ISTM, your reason for citing 1 Tim 2 is, you believe God wills all to be saved, but He hasn’t the ability to see it through.

Then you have the wrong idea about me. Nothing is impossible with God.

Will you please stop putting words in my mouth and telling me what I believe, and just answer for yourself.

 

[ryanoneil]

2 Pet 2:1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 9[there] will also be false teachers among you secretly introducing destructive heresies…denying the Master who bought them…because of them the way of the truth will be maligned…they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

…and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction…and if He rescued righteous Lot…then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and [the Lord knows how] to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment…I think further comment is unnecessary.

You are avoiding the plain text. Verse one clearly states that some who have been ransomed will become heretics and bring destruction on themselves. And

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

These are saved people losing their salvation.

 

[ryanoneil]

No, it’s law and works vs. grace and faith. If you could grasp this basic truth you might start to understand Pauline theology. But of course that doesn’t guarantee you’ll believe it.

This is true in Catholic theology. Catholics are always trying to “obtain” justification by works. But not so with Pauline theology:Rom 3:27-28 "Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.

Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"According to Pauline theology (inspired by the Holy Spirit Himself: theopneustos) justification is gifted by His grace based solely on the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:24). In case you can’t grasp that, he means the redemptive work accomplished and finished by Christ on the cross. The ONLY work by which God freely justifies anyone, through faith. For this reason it is said to be by His GRACE:Rom 3:24 “…being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

We don’t disagree that it is grace, but Pauline theology is inconsistent with James 2 in your explaination of it (and we know the Word of God cannot contradict itself). James 2 has to be “good work” and not “works of the Mosaic law”. The only way it makes sense is the “Mosaic law” and “works of the law” vs. “grace” and “faith + good works.”

If you disagree, what is this saying?

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Can you show me where it’s stated that the devil “fell from grace?” Paul applies that phrase to those Galatians who turned away from the gospel of God’s grace through the Person and work of Jesus Christ to one of works. He called it a distortion of the gospel of Christ. Falling from grace has nothing to do with Satan. Divine grace has nothing to do with Satan.

And if you’d read the Book of Job, you’ll see Satan still has access to heaven. His day for getting kicked out is yet future.

The book of Job was written before Christ’s first advent. These aren’t the exact words but the message is the same. Jesus wouldn’t have characterized the mission of the seventy-two as a symbolic fall of Satan unless there was truth to it.
Jesus said, "I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky. (Luke 10:18)

 

[Howie01]

jemfinch:

It does in the argument I provided with it.

But, it appears nowhere in the epistle.

jemfinch:

Even if the passage were limited to those false teachers, it wouldn’t help your argument.

I agree; it would cement the argument.

jemfinch:

Many false teachers may be genuine Christians who teach falsehood. You would be one such teacher, if we’re right.

A charitable ad hominem. Well, what are Catholics, if not charitable, eh?

jemfinch:

I don’t see how the passage at all relates to this discussion, perhaps you can flesh out your argument.

I’ve got enough without it.

jemfinch:

I didn’t see “those who do not teach and profess falsely” in the passage you quoted. What translation does this phrase appear in?

It doesn’t; they’re my words in contrast to Peter’s words.

jemfinch:

You’re affirming the consequent. Just because Christ will lose none of those given to him by God does not mean that there are people who weren’t given to Christ by God, but who begin the process of salvation without completing it.

That’s why I couldn’t never be in communion with your church—she’s taught you that Jesus fails to do the will of the Father, as His will is stated in that passage.

jemfinch:

Except they were, as the passage clearly shows. Peter says “there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them” These false teachers were redeemed, bought by Christ: they began the process of salvation, but they clearly did not complete it.

Your understanding of the phrase, “the Master who bought them,” cannot be right in light of Jesus statements in Jn 6, and your understanding makes Jesus out to be both a failure, and a liar.

jemfinch:

Furthermore, the passage isn’t limited to those false teachers. Peter speaks at length about these false teachers, bought by Christ, who see swift destruction.

Again, I think the problem lies your understanding, or rather, misunderstanding of the statement, “the Master who bought them.” There’s an action on their part that precedes the statement—they’re denying Him, (present participle—continously denying him, with no indication they’ve ever done anything but deny Him).

jemfinch:

This second group of people, “those who are barely escaping from those who live in error,” are rather clearly the subject of 2 Peter 2:20’s “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.” Libertine false teachers and their false doctrines manage to convince people who barely defeat sin to return to their sins, and that last state is worse than the first.

First, “barely escaping,” is a participle—they were in the act of escaping, in the act of conversion, but never fully committed, they never fully converted.

Second, the Lord states, punishment in hell is commensurate with knowledge. The more you know, the more severe the punishment (Lk 12).

Third, Peter states earlier in the chapter, “…the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for judgment.” The Lord recognizes those who are not His, and He recognizes those who are His, and He loses none of His own (2 Pet 2:9; 1 Pet 1:5; Jude 24; Jn 6:39ff).

Fourth, saved saints are never referred to as “unrighteous,” by any writer. In the right understanding of the Gospel, the Lord is a real, true savior who “saves His people,” those given Him by the Father, and He loses none of them.

You see, the professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith; eventually, his true colors will show (Mt 13:20-22). And thus, like the dog and sow that he is, he eventually returns to his own vomit, and to wallowing in the mire. He was never changed.

jemfinch:

There are any number of reasons why your interpretation of that passage is wrong: the continual present tense of “believe,” the fact that some people may initially believe but aren’t elect, etc.

The word “believe” appears nowhere in the epistle.

jemfinch:

The fact is, you’ve failed utterly to answer the passage I provided.

I think I’ve done quite well.

jemfinch:

The people are described as having “escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” but you say they never believed. How did such knowledge help them escape the defilements of the world, then? What power is there in unbelieving assent to propositional knowledge of Christ?

If an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by being in proximity to his/her believing spouse, how much more is the unbeliever sanctified by being in proximity to an assembly of believers (1 Cor 7:14)?

 

[jemfinch]

But, it appears nowhere in the epistle.

Neither do a great many of your beliefs.

I agree; it would cement the argument.

Don’t feign rhetorical agreement. It’s dishonest.

A charitable ad hominem. Well, what are Catholics, if not charitable, eh?

You clearly don’t know what ad hominem actually is.

I’ve got enough without it.

Can’t have been an important argument, then. Maybe you can spare us the unimportant ones next time.

It doesn’t; they’re my words in contrast to Peter’s words.

Then by your own principle of rejecting any argument whose words do not appear in the actual text of the Bible, I reject your argument.

That’s why I couldn’t never be in communion with your church—she’s taught you that Jesus fails to do the will of the Father, as His will is stated in that passage.

The Church didn’t teach me that, the Bible did. I’ve recognized that genuine Christians can give up their inheritance like Esau did, they can make a shipwreck of their faith like Hymenaeus and Alexander did, they can deny the master who bought them like the false teachers of 2 Peter 2 did since long before I joined the Catholic Church.

Your understanding of the phrase, “the Master who bought them,” cannot be right in light of Jesus statements in Jn 6, and your understanding makes Jesus out to be both a failure, and a liar.

No, your understanding of Christ’s statements in John 6 cannot be right in light of Peter’s statement in 2 Peter 2. We can go on like this all day long, Howie.

Again, I think the problem lies your understanding, or rather, misunderstanding of the statement, “the Master who bought them.”

On the contrary, the problem lies in your misunderstanding of that statement.

There’s an action on their part that precedes the statement—they’re denying Him, (present participle—continously denying him, with no indication they’ve ever done anything but deny Him).

The present participle denotes continuous action. It does not denote past action. You’re overreaching here.

First, “barely escaping,” is a participle—they were in the act of escaping, in the act of conversion, but never fully committed, they never fully converted.

Except some did, as Peter said later, they have escaped: a perfect tense indicating completed action. If there can be no one who has escaped and later loses his salvation, Peter’s warning is in vain.

Second, the Lord states, punishment in hell is commensurate with knowledge. The more you know, the more severe the punishment (Lk 12).

True, but again, Peter’s talking about those who have escaped: perfect tense, completed action. These people escaped the defilements of the world either by their own power (in which case you’re a Pelagian) or by God’s power (in which case they were saved). Which do you choose?

Third, Peter states earlier in the chapter, “…the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for judgment.” The Lord recognizes those who are not His, and He recognizes those who are His, and He loses none of His own (2 Pet 2:9; 1 Pet 1:5; Jude 24; Jn 6:39ff).

Fourth, saved saints are never referred to as “unrighteous,” by any writer. In the right understanding of the Gospel, the Lord is a real, true savior who “saves His people,” those given Him by the Father, and He loses none of them.

Neither of these points even begin to address the actual issue: that people who “have escaped” can fall back into sin and be in an even worse state than they were originally.

You see, the professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith; eventually, his true colors will show (Mt 13:20-22). And thus, like the dog and sow that he is, he eventually returns to his own vomit, and to wallowing in the mire. He was never changed.

Except he was. He escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of Christ. If that’s not a change, what is? If that’s not salvation, what is?

The word “believe” appears nowhere in the epistle.

I was referring to your quotation of John, obviously.

I think I’ve done quite well.

I’m sure you do.

If an unbelieving spouse is sanctified by being in proximity to his/her believing spouse, how much more is the unbeliever sanctified by being in proximity to an assembly of believers (1 Cor 7:14)?

Maybe you live in a different sort of community than I do, but I’m sure as heck a lot closer to my wife than to the people I go to Church with. This argument does not hold.

Jeremy

 

[SHW]

So then when Jesus says:John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and {yet} one of you is a devil?"the “one” He was referring to was Peter? Or maybe you think Jesus was mistaken and didn’t know that there were actually two of them?

Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

He rebuked Peter and called Peter “Satan.” How can you deny this very plain fact? You deny it because it does not fit your “eternal security” doctrine.

The common sense commentary of the Navarre Bible hits the bulls eye of truth.

You see, Moondweller, we are only condemned forever if we die in our sins. Jesus knew that Judas would die in his sins and be condemned because Jesus is God and He is omniscient. This is why Jesus called him a devil. Judas despaired and hanged himself. He died in his sins instead of cooperating with God’s mercy. He would have been saved if he had done like Peter (repented).

Jesus also knew that Peter would deny that he knew Him. This sin (denying Christ by our actions) causes damnation.

Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

Do you think that a person is still saved if Jesus denies this wicked person, who betrayed Him, before His Father? If you do, then you are sadly mistaken.

Instead of salvation, Jesus says He “never knew you.” In other words, He denies this person salvation who denies (betrays) Him. On Judgment Day Jesus sits with His Father and He will deny those who have denied Him by their actions.

Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

This is Scriptural proof that Jesus will deny persons who deny Him (practice lawlessness). Jesus states “I never knew you.” In other words, “I deny that I know you.”

Do you understand what “practicing” “lawlessness” means?

“Law” means commandment. “Practicing lawlessness” means “disobeying God’s laws (commandments).”

Jesus is omniscient. He knew that Peter would betray Him. He also knew that Peter would repent and become the “keeper of the keys of the kingdom of God.” This is why Jesus did not include Peter in his statement “One of you is a devil.”

Of course, Jesus also prayed for Peter because we cannot save ourselves by ourselves. We are dependent upon God’s mercy for repentance and salvation. When Peter realized what he had done, he wept bitterly and repented of his sin. From then on, he was zealous for the gospel and died a martyr as a result of his faith. He never denied Jesus again.

Luke 22:31-32 "And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.”

First Peter believed in Christ. Then Peter denied Christ by his own actions (works). Then Peter realized what he had done and was sorry for what he had done. He repented and returned to Christ. There is no such thing as “eternal security” while we are on earth. We can deny Christ by our actions at any time and thereby lose our “hope” of eternal life. However, we can repent and return to Christ and do works worthy of repentance and regain our “hope” of eternal life. While we are on earth, we only have “hope” of eternal life; not guarantee of eternal life. (Titus 3:7, 1 Thessalonians 5:7-10)

We must cooperate with God’s mercy in order to be saved. Peter cooperated with God’s mercy and he repented of his betrayal and he regained his justification.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Peter repented. Peter was saved/justified (again). Peter did works (bore fruits) worthy of repentance.

**Both men denied Christ. Only one of them repented and did works worthy of repentance. ** We can assume that only one of them was saved at their deaths since Judas did not take advantage of God’s mercy (he despaired and hanged himself) and Jesus calls only one of His Apostles the “devil.”

We are not judged until we die. Until then, after our baptisms, we can lose our justification and regain our justification. Final justification depends on whether we are obeying God’s commandments at the time of our deaths. If we are practicing lawlessness (disobeying God’s commandments) at the time of our deaths, then we are condemned to hell.

James 2:19-21 “You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?”

Believing in God is the first step. This “believing” must be accompanied by obedience. If it is not accompanied by obedience, then you are a “foolish” man because you will not be saved. Dead faith (faith without works) will not save you. Nothing “dead” can save.

1 Peter 1:17 “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear;”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

"Eternal Security" is a false doctrine.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end (of his life) will be saved (approved).”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

We must endure to the end of our lives in obedience to the gospel of Jesus in order to be saved. If we have endured to end of our lives “loving” Him (in obedience to God’s commandments), then we are approved for eternal life and we will receive the crown of life.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

2 John 1:4-6 "I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 5 And now I plead with you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment to you, but that which we have had from the beginning: that we love one another. 6 This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

Jesus states that obeying His commandments is loving Him. If we do not keep/obey His commandments, then we do not love Him. Jesus does not save people who do not love Him!

Bottom Line: If a person does not obey God’s commandments until they die, then they do not inherit eternal life. If a person breaks God’s commandments, then this person must repent before death, as did Peter, in order to regain his justification and to again have “hope” of inheriting eternal life. A person must be “found faithful” at their deaths in order to inherit eternal life. (1 Corinthians 4:1-5)

Eternal Security is a false doctrine.

SHW