What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

Regarding: Originally posted by SHW: “you believe that Jesus is able to save His people and said that Jesus saves His people "to the uttermost”

Originally Posted by Howie01 “I’m curious, do you think Jesus is able to do that? Is Jesus a real savior, or does Jesus only make salvation a possibility?”

Jesus redeems us and justifies us through Baptism. We are made His disciples (Christians) by Baptism:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.11And such were some of you.** But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God**.”

Romans 6:3-4 “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Since Jesus redeems us from Original Sin and also remits all of our personal sins through Baptism; we have been sanctified (made holy), and we are also justified (saved) at this point in time.

However, this does not mean that it is a “once and for all” justification/salvation. Jesus’ redemption and justification for us is only the beginning of our faith journey to eternal life. It gives us ”hope of eternal life,” not guarantee of eternal life. We have to continue to walk in God’s grace for our whole lives in order to inherit eternal life after our deaths (if we die shortly after our Baptisms before we commit sin then we would go immediately to heaven).

Titus 3:4-8 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.”

No one can say emphatically that they will not fall away from the faith after their initial redemption and justification.

If you fall away between your baptism and your death, by disobeying God’s commandments and/or failing to do good works, then you are no longer saved. To say that you are OSAS would be presumptuous and presumption is a sin. (Despair is the opposite extreme and that is also a sin.) We cannot judge ourselves for salvation.

1 Corinthians 4:2-4 “Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.”

The writers of the epistles are constantly warning us to remain faithful. We must remain faithful until death in order to inherit eternal life.

Jesus states that in order to inherit eternal life we must obey His commandments. There are no exceptions.

Matthew 19:17 “So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

1 Peter 1:3-9 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to** a living hope** through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7** that the genuineness of your faith**, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.”

Our faith must be found genuine at our deaths in order to inherit eternal life. If our faith is found genuine at our deaths, then we receive the end of our faith – the salvation of our souls. If we are not found faithful, then we do not inherit eternal life. We have hope of eternal life and it is kept for us by the power of God through our genuine faith. If our faith is not genuine, then God does not keep our inheritance for us. We become “sons of God” through Baptism and we must make sure that we do not become “sons of disobedience” through sins of commission and/or omission if we wish to inherit eternal life:

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

If we commit serious sin (mortal sin) after our redemption and justification through Baptism, then we lose our salvation. Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross no longer covers for us. When we sin mortal sins, then the Holy Spirit leaves our souls. We cannot be saved if the Holy Spirit is not living in our souls when we die.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”

The Holy Spirit moves into our souls when we are baptized. We are sanctified by Baptism and we have sanctifying grace in our souls because the Holy Spirit lives within (abides in) us. If we defile our temples (souls) through mortal sin, then the Holy Spirit moves out and no longer abides in us. If we do not repent before death, then God destroys us (wrath of God):

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

We are constantly warned by the writers of the gospels and epistles to be on guard so that we do not fall away from the faith and lose our inheritance:

1 Corinthians 4:2-4 “Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.”

No one can be positive that they will remain faithful to God’s commandments.

1 Peter 5:8-9 “Be sober, be vigilant; because** your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.** 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.”

1 Corinthians 5:9-11 “I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.”

1 Corinthians 15:33 "Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”

Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.”

We must understand “how” Satan attempts “to devour us” (to make us lose our salvation) in order for us to be on our guard against him. He likes to lead us to “slippery slopes” so that he can eventually trap us after we slide to the bottom.

For example: Divorce and/or adultery usually begins with lunch. A man and a woman meet for an innocent business lunch. Then another one. Then they become friends at these business lunches. Then they start talking about personal subjects. Then they think that this friend understands them better than their spouse. Then they eventually end up divorcing their spouses because they cannot live without each other. Their two families suffer from betrayal, etc. And it all began with an “innocent” lunch between two members of the opposite sex. Bottom Line: Never have lunch alone with a member of the opposite sex if either of you are married. This is what “avoiding a near occasion of sin” means.

We must be wise and vigilant in order to avoid these “near occasions of sin” (opportunities which can lead to sin).

We must continue steadfast in the faith in order to inherit eternal life when we die:

Acts 14:21-22 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Colossians 1:21-23 “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.”

If we continue in the faith until we die, the Holy Spirit will still be dwelling in our souls, and we will hear:

“Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.” Matthew 25:23

Pax,
SHW

 

[ncgolf]

Redemption comes through believing, not doing. Justification come through believing, not doing.

Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”

This verse is the Catholic position stated beautifully and succintly by Paul … marrying faith with the virture of hope (assurance). We don’t “see” salvation in this lifetime but we can expect what Jesus promises … our faith is in believing what Christ and all the Scriptures promise.

If we are to believe your theology there would be no need for the words “what is hoped for” it would have been sufficient to state this “Faith is the belief in evidence of things not seen.” … as has been stated before faith is never alone … for the Bible puts faith and works together, faith and love together and also faith and hope together.

Jesus said He came to save sinners and that is mercy is unlimited … so our faith rests in the assurance that Jesus will do what He promises and that by faith I can trust in Him.

You must reconcile your explicit guarantee of salvation with Hebrews 11:1.

So far, based on your reasoning, we must all offer up at least one of our children to sacrifice (maybe more, depends on how many times we need to be justified throughout our life time), and, like Rahab, hide some Jews from their enemies.

He does not say that but what is true that one must be ready to offer anything God requires of you.

The limits of what faith may require are staggering aren’t they?

Are you ready to offer anything God requires?

 

[moondweller]

Jesus said He came to save sinners and that is mercy is unlimited … so our faith rests in the assurance that Jesus will do what He promises and that by faith I can trust in Him.

So Jesus has not yet saved any sinners? How is it Paul writes:Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith;"AndEph 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace** you have been saved**),"AndTitus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"These passages aren’t written to people in “purgatory,” but those who have believed in Christ unto salvation in this life. IOW, saved.

You must reconcile your explicit guarantee of salvation with Hebrews 11:1.

Walking by faith is not hoping to be saved. It’s the saved: the redeemed, the born again, the reconciled, the justified, the forgiven, the regenerated, who walk by faith. The true believer knows he’s fully saved and walks by faith in the reality that all that his salvation is, and who he is, is yet to be revealed. Heb. 11:1 expresses the confidence true faith has in this Scripturally revealed truth. As Peter writes:1 Pet 1:-53 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."The saved walk by faith with confidence in the future revealing of what, and who, they are, even now, in Christ. Though a large portion of Christendom mocks them and tries to convince them that no one can know if they’re saved, branding them liars and apostates, still, they know in Whom they’ve believed and what God has revealed concerning the FACT of their salvation in Christ through the Scriptures. As John says:1 John 3:1-2 "See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is."This, my friend, is Heb. 11:1 in action - “the assurance of {things} hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

Are you ready to offer anything God requires?

Are you ready to offer to give up your works and, by faith, trust wholly in the finished work of Christ alone, and say in confidence of faith with Paul:Gal 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me?”

 

[Howie01]

Jesus redeems us and justifies us through Baptism. We are made His disciples (Christians) by Baptism:

Two things, the statement above is wrong, and I don’t read posts that consist of pages and pages of scripture used to mask the call to works-righteousness, and works salvation.

 

[moondweller]

hey all, ive been reading these threads.its obvious everyone is blind to the scriptures. if youre not saved, the scriptures are greek, you wont understand one lousy word.

I myself wonder about the one who calls the Word “lousy (vile, despicable).”

 

[Howie01]

Hebrews 11:1 "Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen."

This verse is the Catholic position stated beautifully and succintly by Paul…

Actually, I think it’s the misunderstanding of that verse that is the Catholic position.

If we go strictly on your translation, without the greek, what the verse states is not the Catholic position.

What the verse states is my position, and I’m certain, moondweller’s position.

In context, God tests our faith in the crucible—realization, and the faith described involves the most solid possible conviction, the God-given present assurance of a future reality—evidence of things not seen.

True faith is not based on empirical evidence, such as my works of sacrament keeping, works of charity, etc., but on divine assurance, and it is a gift of God (Eph 2:8).

To be sure, true faith is demonstrated by those works, but then again, pagans do those works as well.

You see, as I understand the Catholic position, if you were to claim the assurance described by the writer, you would be guilty of the sin of presumption.

ncgolf:

We don’t “see” salvation in this lifetime but we can expect what Jesus promises …

You can’t expect it in the true biblical sense of assured confidence; again, as I understand it, for the Catholic that’s the sin of presumption; therefore, the Catholic, if he’s consistent with church teaching, exists in a state of uncertainty, which uncertainty is only finally resolved at his death.

Remember, the apostle states he wrote what he did so that in believing that Christ is the Son of God, one may know he has eternal life—past, present, and future; I have that confidence because of my understanding of justification as one thing, and sanctification as another thing, and that is not the Catholic position; the Catholic position is that the two are the same.

ncgolf:

our faith is in believing what Christ and all the Scriptures promise.

Be careful; in what you say, you’re leaving Rome and leaning sola, IMO.

ncgolf:

Jesus said He came to save sinners and that is mercy is unlimited … so our faith rests in the assurance that Jesus will do what He promises and that by faith I can trust in Him.

Faith alone in Christ alone? Is that what you have?

 

[ncgolf]

True faith is not based on empirical evidence, such as my works of sacrament keeping, works of charity, etc., but on divine assurance, and it is a gift of God (Eph 2:8).

Not totally based but it is part of it because for Catholics the Sacramental life is part of Jesus’s gift to his Church. You may not agree with it but I cannot deny it either.

To be sure, true faith is demonstrated by those works, but then again, pagans do those works as well.

And the truly faithful sin thus tearing and damaging his people on earth … the same as the pagans … so where does that leave us.

Good works are good works … I will let God sort out one’s destiny.

You see, as I understand the Catholic position, if you were to claim the assurance described by the writer, you would be guilty of the sin of presumption.

It is an assurance, a confidence the writer speaks of … not the guarantee your man made theology has defined so according to our interpretation of Paul it is by no mean’s presumptous. Your theology discounts the virture of hope while the Catholic theology of salvation does not … faith and hope go hand in hand, in fact Catholics live in “blessed hope”.

I find your theology on this one is guilty of presumption.

You can’t expect it in the true biblical sense of assured confidence; again, as I understand it, for the Catholic that’s the sin of presumption; therefore, the Catholic, if he’s consistent with church teaching, exists in a state of uncertainty, which uncertainty is only finally resolved at his death.

Uncertainty only in our complete knowledge of God’s plan but when one is “in Christ” as Paul puts it one can be reasonably assured. When one is honest with themselves, truly honest, one can know his shortcomings and with the grace of God continue on the path of sanitification … becoming more like Christ … not less.

Remember, the apostle states he wrote what he did so that in believing that Christ is the Son of God, one may know he has eternal life—past, present, and future; I have that confidence because of my understanding of justification as one thing, and sanctification as another thing, and that is not the Catholic position; the Catholic position is that the two are the same.

I will quote a piece of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the interplay between justification and sanctification.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

44 Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16.
45 Rom 6:19,22.

Be careful; in what you say, you’re leaving Rome and leaning sola, IMO.

No … I don’t believe in faith alone but I don’t disagree with a lot of the theology … only in the reformer’s conclusions.

Faith alone in Christ alone? Is that what you have?

What is the real question here … what Person other than Christ does one have faith … be careful on how you answer this. This question really explains the differences between reformers and Catholics as it contains in it how we view Christ differently.

Does the Catholic Church teach to have faith in something else?

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan, what does Jesus mean where He states:John 3:14-15 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."What does He mean by this and on what grounds can He guarantee eternal life?

God promised to save everyone who looked to the bronze serpent in search of his mercy. Jesus sees this as an image of his own Crucifixion and the healing it will bring.

The redeemed are to be doers of the Word, that’s true, but in order to be redeemed one must first believe the Word (testimony) of God concerning His Son. Redemption comes through believing, not doing. Justification come through believing, not doing:

Yes, the other key word is first. Belief comes first and it is a gift from God. But it isn’t a one shot deal though, and it cannot remain isolated.

James states nothing about perfecting and completing justification by works, but rather:James 2:22 "You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;Abraham’s faith in the Lord matured through the works. But he was justified only once. Justification needs no maturity. Justification is the imputation of Divine righteousness.

Justification is not imputed. God infuses His grace into souls and changes the inner person.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me. (Mat 5:3-11)

The poor in spirit, the meek, and the pure of heart are internal dispositions, not just an external reality. Those who hunger for righteousness “may be filled.” It is an inner change, not and imputation.

**Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:19-20)

Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly. (Luke 1:6)

Then Peter proceeded to speak and said, "In truth, I see that God shows no partiality. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him. (Acts 10:34-35)**

Here are examples of “doing” righteousness, not just being “imputed” external righteousness. We are not just defendants in a courtroom who have been exonerated. We are children of God endowed with the power of the Holy Spirit by whose grace we can become righteous. And there are tons of examples in the OT.

Can you show me where in Gen. 22 that which is said about Abraham in Gen. 15:6 is repeated? Can you show me where James quotes Gen. 22 regarding Abraham’s second justification (or third, or fourth, or fifth, sixth, seventh, who knows?)?But where does it say in Gen. 22 that God once again justified Abraham? Yes, he was justified “when” he offered up Isaac; way back in Gen. 15:6. But Scriptures nowhere states that he was justified again BY offering up Isaac.

It is stated in James 2:21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? Isaac wasn’t offered up in Gen 15:6. Maybe the confusion lies in our different understanding of imputation vs. infusion. And maybe I’m guilty of using terminlogy that sounds like he is being justified a second time. We are justified by God and he then continues the justification process.

Righteousness is a New Covenant gift from Christ. It is first given in Baptism and is received by faith. It denotes our restored relationship with God as an adopted son or daughter. This gift of righteousness can then increase through love and obedience to God’s covenant.

Again the LORD’S messenger called to Abraham from heaven and said: "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies (Gen 22:15-17)

**Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)

He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (1 Pet 2:24)

Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7)**

 

[moondweller]

What the verse states is my position, and I’m certain, moondweller’s position.

You see, as I understand the Catholic position, if you were to claim the assurance described by the writer, you would be guilty of the sin of presumption

Which has been stated many times by Catholics on these forums.

Remember, the apostle states he wrote what he did so that in believing that Christ is the Son of God, one may know he has eternal life—past, present, and future; I have that confidence because of my understanding of justification as one thing, and sanctification as another thing, and that is not the Catholic position; the Catholic position is that the two are the same.

Exactly! And so for the Catholic one is justified only to the extent that he is sanctified according to his works. And so he awaits final judgment at the end of his life, based on those works.

So, in reality, Heb. 11:1 does not, nor, cannot state the Catholic position since in this life he has no assurance (or, substance) of things hoped for, and no conviction (or, evidence) of things not seen. To a Catholic such assurance, such conviction (as you rightly pointed out) is “the sin of presumption.” But, in contradistinction, to the writer of Hebrews, it’s what true salvation faith is all about.

 

[sodak]

It’s fascinating to watch folks have to twist the Scripture this way and that in order to make it bow before their personal interpretation.

It’s an allegory on fruit bearing, not a doctrinal statement on damnation. One is not saved or damned based on fruit bearing (the error of Catholicism).

If being thrown into a fire after being separated from the vine isn’t damnation, I don’t know what is. The meaning is quite clear. And your error comment just earned you a trip to the moderators.

You see, Bene, it’s possible to do lots of “works” but never truly believe and therefore never enter salvation and, therefore, never bear fruit.

And it’s possible to falsely proclaim a faith, never do any works, and never enter salvation upon death.

 

[ryanoneil]

The passage also doesn’t say the drawing is not an irresistible decree, and also it doesn’t say that the people who are drawn will not remain with Jesus until the last day.

I don’t disagree. God is powerful enough to will someone to infallibly accept his grace without taking away his freewill.

Regeneration, re-birth, new creation, union with Christ—what do they mean???

We are freed from sin and reborn as sons and daughters of God. We become members of Christ and are incorporated into his Church and mission.

In your framework, God gives grace to believe to everyone. Why is it you’ve chosen to come, while another has chosen to reject???

Are you smarter? Are you more righteous? If all are equal in grace before God, why do you chose Christ, while another rejects Him?

God gives all men sufficient grace to be saved. This is true because God antecedently wills all to be saved, meaning that all have the possibility of salvation. When you start talking about terms like efficacious, operating, and cooperating grace there is no equality.

God’s will including free will is a mystery. Why God draws one and not another is a mystery.

"…and I WILL RAISE HIM UP…"

You consider Jesus saying that, to be Jesus saying nothing about security?

Jesus says plenty about security.

**You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved. (Mt 10:22)

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Mt 24:13)**

Salvation happens at baptism or through faith for example, but salvation is a process also. Remain in Christ and your salvation is assured. Fall away and your salvation is not assured.

Who on this thread is excluding human response???

Those who don’t believe someone can lose their salvation.

God antecedently wills all men to be saved, but consequently wills some to be damned as a punishment for their rejection of grace, as His justice exacts.

 

[SHW]

1 Pet 1:-53 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.”

We are born again through Baptism to a “living hope” to an inheritance, not a guarantee of inheritance.

We must be “protected by the power of God through faith” in order to actually receive this inheritance which is the end of our hope. (Hebrews 6:11)

We are “protected by the power of God through faith” when we obey God’s commandments and produce good works.

The “power” of God is the Holy Spirit who dwells within us when we are in a state of sanctifying grace. The Holy Spirit dwells in us as a result of Baptism.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

2 Timothy 1:13-15 “Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. 15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.”

That good thing (the promise [to those who love God] of eternal life as the end of our hope) is kept by the Holy Spirit (power of God) through our faith (our cooperation with His graces so that we do not commit mortal sins). We hold fast by fearing God and working righteousness and the result of our continued faithfulness is that we are found faithful at our deaths and we inherit eternal life. (Acts 10:34-35).

Phygellus and Hermogenes are no longer saved. They have defiled their temples and the Holy Spirit no longer dwells within them.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.”

Hebrews 3:5-11 "And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house,** whose house we are if** we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “ Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.’ 11 So I swore in My wrath, ‘ They shall not enter My rest.’”

We must remain faithful to the doctrines of Christ. We must be “found faithful” at our deaths in order to receive our inheritance. If we have gone astray and defiled our temples, then we do not enter His rest (eternal life) because the Holy Spirit no longer dwells within us. The Holy Spirit must be living in our souls at our deaths in order for us to be saved.

1 John 3:2-4 "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3** And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.** 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning."

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”

Those who were redeemed and justified who later sin mortal sins are no longer saved. They have committed (practiced) lawlessness (they have denied Jesus by their works) and so Jesus will deny those persons who practice lawlessness on Judgment Day.

Matthew 10:33 “But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”

Matthew 13:40-42 “Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

If we practice lawlessness (commit mortal sin) then we have defiled our temples and the Holy Spirit no longer dwells within us.

If, at our deaths, the Holy Spirit still dwells within us, then we are “found faithful” and we are given eternal life. We cannot be saved unless the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us (in our souls) at our deaths.

Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you (at our deaths), He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.”

We are “protected by the power of God through faith.” We are protected by the Holy Spirit through our faith (our obedience to God’s commandments and our production of good fruits). True Faith “works” through love.

Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”

We must obey God’s commandments in order to “love” God. God only saves those who love Him.

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 John 4:21 “And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”

Romans 13:9 "For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

If we do not love both God and neighbor by actually keeping God’s commandments and producing good fruits as proof of our faith, then we are promised “nothing.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[ncgolf]

:thumbsup:Which has been stated many times by Catholics on these forums.Exactly! And so for the Catholic one is justified only to the extent that he is sanctified according to his works. And so he awaits final judgment at the end of his life, based on those works.

The problem with you is what you believe is faith … I think for you it is a vocal representation only … a stating like a fact that you believe Jesus Christ is your Lord and Savior. Well no, that is not it … it may be a beginnig but it is not faith.

Faith without works is dead so if you die without works associated with the gift of your faith … you are dead … argue with Paul.

What speaks louder action or words … in your theology it is words.

So, in reality, Heb. 11:1 does not, nor, cannot state the Catholic position since in this life he has no assurance (or, substance) of things hoped for, and no conviction (or, evidence) of things not seen. To a Catholic such assurance, such conviction (as you rightly pointed out) is “the sin of presumption.”

The names of the Elect are known to God only. If you have received a private revelation by God stating your name or lack of it in the Book of Life … that is grace. The good thief received this grace while on the cross at Calvary. The sin of presumption is stating with “faithlike certainty in matters of predestination.” (Catholic Encyclopedia).

In other words you have no business in God’s business.

But, in contradistinction, to the writer of Hebrews, it’s what true salvation faith is all about.

No … please do not add to Scripture what is not there … this writer talks of faith … not saving faith or salvation faith or true faith … the writer talks of faith. When you add these little tidbits to the Word you subtract from it … you do not add to it so discuss what is “written” not what you want it to say.

Faith is never alone … as much as you would like it to be … it is faith and works … faith and hope … the greatest of all gifts is love … greater than faith or hope.

Hebrews 11:1 “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.”

Faith is stated here with 2 conditions … of what is hoped for (the promises of Christ) and of evidence of things not seen. (well that is a big bucket in Christianity).

 

[ryanoneil]

So, in reality, Heb. 11:1 does not, nor, cannot state the Catholic position since in this life he has no assurance (or, substance) of things hoped for, and no conviction (or, evidence) of things not seen. To a Catholic such assurance, such conviction (as you rightly pointed out) is “the sin of presumption.” But, in contradistinction, to the writer of Hebrews, it’s what true salvation faith is all about.

Catholics know we are saved, so long as we persevere in faith. We also know salvation is ours to lose.

This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. If we are unfaithful he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.
(2 Tim 2:11-13)

Our ultimate certainty is that Christ will follow through on his promises and threats as so exercise his justice and mercy in perfect faithfulness to the terms of the New Covenant.

 

[ryanoneil]

Faith is stated here with 2 conditions … of what is hoped for (the promises of Christ) and of evidence of things not seen. (well that is a big bucket in Christianity).

Matthew 5:1-12

 

[SHW]

Two things, the statement above is wrong, and I don’t read posts that consist of pages and pages of scripture used to mask the call to works-righteousness, and works salvation.

Hi Howie,

I am sorry that my posts are above your level of understanding. I did not know this fact. However, I do not write for just your benefit alone and hopefully others have profited from my posts.

Since this is a Sacred Scripture forum, how is it that you expect teaching which is not also backed up by Scripture? Perhaps you should join a forum for persons who only want to spout their own “opinions” with no Scriptural proofs.

If you continue with this forum, then from now on, I will only give you a few Scriptures at a time so that you will be able to comprehend them.

1 Corinthians 10:10-13 “Neither should ye murmur, as some of them also murmured – and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened unto them by way of example, and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Therefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

1 Timothy 3:6-7 “He must not be a novice in the faith,** lest being lifted up with pride, he fall into the condemnation of the devil**. 7 Moreover he must have a good reputation with those who are outsiders, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”

2 Peter 3:17 “Ye therefore, beloved, seeing that ye know these things beforehand, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.”

Hebrews 4:11 “Let us labor (work) therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall according to the same example of unbelief.”

Conclusions:

1. Pride comes before a fall.
2. If you fall, you are no longer saved.
3. We must labor (work) in order to be able to enter into our rest.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

Not totally based but it is part of it because for Catholics the Sacramental life is part of Jesus’s gift to his Church. You may not agree with it but I cannot deny it either.

I understand the significance of sacraments to you, and that you cannot deny them and remain Catholic.

Nevertheless, they are to me, an addition to the completed and perfect work of Christ.

ncgolf:

And the truly faithful sin thus tearing and damaging his people on earth … the same as the pagans … so where does that leave us.

My point in saying what I did is, even good works are not a guarantee that one is in the faith, nor are they a guarantee of salvation.

ncgolf:

Good works are good works … I will let God sort out one’s destiny.

That’s tolerant of you.

ncgolf:

It is an assurance, a confidence the writer speaks of … not the guarantee your man made theology has defined so according to our interpretation of Paul it is by no mean’s presumptous.

Wait a minute! The guarantee of which I speak is not “man-made.” It’s made by God:**Ephesians 1:13-14

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.**God makes the downpayment, as the guarantee of the balance.

ncgolf:

Your theology discounts the virture of hope while the Catholic theology of salvation does not … faith and hope go hand in hand, in fact Catholics live in “blessed hope”.

The “blessed hope” of what?

ncgolf:

I find your theology on this one is guilty of presumption.

Why? Because I believe that God is a God of His word? All of God’s promises to those who He has “sealed in Him [Christ]” (Eph 1:13), are “YES!” in Him (2 Cor 1:19-22).

They’re not “yes and no.”

ncgolf:

Uncertainty only in our complete knowledge of God’s plan but when one is “in Christ” as Paul puts it one can be reasonably assured.

I don’t hear Paul saying “reasonably assured,” but “confidently assured.”

ncgolf:

When one is honest with themselves, truly honest, one can know his shortcomings and with the grace of God continue on the path of sanitification … becoming more like Christ … not less.

But the difficulty in that is, you combine sanctification with justification. To you, they are the same. Therefore, I don’t see how can have any assurance, but only a “hope so “ hope.

I know my sanctification can falter, but my justification is sure.

ncgolf:

I will quote a piece of the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the interplay between justification and sanctification.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

44 Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16.
45 Rom 6:19,22.

Here’s the part of the catechism I had in mind:**CCC, under the heading Grace and Justification, para 1989:

**”Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

ncgolf:

What is the real question here … what Person other than Christ does one have faith … be careful on how you answer this. This question really explains the differences between reformers and Catholics as it contains in it how we view Christ differently.

I have faith only in Christ.

How does that explain the difference between me and you?

 

[Howie01]

Hi Howie,

I am sorry that my posts are above your level of understanding.

How presumptuous of you.

Just know that’s as far as I read.

I have a bible of my own.