What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[Howie01]

ncgolf:

It is if I trust in Christ and grace … if I choose to do it alone I am not. This is what sin is … choosing something over Christ.

What do you mean, “if I choose to do it alone, I am not?

And, what do you mean, “This is what sin is, choosing something over Christ?”

I don’t understand.

ncgolf:

Worthless works for the believer is dead faith so how is one saved with dead faith.

Worthless works are not “dead faith,” but worthless works.

Faith without works, is “dead faith.”

ncgolf:

There is an inhertinance only if you remain in the family.

One is sealed by the Spirit into the family, and that sealing, God says, is also into the day of redemption. (Eph 1:13ff).

ncgolf:

Not to me but the Church.

Tell me then, what does it mean to you? :ehh:

ncgolf:

Wow.

:doh2:

 

[SHW]

Continued:

What specifically are "His commandments?

I will list some of them for you:

Matthew 19:16-19 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher,** what** good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

1 John 3:17 “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?” (It doesn’t abide in him because he has transgressed the Royal Law: “love your neighbor as yourself.”) This is why it is very difficult for a rich man to enter eternal life. He wants to keep his weath for himself instead of sharing most of it to help other people. (Matthew 19:22-24, Luke 3:11, Luke 21:1-4)

Matthew 6:14-15 ”For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

1 Timothy 5:8 “But** if** anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” (If you deny the faith, you do not inherit eternal life.)

Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.” (Abominable persons do not inherit eternal life because Jesus denies them when they deny Him.) (Matthew 10:33)

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.” (Luke 10:16)

Galatians 1:9 “As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

The traditions (both oral and written) that the Apostles taught are the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Romans 16:17 “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them.”

2 John 1:8-11 “Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.”

1 John 4:20-21 “If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? 21 And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”

Please list the good fruits that must be produced by us to merit and maintain righteousness.

Matthew 3:8 “Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,”

Hebrews 13:15 “Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name.”

James 3:17 “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”

Romans 6:22 “But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.”

Galatians 5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (We gain these things through obedience.)

Ephesians 5:9-10 “(for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10** finding out what is acceptable** to the Lord.”

1 Timothy 2:1-3 “Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,”

1 Timothy 4:16 “Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.”

Good fruits are produced when we obey God and thank Him and praise Him and also when we love our neighbor by helping him with spiritual direction, food, clothing, housing, etc.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

If we continue to do these things (obey God’s commandments and produce good fruits) which are commanded by the gospel of Christ, then we will be found faithful at our deaths, and we will then inherit eternal life.

1 Peter 5:8 “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.”

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

:thumbsup:Which has been stated many times by Catholics on these forums.Exactly! And so for the Catholic one is justified only to the extent that he is sanctified according to his works. And so he awaits final judgment at the end of his life, based on those works.

So, in reality, Heb. 11:1 does not, nor, cannot state the Catholic position since in this life he has no assurance (or, substance) of things hoped for, and no conviction (or, evidence) of things not seen. To a Catholic such assurance, such conviction (as you rightly pointed out) is “the sin of presumption.” But, in contradistinction, to the writer of Hebrews, it’s what true salvation faith is all about.

[SIGN] Amen! [/SIGN]

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Since you already have a Bible and you are also refusing to actually read and study what we are saying about these Scripture verses in order to comprehend our beliefs, why are you here?

You sent me a PM inviting me to this thread.

SHW:

Ponder on this Scripture passage in your own Bible:

Acts 10:34-36 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. 36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—”

Conclusion: If you do not fear God and also work righteousness, then you will not be accepted by Him. In other words, you will not be saved and you will not inherit eternal life unless you fear (obey) Him and work righteousness (do good works) as proof of your genuine faith.

Not so, my fine friend. The context of the passage is the Gospel invitation being brought to the Gentiles (Note Peter’s summation v 47).

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.

That statement is made to all in Peter’s hearing at the home of Cornelius. Peter understands now, what he should have understood all along—there’s no partiality with God. That’s clearly stated in the OT as well (Dt 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7; Job 34:19). In spite of that, the Jews always held the Gentiles in contempt, but the Lord did not. Witness Ruth, Rahab etc.
Acts10:35:

But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Continuing the theme of the non-partiality of God, Peter declares the invitation of the Gospel is open to all who fear God, and all who work righteousness.

First, “fear” God, means just that. It’s the Gr word phobeō,” and it’s primary meaning is “fear” (cf Mt 10:28)—“the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge” (Pro 1:7; 9:10; 15:33; Ps 111:10; Nob 28:28; Ecc 12:13). A healthy fear of the Lord is a good thing; hopefully it leads to awe and reverence of Him.

When Peter says, …whoever fears Him, and works of righteousness… that does not mean that’s how one is saved; otherwise, Peter would be contradicting the other NT writers, and himself: "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 10:43.

Justification is always by faith alone—no works.

SHW:

We must continue to be justified by both faith and works after our initial justification by grace, or else our faith will not be found genuine at our deaths.

There it is again—justification is sanctification, and sanctification is justification.

Titus 1:15-16

15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure…16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds THEY DENY HIM, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

If you do not do good works, (if you disobey God’s commandments and/or fail to produce food fruits) then you deny Him by your works and you are abominable to God. Abominable persons do not inherit the kingdom of God.

You’re doing the same thing with the Titus verse, that you did with the verse from Hebrews 4, as I pointed out to you.

You’re not following the context of the passage. I must conclude that’s because you’re searching an electronic bible, and taking those verses that contain the word you’re searching, without paying any attention to the context.

As with your mistake with the Hebrews 4 passage, so with the Titus 1:16 passage; namely, if you do that which is stated in the verse, you’re already an unbeliever, as verses 15 makes clear.

That’s why I don’t read your pages, and pages, and pages of verses; the majority are out of context, and therefore, don’t carry the meaning you say they do.

 

[jean8]

Yes, Jesus did “stay” at the house of Zaccheus. And it is true that whoever believes in Christ does not “remain” in darkness. The reason being, he is now “in Christ.” I discussed the difference between “abiding” in Christ and being “in Christ” here

MD,
Are you doing all this on your own or is Jesus helping you?
You said you do not break the Ten Commandments during the day? Are you sleeping?

jean8

 

[SHW]

You sent me a PM inviting me to this thread.

Touche’ That was before I found out that you don’t bother to read our studies if they are too long for you. I won’t make that mistake again. Perhaps you are a troll with no desire for Truth?

Originally posted by Howie01: The context of the passage is the Gospel invitation being brought to the Gentiles (Note Peter’s summation v 47).

Continuing the theme of the non-partiality of God, Peter declares the invitation of the Gospel is open to all who fear God, and all who work righteousness.

A healthy fear of the Lord is a good thing; hopefully it leads to awe and reverence of Him.

When Peter says, …whoever fears Him, and works of righteousness… that does not mean that’s how one is saved; otherwise, Peter would be contradicting the other NT writers, and himself: "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 10:43.

Justification is always by faith alone—no works.

Peter states: Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Jew or gentile, makes no difference. If you fear God and work righteousness you are accepted by Him.

Just what do you think God is accepting you for that you need to fear Him and work righteousness? If you do not need to fear Him and work righteousness in order to inherit eternal life, then why do you have to fear Him and work righteousness in order to be accepted by Him?

Originally posted by Howie01: There it is again—justification is sanctification, and sanctification is justification.

If you searched the Bible and found all Scriptures which pertain to justification, salvation, and sanctification, then you would find out that they are inter-related. Redemption can be given only once to each person, however, and this is through Baptism. But when we are redeemed by the water and the words of Baptism, we are also initially sanctified and justified at this same time and we are given the promise of the hope of eternal life at this Baptism. This is no guarantee of eternal life. We have to “do the will of the Father in heaven” in order to actually inherit eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

Galatians 3:13 "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law (of Moses), having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”

Galatians 4:4-5 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Originally posted by Howie01: You’re not following the context of the passage. I must conclude that’s because you’re searching an electronic bible, and taking those verses that contain the word you’re searching, without paying any attention to the context.

That’s why I don’t read your pages, and pages, and pages of verses; the majority are out of context, and therefore, don’t carry the meaning you say they do.

First of all, all of these books of the Bible were written for believers only. A non-Christian person did not go into a bookstore and peruse the shelves to find something interesting to read and find a Bible to buy. There were no Bibles to buy in those days.

With this truth in mind, all of these warnings about losing salvation, etc. are all addressed to believers who have already been redeemed, sanctified, and justified (saved) by Baptism.

So, I suggest that you start over and study the Scriptures about redemption, salvation, justification, and inheriting eternal life knowing full well that Peter, Paul, James, John, Jude, etc. were all writing to Christian “believers” only. I have taken nothing out of context. The NT Bible was written by Christians for Christians, exhorting them all to obey God’s commandments and produce good fruits if they desire to enter eternal life. They also told these Christians what the consequences of their disobedience would be: (Ephesians 5:5-7, 2 Thessalonians 1:8)

If Church members (believers) could not lose their salvation, justification, or inheritance for eternal life, then most of the New Testament is superfluous. All the writers of the NT would have had to say was this:

“Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will save you and He will save you at that instant and you are saved forevermore.”

Unfortunately, that is not the message of the gospel of Jesus. Jesus states: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Matthew 7:21

Now it is up to you to figure out just what the “will of the Father” is so that you can know what you need to do in order** to enter the kingdom of heaven** (inherit eternal life).

You can start over on your own or you can go back and actually read all of my posts in their entirety and others like mine and you will see that most of the work has already been done for you.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

To abide is to 'remain, stay.

Lu.19:5 “and Jesus came to the place, he looked up and saw him, Zaccheus, make haste, and come down, for today I must abide at your house.” (stay)

Jn.12: 46 " I am come light into the world, that whoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. (remain)

See also Acts 15:34, Rom.11:23 1Pet.1:23, 1Jn.2:16,10,14. (KJV)

Thank you for the definitions. You are absolutely correct!

Abide does mean “remain.”

So, if we abide in Christ, then we remain in Christ.

2 John 1:9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide (remain) in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”

How do we abide in the doctrine of Christ?

1 John 3:24 “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.”

1 John 3:17 “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?”

1 John 3:14 “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.”

We must obey God’s commandments and do works of righteousness (help our brothers) in order to abide (remain) in Christ.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

1 John 2:17 “And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”

Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

If we want to inherit eternal life, then we must do the will of God. No exceptions.

Pax,
SHW

 

[johnpaul87]

pick me! it is the early american people you speak of.Whom just happened to be protestants.Or was it Martin Luther,or the church of england.

hi,guess again

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Just what do you think God is accepting you for that you need to fear Him and work righteousness? If you do not need to fear Him and work righteousness in order to inherit eternal life, then why do you have to fear Him and work righteousness in order to be accepted by Him?

My friend, God does not accept people, nor does He justify people and remit their sins on the basis of works, but by faith (Acts 10:43), and notice that is the message of all the prophets. Salvation has always been by grace, through faith, in God, and not by works.

SHW:

If you searched the Bible and found all Scriptures which pertain to justification, salvation, and sanctification, then you would find out that they are inter-related.

You wrongly assume that I haven’t searched the scripture; I have.

SHW:

Redemption can be given only once to each person, however, and this is through Baptism.

Show me in the OT where it’s said that men are redeemed by baptism? If redemption is through baptism, then all of the OT saints perished. :crying:

SHW:

But when we are redeemed by the water and the words of Baptism, we are also initially sanctified and justified at this same time and we are given the promise of the hope of eternal life at this Baptism.

**Romans 4:1-3

1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”**Paul makes no mention of Abraham being justified by baptism. Neither does God when He justified Abraham (cf Gen 15).

In the two passages cited, what is God’s basis for justification?

SHW:

This is no guarantee of eternal life.

The Spirit’s sealing of the believer is the guarantee (Eph 1:13ff).** John 14:16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;**Note the duration of the giving of the Spirit—FOREVER (cf, again, Eph 1:13ff).

SHW:

They also told these Christians what the consequences of their disobedience would be: (Ephesians 5:5-7)

You forgot v 8**Ephesians 5:8

for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light**What you’ve missed again is, Paul describes in the passage two different groups. Group 1: those who are in darkness, and receive the consequence of remaining in it, and, Group 2: those who were in darkness, but are now in light.

You do take passages, and verses of out of context; you’re just not aware of it.

That verse, 8, illustrates what theologians refer to as the indicative/imperative. The indicative mood in the Greek, refers to state of being; namely, you are light in the Lord; the imperative is the command to live the indicative; namely, walk in the light. IOW, live as what you are; the converse, some may live not as what they are, and will, therefore, lose reward (cf 1 Cor 9:24-27).

SHW:

We have to “do the will of the Father in heaven” in order to actually inherit eternal life.

Here’s the will of the Father:**Acts 17:30

“…God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent…"**

SHW:

If Church members (believers) could not lose their salvation, justification, or inheritance for eternal life, then most of the New Testament is superfluous. All the writers of the NT would have had to say was this:

“Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ will save you and He will save you at that instant and you are saved forevermore.”

But that is what they’re saying. Again, note the duration of the giving of the Spirit—forever (Jn 14:16). And, everyone God justifies, He also glorifies (Rom 8:30).

SHW:

Unfortunately, that is not the message of the gospel of Jesus. Jesus states: “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” Matthew 7:21

My friend, all who find themselves in that position are in that position because they didn’t repent and believe. They thought they did, but obviously, they didn’t. Those in view, claim to have done some remarkable works, problem is, that’s where they wrongly believed their justification was (cf Lk 18:10-14). Christ response to them is, attempting to be justified by works is lawlessness.

SHW:

Now it is up to you to figure out just what the “will of the Father” is so that you can know what you need to do in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (inherit eternal life).

Here again, is the will of God regarding entrance into the kingdom:** Acts 17:30

“…God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent…”**At the moment one repents, and believes, He’s sealed with the Spirit, and the duration of the Spirit’s sealing is forever (Eph 1:13ff; Jn 14:16).

.

 

[SHW]

Show me in the OT where it’s said that men are redeemed by baptism? If redemption is through baptism, then all of the OT saints perished.

They were not under the NT Covenant, but we are. Peter states that God accepts all persons from every nation who fear Him and work righteousness. So this means that the OT persons (Saints) who were not Jews under the Old Covenant Law of Moses were saved because they feared God and worked righteousness. (Acts 10:34-35) They (and the Gentiles) followed their consciences because God writes the Royal Law within every person’s heart. Abraham et al were saved by faith and obedience to God. They were not under the OT Covenant Law of Moses. The Jews were saved by adhering to the Law of Moses. None of them (Abraham et al, Gentile, Israelite, or Jew), were redeemed from Adam’s Sin until Jesus died on the cross. This is why they were waiting in the bosom of Abraham (Limbo) or purgatory until Jesus’ death and resurrection and ascension. (Luke 16:22-24)

Romans 2:14-16 “for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”

James 2:21 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?”

EVERY PERSON is judged by the Royal Law because it came into being when mankind was created and it is now a part of the gospel of Jesus and it will always be in force and we are all judged by it when we die.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

The Spirit’s sealing of the believer is the guarantee (Eph 1:13ff).

John 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

Note the duration of the giving of the Spirit—FOREVER (cf, again, Eph 1:13ff).

Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit will be with His Church forever. Jesus is only speaking to His disciples (His chosen few) who are with Him at the Last Supper. Judas had already left so that he could be ready to betray the Lord. The Holy Spirit was promised forever to His Church which He built on Peter.

Matthew 16:16-19 "Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 28:18-20 “And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo,** I am with you** always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.”

The Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, is with His Church forever.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Ephesians 5:8  for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

What you’ve missed again is, Paul describes in the passage two different groups. Group 1: those who are in darkness, and receive the consequence of remaining in it, and, Group 2: those who were in darkness, but are now in light.

Paul is actually pointing out that they formerly walked in darkness. He states that now they are walking in Light. He states that they must continue to walk as children of Light. When he says “walk as children of Light,” he is commanding them to do so. If they do not, then there will be consequences. If you read the rest of the 5th Chapter of Ephesians you will find this to be true.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

He only glorifies those whom He had originally predestined for eternal life.

However, a person can be justified but not glorified. This Scripture does not state that all persons who are justified are predestined. It states that all of those who are predestined are justified.

Matthew 12:33-37 "“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.””

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

My friend, all who find themselves in that position are in that position because they didn’t repent and believe. They thought they did, but obviously, they didn’t. Those in view, claim to have done some remarkable works, problem is, that’s where they wrongly believed their justification was (cf Lk 18:10-14). Christ response to them is, attempting to be justified by works is lawlessness.

Lk 18:10-14 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14** I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other**; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

The tax collector’s humbling of self was a “work.”

Disobedience to God’s commandments is lawlessness:

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.”

Jesus condemns those who commit sin because sin is lawlessness. Good works are not lawlessness. Good works are “works of righteousness” (Acts 10:34-35)

So, if you claim to know God and you “talk the talk” but do not “walk the walk” (in other words, you do not obey His commandments), then Jesus will not know you on Judgment Day.

Matthew 13:41-42 “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

2 Peter 2:21 “For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

If you sin (practice lawlessness) then you lose your justification.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Originally Posted by SHW
Now it is up to you to figure out just what the “will of the Father” is so that you can know what you need to do in order to enter the kingdom of heaven (inherit eternal life).

Here is an example of what “the will of the father” means:

Matthew 21:28-32 "A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, ‘Son, go, work today in my vineyard.’ 29 He answered and said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, ‘I go, sir,’ but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said to Him, “The first.”

The person who obeys the whole gospel of Jesus (which includes His commandments) is the person who does the will of the Father.

Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

At the moment one repents, and believes, He’s sealed with the Spirit, and the duration of the Spirit’s sealing is forever (Eph 1:13).

Eph 1:13-14 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit through the waters of Baptism. He puts a mark or seal on our souls which cannot be removed. This seal shows that we have been redeemed by the blood of Christ. You can only be redeemed once. At this time of our redemption, we are also sanctified and justified. These mean different things but they are related.

Baptism regenerates us spiritually (Titus 3:4-6) and we go from being enemies of God (because of Adam’s sin: Romans 5) to friends of God (John 15:14) because Jesus chose Baptism as the means by which to apply His sacrifice on the cross to our souls so that the Holy Spirit could then abide in us within our souls (His temples) when we are in a state of grace. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

1 Corinthians 6:11 “…you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the guarantee of our inheritance but we do not actually receive the inheritance until we have been approved at our deaths (we have proved by our actions (works) that we have loved Him). We have hope of eternal life, but no guarantee of eternal life, after we are baptized.

Hebrews 6:10-12 “For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but** imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises**.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the** Lord has promised** to those who love Him.”

How does Jesus judge if we love Him?

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Only those persons who obey Jesus’ commandments love Him and only those who love Him actually receive the promise.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

They were not under the NT Covenant, but we are.

That’s right. The covenant defines how God deals with people. Only two principles exist relating to the way God saves people—grace and law. Under the principle of grace, God deals favorably with sinful people in a way they don’t deserve. The principle of law, or works, requires God to deal with people in a way they do deserve. Sinners deserve death and hell, and they can’t be delivered from that penalty by the works principle (Rom 3:20; 8:3; Gal 2:16; 3:10-12; Heb 7:18-19.

The two principles, grace and law, are opposite both in the way they operate, and their results (Rom 11:6; 4:4-5).

What the revelation of the NT reveals is, throughout history, God has saved people by His grace (Eph 2:8-9; Ps 103:10-12; Gen 6:8; 15:5-6; Rom 4:1-5, 16; 11:5-6), and not by baptism.

SHW:

Peter states that God accepts all persons from every nation who fear Him and work righteousness. So this means that the OT persons (Saints) who were not Jews under the Old Covenant Law of Moses were saved because they feared God and worked righteousness. (Acts 10:34-35).

My friend, no one is saved by works (Rom 3:20).

SHW:

The Jews were saved by adhering to the Law of Moses.

The purpose of the law is not to save, but teach one that he is a sinner.

Salvation does not come by the law:** Galatians 3:11, 2111 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God IS EVIDENT; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith…”

21 …For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.**Paul keeps killing that idea of salvation by any law.

SHW:

EVERY PERSON is judged by the Royal Law because it came into being when mankind was created and it is now a part of the gospel of Jesus and it will always be in force and we are all judged by it when we die.

Yes they will. But, the believer does not come into condemnation because he’s died to the law (Jn 5:24; Rom 7:4).

SHW:

Jesus is saying that the Holy Spirit will be with His Church forever. Jesus is only speaking to His disciples (His chosen few) who are with Him at the Last Supper. Judas had already left so that he could be ready to betray the Lord. The Holy Spirit was promised forever to His Church which He built on Peter.

Please, the promise of the Spirit is for those who believe (cf Jn 7:39, Eph 1:13ff etc.), and the duration of the Spirit in the one to whom He’s given is FOREVER. That’s revelation.

SHW:

He only glorifies those whom He had originally predestined for eternal life.

That’s right.

SHW:

However, a person can be justified but not glorified.

That’s not right.

SHW:

This Scripture does not state that all persons who are justified are predestined.

You’re arguing from silence; why are you doing that? I’ll tell you why. You’re doing that because you can’t prove your statement that there are those who are justified but not predestined. The weakness of your argument is overwhelming!

But what is convincing is, Scripture states that those who believe are justified, and they are sealed by the forever sealing of the Spirit (Rom 4:3; Eph 1:13ff; Jn 14:16).

Concerning your use of Mt 12:33-37, you again ignore the context, which speaks of the evidence as to the type of tree one is, not how one is justified before God (Rom 4:3).

SHW:

The tax collector’s humbling of self was a “work.”

Why do you put work in “quotes?” Is it 'cause deep down you really know no one’s saved by works?

No one’s saved by works.

That’s to exclude to boasting.

Do you think the tax collector is boasting?

 

[johnpaul87]

Romans 8:30 “Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

He only glorifies those whom He had originally predestined for eternal life.

However, a person can be justified but not glorified. This Scripture does not state that all persons who are justified are predestined. It states that all of those who are predestined are justified.

Matthew 12:33-37 "“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.””

Pax,
SHW

hey guys, still no mention of being born again. tisk tisk

 

[SHW]

That’s right. The covenant defines how God deals with people. Only two principles exist relating to the way God saves people—grace and law. Under the principle of grace, God deals favorably with sinful people in a way they don’t deserve. The principle of law, or works, requires God to deal with people in a way they do deserve. Sinners deserve death and hell, and they can’t be delivered from that penalty by the works principle (Rom 3:20; 8:3; Gal 2:16; 3:10-12; Heb 7:18-19.

The two principles, grace and law, are opposite both in the way they operate, and their results (Rom 11:6; 4:4-5).

What the revelation of the NT reveals is, throughout history, God has saved people by His grace (Eph 2:8-9; Ps 103:10-12; Gen 6:8; 15:5-6; Rom 4:1-5, 16; 11:5-6), and not by baptism.

Hi Howie,

I am truly sorry that I cannot help you to see, using reason and logic, that there is no such thing as “eternal security” on earth.

I agree that Jesus did redeem us and sanctify us and justify us as a free gift of grace when He died on the cross.

But you believe that once you are justified, then you are always justified, and that you can never lose your justification, and that you automatically inherit eternal life. I disagree with this doctrine.

I believe that we are given “hope” for eternal life. (Titus 1:1-3, Titus 3:6-8, 1 Thessalonians 5:8) I believe that we must be found faithful (1 Corinthians 4:2) at our deaths (worthy) (2 Thessalonians 1:4-11, Philippians 1:27) in order to inherit eternal life (receive the crown ). (Revelation 3:11)
**
James 1:12** “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.”

James states that Jesus promises to save those who love Him. However, they are not given the crown of life (eternal life) until after they are approved (not until after they prove that they love Him).
**
Scripture plainly states that in order to “love” Him, we must keep His commandments.** So logic and reason tell me that if you do not keep His commandments, then you will not be approved; therefore you will not inherit eternal life.

Approval for inheriting eternal life is conditional on whether a person obeys God’s commandments or not. If we do not obey His commandments, then we actually do not love Him and we will not be approved. Jesus never promises to save those who do not love Him. He only promises to save those who do love Him.

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Jesus also states that we do not “know” Him unless we keep His commandments. He calls us liars if we say we know Him but we do not obey His commandments.

Scripture states that all liars will go to hell. (Revelation 21:8)

Since you cannot see this truth that the promise of eternal life is only given to those who love Him (those who keep His commandments), then we will have to agree to disagree.

Pax,
SHW