What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[benedictus2]

My friend, no one is saved by works (Rom 3:20).

Buddy, James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. “

The purpose of the law is not to save, but teach one that he is a sinner.

If the only purpose of the law (i.e.) the Ten Commandments is as a teaching aid regarding our sins, then there would be no consequence to its violation right?

So if you break all the Ten Commandments you will still be saved because all it will mean is that you failed to learn. Is that correct?

Salvation does not come by the law. Glatians 3:11, 21 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God IS EVIDENT; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith…”

That is right The Law by itself cannot grant salvation because only God can grant salvation. However, obedience to the law is necessary for salvation refer to Matthew 19:16.

Christ himself said He has not come to abolish the law. If the law is not necessary He would have abolished it but He did not.

If you break the first commandment and worshipped other Gods like the pagans, would that be okay? After all, that law cannot save you, right?

For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. Paul keeps killing that idea of salvation by any law.

Perhaps, But Christ Himself, not Paul, God Himself said to the rich young man when asked how to gain eternal life, he said keep the commandments. So are you pitting Paul against Christ?

God the Father Himself gave us the Ten Commandment and you are saying that He has done something useless?

Yes they will. But, the believer does not come into condemnation because he’s died to the law (Jn 5:24; Rom 7:4).

I think you are quoting here something you do not quite understand. What does it mean to die to the law? What law the Torah? But God’s Ten Commandments are part of theTorah.

Please, the promise of the Spirit is for those who believe (cf Jn 7:39, Eph 1:13ff etc.),

Wrong. No matter how you twist that chapter around, the promise is not given to all who believe. It is evident in real life that the Holy Spirit cannot be inspiring all who believe for the simple reason that believers are coming into different interpretations of the same verses in the Bible.

That promise to be led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

and the duration of the Spirit in the one to whom He’s given is FOREVER. That’s revelation.

Nope, that is not revelation. That is YOUR OPINION. The heretics were believers too and yet they came up with heresies.

You’re arguing from silence; why are you doing that? I’ll tell you why. You’re doing that because you can’t prove your statement that there are those who are justified but not predestined. The weakness of your argument is overwhelming!

Actually SHW is right. Not all those justified have been pre-destined. God predestined some (the elect) for eternal salvation because these people are all part of how He will accomplish the great work of salvation.

Not only those predestined will be justified. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to a whole lot of ridiculous conclusions one of them being an evil God.

But what is convincing is, Scripture states that those who believe are justified, and they are sealed by the forever sealing of the Spirit (Rom 4:3; Eph 1:13ff; Jn 14:16).

Let’s take all those verses one by one.

Romans 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Abraham was declared righteous not by mere believing but by actually being righteous. If you remember, he followed through with his belief. He was ready to sacrifice Isaac. His action spoke of his belief. Belief here means not just a mere assent that Chist is God.

Eph 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed, with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment, of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

So therefore there are other installments to come. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit at baptism is just a first step.

Before we go to v16 of John 14 we have to read first verse 15 which goes:

**If you love me you will keep my commandments. **

Why did you skip that verse?

Then it goes in v16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

So here He is saying, that a precondition to him sending the Advocate is loving him and so keeping His commandments.

Now in another passage He says, He and the Father are one. Now the Father gave us the The Commandments. So obviously these are his commandments as well.

 

[benedictus2]

Why do you put work in “quotes?” Is it 'cause deep down you really know no one’s saved by works?

I would say that SHW put “works” in quotes to emphasize that work is a requirement of salvation. Jesus says not every one who calls Him Lord, Lord will see enter the kingdom. Who does? Those WHO DO THE WILLL OF HIS FATHER.

No one’s saved by works.
And according to James “NO ONE IS SAVED BY FAITH ALONE”. Now THAT is in scripture.

 

[Howie01]

benedictus2:

Buddy, James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. “

You’ve not explained the verse; are you saying Catholic justification is by works?

benedictus2:

If the only purpose of the law (i.e.) the Ten Commandments is as a teaching aid regarding our sins, then there would be no consequence to its violation right?

The consequences of the law pertain only to those who are under the law:**Galatians 3:10For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”**Warning: if you seek to be justified by the law, you cannot break any part of the law; if you do, it’s curtains for you (cf Mt 5:48; Jas 2:10). It’s your choice; God’s provided a better way through Christ.

benedictus2:

So if you break all the Ten Commandments you will still be saved because all it will mean is that you failed to learn. Is that correct?

See above.

benedictus2:

That is right The Law by itself cannot grant salvation because only God can grant salvation. However, obedience to the law is necessary for salvation refer to Matthew 19:16.

That man kept all the commandments; have you?

benedictus2:

Christ himself said He has not come to abolish the law. If the law is not necessary He would have abolished it but He did not.

OK.

benedictus2:

If you break the first commandment and worshipped other Gods like the pagans, would that be okay?

No.

benedictus2:

After all, that law cannot save you, right?

Right.

benedictus2:

Perhaps, But Christ Himself, not Paul, God Himself said to the rich young man when asked how to gain eternal life, he said keep the commandments.

And the rich young man said he kept all of the commandments, and so, he didn’t need a savior, at least not from his sins, because the rich young ruler, by his own admission, was sinless.

benedictus2:

So are you pitting Paul against Christ?

In what way do you think I’m pitting Paul against Christ?

benedictus2:

God the Father Himself gave us the Ten Commandment and you are saying that He has done something useless?

I am?

benedictus2:

I think you are quoting here something you do not quite understand.

Why do you think that?

benedictus2:

What does it mean to die to the law?

Dying to the law is accomplished by receiving the promise of the Spirit through faith [alone] (Gal 3:13-14; cf Rom 7:4).

benedictus2:

Wrong. No matter how you twist that chapter around, the promise is not given to all who believe.

My friend, the statement made in the verse concerns the giving of the Spirit, and the duration of the Spirit in the giving—FOREVER.

If any tampering with the verse is going on, it’s on your part.

benedictus2:

That promise to be led into all Truth by the Holy Spirit was given to the Church.

How are you defining “Church” in that statement?

(continued)

 

[Howie01]

(continued from 223)

.

benedictus2:

Nope, that is not revelation. That is YOUR OPINION.

** John 14:16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you FOREVER**Please explain to me how that verse is not part of revelation, and is only my opinion?

benedictus2:

Actually SHW is right. Not all those justified have been pre-destined.

And the proof for that is found where, in Scripture?

benedictus2:

Abraham was declared righteous not by mere believing but by actually being righteous.

So now we have two people for whom Christ didn’t die because they were already righteous—Abraham, and the rich young ruler. Anyone else?

Also, how do you square your very unorthodox belief with this statement by Paul:** Romans 4:5But to the one who does not work, but believes in [God] who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,**You see, what you state in your belief is an impossibility—God doesn’t justify the GODLY, but only the UNGODLY.

benedictus2:

Eph 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed, with the promised holy Spirit, which is the first installment, of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

So therefore there are other installments to come. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit at baptism is just a first step.

A first installment? How contemporary. However, what it meant at that time is a pledge for the final redemption. The Spirit is given “into the day of redemption’ (Eph 4:30).

ISTM, you think of God as a “welsher?” Why is that?

benedictus2:

Before we go to v16 of John 14 we have to read first verse 15 which goes:

If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Why did you skip that verse?

Because it has nothing to do with the next verse.

benedictus2:

Then it goes in v16: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

So here He is saying, that a precondition to him sending the Advocate is loving him and so keeping His commandments.

So here again, you proclaim the Spirit is given on the precondition that one has already kept, and continues to keep the Lord’s commandments.

Therefore, we see again, Catholic theology teaches that God doesn’t justify the UNGODLY, and give them the Spirit; rather, God justifies those who already love Christ, and, who have kept, and continue to keep all of His commandments.

(I refer you again to the warning above.)

How is it, in your unorthodox view, that one who already loves Christ, and has always kept His commandments without fail, even needs to be justified by God? Why does that one need a Savior, according to you?

For what, and for whom did Christ die, according to you? :ehh:

 

[SHW]

For what, and for whom did Christ die, according to you?

Christ died so that He could redeem me (and all others) (1 Timothy 2:3-4) from Adam’s sin (Romans 5) and also to take away my personal sins at this same time of redemption.

When I took advantage of His free gift of grace by consenting to Baptism through faith (Mark 16:16), I was then sanctified and justified (1 Corinthians 6:11) and I now have hope (Titus 1:2) of entering eternal life and I will have eternal life when I die** if **I continue to abide (remain) in Christ for my entire life. (John 15:6)

And if I sin after my Baptism, and if I also repent before death, then I will again abide in Christ; and if I am found still abiding in Christ at my death, then I will inherit eternal life. (Ezekiel 33:12-20)

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

If I abide in Christ (John 15:10) and I am found faithfully (1 Corinthians 4:2) abiding in Christ (2 John 1:9) when I die, then I am approved (found worthy) (1 Thessalonians 2:11-12) and I will receive the crown of life which the Lord promised to those who keep His commandments (those who love Him).

Scripture states that we love Him by keeping His commandments. If we do not keep His commandments, then He will not save us because we do not love Him. The Lord only promises the crown of eternal life to those who love Him (those who keep His commandments).

If persons think that other Scriptures contradict this very plain teaching (only those persons who obey God’s commandments actually inherit eternal life) then they are misinterpreting the other Scriptures. Scriptures cannot contradict each other. Persons must be taught the correct interpretation of Scripture by the Catholic Church in order to prevent error.

The Church, using her authority (2 Corinthians 13:10) given to her by Jesus Christ, compiled the Canon of Scripture for both the OT and NT after deciding which writings were inspired. The Church has the final authority to decide the correct interpretation of Scripture, not individuals. (1 Timothy 3:15)

We must be taught the correct interpretation by the Catholic Church which Jesus built upon Peter (Matthew 16:18) or else we will be led away from the faith (gospel of Jesus) to damnation by the error of the wicked.

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which** untaught** and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”

Pax,
SHW

 

[johnpaul87]

Christ died so that He could redeem me (and all others) (1 Timothy 2:3-4) from Adam’s sin (Romans 5) and also to take away my personal sins at this same time of redemption.

When I took advantage of His free gift of grace by consenting to Baptism through faith (Mark 16:16), I was then sanctified and justified (1 Corinthians 6:11) and I now have hope (Titus 1:2) of entering eternal life and I will have eternal life when I die** if **I continue to abide (remain) in Christ for my entire life. (John 15:6)

And if I sin after my Baptism, and if I also repent before death, then I will again abide in Christ; and if I am found still abiding in Christ at my death, then I will inherit eternal life. (Ezekiel 33:12-20)

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

If I abide in Christ (John 15:10) and I am found faithfully (1 Corinthians 4:2) abiding in Christ (2 John 1:9) when I die, then I am approved (found worthy) (1 Thessalonians 2:11-12) and I will receive the crown of life which the Lord promised to those who keep His commandments (those who love Him).

Scripture states that we love Him by keeping His commandments. If we do not keep His commandments, then He will not save us because we do not love Him. The Lord only promises the crown of eternal life to those who love Him (those who keep His commandments).

If persons think that other Scriptures contradict this very plain teaching (only those persons who obey God’s commandments actually inherit eternal life) then they are misinterpreting the other Scriptures. Scriptures cannot contradict each other. Persons must be taught the correct interpretation of Scripture by the Catholic Church in order to prevent error.

The Church, using her authority (2 Corinthians 13:10) given to her by Jesus Christ, compiled the Canon of Scripture for both the OT and NT after deciding which writings were inspired. The Church has the final authority to decide the correct interpretation of Scripture, not individuals. (1 Timothy 3:15)

We must be taught the correct interpretation by the Catholic Church which Jesus built upon Peter (Matthew 16:18) or else we will be led away from the faith (gospel of Jesus) to damnation by the error of the wicked.

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which** untaught** and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,”

Pax,
SHW

hey, still no mention
of being born again. the devils believe everything you talk about, but they arent going to heaven

 

[johnpaul87]

hey all,happy sunday

 

[mbrislawn]

doesn’t justify the UNGODLY, and give them the Spirit;[/I]

rather, God justifies those who already love Christ, and, who have kept, and continue to keep all of His commandments.

How is it, in your unorthodox view, that one who already loves Christ, and has always kept His commandments without fail, even needs to be justified by God? Why does that one need a Savior, according to you?

I think the above quote is getting the cart before the horse.

Yes, in a sense, God justifies those who already love Him. So, how do they come to love Him? Romans 10:14-15 tells us:

But how can they call to Him for help
if they have not believed?
And how can they believe
if they have not heard the message?
And how can they hear
if the message is not proclaimed?
And how can the message be proclaimed
if the messengers are not sent out?
As the scripture says,
“How wonderful is the coming of messengers who bring good news!”

Upon hearing the good news, the pagans, the gentiles, the heathen, the ungodly, and those who have never kept a commandment in their lives, come to believe and to love Him, and call to Him for help. And, believing and loving Him they accept His justification, and in baptism appeal to Him for a clear conscience.

They are now justified, even if having never kept a commandment in their lives. God does justify the “ungodly.” These who were ungodly and who came to love Him, now keep the law of Christ because they love Him. (Yes, there is indeed a law: the law of Christ.)

Now, what if you do not keep the law of Christ? It means you do not love Him, and you are a liar. And, liars cannot enter the heavenly city.

However, it is true, we are all sinners, so we will not be able to keep the law of Chirst perfectly. But, if we love Christ and are not liars, we will come back to Him. And, we have the assurance of our salvation and our hope because we know He will keep His promise. Unlike the whimsical, arbitrary, unreliable pagan gods, our God is reliable. He will not change His mind about His promise.

Now, we cannot keep our promise on our own. We will sin and not live up to Christ’s Law. But, we are not on our own. We have Christ. “With Him we can do much.” “It is not our works, lest anyone should boast.”

That is worth repeating, so I will: “Lest anyone should boast.”

 

[moondweller]

Buddy, James 2:24 “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

But you completely misunderstand the context in which James is stating this.

If the only purpose of the law (i.e.) the Ten Commandments is as a teaching aid regarding our sins, then there would be no consequence to its violation right?

Bene, according to Divine revelation, through ONE man sin entered into the world, and as a result death spread to all men through this one manRom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (i.e., in Adam)

Rom. 6:23 "The wages of sin is death…"Adam is the only man who became a sinner by transgressing a direct commandment. The rest of us are born sinners.

From Adam to Moses there was only ONE commandment given and that was the prohibition to eat the fruit of a specific tree. There was no other Divine commandment which men could transgress. Nevertheless, sin was in the world and death continued to reigned over all mankind, all the way to Moses.

Through Moses came the Law with its “thou shalt…” and “thou shalt not…” commandments. But the purpose of the Law was not to impart life; as Paul taught:“For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law” (Gal. 3:21).Man’s problem was death, but the Law could not impart life. Why? Because through the Law comes the “knowledge of sin” (Rom. 3:20). Not life. It only defined sin through Holy commandments, thereby verifying the truth that ALL men sin, exposing all men to be sinners. For this reason the Decalogue (the Ten Commandments) is called a “ministry of death” and “condemnation” (2 Cor. 3:6-9) for those who were under it.

Therefore LIFE and RIGHTEOUSNESS must be based on a completely different principle than that of law (commandment keeping). With the coming of Christ that Divine principle was clearly revealed:Rom 3:21 "But now apart from law (the principle of) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction (between Jew and Gentile); for all sinned (in Adam) and (continue to) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"So you see, Bene, the consequence of sin: Death, had already spread to all men, in Adam, long before the Law was given through Moses. Before any men were “under Law” they were “under sin,” and therefore all men die. The Law merely defined sin through the transgression of specific commandments.

So yes, the Law was a “teaching aid” In fact it’s called a paidagogos (child conductor; tutor). It couldn’t impart life, nor could righteousness come through one’s attempt to perfectly keep it. Keeping the Law could not reverse man’s sin in the Garden and the death sentence that spread to all men through the first man, Adam. Righteousness and life would come through a “second Man,” the “Last Adam,” through the principle of Divine GRACE through FAITH in Him alone.

Paul explains to those Galatians who were deceived and quickly turned away from the principle of grace through faith to a principle of law:Gal 3:23 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under (the principle of) law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor** {to lead us} to Christ**, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So if you break all the Ten Commandments you will still be saved because all it will mean is that you failed to learn. Is that correct?

What you need to learn is that salvation is based on the Divine principle of GRACE through FAITH alone. Not the principle of law, at all: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

That is right The Law by itself cannot grant salvation because only God can grant salvation.

Salvation entails LIFE and no law can impart life. All law can do is condemn transgressors of it. The life that men are in dire need of is found only in the Son (1 Jn. 5:11-12), and one is gifted His life at the time of personal faith in Him. Paul writes to the church at Rome:Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death (which spread to all men), but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

However, obedience to the law is necessary for salvation refer to Matthew 19:16.

Salvation entails life and no law (nor obedience to it) can impart it.

Christ himself said He has not come to abolish the law. If the law is not necessary He would have abolished it but He did not.

Christ was born a Jew, born under the Law. And as a Jew He fulfilled the Law which He was born under (Gal. 4:1-4)

 

[moondweller]

Benedictus2:

If you break the first commandment and worshipped other Gods like the pagans, would that be okay? After all, that law cannot save you, right?

Right! That’s why it’s called a ministry of condemnation and death. It was intended to save anyone. Salvation doesn’t come through keeping that commandment, but through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Believers worship Christ, not other gods.

Perhaps, But Christ Himself, not Paul, God Himself said to the rich young man when asked how to gain eternal life, he said keep the commandments. So are you pitting Paul against Christ?

That man was a Jew, born under the Law. Rather than believe in Christ he asked Him what he himself could do to inherit eternal life. Keep in mind that the Law was to be his tutor to lead him to Christ that he would be “justified by FAITH.” Christ was right before him and he believed in Him not.

Hopefully the Law did lead Him to Christ. Hopefully, you who self-impose the Law over you will eventually realize your hopelessness through it and look to Christ that you, also, may be “justified by faith.”

God the Father Himself gave us the Ten Commandment and you are saying that He has done something useless?

Are you Jewish? Were your ancestors at Mt. Sinai when the Ten Commandments were given?

You who self-impose the Law for righteousness sake render the cross of Christ useless.

I think you are quoting here something you do not quite understand. What does it mean to die to the law? What law the Torah? But God’s Ten Commandments are part of theTorah.

That’s right, the Ten Commandments are part of the Torah (the Law). But Paul says:Rom 10:4 "For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believes."It’s you who don’t understand. In Romans 6:6 it’s stated that the believer (the “old self,” i.e., all who he was in Adam) was “crucified with Christ” and he is now raised to new life with Him. Now for the believing Jew who was under the jurisdiction of Law (Rom. 7:1-6), it is stated that he died TO the Law with Christ and is now, through death, lawfully joined to Another - the resurrected Christ:Rom 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Rom 7:6 "But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter"If the believing Jew is no longer bound to the Law (the Ten Commandments), having died with Christ to it, and is now released from it through death, how much more the believing Gentile who was never under that covenant of Law and who enters into salvation strictly through faith in Christ alone?

It’s you who fail to understand the power of God in the cross of Christ and the Scriptures which state:Rom 3:27-30 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. Or is God {the God} of Jews only? Is He not {the God} of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised (Jews) by faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through faith is one."

The truth and testimony of God, according to the Scriptures, is that all men, Jew and Gentile alike, are justified, as a gift, through faith in Christ alone, because there is plenty of redemption in His blood (Rom. 3:24).

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Hi Howie,

I am truly sorry that I cannot help you to see, using reason and logic, that there is no such thing as “eternal security” on earth.

I understand your sorrow.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

James states that Jesus promises to save those who love Him. However, they are not given the crown of life (eternal life) until after they are approved (not until after they prove that they love Him).

My friend, none of what you claim can occur without God granting belief:Philippians 1:29For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…“Grant,” Gr charidzomai, there’s that pesky root grace again. It’s all about grace, through faith, without which none of the love you talk about will ever occur:**1 John 4:19We love, because He first loved us.**That’s why you love—God initiates it, not you. That’s why no one is saved because they love God, because no one loves God, until He first loves them.

And once He does that, a flurry of activity occurs—regeneration, repentance, belief, justification, love, the forever sealing of the believer, as God’s possession, by the Spirit.

Believers cannot fail to persevere. They are loved by God, because they are His possesion, and He wills their success. Believers can rest assured they will persevere in trial because God promises that He will never give them a trial without also giving them the ability to endure the trial:**1 Corinthians 10:13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE IT.**He guarantees the believer’s endurance! :extrahappy:

Therefore, every believer will receive the crown of life!

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Jesus also states that we do not “know” Him unless we keep His commandments.

John’s first epistle is an epistle teaching assurance.

It’s constant repetition is "we know!" Everything in that epistle is about one knowing, assuredly, that he is Christ’s. John’s stated purpose in writing the epistle is, ”so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

It’s ironic that use his first epistle against the position of assurance. ISTM that again, you’re unaware of the context.

(An aside: you’re deceived if you think that I, and others who believe as I do, don’t keep commandments. We do. The difference is our understanding is correct—that’s not what saves, but grace, through faith, in Christ.)

 

[Howie01]

mbrislawn:

I think the above quote is getting the cart before the horse.

That’s the perfect description of benedictus2’s unorthodox statements: the cart’s before the horse.

 

[SHW]

hey, still no mention
of being born again. the devils believe everything you talk about, but they arent going to heaven

What do you think “being born again” means? Please show Scriptures to back up your belief. I will then tell you if I agree with you, and if I do not, I will explain why I don’t, using Scripture to back up my belief. Thank you.

Pax,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

But you completely misunderstand the context in which James is stating this.

Nope I am not misunderstanding this at all. As a matter of fact, the meaning is very clear. That is why Luther wanted to get rid of James and called it an epistle of straw. He knew it goes against Sola Fide that is why he proposed to have it excised in the same way he did the deuterocanonicals.

James is VERY VERY CLEAR. No one is saved by faith alone. And that is the only instance in the entire Bible when “faith” and “alone” went together.

Bene, according to Divine Revelation, through ONE man sin entered into the world, and as a result death spread

to all men through this one man

Rom 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- (i.e., in Adam)
Rom. 6:23 “The wages of sin is death…”
Adam is the only man who became a sinner by transgressing a direct commandment. The rest of us are born sinners

But we are also all born with Free Will. When we sin, we transgress against the commandment. When we sin we choose to sin. We cannot say “I cannot help it” because we have free-will. What? You want to get away from your culpability with regards your sins? Well, well, aren’t you Adam and Even all over again, saying she made me do it and the serpent made do it. Hogwash!!

So you see, Bene, the consequence of sin: Death

, had already spread to all men, in Adam, long before the Law was given through Moses.

EXACTLY!!! You just debunked your own position there.

If death was already there before Moses, before the Law, then how can the Law condemn us to death when as you so plainly said we WERE ALREADY DEAD BEFORE IT CAME.

Since God the Father gave us the commandments after the fall, why would he give us something to condemn us when we were already condemned by Adam’s sin?

Before any men were “under Law” they were “under sin,” and therefore all men die. The Law merely defined sin through the transgression of specific commandments.So yes, the Law was a “teaching aid” In fact it’s called a paidagogos (child conductor; tutor).

That is entirely your opinion. You keep quoting Paul and I quote Christ!

Christ said in the Gospels when asked how to attain eternal life, “Keep the commandments”. Faith in Him alone is not enough. You need to keep the commandments or else your faith is a dead faith.

God’s Law is related to attaining eternal life.

It couldn’t impart life, nor could righteousness come through one’s attempt to perfectly keep it. Keeping the Law could not reverse man’s sin in the Garden and the death sentence that spread to all men through the first man, Adam. Righteousness and life would come through a "second Man

," the “Last Adam,” through the principle of Divine GRACE through FAITH in Him alone.
Yes salvation is by grace but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. You are misunderstanding scripture.

Paul explains to those Galatians who were deceived and quickly turned away from the principle of grace through faith to a principle of law:

Gal 3:23 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under (the principle of) law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor** {to lead us} to Christ**, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. What you need to learn is that salvation is based on the Divine principle of GRACE through FAITH alone. Not the principle of law, at all: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

You are evading my question. The question is can you break all the commandments and still be saved?
You talk about grace but you have no concept of what grace is and how it works.

Salvation entails LIFE

and no law can impart life.
AND JESUS HIMSELF SAID THAT IF YOU WANT TO ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE YOU MUST KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS. What is so hard to understand about that?
It was not Paul who said that. It was JESUS HIMSELF. Why do you believe Paul more than Christ? Do you actually believe that Paul is negating what Christ said?

 

[benedictus2]

All law can do is condemn transgressors of it.

You put is so well. Condemn the TRANSGRESSORS. What about those who obey? Are they condemned too?

The life

that men are in dire need of is found only in the Son (1 Jn. 5:11-12)
Totally in agreement with you there. But the life that Jesus bequeaths to us one of grace that allows us to keep the commandments. That is the one thing you completely miss when you speak of grace. I think you have no clue what grace is all about.

In summary:

God the Father gave us the Ten Commandments not to condemn us but to show us what it is to live in true relationship with Him. Before His Son came to free us from sin, keeping these commandments is done legalistically. Christ’s coming brought about the grace with which to keep the commandments in its true spirit. That is why the first 3 corresponds to Christ commandment to love God. The last 7 refers to Christ commandment to love neighbour.

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death”

True. But not all sin. There are sins which are mortal and so the wages is death. There are sins that are venial which does not cause death.

Salvation entails life and no law (nor obedience to it) can impart it.

Well then you are calling Christ a liar. It was He who said it. Typical protestant stand.
No wonder people adhere to OSAS. If they law is no more then that means they can break it with impunity. What an easy life!

Christ was born a Jew, born under the Law. And as a Jew He fulfilled

the Law which He was born under (Gal. 4:1-4)
Exactly. HE DID NOT ABOLISH IT SO THE LAW REMAINS.

 

[SHW]

My friend, none of what you claim can occur without God granting belief:

Philippians 1:29

For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake…

I agree. God must grant the grace to believe first. But after He gives us the grace to believe, we can then choose to believe in Him and obey Him and enter into eternal life; or else we can choose to not believe Him and to not obey Him and therefore not enter eternal life. Our choice. He forces no one to be saved. Belief and obedience cannot be separated. (Mark 16:16, Acts 8:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

1 Peter 4:17-18 "Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter. 17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now
“ If the righteous one is scarcely saved,
Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

1 John 4:19

We love, because He first loved us.

That’s why you love—God initiates it, not you. That’s why no one is saved because they love God, because no one loves God, until He first loves them.

So, since we know that He first loved us and that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and that Jesus died as a ransom for all men,” **then why are all men not saved? **(1 Timothy 2:3-6)

And once He does that, a flurry of activity occurs—regeneration, repentance, belief, justification, love, the forever sealing of the believer, as God’s possession, by the Spirit.

Believers cannot fail to persevere. They are loved by God, because they are His possesion, and He wills their success. Believers can rest assured they will persevere in trial because God promises that He will never give them a trial without also giving them the ability to endure the trial:

1 Corinthians 10:13

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you WILL BE ABLE TO ENDURE IT.

He guarantees the believer’s endurance!

Then why does Paul warn the BELIEVERS that if they do these things, then they will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

(An aside: you’re deceived if you think that I, and others who believe as I do, don’t keep commandments. We do. The difference is our understanding is correct—that’s not what saves, but grace, through faith, in Christ.)

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If you are a liar when you die, then you will not be saved. It really does not get any plainer than this. You must keep the commandments (obey the gospel) in order to inherit eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

James is VERY VERY CLEAR. No one is saved by faith alone. And that is the only instance in the entire Bible when “faith” and “alone” went together.

You still need to understand the context in which he said it. However,Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; NOT as a result of works, that no one should boast."Now Paul’s statement and context is quite clear and simple. “Through faith” is stated alone.Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Another clear and bold statement. Faith again is stated alone - works is excluded. No my friend, it’s quite clear in the Scriptures that “by grace through faith,” “not as a result of works,” is how God saves and justifies the BELIEVER.

But we are also all born with Free Will.

When it comes to being born a sinner you have no free will. When it comes to dying, you have no free will.

When we sin, we transgress against the commandment.

Only if you’re under that commandment. The true believer is not under law but under grace. You cannot transgress a commandment you’re not under.Rom 4:15 “…for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.”

When we sin we choose to sin.

Col 2:13-14 “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”

1 John 3:5 "You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.Christ came not only for the forgiveness of sins, but that they be taken away.

We cannot say “I cannot help it” because we have free-will. What? You want to get away from your culpability with regards your sins? Well, well, aren’t you Adam and Even all over again, saying she made me do it and the serpent made do it. Hogwash!!

Acts 16:30-31 "…,and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"To this you answer “Hogwash!” But the jailer believed and, to the glory of Christ, he was saved.

Paul took the message of the cross to the Gentiles, not the Law.

EXACTLY!!! You just debunked your own position there. If death was already there before Moses, before the Law, then how can the Law condemn us to death when as you so plainly said we WERE ALREADY DEAD BEFORE IT CAME.

To those under the Law, the commandments condemned them judicially. That’s why the purpose of the Law was not to save, it had no power to do so. If it did Paul would have taken Judaism to the Gentiles and he wouldn’t have been persecuted by the Jewish leaders. The message of true Christianity is salvation by grace through faith. Men are in need of life, not Law. That life is in the Son, not the Law. The Son came to “take away sins” and His resurrected life is given freely to those who believe in Him. The gospel is very clear.

Since God the Father gave us the commandments after the fall, why would he give us something to condemn us when we were already condemned by Adam’s sin?

Again, are you Jewish? Were your ancestors at Mt. Sinai? The purpose of the Law was to lead those under it to Christ that they would be “justified BY FAITH” (Gal. 3:24). Can’t get any clearer than that, now can it?

That is entirely your opinion.

No, that’s entirely Scriptural.

You keep quoting Paul and I quote Christ!

Christ gave Paul his gospel and commissioned him to take it to the world. In unbelief you keep arguing against both of them.

God’s Law is related to attaining eternal life.

Gal 3:21 "For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.But no law could impart life, and the righteousness of God is given on the basis of faith alone.Phil 3:9 “…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from {the} Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”

Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”

Rom 3:21-22 "But now apart from the Law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;"Eternal life is in the Son, not Moses.

Yes salvation is by grace but NOT BY FAITH ALONE. You are misunderstanding scripture.

Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."You fail to understand the connection between grace and faith.

You are evading my question. The question is can you break all the commandments and still be saved?

You keep missing the point. Salvation isn’t based on commandment keeping. Men are in need of LIFE and no law was ever given that could impart life. A Son, however, was.

 

[ryanoneil]

But Scripture calls it “the righteousness of God” (Rom. 3:22) You’re telling me “the righteousness of God” isn’t perfect? Man has to complete it? Since when does man perfect an attribute of God? Is man greater than God? Is God subject to man?

Both of us know the righteousness of God is perfect (Deut 32:4). Both of us know that Jesus fullfilled all righteousness (Mat 3:15; Rom 3:21-26). Both of us know that righteousness is a gift (Rom 5:17).

What we have is a fundamental difference in our understanding of justification and sanctification and their relationship. We are using the same terms but applying different meaning to them.

I don’t even know where to start?

 

[SHW]

Both of us know the righteousness of God is perfect (Deut 32:4). Both of us know that Jesus fullfilled all righteousness (Mat 3:15; Rom 3:21-26). Both of us know that righteousness is a gift (Rom 5:17).

What we have is a fundamental difference in our understanding of justification and sanctification and their relationship. We are using the same terms but applying different meaning to them.

I don’t even know where to start?

Hi Ryan,

We all (Catholics and Protestants) agree that our justification is given to us by a free gift of grace through faith. Jesus saves us. We did no works in order to merit (earn) this free gift.

To Catholics, this means that we believe that Jesus will redeem us and save us and justify us and so we are baptized in obedience to this belief in order to actually receive this redemption/salvation/justification. (Acts 10:48, Matthew 28:19) Catholics believe that Baptism is their initial justification.

Many Protestants believe that once you receive this free gift of grace, whether through Baptism as some believe, or by simply accepting Jesus as your Savior as others believe; they believe that their justification/salvation/redemption cannot be lost no matter what they do.

Catholics believe that this free initial justification gives us the promise of hope of eternal life (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Titus 1:1-2) and that our justification can be lost if we sin mortal sins of either commission or of omission. (Ephesians 5:5-7, 1 Timothy 5:8)

Hebrews 10:23 “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.”

Catholics believe that we must actually hold fast (continue in) the doctrine (gospel of Jesus Christ) without wavering (without falling away) and if we do this until we die, then we will receive the crown of eternal life which is promised to those who love Jesus.

After we prove our genuine faith by loving God [keeping (obeying) God’s commandments: John 14:21] and producing good fruits (Acts 10:34-35), until our deaths, then we receive the crown of eternal life after our deaths.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Catholics believe that we must actually obey the gospel of Christ (the NT teachings, both oral and written) in order to avoid hell and inherit eternal life.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

These are the differences between us. I don’t think that Moondweller or Howie01 are able to comprehend that since their interpretations of certain Scriptures contradict with other Scriptures, then they are not understanding the correct interpretations.

There can be no contradictions in truth or else it is not truth.

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

So, since we know that He first loved us and that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, and that Jesus died as a ransom for all men,” then why are all men not saved? (1 Timothy 2:3-6)

I think I’ve dealt with this verse somewhere on the thread, but basically, because it’s not His purpose to save all men.

SHW:

Then why does Paul warn the BELIEVERS that if they do these things, then they will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Paul doesn’t phrase it as a conditional “if.” You better read it again, and this time, read the larger context.

SHW:

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

If you are a liar when you die, then you will not be saved. It really does not get any plainer than this.

That’s pretty clear.

SHW:

You must keep the commandments (obey the gospel) in order to inherit eternal life.

Now “keeping the commandments” is “obeying the gospel.” You equivocate a great deal.

SHW:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

I’ve already corrected you on your “out of context” use of that passage.