What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

My friend, you’re still proof-texting, and therefore, not closely examining the text, and, what about the rest of the passage, the rest of the context?

Look at the list of the commandments in v18. In that list are 5 out of the 6 commandments of the second table of the Decalogue. All of them deal with human relationships. The last commandment is from Lev 19:18, ”You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Clearly the man didn’t keep that commandment, as he was sorrowful at having to sell what he had to give to the poor. IOW, he wasn’t loving his neighbor as himself. He wasn’t sorrowful over keeping all of his wealth for himself, that was a good thing for him, but he was sorrowful because he was told, in order to obtain eternal life, he must sell all of his wealth, and give it to the poor, and that’s not to be a sorrowful task, but a task done with the same love one has for himself (v 18). Therefore, he didn’t keep that commandment (remember earlier in Matthew, ch 5, the standard for law-keeping is perfection 5:48, and no one can love with the perfection of God), he lied when he said he kept the commandments Jesus listed.

Jesus did not say that the rich young man lied. You assume that. It was the rich young man who asked if he could do something more. Only then did Jesus tell him that if he wanted to be perfect, then he should sell all he had and follow Him. The rich young man did not take up Jesus’ challenge. He asked for it but did not follow through when he found out the cost.

Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law. He came to fulfill it. He is the fulfillment of it. His commandments in the NT are His New Covenant Laws. They are never done away with. If we wish to enter eternal life, then we must do as Jesus states: “But if you want to enter (eternal) life, keep the commandments.”

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

Continue in the context. In v24, Jesus says, ““Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

How do the disciples respond? v25:When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”Why were they astonished?

Because Jesus’ illustration is telling them that salvation by human effort is impossible. The Jews believed that wealth was a great blessing by God on the one who possessed the wealth. Wealth indicated great favor in God’s sight, and the Jews believed a man could purchase salvation by alms-giving (as recorded in the Talmud). So the rich had more money to give, and so could make more sacrifices and offerings, thus assuring their salvation.

The disciples’ understood what Jesus meant (v25)—Man, who then can be saved, when even the rich cannot buy salvation?

Salvation cannot be purchased, period. As this passage illustrates, salvation has always been by grace, through faith, and not by merit of any kind (cf Eph 2:8; Rom 4:2-5).

The apostles were astonished at this new teaching because they always had believed that the OT patriarchs were wealthy because of their righteousness with God and that they would also enter eternal life because of this. God rewarded them with wealth when they were righteous. If they sinned, then they repented of their sin and became righteous again even though they had to pay the penalty for their sins (such as David’s son dying because of David’s sin with Bathsheba). If they did not repent of their sins, then they lost their wealth.

This Scripture passage is not about purchasing salvation. If you have two tunics, give one to someone who has none. It is about loving your neighbor as yourself. In other words, if you were without clothing, you would purchase some for yourself. You need to do likewise for those who are in need if you have the means to do so. A rich man keeps too much for himself and this is why he is not saved. He has not loved his brother. He loves money.

1 Timothy 6:10 “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

If you stray from the faith, then you are no longer saved/justified.

1 John 4:21 “And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”

Rich persons do not inherit eternal life because their god is money. Money is an idol. Since they do not produce good fruits with their wealth, they are not saved.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Alms giving is pleasing to God.

Luke 12:33 “Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.”

Acts 10:1-4 “There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller,

I have no problem agreeing with those Scripture verses.

Sure you do. Your twisted interpretation of them tells me you do.

I believe them.

No you don’t. You need to understand them before you can believe them.

Jesus justifies us through Baptism as a free gift of grace which makes us righteous and gives us abundant graces.

That’s not what those Scriptures say. There’s no mention of baptism, original sin, that Jesus Himself justifies anyone, or the wording, “abundance of graces.” You believe the tradition you read INTO those verses, not what they actually say.

Jesus makes us right with God through Baptism. He has saved us. Original Sin is no longer on our souls and all personal sins on our souls have been washed away. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

The word “original” is not found in 1 Cor. 6:11.1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."For this reason at the beginning of his Epistle Paul addresses them as "saints."1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their {Lord} and ours:

However, we will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. How do we reign in life through Jesus Christ?

By having died to sin with Him and raised to new life in Him. This is thoroughly covered in the following chapters (Rom. 6-7).

We must keep His commandments in order to abide (remain) in Him. If we sin, then we no longer abide in Him.

Then you agree with Benedictus2 that the true purpose of Christ’s coming was to extend the Law to everyone, that righteousness is based on the principle of law, and Christ died needlessly.

We are judged by works on Judgment Day as proof of our faith.

But Paul says that the works of the believer, not the believer himself, are appraised at the judgment seat of Christ. And the believer is rewarded, or not, according to the value of his works (see 1 Cor. 3:6-10). Salvation is called a “gift” in Scripture, never a reward.

We are not judged by faith alone on Judgment Day.

There is no “Judgment Day” for those who are in Christ Jesus. If you truly understood the Scriptures you’d know this. Jesus Himself said:John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."That “life” the believer has passed into is Christ’s resurrected life. That’s why it’s “eternal.” Eternal means everlasting. As everlasting as the resurrected Christ Himself in Whom the true believer now is.

No, my friend, you have a great problem agreeing with those Scriptures. You’re still trying to be saved by the principle of law. But Scripture says:Rom 3:19-24 “Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through law {comes} the knowledge of sin (not salvation). But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,** even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe**; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace (through baptism and subsequent sinlessness? NO!) through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;” (the cross)

Unless you abide (remain) in Christ until death (endure to the end), you will not inherit eternal life.

Unless you believe you’ll die in your sins. Endurance is useless if you haven’t believed. You’ve never believed if you’re trying to be justified by the principle of law. No law could ever impart life, and life, my friend, is what you need.1 John 5:10-11 "*The one who **believes *in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.The purpose of law was to give knowledge of sin and in turn lead the sinner to Christ (God’s sin-bearer), so that he would be “justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). That’s what you have not understood in the Scriptures.

 

[ryanoneil]

No. Only those who believe to life.

What does that mean?

Some belief is manufactured by man and is not a gift from God?

Perseverance is part and parcel of salvation (cf Jn 10:27-28; Rom 8:29-30, 1 Pet 1:3-9).

I agree, but we are approaching the topic from different understandings. I understand persevering as remaining in saved state and not persevering as losing our saved state.

Is it safe to say that you think not persevering is an indication that you were not saved in the first place?

Ryan, I can argue only the last one was justified, or, I can argue all but the first one were justified.

Which argument would you prefer?

It would have to be one or the other, right?

None but the last was saved in the first place or all but the first are saved and there salvation cannot be lost?

Of course there is a third option that we disagree on.

 

[SHW]

That’s not what those Scriptures say. There’s no mention of baptism, original sin, that Jesus Himself justifies anyone, or the wording, “abundance of graces.” You believe the tradition you read INTO those verses, not what they actually say.

Moondweller,

You have no clue since you rely on “Scripture Alone” and your own interpretation of Scripture. However, there is no such thing as Scripture Alone. The Gospel of Jesus was handed down first orally and then some of it was written down. Scripture Alone is not scriptural. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Scripture Alone is the sole truth. Instead, it states that the Church is the support and foundation of the truth. It does state that Scripture is helpful for teaching, etc, but for over 300 years, the Church taught mostly orally. And when the Bible Canon was finally decided, Bibles were still scarce until the invention of the printing press.

Regarding: Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

The Church has taught for 2000 years what I posted in my previous post to you. Just because you do not believe it does not make it false. Who should I believe? The Church who has the authority of Jesus Himself (Luke 10:16) or persons named Moondweller and Howie01 who pick up a Bible and then thinks that he or she can interpret infallibly? I choose the Church. She is the support and foundation of the Truth:

1 Timothy 3:15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

The Church has safeguarded Jesus’ doctrine through Tradition (both oral and written). All of it has been passed down by successors of the first Apostles. It is a living Church and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to it and He will guide it until Jesus returns. (Matthew 28:19-20, John 16:6-8, John 14:26)

John 20:30 “And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.”

John 21:25 “And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.”

Paul exhorts everyone to hold fast to all of the traditions that were given them, both oral and written.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”

You are not walking according to the tradition which the Apostles passed down but you can change that if you want to. It is called free will choice.

You are untaught by His Church and therefore you are unstable in Christian doctrine:

2 Peter 3:15-17 “our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;”

2 Peter 1:20 “knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation”

So, I suggest that if you truly want to obey the Gospel of Jesus, that you meditate on the following Scripture verse and then find out how to obey it:

John 6:53 “Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.”

I gave this challenge to Howie01 but he declined: Read the Early Church Fathers.

Early Church Fathers:
http://newadvent.org/fathers/index.html

The Catholic Church’s teachings on faith and morals have not changed in 2000 years.
SHW

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

What does that mean?

Some belief is manufactured by man and is not a gift from God?

Right, salvation is life, and the gift of God, and not just a “head knowledge.”

ryanoneil:

I agree, but we are approaching the topic from different understandings. I understand persevering as remaining in saved state and not persevering as losing our saved state.

Is it safe to say that you think not persevering is an indication that you were not saved in the first place?

Yes, the one who walks away, fully and finally walks away, never had faith to begin with, at least, he didn’t have faith in Christ, but in something else, something other than Christ, or something in addition to Christ.

As I stated on another thread, using Col 1:21-23 as an illustration:Understand that the false professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith. He will, at some point, fall away (Mt 13:20-22); however, the truly professing person will persevere until the final aspect of his salvation rests upon Christ’s return for him (Mt 24:13; cf Jn 14:2-3).

Moving on to the passage cited, Col 1:21-23, the inference may be drawn, “if we do not continue in the faith, we will lose our salvation.”

But, we have not been saved, if we don’t continue in the faith. The fact that HE has now reconciled YOU to God (v 22, Gk aorist tense), is/will be manifest by YOUR continuing in the faith, as it’s HIM who is doing the work of saving YOU.Note: this stated as well, earlier in the chapter:Colossians 1:13For HE delivered US from the domain of darkness, and HE] transferred US to the kingdom of His beloved Son…”Delivered” in the sense of delivering us “to Himself,” and then placing us in His kingdom—He’s done that, not me, and He doesn’t rescind that. God is not a “welsher.”

ryanoneil:

It would have to be one or the other, right?

None but the last was saved in the first place or all but the first are saved and there salvation cannot be lost?

Of course there is a third option that we disagree on.

Scripture cites a man’s position before God in one of two ways. 1) He is justified by God. 2) He is not justified by God.

There is no “third” option.

As I said above (in the indented section), it’s on the basis of “inference” only, that you believe in a third position. We have no statement in scripture stating one can lose justification, or that God rescinds justification.

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

Jesus did not say that the rich young man lied. You assume that.

A reasonable assumption. The man claimed to be sinless. No one is sinless, except Christ; therefore, the man is self-deceived with respect to his claim to be sinless (1 Jn 1:8).

SHW:

It was the rich young man who asked if he could do something more.

He didn’t ask if he could do something more. He asked, ”what am I still lacking?” There’s quite a difference between his question, and the question you attribute to him.
SWH:

Only then did Jesus tell him that if he wanted to be perfect, then he should sell all he had and follow Him. The rich young man did not take up Jesus’ challenge. He asked for it but did not follow through when he found out the cost.

No, when Christ told him what he was lacking, he was filled with sorrow. We’re not told whether or not he “followed through.”

SHW:

The apostles were astonished at this new teaching because they always had believed that the OT patriarchs were wealthy because of their righteousness with God and that they would also enter eternal life because of this. God rewarded them with wealth when they were righteous.

That’s what I said, with a few added SHWisms, and flourishes.

SHW:

If they sinned, then they repented of their sin and became righteous again even though they had to pay the penalty for their sins (such as David’s son dying because of David’s sin with Bathsheba). If they did not repent of their sins, then they lost their wealth.

To be consistent with Catholic soteriology in the parallel you present, each time they sinned, they would have lost their wealth, and would had to have regained their wealth by doing works of “penance.”

SHW:

This Scripture passage is not about purchasing salvation.

It seems you’re referring to my statement concerning Christ’s illustration? If so, I never said the passage was about purchasing salvation, but that Christ used as an illustration the Jewish belief that salvation could be gained by alms-giving, viz., to the poor, as you believe, but Christ put the strong kibosh on that false idea/practice for good. :yup:

SHW:

Rich persons do not inherit eternal life because their god is money.

That’s a logically flawed and false statement.

Unbelief is the reason for not inheriting eternal life.

Jesus says it’s hard for the rich to enter heaven, and that statement needs to be understood in the context in which it was spoken.

SHW:

Money is an idol.

Money is not an idol. There’s nothing wrong or evil about money. God does not condemn wealth because He’s the giver of wealth.

What is said negatively of money is the love of it, is a root of evil.

SHW:

Since they do not produce good fruits with their wealth, they are not saved.

:doh2:

SHW:

Alms giving is pleasing to God.

Amen.

 

[moondweller]

You have no clue since you rely on “Scripture Alone” and your own interpretation of Scripture.

ISTM you’re doing the same.

However, there is no such thing as Scripture Alone. The Gospel (good news) of Jesus was handed down first orally and then some of it was written down.

It’s true that the gospel of Christ was first delivered orally - and it still is. But the teachings (doctrines) of the Apostles were preserved for subsequent generations in “God-breathed” (theopneustos), Holy Writ. Before the last Apostle died ALL the N.T. Scriptures were written and quickly copied and distributed among the churches.

Scripture Alone is not scriptural.

Depends what you mean by that. When it comes to Divine preservation of God’s Word, all we have is the Scriptures. Since Moses it’s been the only way God preserved His word in the world. And the amazing thing is since Moses all He’s ever used to write them were Jews - never Gentiles (“tradition” says Luke was a Gentile but there’s absolutely no proof of that).

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Scripture Alone is the sole truth.

True. But in the Scriptures alone is it recorded the words of Jesus saying:John 14:6 "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.The Scriptures alone testify to Christ being the Truth. The Scriptures alone testify to the truth that He Himself is the life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. “But through Me” implies Him alone, and that “by faith.” And the Scriptures themselves testify to the fact that they’re theopneustos (God-breathed). No other source is given, by the Scriptures, to possess theopneustos status. The Scriptures alone have it.

Instead, it states that the Church is the support and foundation of the truth.

Why are you appealing to the Scriptures if you don’t believe the full truth was recorded in them? Maybe its the church and Mohammad? The church and the prophet Joseph Smith. Maybe it’s the church and a future visit from alien beings. You don’t know because for you the Scriptures contain only a partial amount of the truth. There might have been some secrets whispered down verbally that only a few know and they’re not ready to tell. Nevertheless, it says the church is the “pillar and support OF the truth,” not that the church IS the truth. Scripture gives that only to Christ.

And in context Paul was not talking about the church at Rome, the Vatican, or its “Magesterium,” but those baptized into body of Christ by the Holy Spirit since Pentecost (1 Cor. 12:13.

It does state that Scripture is helpful for teaching, etc, but for over 300 years, the Church taught mostly orally.

What a silly, naive statement. Early church writers quoted from the Scriptures profusely.

And when the Bible Canon was finally decided, Bibles were still scarce until the invention of the printing press.

But the Scriptures were always with us. “Bibles” were scarce only because the Scriptures were kept from the laymen. In fact, many who became priests entered the profession ignorant of the Scriptures and remained that way throughout their profession. Catholics like John Wycliffe, who believed the Scriptures should be read by all the elect and prepared a translation of the Scriptures into English, were persecuted. In fact Wycliffe’s remains were exhumed 44 years after his death, burned and scattered on the waters of the River Swift.

The truth is, the ancient church copied and distributed the Scriptures. It was the later church (east and west) that concealed them and developed the doctrine of “oral tradition” instead.

The Church has taught for 2000 years what I posted in my previous post to you. Just because you do not believe it does not make it false.

Just because you say what you interpret was the way it was taught for 2000 years doesn’t make it true. That may have worked when most men were Scripturally ignorant, but now we have the original, theopneustos source. Men now have in their possession what was taught and preserved by the original twelve, that which was taught directly to them by the resurrected Christ. Guess what, we don’t even believe that the world is flat anymore.

The Church has safeguarded Jesus’ doctrine through Tradition (both oral and written). All of it has been passed down by successors of the first Apostles.

That certainly is what you’re told. Yet the early writers quoted the Scriptures and used them as their authority. How is that?

Paul exhorts everyone to hold fast to all of the traditions that were given them, both oral and written.

He wasn’t at all implying they were different. That’s a silly interpretation.

I gave this challenge to Howie01 but he declined: Read the Early Church Fathers.

Why? Are you claiming those writing to be theopneustos? And isn’t it an oxymoron to tell me to “read” “oral” tradition?

 

[benedictus2]

John 14:16
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you FOREVER
Please explain to me how that verse is not part of revelation, and is only my opinion?

I was not saying that John 14:16 was not part of reveleation and only your opinion. Your interpretation of it is.

And the proof for that is found where, in Scripture?

Scripture says God is love.

So how does that explain my point?

Simple. Pre-destination by definition means that God has destined some for salvation even before they were born. If only those who have been pre-destined are the only ones who will be saved, that means God has already pre-destined other to damnation. If that is so that makes Him an evil God, one who creates man just so He can send them to eternal torture. That god is not a God who is love.

So now we have two people for whom Christ didn’t die because they were already righteous—Abraham, and the rich young ruler. Anyone else?

And how did you get that from my post? Did I say that Abraham did not need a saviour? You ought to read my posts better.

Also, how do you square your very unorthodox belief with this statement by Paul:

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in [God] who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
You see, what you state in your belief is an impossibility—God doesn’t justify the GODLY, but only the UNGODLY.

I totally agree. God justifies the ungodly. But how does God do that? By making the ungodly, GODLY. One is not merely declared JUST, one is actually MADE JUST.
As one cute slogan goes: Destroy your enemies. Make them your friends.

A first installment? How contemporary. However, what it meant at that time is a pledge for the final redemption. The Spirit is given “into the day of redemption’ (Eph 4:30).

ISTM, you think of God as a “welsher?” Why is that?

Read my post again. How do you come up with a God who is a welsher from my post? Why would God be a welsher if salvation is a process?

Because it has nothing to do with the next verse.

Oh Howie, how could a previous verse not have anything to do with the next verse?
No wonder you come up with all sorts of ridiculous exegesis. You insist on chopping up the Word of God.

So here again, you proclaim the Spirit is given on the precondition that one has already kept, and continues to keep the Lord’s commandments.

Therefore, we see again, Catholic theology teaches that God doesn’t justify the UNGODLY, and give them the Spirit; rather, God justifies those who already love Christ, and, who have kept, and continue to keep all of His commandments.

Have a look at the apostles? Did they follow Christ before or after Pentecost?

The promise of the Paraclete was about Pentecost. But even before Pentecost they were able to love Christ albeit imperfectly. If you have a problem with the phrasing of that verse then you should take it up with John.

Notice too that the promise of the Paraclete is not so much as to enable them to keep the commandments but to guide them into Truth.

(I refer you again to the warning above.)

Sorry but your warnings don’t carry weight with me. You are a mere human who do not speak for Christ.

How about because that is not my view, un-orthodox or otherwise?

Why does that one need a Savior, according to you?

Well in this discussion with you I have not mentioned why one needs a saviour but to answer your question, in a nutshell, because we are sinners and on the way to damnation

For what, and for whom did Christ die, according to you?

First off there is no “for what”, only a “for whom”. US.

 

[ryanoneil]

Right, salvation is life, and the gift of God, and not just a “head knowledge.”

Yes, the one who walks away, fully and finally walks away, never had faith to begin with, at least, he didn’t have faith in Christ, but in something else, something other than Christ, or something in addition to Christ.

We believe one can lose their faith (reject it).

As I stated on another thread, using Col 1:21-23 as an illustration:Understand that the false professing person will not continue indefinitely in his false professed faith. He will, at some point, fall away (Mt 13:20-22); however, the truly professing person will persevere until the final aspect of his salvation rests upon Christ’s return for him (Mt 24:13; cf Jn 14:2-3).

Moving on to the passage cited, Col 1:21-23, the inference may be drawn, “if we do not continue in the faith, we will lose our salvation.”

But, we have not been saved, if we don’t continue in the faith. The fact that HE has now reconciled YOU to God (v 22, Gk aorist tense), is/will be manifest by YOUR continuing in the faith, as it’s HIM who is doing the work of saving YOU.Note: this stated as well, earlier in the chapter:Colossians 1:13For HE delivered US from the domain of darkness, and HE] transferred US to the kingdom of His beloved Son…”Delivered” in the sense of delivering us “to Himself,” and then placing us in His kingdom—He’s done that, not me, and He doesn’t rescind that. God is not a “welsher.”

Scripture cites a man’s position before God in one of two ways. 1) He is justified by God. 2) He is not justified by God.

There is no “third” option.

As I said above (in the indented section), it’s on the basis of “inference” only, that you believe in a third position. We have no statement in scripture stating one can lose justification, or that God rescinds justification.

There are just as many "inferences in your position, but I don’t feel like arguing point by point right now.

I asked this to get further clarification on this line of questioning. Are you absolutely certain that your faith is a “saving faith”? Can you predict the future? Do you even know if salvation is yours to begin with?

You’re very first statement “one who walks away, fully and finally walks away, never had faith to begin with” makes my point. You really don’t know if your saved until the end of your life. At any point you could walk away and people would say “He was never saved to begin with.” You really have no assurance this statement is true about you in particular.

I don’t need to predict the future, Ryan, I know the past. Justification is an event that is spoken of in the Gr aorist tense—an action, completed in the past. I believed, and when I believed, I was justified, and that justification is sure; it’s the mingling of justification and sanctification that leads to the belief that justification can be lost; that belief comes about by inferences taken from scripture, that are processed in light of the synonymous understanding of justification and sanctification.

Again, my sanctification can falter, but my justification is sure.

Now, I’m not saying this to try and shake faith or say I gotcha. I admire your faith (and your trust in the Lord is better than alot of people I know), but according your belief system you have no assurance you are saved in the first place, Since the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end.

We disagree on the particulars of our belief systems, but what I’ve been trying to say the whole time is: we Catholics have more assurance that you do, in our system. We know we are saved in the first place, and know that we remain saved as long as we endure to the end. You don’t even know if you are saved until the end.

Peace

 

[Howie01]

benedictus2:

I was not saying that John 14:16 was not part of reveleation and only your opinion. Your interpretation of it is.

**John 14:16“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever…****John 7:39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.**Everyone who is sealed by the Spirit is sealed by the Spirit forever.

benedictus2:

Scripture says God is love.

So how does that explain my point?

Simple. Pre-destination by definition means that God has destined some for salvation even before they were born. If only those who have been pre-destined are the only ones who will be saved, that means God has already pre-destined other to damnation. If that is so that makes Him an evil God, one who creates man just so He can send them to eternal torture. That god is not a God who is love.

“The Catholic Church affirms predestination dogmaas a de fide (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith.”

benedictus2:

And how did you get that from my post? Did I say that Abraham did not need a saviour? You ought to read my posts better.

As I understood you? Yes, you did say Abraham didn’t need a savior, not in those words, but in these:

Abraham was declared righteous not by mere believing but by actually being righteous.

What is that saying, if not that God justified Abraham on the basis of both Abraham’s faith, and Abraham’s own righteousness?

Perhaps you should more carefully phrase your thoughts.

benedictus2:

I totally agree. God justifies the ungodly. But how does God do that? By making the ungodly, GODLY. One is not merely declared JUST, one is actually MADE JUST.

That’s not what the grammar says. The grammar is judicial in thought and intent: faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. There’s nothing said about “making” Abraham righteous. Sanctification is the means by which one becomes practically righteous, and that is a process. The even of justification occurs once, and one is never anymore justified before God than any other, and one never becomes anymore justified before God than when he first believed because it’s the righteousness of Christ that is “credited to” that ones account, and one can be accounted no more righteousness than the perfect righteousness of Christ.

benedictus2:

Read my post again. How do you come up with a God who is a welsher from my post?

Because you believe that God will break His promises to those He justifies, and either take away from them the righteousness He’s credited to them, or, that He will allow them to stumble in such a way that they lose the gift of salvation with which He gifted them.

benedictus2:

Why would God be a welsher if salvation is a process?

Whether or not salvation is a process is irrelevant as to whether or not one is a welsher. What makes one a welsher is taking back what one has given to another. God’s gift to those who believe in His Son is eternal life, and He promises to protect that which He’s given, and the one to whom He’s given it from ever losing it (1 Pet 1:3-5).

God’s eternal covenant concerning salvation is that it is by grace, through faith, in God (Gen 15:6 cf Gal 3:1-29; Dt 30:6; Jn 1:12-13; etc.), no one is justified by works. Justification is an irrevocable one-time event; sanctification is the process; sanctification can be impeded; justification is forever.

benedictus2:

Oh Howie, how could a previous verse not have anything to do with the next verse?

No wonder you come up with all sorts of ridiculous exegesis. You insist on chopping up the Word

Forgive my faulty wording. V15 did not apply to the point I made from v16.

benedictus2:

Have a look at the apostles? Did they follow Christ before or after Pentecost?

Both.

benedictus2:

The promise of the Paraclete was about Pentecost. But even before Pentecost they were able to love Christ albeit imperfectly. If you have a problem with the phrasing of that verse then you should take it up with John.

:doh2:

benedictus2:

Notice too that the promise of the Paraclete is not so much as to enable them to keep the commandments but to guide them into Truth.

Those promises are given to all who believe (Jn 7:39; Eph 1:13ff; Eph 4:30; 1 Jn 2:20-21, 25-27; Rom 8:16).

benedictus2:

Sorry but your warnings don’t carry weight with me.

I know.

 

[SHW]

A reasonable assumption. The man claimed to be sinless. No one is sinless, except Christ; therefore, the man is self-deceived with respect to his claim to be sinless (1 Jn 1:8).

He didn’t ask if he could do something more. He asked, ”what am I still lacking?” There’s quite a difference between his question, and the question you attribute to him.

No, when Christ told him what he was lacking, he was filled with sorrow. We’re not told whether or not he “followed through.”

That’s what I said, with a few added SHWisms, and flourishes.

He did not claim to be sinless. He claimed to have kept all of the commandments that Jesus listed. Jesus did not dispute his claim. Then he wanted to know if there was something more that he should do (what he was still lacking) in order to better please God. Jesus already knew before He told the rich young man what he was lacking, that he would not follow through with His command, because He is God. The whole point was that in Jesus’ NT gospel, it is very difficult for a rich man to enter eternal life because he does not use his wealth to help other people. He selfishly keeps it for Himself. The Church is one body of many members and each person does his/her part and all share the blessings that they received for the good of the entire body.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 “Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy. 18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.”

A rich person entering eternal life (or anyone else) depends on whether he has built a good foundation of good works which will approve them for eternal life after they die. You do not enter eternal life unless you have done good works.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures** temptation**; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

What is the rich man’s temptation? It is to hoard the money for himself. It is to use the money for himself. If he does not share his wealth with those who need his assistance, then he is not approved for eternal life and he does not receive the crown of eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:9 “But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.”

James 1:9-11 “Let the lowly brother glory in his exaltation, 10 but the rich in his humiliation, because as a flower of the field he will pass away. 11 For no sooner has the sun risen with a burning heat than it withers the grass; its flower falls, and its beautiful appearance perishes. So the rich man also will fade away in his pursuits.”

James 2:6 “But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?”

James 5:1-4 “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. 4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth”

Revelation 3:17 “Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked—”

Scripture claims that it is possible to keep His commandments.

1 John 5:3 “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

To be consistent with Catholic soteriology in the parallel you present, each time they sinned, they would have lost their wealth, and would had to have regained their wealth by doing works of “penance.”

God doesn’t just “zap” you when you sin and take everything away immediately. He works in His own timing. He desires that we return to Him. He takes no pleasure in chastising us.

2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

Unbelief is the reason for not inheriting eternal life.

Not obeying the command to be baptized is also reason for not inheriting eternal life. A person becomes a Christian, a disciple of Christ when he is baptized.

1 Corinthians 12:11-13 “For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13** For by one Spirit** we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”

Your understanding of the necessity of Baptism is incorrect.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Jesus says it’s hard for the rich to enter heaven, and that statement needs to be understood in the context in which it was spoken.

Money is not an idol. There’s nothing wrong or evil about money. God does not condemn wealth because He’s the giver of wealth.

What is said negatively of money is the love of it, is a root of evil.

It is the “love” of money which can make it into an idol. Most rich people love money and things more than they love God. This makes money an idol. God is a jealous God. He allows no worship of anything or anyone other than Himself. Also, in order to actually love God, you also have to love your brother and this means helping him.

1 John 3:10 “In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.”

1 John 3:17-18 “But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.”

1 John 4:21 “And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.”

Howie, if you would obey all the Scriptures, then you would also be obeying the oral teachings of the Church which we are also commanded to obey and then you would not be “untaught” and “unstable” with your incorrect interpretation of Scripture. (2 Peter 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20) Since you are not interested in learning the whole truth, then it is rather pointless for us to continue this discussion, would you not agree?

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

ryanoneil:

We believe one can lose their faith (reject it).

I know, and many non-Catholics believe the same.

ryanoneil:

There are just as many "inferences in your position, but I don’t feel like arguing point by point right now.

OK.

ryanoneil:

I asked this to get further clarification on this line of questioning. Are you absolutely certain that your faith is a “saving faith”? Can you predict the future? Do you even know if salvation is yours to begin with?

You’re very first statement “one who walks away, fully and finally walks away, never had faith to begin with” makes my point. You really don’t know if your saved until the end of your life. At any point you could walk away and people would say “He was never saved to begin with.” You really have no assurance this statement is [sic] true about you in particular.

Unfortunately for Catholics, your Church has not developed any meaningful doctrine of “regeneration,” what it means, and the blessings it brings. Neither do I find any notable teaching on “union with Christ,” and the individual, but only corporate union, through the church. On that basis, it’s no wonder you reject eternal security because IMO, you have an incomplete understanding of those important things—regeneration and union with Christ—because those who teach you have an incomplete understanding of them, ISTM.

That’s a shame.

However, Ryan, back to your statement:

You’re very first statement “one who walks away, fully and finally walks away, never had faith to begin with” makes my point. You really don’t know if your saved until the end of your life. At any point you could walk away and people would say “He was never saved to begin with.” You really have no assurance this statement is [sic] true about you in particular.

Having the advantage of a clearly articulated doctrine of regeneration and union with Christ, I do know.

I have as much uncertainty about my future glorious glorification, as I have about my past unbelievably reprobated reprobation—both are equally certain.

ryanoneil:

Now, I’m not saying this to try and shake faith or say I gotcha. I admire your faith (and your trust in the Lord is better than alot of people I know), but according your belief system you have no assurance you are saved in the first place, Since the demonstration of whether or not one is saved is whether or not the person “endures to the end.

That’s one demonstration, Ryan. My life, of which you know little, is the proof.

This is a true saying: there is none righteous, not even one (cf Rom 3:10-18). Until that truth is fully revealed to you, and fully embraced by you, you’ll remain where you are, IMO.

ryanoneil:

Catholics have more assurance that you do, in our system.

In your system? What does that mean?

Are you a cradle Catholic, or a convert?

 

[SHW]

But the teachings (doctrines) of the Apostles were preserved for subsequent generations in “God-breathed” (theopneustos), Holy Writ. Before the last Apostle died ALL the N.T. Scriptures were written and quickly copied and distributed among the churches…The Scriptures alone testify to Christ being the Truth. The Scriptures alone testify to the truth that He Himself is the life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. “But through Me” implies Him alone, and that “by faith.” And the Scriptures themselves testify to the fact that they’re theopneustos (God-breathed). No other source is given, by the Scriptures, to possess theopneustos status. The Scriptures alone have it.

Jesus never told them to write it all down. He told them to go out and “teach.” Scripture is but part of their teaching. Their oral teaching was a bigger part of their teaching than Scripture. Epistles were written to complement oral teaching, not replace it.

Titus 1:1-3 “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;”

1 Thessalonians 4:10-11 “But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more; 11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,”

2 Thessalonians 3:4 “And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.”

1 Corinthians 11:2 “Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.”

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

2 Corinthians 11:10-15 “As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows! 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”

Acts 20:28-32 “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. 32 “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.”

1 Peter 5:1-3 “The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.”

Hebrews 13:24 “Greet all those who rule over you, and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.”

Scripture alone is not Scriptural. The Church is a hierarchy and it alone preserves both the oral and written traditions of the Church.

There is not much point in continuing this discussion. If you ever read the Early Church Fathers, let me know.

Pax,
SHW

 

[distracted]

What does it mean to abide “in Christ?”

1 John 3:6 “Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.”

1 John 2:3-5 “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.”

Pax,
SHW

Boy if 1 Jn 3;6 isn’t Death to OSAS i don’t know what the heck is…

*in any case, my answer to your first question is:

For me, it is spending time with Jesus @ the Blessed Sacrament (Real Presence)… *

Jesus is the Word Incarnate… and He shows us the Truth when we are There… (if we are willing to let go of the cobwebs… etc…).

and it really is true that “the truth hurts”… :banghead:

but hey, we’re going to hurt in the next life anyway… Purgatory (the majority of us)…

may as well get a head start…

 

[Howie01]

SHW:

He did not claim to be sinless.

Right. I’m always in awe of the Catholic overlooking of sin because of their misconception of sin.

These sins are known as “respectable sins.”

SHW:

The whole point was that in Jesus’ NT gospel, it is very difficult for a rich man to enter eternal life because he does not use his wealth to help other people. He selfishly keeps it for Himself.

And outside of Jesus’ NT Gospel it’s easy for a rich man to enter eternal life?

SHW:

The Church is one body of many members and each person does his/her part and all share the blessings that they received for the good of the entire body.

Correct.

SHW:

A rich person entering eternal life (or anyone else) depends on whether he has built a good foundation of good works which will approve them for eternal life after they die. You do not enter eternal life unless you have done good works.

Yeah, who needs grace and faith? Just do good works.

SHW:

What is the rich man’s temptation? It is to hoard the money for himself. It is to use the money for himself. If he does not share his wealth with those who need his assistance, then he is not approved for eternal life and he does not receive the crown of eternal life.

That then, is not his temptation, but his sin.

SHW:

Scripture claims that it is possible to keep His commandments.

The believer is granted everything pertaining to life and godliness. :yup:

SHW:

God doesn’t just “zap” you when you sin and take everything away immediately. He works in His own timing. He desires that we return to Him. He takes no pleasure in chastising us.

Death in mortal sin “zaps” away eternal life.

SHW:

Not obeying the command to be baptized is also reason for not inheriting eternal life. A person becomes a Christian, a disciple of Christ when he is baptized.

And where is that found: by grace you have been saved through baptism?

SHW:

It is the “love” of money which can make it into an idol.

As stated in the verse I quoted. :tiphat:

SHW:

Howie, if you would obey all the Scriptures, then you would also be obeying the oral teachings of the Church which we are also commanded to obey and then you would not be “untaught” and “unstable” with your incorrect interpretation of Scripture.

Do you mean the unwritten and atheopneustos oral teachings?

SHW:

Since you are not interested in learning the whole truth, then it is rather pointless for us to continue this discussion, would you not agree?

I would not.

 

[SHW]

I would not.

Then we will agree to disagree.

The Church is a hierarchy with the Pope and other Bishops as its leaders just as the angels are in a hierarchy in heaven with Jesus in the top leadership position and these facts cannot be explained away by “Scripture Alone” enthusiasts. We are commanded to obey the Church or else be cast out as “tax collectors” and “heathens.”

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you (Church) hears Me, he who rejects you (Church) rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

2 Timothy 2:2 “And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” Timothy is a bishop. (1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6) Who is your bishop? You would be able to understand this “apostolic succession” doctrine and others also if you actually obeyed the Scriptures and listened to the Church, the foundation and support of the truth. The “truth” being the whole gospel of Jesus Christ which is entrusted to the Church and known as Sacred Tradition. (1 Timothy 3:15)

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.”

Matthew 18:17 “And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.”

And, please don’t bother to lecture me about “context” since you, by Scriptural definition, are “untaught” and are therefore “unstable” in your interpretation of Scripture (2 Peter 3:16).

Pax,
SHW

 

[Howie01]

Then we will agree to disagree.

OK.

 

[Howie01]

Jesus never told them to write it all down. He told them to go out and “teach.” Scripture is but part of their teaching. Their oral teaching was a bigger part of their teaching than Scripture. Epistles were written to complement oral teaching, not replace it.

You ought to notice particularly and store in your memory that God wanted to lay a firm foundation in the scriptures AGAINST TREACHEROUS ERRORS, a foundation against which no one dares to speak who would in any way be considered a Christian. For when He offered Himself to them to touch, this did not suffice Him unless He also confirmed the heart of the believers FROM THE SCRIPTURES, for He [Christ] foresaw that the time would come when we would not have anything to touch BUT would have something to read.

Augustine, In Epistolam Johannis tractus, 2. See NPNF Series I. VII:469.

 

[Howie01]

benedictus2 this is a Correction to my last post to you, #289.

.

benedictus2:

Abraham was declared righteous not by mere believing but by actually being righteous.

What you are in fact saying is, Abraham was not justified by faith at all, but exclusively on the basis of his actually being righteous.