What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

Looks to me that in Matt. 25:31-46 He’s just dealing with the living.

Hi Moondweller,

This is the General Judgment.

Matt. 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those (sheep) on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those (goats) on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

At this Judgment, all persons who have ever lived are judged, and we either receive everlasting punishment or eternal life, depending on our deeds/works. We will remain this way forever.

We are all judged according to our works/deeds on Judgment Day; our deeds/works prove either our true enduring faith, or else our deeds/works prove our lack of true faith. Whether we enter heaven or hell for eternity depends on our works/deeds as proof of our faith.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Hi Moondweller,

This is the General Judgment.

Sorry SHW, wrong again. It’s a separation based on identification. And in this separating process the King is dealing only with those who are living on the earth (mortals) at that time. This separation of sheep and goats has only to do with Gentiles. His sheep amongst them are ushered into His earthly, Millennial Kingdom as mortals.Matt 25:31-32 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations (πάντα τὰ ἔθνη) will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;"The fact that the separation takes place on earth and it pertains only to Gentiles living at that time proves it’s not a “general judgment,” or what you call “the Last Judgment,” as you erroneously interpret it.

SHW, because of your adopted non-literal interpretation of the prophetic delineations of the future of national Israel and the Messianic Kingdom, you cannot possibly understand what’s happening in Matthew chapters 24-25.

 

[SHW]

Tribulation and the "Rapture"

People think that God will whisk them up to heaven out of harms way before the great tribulation by means of a rapture. But, He did not “rapture” the early Christians; many died cruel deaths and became martyrs, including most of the Apostles. And there have been countless Christian martyrs throughout history who gave their lives for Christ and who did not deny Him under persecution and tribulation and death. He is not going to rapture the Church away from earth before His Second Coming either. The Church will also have to go through this great tribulation, just as it has gone through persecutions and tribulations throughout the ages.

Suffering is what helps purify us so that we can inherit the crown of eternal life, but this concept is alien to the American mindset!

Matthew 24:9 “Then** they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you**, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.”

This rapture idea has sold a lot of books and made people millionaires. It also gives people a “false” security.

Acts 14:21-23 “And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” 23 So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.”

Romans 5:3-5 “And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.”

1 Thessalonians 3:4 “For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.”

2 Thessalonians 1:3-5 “We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that** we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure**, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;”

Enduring persecutions and tribulations until our deaths makes us worthy of inheriting the kingdom of God.

Matthew 10:22 “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Revelation 7:13-15 “Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.”

Many early Christians and those who followed after them in the faith suffered persecution and martyrdom, and Christians are still dying as martyrs today. God did not rescue them out of tribulation. He strengthened them so that they could endure it and be approved for the crown of eternal life. (Philippians 4:13)

Revelation 3:11 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.”

Scripture states that we must persevere through tribulation so that we may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God and receive the crown of eternal life.

There is no rapture of the Church away from the earth before the great tribulation. Those who are alive at that time must endure it in order to inherit the crown of eternal life. Those who are still alive after the great tribulation, meet Christ “in the air” at His Second Coming, which happens right before the General Judgment, as I explained in the previous post.

Pax,
SHW

Oops!

I should have made it clear in my post that only their dead bodies rise from the dead and these join their living souls. Sorry about that. I pictured their bodies of “dust” re-materializing and then changing to immortal as they joined with their souls (who are already with Jesus) as He (and they) come to meet those persons who are still living.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Hi Moondweller,

Matthew 26:63-64 "But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, ** hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven **.”

Jesus states that hereafter (from now on after His death and resurrection and ascension) you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power of God (Holy Spirit) and coming on the clouds of heaven. Jesus is in heaven right now, sitting at the right hand of God and He will come again in the clouds at His Second Coming.

Acts 1:9-11"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Jesus comes in the clouds at His Second Coming in the same manner that He ascended into heaven (in the clouds). (Revelation 1:7)

Jesus promises in John 14:1-3 that after He prepares a place for them that He will return for them. He promises that where He is, there they will be also, and so if these dwelling places are in heaven in His Father’s house as He says they are, then He has to be in heaven with them in order to fulfill this promise to “be with them.”

Jesus cannot be ruling in a literal physical kingdom of Israel in Jerusalem on earth if He is forever with His Church in heaven as He promised.

“His foot not touching down” is not meant to be understood as a “rapture of the Church away from earth before the great tribulation” but it is instead His Second Coming. He will return in the same manner that He left when He ascended into heaven: with clouds.

Mark 13:24-27 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.”

This is the Second Coming and we are all gathered together in order to be judged as to whether we inherit eternal life or not. (Romans 2:5-6, Revelation 20:11-13)

Matthew 25:32 “All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.”

What happens to those persons who are still alive when He comes on the clouds at His Second Coming in order to gather us together for Judgment?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

If you look carefully, the dead rise first before we who are still alive meet both them and Jesus in the air in the clouds. Those who remain alive after the final tribulation meet Jesus in the clouds at His Second Coming. Jesus never touches down on earth since we meet Him in the air along with the dead who rose first and who came with Him to meet us. Notice that we are never parted from Him again (we will always be with the Lord).

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.”

When we, who are still alive after the great tribulation, meet Jesus in the air at the last trumpet, we are changed immediately (in a twinkling of an eye) from mortal bodies to immortal bodies. The dead rise first and receive their incorruptible bodies and then we receive ours. We meet each other in the air and we are forever with the Lord. The Judgment begins after our meeting in the air.

All of these Scriptures pertain to the Second Coming after the great tribulation. There is no “rapture of the Church” before the great tribulation.

Pax,
SHW

Oops!
I should have made it clear in my post that only their dead bodies rise from the dead because their souls have been living in heaven with Jesus. Sorry about that! I pictured their bodies of “dust” re-materializing and then changing to “immortal” and re-joining with their souls in a twinkling of an eye as Jesus and they come to meet those persons who are still living.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

It’s a separation based on identification. … This separation of sheep and goats has only to do with Gentiles. His sheep amongst them are ushered into His earthly, Millennial Kingdom as mortals.Matt 25:31-32 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations (πάντα τὰ ἔθνη) will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;"The fact that the separation takes place on earth and it pertains only to Gentiles living at that time proves it’s not a “general judgment,” or what you call “the Last Judgment,” as you erroneously interpret it.

SHW, because of your adopted non-literal interpretation of the prophetic delineations of the future of national Israel and the Messianic Kingdom, you cannot possibly understand what’s happening in Matthew chapters 24-25.

Hi Moondweller,

We will have to agree to disagree.

Since after this Judgment, the righteous receive eternal life and the unrighteous receive eternal punishment, it seems rather Final to me!

It is your interpretation that this judgment takes place on earth and that it is not the Final Judgment but for 2000 years it has been taught that this is the Final Judgment and that it happens in heaven at the throne of Jesus.

The “Pre-tribulation Rapture” doctrine was first taught in the 1700’s.

I cannot find any reference to two different “general” judgments in Scripture but I can find a reference to a “day” of General Judgment for all people. I believe that we are all judged immediately upon our deaths and this is our own particular judgment but the Final Judgment or General Judgment is at the gathering of the sheep and the goats.

1 Peter 4:5-6 “They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Romans 2:12-16 “For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”

1 Corinthians 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.”

2 Corinthians 5:9-11 “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences.”

2 Timothy 4:1 “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”

2 Peter 2:9 “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,”

2 Peter 3:7 “But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

1 John 4:17 “Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.”

Jude 1:6 “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;”

Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.”

Revelation 20:11-15 “Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12** And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God**, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Everyone is judged according to their works on this one Judgment Day.

Jesus has no throne on earth. Earth is His footstool. Heaven is His throne.

Acts 7:49 “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool.”

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

But then that’s to be understood since in the Scriptures you also mix law and works with grace and faith. At least you’re consistent - but not in a good way.

Hi Moondweller,

What “laws” do you think that Paul is speaking of, when he speaks of “the works of the law”?

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Hi Moondweller,

We will have to agree to disagree.

Since after this Judgment, the righteous receive eternal life and the unrighteous receive eternal punishment, it seems rather Final to me!

It is your interpretation that this judgment takes place on earth and that it is not the Final Judgment but for 2000 years it has been taught that this is the Final Judgment and that it happens in heaven at the throne of Jesus.

What a text actually says doesn’t matter at all to you, does it? It’s gonna mean whatever you want it to mean (or rather what Rome has told you it means).

The historical fact is that the early church was predominantly premillennial and those who thought otherwise were not considered “orthodox.” Amillennianialism didn’t begin to take hold until the fourth century and after.

But what men are to believe is what the Scriptures actually reveal, not what other men preconceived in their own minds and then took the liberty to spiritualize or allegorize the prophetic Scriptures to conform them to their preconceived notions.

This is the reason why the Roman church calls for an “infallible” Magisterium. It can’t comfortably live with the results of such a sloppy hermeneutics. The allegorizing method of interpretation leaves the meaning of Scripture up to the imaginations of men. Hence, it’s possible to have as many meanings of a Scriptural passage as there are men. So in desperation they must appoint certain men to “infallibly” pick which men’s imaginations are to be considered “orthodox” for the Roman church. So, in Rome’s reality, it doesn’t really matter at all what the Biblical text actually says, only what your church :bowdown: “teaching authority” decides it wants it to mean.

The difference is that the literal, historical and grammatical interpretation (hermeneutics) puts a check on the imaginations of men and inherently gives final authority to the Scriptures themselves, the written Word of God. As it should be, and as it should have been from the beginning.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

The difference is that the literal, historical and grammatical interpretation (hermeneutics) puts a check on the imaginations of men and inherently gives final authority to the Scriptures themselves, the written Word of God. As it should be, and as it should have been from the beginning.

hmm. So in Apostolic times, before Scripture, when only the Apostles’ and their disciples’ oral word and tradition guided Christians, you would have been one of the Jews, saying this was all contrary to Scriptures and quoted something like above. You would have argued with St. Paul, or sought to imprison him, just like the Jews did, as he was EXTREMELY IMAGINATIVE AND GIVEN TO FANTASTIC INTERPRETATIONS! Not at all in keeping with the literal understanding as held by the Jews.

 

[SHW]

What a text actually says doesn’t matter at all to you, does it? It’s gonna mean whatever you want it to mean (or rather what Rome has told you it means).

The historical fact is that the early church was predominantly premillennial and those who thought otherwise were not considered “orthodox.” Amillennianialism didn’t begin to take hold until the fourth century and after.

Howdy Moondweller,

Since the Church had not made a ruling on either the Premillenialism faith idea or Amillennianialism faith idea back in the early centuries, the veracity of both of these could be debated by the members of the Church. Since that time premillenialism has been judged not worthy of belief by the Church’s teaching office or Magisterium.

You do not understand how the Church decides on rules, etc.

In Acts 15, there is a difference of opinion on whether Gentiles should be circumcised in order to join the Church.

Acts 15:1 "And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.”

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

The Apostle James concurs with Peter and adds his own thoughts and a letter is sent to the Churches to inform them of the new ruling.

This is how it usually works in the Catholic Church. First, the idea controversy is stated, then there is debate, and last is the decision. However, the Pope can make a decision without debate since he alone is the keeper of the keys. (Matthew 16:18-19)

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

But what men are to believe is what the Scriptures actually reveal, not what other men preconceived in their own minds and then took the liberty to spiritualize or allegorize the prophetic Scriptures to conform them to their preconceived notions.

The difference is that the literal, historical and grammatical interpretation (hermeneutics) puts a check on the imaginations of men and inherently gives final authority to the Scriptures themselves, the written Word of God. As it should be, and as it should have been from the beginning.

Hi Moondweller,

Your strict “word for word” interpretation of Scripture can get a person into some real jams.

Matthew 5:29 “If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.”

Matthew 5:30 “And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.”

Matthew 23:9 “Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.”

Mark 8:33 "But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, “Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

I think that these Scriptures are not to be taken word for word. Otherwise there would be a lot of one-eyed or totally blind persons and persons missing limbs living on this earth today.

What the Catholic Church does is to explain the original intent of the writer; she tells us what idea or truth the original writer meant to convey by his writing.

For instance, if a person writes a letter to someone today and states that it is raining cats and dogs, the recipient of the letter knows that real flesh and blood cats and dogs are not falling from the sky but instead he knows that the person who wrote the letter was conveying the fact that a great deal of rain was falling down from the sky.

2000 years from now, when the saying is no longer familiar, if a person would read this same sentence from the letter which said that it was raining cats and dogs, then he will think that real flesh and blood dogs and cats fell from the sky like rain at one time in history.

So, it is the Catholic Church’s duty given it by God (Luke 10:16) to convey to its members what the Scripture writer was trying to teach 2000 years ago, so that these church members do not create fables for themselves and others by using their own imaginations.

2 Timothy 4:3-5 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

The premillenial rapture fable is alive and well today.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

This is the reason why the Roman church calls for an “infallible” Magisterium. It can’t comfortably live with the results of such a sloppy hermeneutics. The allegorizing method of interpretation leaves the meaning of Scripture up to the imaginations of men. Hence, it’s possible to have as many meanings of a Scriptural passage as there are men. So in desperation they must appoint certain men to “infallibly” pick which men’s imaginations are to be considered “orthodox” for the Roman church. So, in Rome’s reality, it doesn’t really matter at all what the Biblical text actually says, only what your church :bowdown: “teaching authority” decides it wants it to mean.

Hi Moondweller,

I notice that you have an animated icon bowing down. I think this is a misjudgment on your part. Scripture states that we are to obey those who rule over us in the faith (bishops and elders/priests). It is true that bishops have authority over their dioceses in the Church with the Pope as head bishop over all, but we worship only God.

2 Corinthians 10:8 “For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed—”

2 Corinthians 13:10 “Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.”

2 Thessalonians 3:6 “But we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us.”

Romans 16:25-26 “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith—”

Titus 2:15 “15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”

Hebrews 13:7 “Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.”

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

It seems to me that I am obeying the gospel of Jesus, because I submit myself as commanded in Scripture, to the authority of the Catholic Church, which was built upon Peter the Rock.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

hmm. So in Apostolic times, before Scripture, when only the Apostles’ and their disciples’ oral word and tradition guided Christians, you would have been one of the Jews, saying this was all contrary to Scriptures and quoted something like above. You would have argued with St. Paul, or sought to imprison him, just like the Jews did, as he was EXTREMELY IMAGINATIVE AND GIVEN TO FANTASTIC INTERPRETATIONS! Not at all in keeping with the literal understanding as held by the Jews.

Again, it’s not ever what men believed, but what God revealed in His Holy Written Word:Luke 24:25-27 "And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken (i.e., concerning Christ as the suffering Servant)! Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory? Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself i.e., as the suffering Servant) in all the Scriptures.”

Luke 24:32 "They said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?”

Luke 24:44 "Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."All that the prophets said concerning the Messiah as the suffering Servant (His sacrificial death, burial and bodily resurrection) were literally fulfilled. So it will be with the prophecies concerning Messiah as the triumphant King: His second advent and His earthly reign as King of kings and Lord of lords on His father David’s throne in Jerusalem; literally fulfilling what the angel Gabriel spoke to Mary at the Annunciation:Luke 1:31-33 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."The problem with the disciples was they believed what they wanted to believe, or what they were told to believe about Messiah by their religious leaders. Not what was revealed about Him in the Scriptures. But after His resurrection He pointed them to the Scriptures and then opened their minds to understand them (Lk. 24:45). Pray that the Lord might do the same for you.

 

[moondweller]

Hi Moondweller,

Your strict “word for word” interpretation of Scripture can get a person into some real jams.

Do a little research and find out what a literal, historical, grammatical interpretation of the Scriptures mean. You’re showing yourself to be ignorant of it.

 

[SHW]

Original post by SHW: Jesus never returns to the Old Covenant. His New Covenant is a better one.

Original post by Moondweller: That’s right. So why do you Catholics keep insisting you’re still under law (with its Decalogue) and the power of sin?

Hi Moondweller,

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.”

Acts 13:39 “and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the Law of Moses.”

Paul is stating that our justification comes by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and not by the Old Testament Covenant “Works of the Law of Moses.” Paul also states that the “works of righteousness” done by the Israelites/Jews and those done even by men such as Abraham and Noah who lived before the Law of Moses existed, that these “righteous works” can not redeem them: Titus 3:4-7 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit (Baptism), 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

Why couldn’t we be “justified” by the “works of the Law of Moses” or even “works of righteousness?

The “works” (animal blood sacrifices) of the Law of Moses and “works of righteousness" of Noah et al could never pay the penalty for Adam’s “Original Sin” which separated us from eternal life with God (Romans 5). No “works of the Law of Moses” or even “works of righteousness” could redeem us from “Original Sin” and reconcile us to God. Only Jesus’ blood sacrifice could redeem (justify) us. We are made righteous by Jesus’ blood sacrifice on the cross when we receive His free gift of justification by faith. This is what Paul is talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” We could never atone for “Original Sin” by “works of the Law of Moses” or by any of our own “righteous works.” Paul is stating that only Jesus Christ could atone for “Original Sin.” This atonement for Original Sin is our “free gift” from Jesus.

The “works of the Law of Moses” (animal blood sacrifices) were mandated to atone for the penalty of “personal sins” under the Old Covenant. Animal blood sacrifices (sin offerings) in the Old Covenant had to be offered continually year by year for personal sins but these did not totally atone for them. There were never “enough” and never could be “enough” animals “sacrificed” to atone “once and for all” for our personal sins so completely that no more animals would have to be sacrificed. SIN IS ABHORRENT TO GOD. Only Jesus’ blood sacrifice on the cross could atone “once and for all” for the penalty of all of our personal sins so that no more “blood sacrifices” would ever be necessary to atone for our personal sins. Jesus pays this blood sacrifice for us but we are still responsible for our own personal sins and we will be judged according to our works/deeds on Judgment Day. Jesus’ Blood Sacrifice atones for both Original Sin and our personal sins when we are baptized. After our baptisms, then we must remain in the state of grace in order to continue to be justified. We have to obey God’s commandments in order to continue to be justified (remain/abide in Christ). (Hebrews 10:26-27, 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, James 2:8-9, Mark 12:29-31, John 15:10)

The New Covenant frees us from the law of commandments contained in ordinances, but it does not free us from His other commandments.

Nehemiah 9:13 “You came down also on Mount Sinai,
And spoke with them from heaven,
And gave them just ordinances and true laws,
Good statutes and commandments."

Ephesians 2:14-17 “Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near."

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

We are not free from personal responsibility for obeying His other commandments (those which are not contained in the ordinances of the Old Covenant). **We must obey all of His other commands in order to inherit the kingdom of God. **

We will still be judged by our “fruits” just as all persons such as Noah and Abraham who were never under the Law of Moses were judged. They were accounted as righteous because they believed (had faith). However they showed (proved) their faith by obeying God and continued in righteousness because they continued to obey God. Our “good fruits” show (prove) our “faith” also. If we can show no proof of our faith by our good works (good fruits) on Judgment Day, then we are not saved.

Even though Abraham and Noah were righteous, they still had to be redeemed from “Original Sin” by Jesus Christ. Romans 4:20-22 “He (Abraham) did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Faith makes it possible for us to do good works and these good works show others (prove) our faith. (James 2:14-24) No person could enter heaven until Jesus opened the gates of heaven after his death and resurrection. They remained in the bosom of Abraham (Limbo) until that time. (Luke 16:22-23)

God’s commandments which are not contained in ordinances must still be obeyed if we want to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19 “Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.** But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” **
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother, and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

1 John 5:1-3 “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.”

Jesus only saves those who love Him (those who keep His commandments).

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

And this is why we must obey the Decalogue and the other commandments of the Apostles.

Pax, SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus has a New Covenant and so the Old Covenant is obsolete (no longer in force), (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 12:22-24) but He does not forget His Father’s promises prophesied through Isaiah.

Pax,
SHW

Absolutely! The New Covenant was established “once for all” on the Cross, and the Abrahamic covenant, which was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ.

**Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away. (2 Cor 3:14)

On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. (Heb 8:6-7)**

**For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, (Rom 4:16)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:28-29)**

And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

 

[moondweller]

Jesus only saves those who love Him (those who keep His commandments).

Actually, He never said that. Nor did His Apostles. The Apostles taught salvation by GRACE through FAITH (Eph. 2:8-9), and Jesus said those who BELIEVE in Him have eternal life, and do not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life (Jn. 3:14-18; 5:24).

According to the Scriptures it’s while we were yet enemies that we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, and that we’re saved by His life, not by our love (Rom. 5:10). And according to the Scriptures the one who does not work but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is credited to him as righteousness (Rom. 4:5) In Rome it may be taught that Jesus saves only those who love Him, but that’s not according to the Scriptures. Now it’s true that the redeemed and born again love Him, even though they don’t see Him now (1 Pet. 1:1-9), but nowhere is it stated they’re saved, or will be saved, because they loved Him. That’s a different gospel.

Can you show me where Jesus said, “If you love Me I will save you?” I’ve yet to find it.

And this is why we must obey the Decalogue and the other commandments of the Apostles.

The Decalogue is found in the Mosaic Law not the Epistles. The Apostles taught salvation by GRACE through FAITH, not law.

 

[moondweller]

Absolutely! The New Covenant was established “once for all” on the Cross,

Not according to SHW. He said it was established at the time Christ instituted your sacrament of the Eucharist (in the upper room), prior to the cross. IOW, the bread became His crucified body and the wine became His shed blood even before He was crucified. He was there with them in flesh and blood, but yet that bread actually became his crucified body and that wine became His shed blood thereby, at that time, establishing the N.C. (according to SHW). Do you disagree with him?

 

[ryanoneil]

Not according to SHW. He said it was established at the time Christ instituted your sacrament of the Eucharist (in the upper room), prior to the cross. IOW, the bread became His crucified body and the wine became His shed blood even before He was crucified. He was there with them in flesh and blood, but yet that bread actually became his crucified body and that wine became His shed blood thereby, at that time, establishing the N.C. (according to SHW). Do you disagree with him?

No I don’t disagree with him. I should have said the New Covenant was ratified on the Cross. The NC was instituted at the last supper.

Can you tell me when God instituted the Old Covenant and when it was ratified?

 

[moondweller]

No I don’t disagree with him. I should have said the New Covenant was ratified on the Cross.

How so? Why did it need ratification and who ratified it?

The NC was instituted at the last supper.

How so? Through a miracle? Instituted at the Last Supper and ratified on the cross. What does this even mean? Define the New Covenant in light of Jer. 31:31-40 and 32:36-44).

Can you tell me when God instituted the Old Covenant and when it was ratified?

Define the O.C. With whom was it made and according to Scripture what was its purpose?