What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

How so? Why did it need ratification and who ratified it?How so? Through a miracle? Instituted at the Last Supper and ratified on the cross. What does this even mean?

Hi

This New Covenant must be sealed (ratified) with a perfect offering of a blood sacrifice in order to atone for Original Sin and conquer death because Adam lost eternal life for all of us because of this one sin. Sin offerings must be blood sacrifices. (Leviticus 4:35)

Hebrews 10:11-12 “And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,” 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.

Matthew 26:28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

1 Corinthians 5:7 “For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.”

Jesus is both priest and victim. Passover sacrifices must be eaten. He seals His New Covenant with His Blood, His death on the Cross. We receive His Body and Blood under the appearances of bread and wine because Jesus is High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek who offers up bread and wine in sacrifice to God. (Psalm 110, Hebrews 7:20-22, Hebrews 7:11-12, Genesis 14:18) This changing of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus is by the power of the Holy Spirit. (John 6:27-56)

We, ourselves, “die” to sin through baptism. Baptism frees us from both Original Sin and our own personal sins at the time of our baptisms.

Romans 6:3-9 "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.”

We are sealed through baptism and the Holy Spirit moves into the temple of our souls and hearts. (1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

1 Peter 2:24-25 “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.”

Ephesians 5:3-6 “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

We must live for righteousness after we die to sin through baptism in order to inherit eternal life. If we do not keep/obey God’s commandments, then we will not inherit eternal life.

to be continued…

 

[benedictus2]

Here’s what you said:”Abraham was declared righteous not by mere believing but by actually being righteous.”
That says Abraham was not justified by believing, but he was justified because he was righteous.

If you’d like to re-phrase that, go ahead.

Maaan! If you can’t understand my explanation which went as follows:

benedictus2:

No. Perhaps you should find out first whether you understood me correctly. When I said that Abraham was actually righteous not merely declared righteous, it means that Christ’s salviific death caused the gates of heaven to open and pour out graces on our soul so that we are actually MADE righteous i.e. we actually BECOME righteous, instead of merely being declared to be so.

then there is no hope. I give up. Abraham was righteous because he has been made righteous!

You did not ask me how he could have been righteous. THAT was the problem. You just straight away jumped to conclusion.

That Christ covers the believer is the testimony of Scripture

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
What is “clothed with Christ” if not a covering?

The change that takes place in justification is one of “position” before God—clothed with Christ. The “real” change, as you call it, comes about through sanctification.

You only come to this understand because you insist on mutilating the word of God and dealing with it in pieces!
Baptism cleanses us of all stain of sin. That is what Christ came here for to wash away our sins not to merely cover it.

God did not come to cover our sins. He washed it away with His blood.

 

[benedictus2]

No it’s not. Catholic belief is that regeneration occurs at baptism.
CCC para 1213: … “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Baptism only has a regenerative effect because of Christ’s life, death and ressurection. Without Christ, baptism has no power to regenerate.

Justification and sanctification are not the same thing.

We will not be declared just unless we are sanctified. We will not be declared holy unless we are actually made holy!
Revelation says nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are declared just because once made holy we will actually BE just.

Eternal security is part of the Gospel—it’s good news.

Depends on what you mean by eternal security. Your version is a modern interpretation that sprouted out of the Churches which are not led by the Holy Spirit.

Paul says you work out your salvation. He says Christ dwells in him in the same way sin dwells in him.

Jesus says not all those who call him Lord will be able to enter the kingdom of God. Only those who do the will of His Father.

One can only come up with OSAS when one chops up the Bible and reads it in pieces. You do violence to the Word of God and expect it to say what it is not saying.

That one can lose salvation is not part the Gospel—it’s not good news.

Only in your deficient understanding of salvation.

The Good New is Jesus Christ! But since you do not believe in a God who is Love then there really is no good news for you.

Salvation by works.

Now I will say you insist on remaining obtuse. You have not even explained what James meant and here you come up again with this.

Read Matthew 25 and try to understand what that means.

Oh please.

V13 begins, “Therefore,” IOW, because of the truth spoken prior to verse 13, Peter exhorts them to holiness. Peter was a good pastor, and every good pastor exhorts the faithful to holiness. That’s sanctification.

Evasion. That does not work with me. READ THE ENTIRE 1 PETER.

Here, look with what words the Lord’s brother closes his epistle:
Jude 24

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy…
Jesus keeps us from stumbling down here, so that He can present us blameless up there. That’s what Peter’s saying. Sheez.

No he isn’t. Christ can keep us from stumbling but he will not violate our free will. We can choose to stumble.

You must think we are robots that God pulls this way and that.

You have a strange view of God and man.

Just think of Jimmy Swaggart. Why did he end up commiting adultery? If Christ can keep him from stumbling He sure did let go of Jimmy Swaggart didn’t he?

Or even you. Have you never ever sinned since you have been “saved”? If you say you have not sinned then you are lying.

If you say yes, you have, then I am sorry to say this, but Christ who can keep you from stumbling must have let you go.

See what I mean. Read the Bible but you have to read it with your thinking cap on.

 

[benedictus2]

You’ve taken a very long time to respond to my post, so I don’t remember you saying anything about James.

Sorry. I have probably got you confused with someone else. That was probably moondweller.

Nevertheless, neither can you dismiss Paul with a verse from James—Paul says much more on the subject than James anyway, and his consistent message is that law and the Gospel do not mix.

You are misinterpreting Paul if this is what you think his message is. And that is what happens when you chop up the word of God.

I am not dismissing Paul. I did not quote James to dismiss Paul You (but now it seems that might have been moondweller) on the other hand use Paul to dismiss James. Not only James, but to dismiss Christ as well.

You’ve been a very long time in answering my post. You’ll have to refresh my memory as to how my one word answer proves your point.

Sorry, for the very late reply. I do not have the same amount of time to devote to CAF as I used to. I struggle to read the threads I’ve subscribed let alone make a post. Then again sometimes I just completely miss the replies to my post. And I am blaming that on old age.

I said you proved my point because you said I was putting the cart before the horse with regards loving the Lord and the descent of the Holy Spirit. And I replied that the Apostles loved the Lord even before the coming of the Paraclete so it was not a case of putting the cart before the horse.

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Define the New Covenant in light of Jer. 31:31-40 and 32:36-44).Define the O.C. With whom was it made and according to Scripture what was its purpose?

Jeremiah is prophesying this New Covenant. There is only one New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD:** I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts**; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

A remnant of Israel was saved when they embraced Christianity in the days of the Apostles, with Peter, James, John, etc. and later Paul, as leaders of this remnant of Israel, which comprised the Church leadership of this New Covenant. (Romans 11:1-6, Luke 17:21)

Jeremiah 32:40-41 “And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. 41 Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’”

Romans 9:25 "As He says also in Hosea:
“ I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “ And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,

  ‘ **You are not My people,’
  There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

**
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“ Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.” ( (See also Romans 11)

God promises that Israel will return to their homeland. (They are doing this right now.) A remnant of these will come into the Church during the great tribulation after the two witnesses, Enoch and Elias preach to them. (Revelation 11:2-4) The Gentiles come into the Church and are still coming into the Church this day because of the Israelites’ rejection. Remnant Israel will come into the Church, during the great tribulation, shortly before Jesus returns for His Second Coming. The kingdom of God is within us when we abide in Christ, and Jesus will rule over us from His throne in heaven (with earth as His footstool), because His kingdom is not of this world. (Luke 17:21, John 18:36, Matthew 5:34-36)

Many, many covenants were made in the Old Testament times.

A Covenant was made between God and Abraham and was ratified with circumcision. (Acts 7:2-8)

Abraham did not break his covenant with God and so God made great promises to him and his descendants. (Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:17-19, James 2:21)

Exodus 24:8 "And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words.”

The Israelites broke their covenant with God, which we now refer to as the “Old Covenant.”

The law of ordinances was added as punishment for transgressions of this Old Covenant.

Galatians 3:15-20 “Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.”

When Jesus came, He made the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” of the Law of Moses obsolete by His perfect offering of Himself on the cross, as the Paschal Lamb in atonement for sins, and so these ordinances are no longer in force. However, all commandments of the gospel of Jesus are in force and we must obey them in order to inherit eternal life.

James 1:21-22 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”

1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[benedictus2]

Maybe you don’t understand the Holy Spirit and the Paraclete are the same person, I don’t know, but, the HS is given to each believing member of the body of Christ—the Church, and the Paraclete is given forever, thus the language of guarantee—the sealing of the Spirit.

Howie, it is you who do not understand my post.
The whole point of my post is that John 14:16 is not about an individual sealing of the Holy Spirit. Yes it is given FOREVER, but that promise that was given in John 14:16 IS FOR THE CHURCH TO BE LED INTO TRUTH, not for all individuals.
We are specifically discussing John 14:16. The issue is you misinterpretation that John 14:16 is that the promise was made to every Tom Dickens and Harry.

You are inconsistent benedictus2, as I knew you would be when I framed your argument using your terms. Inconsistency and double standard are the hallmarks of Catholics, and their apologetics, IMO.

Sorry but you have not shown me where the inconsitency is. And you have not done that because YOU CAN’T. Otherwise, you would have shown me where the inconsistency lie.

Not so, but I understand your need to cling to your misconception.

Reformed doctrine is historically consistent.

Reformed doctrine is consistent with the “reformers” thought but not with apostolic teaching. SS and SF is neither Biblical nor consistent with what Apostles and their successors have taught through the centuries. That is why reformed doctrine is a doctrine of man.
That is why protestants feel free to disobey Christ because in truth it is not Christ they follow. Christ was very explicit about the teaching against divorce and yet protestants think that is a command that they can disobey.

I often quote Christ’s sayings, it’s just that you’re not around to hear that, or to read that.

If you do then you are a rarity. In all the time I have been in this forum, it was always Paul and rarely ever the Gospels.

But, in Jn 14 it’s said of the Spirit that He lead the apostles into all truth. That’s because Christ didn’t reveal everything to them at the time He was present with them. So the Spirit’s leading into all truth was with respect to the fuller understanding of the Gospel, and the recalling of that which the Spirit wanted recalled for the writing of the NT.

Completely agree. Especially that bit about leading the Apostles. Notice that when He gave this promise He did not give it to everyone like He did the sermon on the mount or other sayings. He gave this promise to His apostles. Not to all His followers. And this discourse was given at the last supper.

 

[benedictus2]

What you’re doing is spinning. As I said, like it or not, God’s predestining some to the kingdom necessitates His predestining others elsewhere, no matter how you spin it.

Nope it is not spin. That some are predestined to heaven does not necessarily mean that the rest are predestined to hell. I don’t think you can cite a passage that says so. Your logic goes if God has predestined some to go to the right then he must have predestined the others to go to the left which is not a logical conclusion since there is no general statement before that that states that God predestines ALL men either way.
Which really all boils down to a deficient understanding of predestination.

I don’t follow an evil God, that’s the image you’ve constructed. The difference between you and me with respect to this is, I’ve studied theology proper, you haven’t.

If you have studied theology proper then you must have had dingbats for teachers for they sure did not teach you proper theology.

That you follow an evil god is something that follows from your posts. You cannot extricate yourself from this conclusion that DERIVE logically from your posts.

The verse says much more than that, though I understand your not wanting to deal with the rest at this time.

The verse is clear. GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD. Very far from the ,unloving God you portray. The description of God who is love is so ubiquitous in scripture both in the OT and NT.

Don’t be silly.

Well if I am being silly you have only yourself to blame. You are the one who said it is ridiculous to say GOD IS LOVE. It is ridiculous for you to call yourself a Christian if you do not believe that, which is most basic to Christianity. And you claim to have studied “proper theology”?

Dear, you’re the one who’s been referring to God as “evil” in this conversation.

Well. Howie, you said that God ‘PREDESTINE SOME PEOPLE TO HELL”.
Do you even realize what you are saying here? That God SPECIFICALLY CREATED PEOPLE FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF SENDING THEM TO HELL.
If you were to describe a human being like that, say a mother who purposely gets pregnant so that she can torture her child for all eternity, what adjective would you give that mother?

To predestine someone to hell means that even before they were conceived they were already destined for hell.
Since God is the sole Author of life, He therefore is the one who has decided that from the word go, these people are meant for damnation.

Which really makes him an unjust and evil god.
That is probably something you have not mulled over in your study of theology.

I don’t use that word in connection with God, so you keep beating that strawman benedictus2, beat him good.

The only reason you do not use that adjective for the kind of God you hold in your head is because inspite of you having studied “proper theology” you have failed to pass your ideas through proper logical thought.
The evil god is a logical conclusion from your own premises.

But the thing is you faile to connect all the dots and you are quite happy that they are not connected and don’t make sense.

How would you know? We haven’t discussed a word concerning free will, as I recall. Are you going to erect another strawman?

Based on your statements. If God has already predestined us either to heaven or hell, what is the point of free will?

Why don’t you explain free will to me?

If I need to explain free will to you then there really is a problem.

 

[SHW]

Absolutely! The New Covenant was established “once for all” on the Cross, and the Abrahamic covenant, which was based on grace through faith, was incorporated into the New Covenant of Christ.

**Rather, their thoughts were rendered dull, for to this present day the same veil remains unlifted when they read the old covenant, because through Christ it is taken away. (2 Cor 3:14)

On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness, for the law brought nothing to perfection; on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God. (Heb 7:18-19)

Now he has obtained so much more excellent a ministry as he is mediator of a better covenant, enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, no place would have been sought for a second one. (Heb 8:6-7)**

**For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, (Rom 4:16)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:28-29)**

And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

Great job!

The priestly order of Melchizedek, which was in force during Abraham’s time, is the order of priests from which our Lord comes. Abraham never broke his covenant with God but this is not the same covenant which we call the “Old Covenant.” The Old Covenant is the covenant that God made with His people through Moses and which they did not keep. Because of their transgressions, the law of commandments contained in ordinances was added. The Old Covenant with Moses was sealed with the blood of animals. (Exodus 24:8) The Blood of Christ sealed the New Covenant.

Genesis 14:18 "Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him (Abram) and said:

Salem is the ancient name for the place where Jerusalem now is. (Psalm 76:2)

Hebrews 7:1-2 "For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,”

Hebrews 6:20 “where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

Because Abraham never broke his covenant with God, God’s promises to him are in the process of being fulfilled. The ultimate fulfillment will be when the remnant of Israel joins the Church in the last days shortly before Jesus’ Second Coming.

Galatians 3:19 “What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.”

Hebrews 9:15 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”

Hebrews 7:11-12 “Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12** For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.”**

Hebrews 9:11-17 "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Because Adam brought sin into the world through his one sin which we call Original Sin and brought death to us all, and because the Old Covenant could not redeem us from this sin and from our own personal sins by the sacrifices of animals, only the death of a perfect Man could reconcile us to God and make eternal life possible for all of us. Since Jesus is both God and Man, He can mediate for us with His Father and atone for this Original Sin and all the other sins committed by man. This sacrifice must be a blood sacrifice. The testator/mediator must die in order for this New Covenant to be in force.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

originally posted by Howie01: Eternal security is part of the Gospel—it’s good news.

Your belief is not biblical.

Hebrews 5:9 “And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,”

Hebrews 13:17 “Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.”

1 Peter 1:22 “Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,”

Acts 5:32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

2 Thessalonians 3:14 “And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed.”

Galatians 3:1 “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified?”

Hebrews 3:17-19 “Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

The Scripture writers equate “disobedience” with “unbelief.” To obey is to believe. To believe is to obey. They cannot be separated.

Hebrews 5:8 “though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.”

Jesus learned obedience. We must obey His gospel in order to inherit eternal life. (Romans 13:8-10, Matthew 19:16-19)

Romans 2:8 “but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,”

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction”

Philippians 2:12 “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

1 John 2:4 “He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

1 Corinthians 7:19 “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

Revelation 22:14 “Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.”

If you are declaring that certain Scriptures back up your belief in Eternal Security, then you are misinterpreting them.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

How so? Why did it need ratification and who ratified it?

The blood of the covenant is shed for the forgiveness of sins. Blood is a symbol of family relations. Jesus ratified it.

Why did Moses take the blood from the sacrificed animals and sprinkle it on the people?

Through a miracle? Instituted at the Last Supper and ratified on the cross. What does this even mean?

Yes, through a miracle (Jesus performed them you know). All covenants are sealed with a ritual meal, which is why Moses and the elders sit down to eat in the presence of God (Ex 24:9-11). The Apostles did the same with Jesus.

Define the O.C. With whom was it made and according to Scripture what was its purpose?

God reveals that He wants Israel to be for the family of nations what the first-born was in the ancient family system - priest and king.

God is making His family a nation - but not a nation like the other nations. Israel is to be “a holy nation,” set apart from other nations, an example of holiness and righteous living, an instrument by which God extends His salvation to all the nations. After the Golden Calf affair they deserved to die for violating the covenant, but they were spared for the sake of God’s covenant. Then there condition was changed and they were no longer spoken of as a “kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”

Define the New Covenant in light of Jer. 31:31-40 and 32:36-44).

Christ fulfilled Jeremiah and the covenant promises God swore to Abraham in (Gen 22:16-18).

**He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy, according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever." (Luke 1:54-55)

He has raised up a horn for our salvation within the house of David his servant, even as he promised through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old: salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us, to show mercy to our fathers and to be mindful of his holy covenant and of the oath he swore to Abraham our father, and to grant us that, rescued from the hand of enemies, without fear we might worship him in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. (Luke 1:69-75)**

**and, like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it says in scripture: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame.” Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were “no people” but now you are God’s people; you “had not received mercy” but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:5-9) **

**For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us, as it is written, “I have made you father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into being what does not exist. (Rom 4:16-17)

They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen. But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel, nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. (Rom 9:4-8)**

See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:22-23)

 

[ryanoneil]

Great job!

The priestly order of Melchizedek, which was in force during Abraham’s time, is the order of priests from which our Lord comes. Abraham never broke his covenant with God but this is not the same covenant which we call the “Old Covenant.”

Pax,
SHW

I agree with the entire post. I apologize for lumping the covenant with Abraham in there. In addition to your statement that “the Old Covenant is obsolete,” I was pointing out that the covenant with Abraham was incorporated into the New Covenant.

Peace

 

[SHW]

I agree with the entire post. I apologize for lumping the covenant with Abraham in there. In addition to your statement that “the Old Covenant is obsolete,” I was pointing out that the covenant with Abraham was incorporated into the New Covenant.

Peace

Hi Ryan,

Since most people do not realize that there were “two” important OT covenants instead of just the “one” that we are all familiar with, I just added a bit to your explanation in order to inform others who might not understand what we were talking about.

Jesus’ New Covenant priesthood incorporates the blood sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood and the bread and wine sacrifices of the Melchizedek priesthood except that Jesus is the blood sacrifice instead of an animal.

This is why we have the actual Body and Blood of Christ under the appearances of bread and wine in Holy Eucharist. A Paschal Lamb must be eaten. This is why early Christians were accused of being cannibals. However, Christ’s body and blood are “living” immortal flesh and blood, not dead, and since He can never die again, cannibalism is a false charge.

If anyone is interested, I wrote a Scripture study which explains the Holy Mass more thoroughly:

http://members.cox.net/studyhisword/HolyMass.pdf

Pax,
SHW

 

[AmbroseSJ]

There is an important “connector” between the two Old Covenants and our own New Covenant; The one with Abraham through the Priest Melchizedek, and the Mosaic one, which is the Show Bread called for in Exodus 25: 30, and more clearly expounded in Leviticus 24. This Show bread was to be fresh baked of the most PURE flower, and placed on the table in the Tabernacle EVERY SABBATH. It was strictly for the Levitical Priesthood, who would eat the old loaves of the previous week. This was OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE of the people “a gift received from the sons of Israel … Reserved out of the Lord’s offerings as the perogative of the priests forever.” See also 1 Kings:21

This prefigured the continuous reservation of the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacles of Catholic Altars around the world. It also was a Holy Bread, to be eaten only by the Levitical Priesthood, in the Holy Place, as it was a Holy Bread, forever reserved there. This bread was an offering from of the sons of Israel, which would be fulfilled perfectly at the Last Supper.

 

[moondweller]

Continued:

Jeremiah is prophesying this New Covenant. There is only one New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD:** I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts**; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

A remnant of Israel was saved when they embraced Christianity in the days of the Apostles, with Peter, James, John, etc. and later Paul, as leaders of this remnant of Israel, which comprised the Church leadership of this New Covenant. (Romans 11:1-6, Luke 17:21)

But God says “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.” It doesn’t say with Peter, James, John and Paul. The only way you can come up with your interpretation is by allegorizing or spiritualizing the Scriptures. IOW, make them say what YOU want them to say.

God promises that Israel will return to their homeland. (They are doing this right now.) A remnant of these will come into the Church during the great tribulation after the two witnesses, Enoch and Elias preach to them. (Revelation 11:2-4) The Gentiles come into the Church and are still coming into the Church this day because of the Israelites’ rejection. Remnant Israel will come into the Church, during the great tribulation, shortly before Jesus returns for His Second Coming.

Can you show me where the church is mentioned in any of the Tribulation passages? That is, if you even know what the Tribulation passages are.

The kingdom of God is within us when we abide in Christ, and Jesus will rule over us from His throne in heaven (with earth as His footstool), because His kingdom is not of this world. (Luke 17:21, John 18:36, Matthew 5:34-36)

Yet Scripture reveals to us:Matt 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."And Gabriel said to Mary:Luke 1:31-33 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.“And according to the Scriptures (not Rome) Jesus, now in heaven, still anticipates sitting on His own throne (ref. Matt. 25:31 above):Rev 3:21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Many, many covenants were made in the Old Testament times.

There’s only eight Biblical covenants.

Abraham did not break his covenant with God and so God made great promises to him and his descendants. (Hebrews 11:8, Hebrews 11:17-19, James 2:21)

The Abrahamic covenant is unconditional. It’s God Himself who fulfills its requirement. The Mosaic covenant, however, was conditional and depended on Israel to fulfill it requirements. They broke it. God promised to make a new covenant with that nation. That New Covenant Christ inaugurated at the cross through His shed blood and death, and it will be established with national Israel in the future (according to Jer. 31:31).

But presently, Christ is building His church, calling it out from individual Jews and Gentiles. Each believing member of His church is brought into a saved/redeemed relationship with God through the blood of the New Covenant “by grace through faith.” The church is not Israel but the “bride of Christ” whom He will come for and meet in the air (according to the Scriptures).

The Israelites broke their covenant with God, which we now refer to as the “Old Covenant.”

The law of ordinances was added as punishment for transgressions of this Old Covenant.
The Mosaic Law is made up of commandments (Decalogue), sacrifices and ordinances. Nothing was “added” to it.

When Jesus came, He made the “law of commandments contained in ordinances” of the Law of Moses obsolete by His perfect offering of Himself on the cross, as the Paschal Lamb in atonement for sins, and so these ordinances are no longer in force.

Then why do you Catholics self-impose it?

However, all commandments of the gospel of Jesus are in force and we must obey them in order to inherit eternal life.

That’s not what Jesus said:John 3:14-18 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (cf. Jn. 5:24).Your “gospel” is a ar different one than Christ’s. But that’s what happens when you mix Law with grace and works with faith. It always results in a different gospel. Read Galatians.

 

[SHW]

There is an important “connector” between the two Old Covenants and our own New Covenant; The one with Abraham through the Priest Melchizedek, and the Mosaic one, which is the Show Bread called for in Exodus 25: 30, and more clearly expounded in Leviticus 24. This Show bread was to be fresh baked of the most PURE flower, and placed on the table in the Tabernacle EVERY SABBATH. It was strictly for the Levitical Priesthood, who would eat the old loaves of the previous week. This was OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE of the people “a gift received from the sons of Israel … Reserved out of the Lord’s offerings as the perogative of the priests forever.” See also 1 Kings:21

This prefigured the continuous reservation of the Blessed Sacrament in the Tabernacles of Catholic Altars around the world. It also was a Holy Bread, to be eaten only by the Levitical Priesthood, in the Holy Place, as it was a Holy Bread, forever reserved there. This bread was an offering from of the sons of Israel, which would be fulfilled perfectly at the Last Supper.

Hi

Thanks for the info. I did not know this about the “Show Bread.”

Pax,
SWH

 

[SHW]

There’s only eight Biblical covenants.

I stopped recording them after these:

Noah
Abraham
Isaac
Abimelech
Jacob
Israel
Covenant renewed at Moab by Moses
Covenant renewed at Mt. Ebal by Joshua
Joshua makes a covenant with the people at Shechem
Jonathan brings David into a covenant with the Lord.
God’s covenant with David
Jehoiada between the LORD, the king, and the people
Josiah
King of Hebron
Asa
Hezekiah
Ezra
Covenant recorded in Nehemiah 10
etc.

Perhaps you were referring to covenants with God “speaking” directly to His people.

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Jesus’ prophecy of Matthew 25:31 unfolds at two historical levels. (1) He initially fortells the judgment of Israel at the end of the Old Covenant Age. (2) Then He ulitimately fortells the General Judgment at the end of history.

**(1) ** In (Mat 25:31; 24:30) Jesus alludes to “the Son of man” from (Dan 7:13). In context, Daniel beholds “a son of man” coming to God with the clouds of heaven (not to earth). He is given a royal “kingdom” (Dan 7:14) and “everlasting dominion” over all nations. Daniel’s vision was initially fulfilled with Jesus’ Resurrection and Ascension to the Father.

**Then Jesus approached and said to them, "*All power *in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Mat 28:18)

So then the Lord Jesus, after he spoke to them, was taken up into heaven and took his seat at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)**

Jesus’ victory over his enemies was visibly manifest with Jerusalem’s judgment and the termination of the Old Covenant.

**For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. Amen, I say to you, there are *some standing here who will not taste death *until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Mat 16:27-28)

Amen, I say to you, *this generation *will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mat 24:34)

But Jesus was silent. Then the high priest said to him, “I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so. But I tell you: From now on you* will see *‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’” (Mat 26:64)

As he drew near, he saw the city and wept over it, saying, “If this day you only knew what makes for peace–but now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides. They will smash you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another within you because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.” (Luke 19:41-44)

I myself will pasture my sheep; I myself will give them rest, says the Lord GOD. The lost I will seek out, the strayed I will bring back, the injured I will bind up, the sick I will heal (but the sleek and the strong I will destroy), shepherding them rightly. As for you, my sheep, says the Lord GOD, I will judge between one sheep and another, between rams and goats. Was it not enough for you to graze on the best pasture, that you had to trample the rest of your pastures with your feet? Was it not enough for you to drink the clearest water, that you had to foul the remainder with your feet? Thus my sheep had to graze on what your feet had trampled and drink what your feet had fouled. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Now will I judge between the fat and the lean sheep. Because you push with side and shoulder, and butt all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them out, I will save my sheep so that they may no longer be despoiled, and I will judge between one sheep and another. (Ezek 34:15-22)**

 

[SHW]

But God says “I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah.” It doesn’t say with Peter, James, John and Paul. The only way you can come up with your interpretation is by allegorizing or spiritualizing the Scriptures. IOW, make them say what YOU want them to say.

Hi MD,

Jesus’ New Covenant is the covenant that God makes with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. This New Covenant is an everlasting covenant. There will be no more covenants made between God and man. Jesus, from the house of Israel (Jacob) and from the house of Judah (David), fulfills all prophecies pertaining to them. He is the fulfillment.

Old Testament Prophecies and their fulfillment in Christ Jesus in the New Testament:

Jesus is the Son of Abraham:
Genesis 32:28 “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.”

Genesis 22:18 “In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Matthew 1:1 “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham”

Acts 3:25 “You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’”

Jesus is the Star of Jacob (Israel): (Genesis 32:28)
Numbers 24:17 “I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.”

Matthew 2:2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

Ezekiel 37:25-27 “Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children’s children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

The “New Jerusalem” is His Church. Jesus is with His Bride, His Church, forever. It is the heavenly Jerusalem.. He is the Light of this heavenly Jerusalem. (Revelation 21:9-24) All of the Remnant eventually joins His Bride (His Church) because He has made an everlasting covenant with Israel and Judah and so the imperfect Old Covenant is no longer in force. Since Jesus is testator of this New Covenant, it will never end, because He will never break it.

Jesus is of the Tribe of Judah:
Genesis 49:10 “The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.”

Luke 3:33 “the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah,”

Hebrews 7:14 “For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood.”

Jesus is the Son of David:
Isaiah 9:7 “Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”

Jeremiah 23:5 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”

Matthew 1:1 “The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:”

Romans 1:2-4 “which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead”

Jesus Establishes the Throne of David Forever:
1 Chronicles 17:11-14 “And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. 12 He shall build Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. 13 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son; and I will not take My mercy away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. 14 And I will establish him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and his throne shall be established forever.”

Luke 1:32-33 “He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Jesus is Born a King:
Jeremiah 30:9 “But they shall serve the LORD their God, And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.”

Luke 1:69 “And has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David”

John 12:13 "took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: “Hosanna! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’ The King of Israel!”

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?” Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

An Everlasting Covenant is Made Between God and Man:
Hebrews 13:20-21 “Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”

Jesus has fulfilled the Old Covenant prophecies concerning Him. He has made an everlasting covenant with the House of Israel (Jacob) and the House of Judah (David). There will be no more covenants made between God and mankind.

Pax,
SHW

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Hi

Thanks for the info. I did not know this about the “Show Bread.”

Pax,
SWH

I do try to help.