What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[fbl9]

Thanks for the reply Moondweller,more to come at later time after i chew on it for a while…i may have missed it but i have never noticed it recorded in any of the gospels of Christ saying that His kingdom is or will be of this earth,to my short memory i don’t seem to recall Jesus saying anything other than His kingdom is not of this earth…
When is the last day?
If there is no church ,due to it being raptured, who does the preaching until the last day?

 

[moondweller]

Hi MD,

A “thousand years” is a symbolic number and it means “a long time.” It is not to be taken literally.

There’s nothing in the text in Rev. 20 to indicate that it is to be understood nonliterally. And according to your interpretation Satan is already bound. Well, not according to Lk. 22:3, 31; Acts 5:3; 1 Cor. 5:5; 1 Cor. 7:5; 2 Cor. 2:11; 11:14; 2 Cor. 12:7; 1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Tim. 1:20; Rev. 2:9, 13.

Jesus stated "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:29

When did Jesus drink of the fruit of this vine (wine) again?

John 19:30 “So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.”

Jesus drank of the vine (wine) on the cross in His Father’s kingdom.

The cross was the Father’s kingdom? Is that why Jesus cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me? You’ve got a strange doctrine here, SHW :hypno:

He also ate and drank with the apostles in His kingdom after His resurrection:

Acts 10:39-42 “And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[a] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.”

It states nothing about Him drinking wine with them. They were still in this world system (kosmos), and did you not agree that Jesus said His kingdom is not of this kosmos (world system; Jn. 18:36)?

The kingdom is here. We are already in it and we will remain in it if we continue to abide in Christ and do not commit mortal sins which cut us off from His kingdom. We must be working continuously to perfect our faith in order to be counted worthy to inherit eternal life when we die.

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Acts 26:18 “…to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’”

Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."You preach a “different gospel” than that which was taught by the Apostles. :sad_yes:

The apostles and disciples preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and their successors are still doing so.

I’ll ask you again, where in Matt. 28:19-20 does Jesus tell them to preach that “the kingdom is at hand?”

Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

In context this is at the end of the age and during the Tribulation period. It specifically says “gospel of the kingdom,” not the “gospel of the grace of God” which the Apostles (especially Paul) were commissioned by Christ to take to the world:Acts 20:24 “But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the gospel of the grace of God.”

There is only one gospel.

There’s only one gospel of GRACE. And it states explicitly that one is saved by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works. But there is also the gospel of the kingdom, Christ’s kingdom which is yet to come. And according to Scripture, that gospel will be preached to the whole world near the end of the age, and then the end (of the age) shall come.

 

[ryanoneil]

This passage is describing the church Christ is building during this present age, calling it out from both Jews and Gentiles. The two groups become ONE body in Christ, which is the church, the Bride of Christ. It has nothing to do with the progression or regression of salvation. The church and the promised Messianic Kingdom are two different Divine programs revealed in Scripture. They’re not synonymous. You fail to see this when you impose an allegorical interpretation on those O.T. prophecies which vividly describe Israel and her future, Messianic Kingdom age. You force them to say something they don’t.

They’re not going to live in Israel, they going to journey TO Israel and inquire of Lord who rules there. In the kingdom age national Israel will enjoy supremacy because the Lord is reigning on David’s throne as the prophecies predicted He would.You can only come up with that conclusion by spiritualizing those prophecies and erroneously applying them to the church.

No, they, the O.T. prophets, had no clue as to this church age when Jews and Gentiles would be made into “one new man,” both being reconciled in “one body” (the church) to God through the cross (Eph. 2:14-18).The O.T. prophets described graphically the Messianic Kingdom that is yet to come when Christ, Israel’s King, returns to this earth and sets foot on the Mt. Olives.

What was God’s purpose with His covenant to Abraham? To bless the human race, transforming into a single family of God, to make each individual what Adam was intended to be - a son of God the Most High, heir to the kingdom of heaven, a ruler of creation, and a priest. And God’s covenant with David is made to renew and fulfill the promise to Abraham where all the tribes and nations of the earth are blessed.

There is NOT two divine programs. The Davidic Kingdom is an international empire, a worldwide kingdom, stretching to the ends of the earth and embracing all nations and peoples. The Lord will not start making distinctions again, un-creating the one people He made. Both Jews and Gentiles will continue to be “called out” and they will not be divided. The divine blessing to all the nations of the earth (Gen 12:3) is the gift of divine sonship.

 

[SHW]

The cross was the Father’s kingdom? Is that why Jesus cried out on the cross, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me? You’ve got a strange doctrine here, SHW :hypno:It states nothing about Him drinking wine with them. They were still in this world system (kosmos), and did you not agree that Jesus said His kingdom is not of this kosmos (world system; Jn. 18:36)?

Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
​

Jesus states: "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:29

When did He next drink wine? On the cross. So, if He states that He will drink of the fruit of the vine (wine) again when He comes into His kingdom, then why don’t you believe that He has already come into His kingdom on the cross? This is when He next drank wine. Are you claiming that Jesus lied? Because He most certainly did drink wine while He was on the cross. His death and resurrection are what gives Him the victory over sin and death and His Sacrifice is what ushers in His kingdom.

The reason Jesus cried out on the cross, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me,” is because He was actually praying Psalm 22, and this is a perfectly logical thing to do when a person is dying in agony! In every other example in Scripture, Jesus calls His Father “Abba.” It is only this one time, while He is on the cross, that He does not call His Father Abba and the only reason is because He is praying a Psalm.

Jesus’ kingdom is not of this earthly political world. His kingdom is of the eternal spiritual world. He will never return to earth to rule bodily in Jerusalem in the state of Israel. Earth is His footstool, never His throne.

Matthew 5:34-36 “But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black.”

Acts 7:48-50 ““However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
49 ‘** Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.**
What house will you build for Me? says the LORD,
Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?’”

In order to “believe in Him,” a person must “obey Him.” To “follow” means to “imitate.” Since you only read the Bible and do not have the oral teachings of the Church, you just pick out verses which seem to support your narrow understanding of Truth. If you desire to learn more of the whole truth, then a good first step would be to find every verse in Scripture that pertains to salvation and study them all together because they are all true.

Romans 10:16 "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?”

Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

The person who does not believe, does not get baptized, and so he will be condemned. Baptism actually washes away Original Sin and personal sins (at the time of Baptism) and make us disciples of Christ.

Acts 8:12 “But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.” (Acts 8:13, Acts 18:8)

“Believes in Him” means “obeys His gospel.” There is no “belief in Him” without “obedience to Him.”

1 Peter 4:17 “For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?”

This question is answered in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8: “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Why don’t you believe Scripture?

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:

Those who practice lawlessness (commit sin) will not inherit eternal life.

1 John 3:4 “Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, Ephesians 5:3-6, Hebrews 10:26-30)

Ezekiel 33 :12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

Pax,
SHW​

 

[ryanoneil]

The O.T. prophets, had no clue as to this church age when Jews and Gentiles would be made into “one new man,” both being reconciled in “one body” (the church) to God through the cross (Eph. 2:14-18).

The O.T. prophets described graphically the Messianic Kingdom that is yet to come when Christ, Israel’s King, returns to this earth and sets foot on the Mt. Olives. But national Israel rejected her King causing the predicted, Davidic kingdom to be postponed. But Paul says in Romans chapter eleven that God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. He’s brought a remnant of Jews into the church which Christ is presently building, and will yet usher in a remnant into the Kingdom that is to come as national Israel:Rom 11:11-12 "I say then, they (Israel) did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation {has come} to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

It appears you avoiding the obvious. The analogy of the olive tree shows that Israel is not being postponed or demoted from it’s favored-nation status so much as the Gentiles are being promoted to share in its blessing.

For Macedonia and Achaia have decided to make some contribution for the poor among the holy ones in Jerusalem; they decided to do it, and in fact they are indebted to them, for if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to serve them in material blessings. (Rom 15:26-27)

The olive tree describes the whole messianic people. The procedure of grafting wild shoots onto a cultivated trunck was meant to reinvigorate an old, exhausted tree that was yielding less and less fruit each season.

Rom 11:15 "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will {their} acceptance be but life from the dead?Their future, national “life from the dead” corresponds with Ezekiel’s prophetic vision of “dry bones” in chapter thirty seven. Read it in this light.

Funny how you are so quick to accuse other of spiritualizing scripture, and blast the idea of Israel’s national resurrection after the Babylonian exile.

 

[BRB1]

The parable of the ten virgins and the one about the slaves are both about being alert, prepared and ready for when the Son of Man returns to set up His Millennial kingdom on earth.

The ten virgins represent Israel which is to be waiting for their master to return from the wedding. The wedding has already taken place between Christ and His bride (the rapture of the church) and He is about to return (see Lk. 12:35-36). The parable is about being ready for Him.

AFTER the church, the Bride of Christ, is taken up to be with her Lord, the “gospel of the kingdom” that was preached by John the Baptist, Christ and His disciples during His earthly ministry, the message that it was “at hand” (Matt. 3:2; 4:17; 10:7), will be preached again by Jews to the whole world just prior to the King’s second Advent. No doubt it will be by those 144,000 mentioned in Rev. 7:4-8. It was preached by Jews then, it will preached by Jews again.The thousand years is found in Rev. 19:11 - 20:1-6. At the end of the age Christ returns to this earth as “King of kings and Lord of lords” to set up His glorious Kingdom. A glorious time when Satan will be bound and not active on this earth for 1000 years.Matt. 25:31 states that when the Son of Man comes in His glory (“King of kings and Lord of lords”), THEN He will sit on His glorious throne. That’s the throne of David on which, by Divine covenant, He was born to rule (Lk. 1:32-33).

.

Md … what you present here is Protestanat speculation. There are an infinite # of variations on this scenario … which one are you gonna believe ?

You forget it all started with Adam. Was he Jewish ? Was Abraham Jewish ?

Abraham got the promise, to be the Father of many Nations. God’s plan for the Church was not a Plan B … when the Jews rejected Jesus. The Church Universal was always in the Works. It includes those faithful Jews from age of Christ, and Peter quickly had the vision that the Gentiles were equal in God’s eyes … same goes for Paul and his Apostleship.

Revelations is primarily about the Church … the Mass and Eucharist are structured from it. Christ said he was going to heaven to prepare a place for us there… not to be waiting to set up a Kingdom here on Earth. He clearly taught his Kingdom was not of this World.

 

[BRB1]

Sacrament by definition is not a covenant - that’s why I asked where in the CCC it’s taught that way. I will assume you couldn’t find it. I didn’t recall seeing the CCC defining your sacraments as N.T. “covenants.”

Sacramentum is Latin for Oath. Broadly speaking, the Catholicism teaches that the New Covenant of Christ … is the Church. The Church is built upon Christ, and his sacraments for the faithful. To the degree one is faithful to the sacraments instituted by Christ … one is faithful to Christ. To not recognize the sacraments, or to see their importance to the Church, is to gravely err.

The Todah of the Old Testament … has its Church equivalent — in the Mass. The Old Testament foretold, that all sacrafices would end one day … except for the Todah [non-bloodly sacrafice of thanksgiving].

 

[AmbroseSJ]

BRB1:

Md … what you present here is Protestanat speculation. There are an infinite # of variations on this scenario … which one are you gonna believe ?

I wouldn’t even dignify his errors with the name of Protestant. As he specifies himself, he is a “bac” a born again christian. It is only slightly more Scriptural than Mormonism, but not by much. It’s popular “rapturism” that has led thousands, maybe even millions into its dark and twisted views. Opposed to all guidance and good judgment, it is giddy with outlandish fables of the “bac’s” being spared the horrible tribulation that will be wreaked upon all of us non-bacs.

 

[BRB1]

As he specifies himself, he is a “bac” a born again christian. It is only slightly more Scriptural than Mormonism, but not by much. It’s popular “rapturism” that has led thousands, maybe even millions into its dark and twisted views. :

I missed the post where he said he is born again. Alot of Protestants claim to have experienced dramatic ‘bac’ conversions. There is nothing unscriptural about such conversions for adults. Many accounts in NT canon support such conversions. … and they are far cry from Mormonism beliefs.

However, it is critical that new converts eventually find a secure home in the Universal Church. W/O linkage to Catholicism … it is a difficult proposition lengthy wilderness odyssey ] for a new convert to understand scriptures like the ECF’s understood/taught.

I think MD is well into his odyssey. In another year or so … he will be looking towards RCIA, and will make a great Catholic Apologist.

 

[SHW]

Moondweller,

You asked previously why there is no mention of "hiereus’ for priests in the New Testament Covenant except for when speaking of Jesus’ priesthood. (Hebrews 9:11)

The reason is because priests as “hiereus” offer new sacrifices to atone for sin.

But, New Covenant priests (bishops, priests/elders/presbyters) re-present Jesus’ One Perfect Sacrifice to His Father in heaven. It is not a new Sacrifice, it is the same Sacrifice that Jesus offered at the Last Supper in anticipation of His death on Calvary. Priests offer this same sacrifice again to His Father in heaven for the remission of sins. (Luke 22:19, Matthew 26:28)

So, the name for “priest” of this New Covenant priesthood is therefore different from the name for priest of the Old Covenant. New Covenant priests (bishops and priests/presbyters/elders) do not offer “new” sacrifices so they cannot legitimately be called “hiereus.”

Pax,
SHW

Also, notice the “tense” of the verbs in the Greek translation of John 3:16

catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9509fea2.asp

 

[BRB1]

But, New Covenant priests (bishops, priests/elders/presbyters) re-present Jesus’ One Perfect Sacrifice to His Father in heaven.

It is not a new Sacrifice, it is the same Sacrifice that Jesus offered at the Last Supper in anticipation of His death on Calvary. Priests offer this same sacrifice again to His Father in heaven for the remission of sins. (Luke 22:19, Matthew 26:28)

New Covenant priests (bishops and priests/presbyters/elders) do not offer “new” sacrifices so they cannot legitimately be called “hiereus.”

]

Furthermore, the N.C. priests only invoke our High Priest Christ to come down to us in the Mass, thru the Hosts, etc. We present our gifts before the altar, and Christ presents himself to us with his True Presence.

Just as Christ promised – desiring to be present to us … thru the Eucharist, in his Church, [Whenever 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name … I am with you].

We do not serve a ‘remote’ God who cannot be touched or experienced.

 

[ryanoneil]

Furthermore, the N.C. priests only invoke our High Priest Christ to come down to us in the Mass, thru the Hosts, etc. We present our gifts before the altar, and Christ presents himself to us with his True Presence.

Just as Christ promised – desiring to be present to us … thru the Eucharist, in his Church, [Whenever 2 or 3 are gathered together in my name … I am with you].

We do not serve a ‘remote’ God who cannot be touched or experienced.

Coupled with His eucharistic presence (Mat 18:20) is the ecclesial aspect of Christ’s ongoing presence in.

There is also (Mat 28:20) where Jesus says **“behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” **

 

[AmbroseSJ]

BRB1:

Furthermore, the N.C. priests only invoke our High Priest Christ to come down to us in the Mass, thru the Hosts, etc. We present our gifts before the altar, and Christ presents himself to us with his True Presence.

In other words, as Jesus commanded his Apostles, “to DO this” he granted them the power necessary to fulfill his command. The Catholic Priest acting in the person of Christ, in accord with God’s Holy Will, allows in this latter age on earth, for Jesus Christ our HIGH PRIEST to continue to offer himself as our Perfect Sacrifice. He is joined in this offering with His Royal priesthood, the Baptized Christians who are present with Him. It is THE sacrifice of the New Covenant, which dissolved the bloody sacrifice of the Old Covenant. This new sacrifice is according to the Order of Melchizedek offering the bread and wine, that is, the body, blood, soul, and divinity of the glorified Jesus, who re-presents to HIS FATHER in Heaven, His one time bloody sacrifice on the Cross; Forever calling to mind His Glorious Victory on the Cross. It is this self-same Sacrifice which is made present again for all of His true disciples in these latter ages, since His Ascension into Heaven.

 

[SHW]

Originally posted by Moondweller: As I said before, SHW, the only way you can come up with your Amillennial, eschatological theory is by spiritualizing and allegorizing the prophetic Scriptures. “Christian” cults do the same thing. As did the Gnostics in the first century before them.

Hi MD,

Jesus will not return to preach to the Jews. Jesus will not return to rule the Jews in Jerusalem in the State of Israel for a thousand years. He has already come to them but most of them rejected Him. He will send the two witnesses shortly before the end of time to prophesy and give testimony to them, but He only returns again on the Day of the Lord, and those who are still alive after the Great Tribulation actually meet Him in the air on this Day of the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:17) There is no “rapture” of persons before the Great Tribulation. Tribulations help to perfect our faith and are necessary according to Scripture in order for us to inherit the kingdom of God.

Acts 14:21-22 "And when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

Matthew 10:38 “And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.”

Philippians 3:17-19 “Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.”

Galatians 6:14 “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.”

Revelation 6:9-11 "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

There is no rapture! Those who are alive at the time of the Great Tribulation must go through it and many martyrs will be made because of it.

Jesus does not actually touch the earth when He returns for His Second Coming because those persons who are still alive meet Him in the air and return with Him to heaven for the Great White Throne Judgment and He judges everyone at this one judgment. It is erroneous to believe that there will be two judgments, one for believers and one for non-believers. There is only one Day of the Lord and one Judgment Day and they are the exact same day. (2 Timothy 4:8, Revelation 20:10-15, Romans 2:5-8)

Romans 9:3-5 “For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.”

Christ came and He rules over all right now, whether Jew or Gentile. He states that He came specifically for the lost sheep of Israel. But, most of them rejected Him.

Matthew 15:24 "But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

It is because of the Jews’ rejection of Jesus that the Gentiles were brought into the kingdom. Of course, God knew that the majority of the Jews would reject Jesus before He created the world, so the salvation of the Gentiles was always in His Plan because He desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-5)

Apocalyptic literature:

Revelation 6:9-11 “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that** they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed**.”

These souls are not literally kept imprisoned under the altar. This passage reveals the glory of the martyrs who were killed for believing in Christ. They took up their crosses and followed Him and they did not deny Him when persecution and death came upon them. They literally endured abiding in Him until death:

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
**
Not literal:**
John 5:26-29 “For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

We know that peoples’ spirits are not literally in their graves after death, only their bodies are buried. Their spirits either went to heaven, purgatory, or hell at the time of their deaths.

Satan bound (restrained) for a thousand years:

Symbolic:

Revelation 20:2 “He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.”

Satan’s power was bound (restrained) when Jesus died and rose from the dead. He will continue to be restrained until shortly before Jesus’ Second Coming. Satan is not given his full power to do evil until the time of the Antichrist. This, right now, is the times of the Gentiles and it is drawing to a close since the new State of Israel has already been established.

Luke 21:24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Literal:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 “1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Satan is still being restrained right now (unless we are currently in the beginning of the period of the Great Apostasy).

There will literally be a person who is the Antichrist. There will literally be two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, who will preach to the Jews and convert them to Jesus’ Church.

Peace:

John 14:26-27 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”

Why does Jesus state that He gives us peace but it is not political (the world’s) peace?

Because the kingdom of God is within us in our hearts, minds, spirits, and souls. It is His kingdom which gives us peace. (Luke 17:21) His Church brings us this peace. We make peace with God through His Church’s sacraments.

1 Corinthians 14:33 “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”

Romans 14:16-18 “Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.”

Romans 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”

Peace is a spiritual condition, not a political condition. We are admonished to live peaceably with our neighbors as much as possible, however:

Hebrews 12:14-15 "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled;

Eschatological peace will not be given to us until we are in heaven with Jesus forever.

Pax,
SHW

 

[BRB1]

There’s nothing in the text in Rev. 20 to indicate that it is to be understood nonliterally. And according to your interpretation Satan is already bound. Well, not according to Lk. 22:3, 31; Acts 5:3; 1 Cor. 5:5; 1 Cor. 7:5; 2 Cor. 2:11; 11:14; 2 Cor. 12:7; 1 Thess. 2:18; 1 Tim. 1:20; Rev. 2:9, 13.

But there is also the gospel of the kingdom, Christ’s kingdom which is yet to come. And according to Scripture, that gospel will be preached to the whole world near the end of the age, and then the end (of the age) shall come.

MD …

Catholics don’t have the full explanations on all OT/NT prophesy. There is much in Isaiah, Daniel, etc that doesn’t seem to have been fulfilled. If we claim to have full knowledge on end times … . Much is ‘reasoned’ opinion.

However, I do think the Church’s ideas on Revelations are particularily good, and far superior to alot of the Protestant speculations. A good book on subject is Scott Hahn’s … The Lamb’s Supper. It will put the Church’s Covenantal ideas in perspective … and show you the Mass and Eucharist are front & center in John’s vision.

Hahn says this about Revelations … “Protestants study the menu, while Catholics enjoy the meal”. So true ! We will never have every detail right regarding endtime events … but, lets at least make sure we are enjoying what can be known.

 

[moondweller]

Md … what you present here is Protestant speculation. There are an infinite # of variations on this scenario … which one are you gonna believe ?

It’s not speculation at all. It’s a conclusion based on what the Scriptures reveal and allowing the prophetic Word to speak for itself.

You forget it all started with Adam. Was he Jewish ? Was Abraham Jewish ?

It started with Adam but it didn’t end with Him. What you’re not taking into account is that Jesus, the “Last Adam,” IS Jewish, and His incarnation is directly connected to the covenant and prophetic, Messianic promises attached to that particular people and nation.

Abraham got the promise, to be the Father of many Nations. God’s plan for the Church was not a Plan B … when the Jews rejected Jesus.

Nor was the incarnation of the Son and His sacrificial death for the redemption of Adam’s race a “plan B” either.

The Church Universal was always in the Works.

It was always in the mind of God (though not revealed to the Hebrew prophets), but it was not always “in the works.” Jesus said “…and upon this rock I will build My church.” That’s a statement said in the future tense. He didn’t say “…and upon this rock I have been building My church.” And before you go there, I agree with Augustine that the rock is Peter’s confession, not Peter himself. We know from Scripture that the church is being built on the foundation of the Apostles (pl.) and prophets (N.T.), Christ Himself its corner stone (Eph. 2:20-22). The church began at Pentecost.

It includes those faithful Jews from age of Christ, and Peter quickly had the vision that the Gentiles were equal in God’s eyes … same goes for Paul and his Apostleship.

Yes, the church includes a believing remnant of Israel (Rom. 11:5-6) and every believing Gentile until “the fullness of the Gentiles comes in” (Rom. 11:25). And then, as promised, the church, the Bride of Christ, will be taken up to meet her Lord in the air (Jn. 14:3; 1Thess. 4:13-18; Rev. 19:7-10) and will return with Him at His second Advent when, in fulfillment of the Hebrew Messianic prophecies, He ascends His rightful throne on earth and rules over the nations with a rod of iron for a thousand years from Jerusalem (Rev. 19:11 - 20:6).

Revelations is primarily about the Church …

Chapters two and three address this church age directly and then starting with “AFTER these things…” in chapter four the church is no longer mentioned and is not referred to again until chapter nineteen.

the Mass and Eucharist are structured from it.

These are structured out of a mystical interpretation of Matt. 26:26-28 and Jn. 6:53-55.

Christ said he was going to heaven to prepare a place for us there…

I agree. He was speaking in the upper room to His Apostles whom He would send out with the message of salvation, by grace through faith via the cross He was about to endure. Not only those to whom He was directly speaking but also those who would believe through their word (Jn. 17:20). These would make up the Church He was about to build through the baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) at the time of personal belief in Him.

not to be waiting to set up a Kingdom here on Earth.

That a Son of David would be born and rule on David’s throne over Israel and the Gentile nations is revealed to us by the ancient Hebrew prophets. As the birth of Messiah was fulfilled literally, so the Messianic, kingdom prophecies will be fulfilled literally. For this the King must return and all the Scriptures agree that He will:Matt 25:31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne."And at that time He will fulfill what the angel Gabriel promised to His Jewish mother at the Annunciation:Luke 1:31-33 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."All in accordance with the ancient Hebrew prophets.

You might find this article interesting.

Both Catholicism and much of Protestantism, in Gentile arrogance, try to rob Mary’s Son of His royal position and inheritance. But the Scriptures will be literally fulfilled and the Son of David will return to this earth to set up His glorious kingdom after He has caught up His bride (the church) to meet Him in the air.

He clearly taught his Kingdom was not of this World

Yes. Not of this present “kosmos,” Greek meaning world system (structure). His kingdom is not of this world system. This world system is governed by Satan (Eph. 2:2; 1 Jn. 5:19). But that will all change when Jesus returns and ascends His glorious throne and at that time His righteous government will prevail on earth. At that time Satan will be bound for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6). For a little taste of that glorious time read Is. 2:1-4; 11:1-10. Read it and rejoice.

So, the name for “priest” of this New Covenant priesthood is therefore different from the name for priest of the Old Covenant. New Covenant priests (bishops and priests/presbyters/elders) do not offer “new” sacrifices so they cannot legitimately be called “hiereus.”

The only difference in the word “priest” found in the Old and New Testaments is that in the former it is written in Hebrew and the latter in Greek. Priest is priest in no matter what language you write it. Its definition doesn’t change. And no matter how you try to rationalize it (and this one was a doozie), “hiereus” in the N.T. is not a church office. The Body of Christ needs no earthly mediator to approach the throne of grace. What it has are elders/overseers (Gr. presbuteros/episkopos). An elder and overseer is the same office but neither is a “hiereus.” NO NEED.

 

[moondweller]

MD …

Catholics don’t have the full explanations on all OT/NT prophesy. There is much in Isaiah, Daniel, etc that doesn’t seem to have been fulfilled.

Maybe God forgot about them?

However, I do think the Church’s ideas on Revelations are particularily good, and far superior to alot of the Protestant speculations.

A little prejudice here, BRB? Your Magisterium has “ideas,” and Protestants “speculations.”

A good book on subject is Scott Hahn’s … The Lamb’s Supper. It will put the Church’s Covenantal ideas in perspective … and show you the Mass and Eucharist are front & center in John’s vision.

Just a cursory reading of the Book of Revelation I can see it’s not at all about your Mass or your Eucharist.

Hahn says this about Revelations … “Protestants study the menu, while Catholics enjoy the meal”.

Another prejudice statement?

So true !

Another prejudice sentiment?

We will never have every detail right regarding endtime events … but, lets at least make sure we are enjoying what can be known.

You can’t possibly know what has been revealed if you spiritualize away what has been written in order to conform it to your own ecclesiastical “ideas.” :newidea:

 

[moondweller]

It appears you avoiding the obvious. The analogy of the olive tree shows that Israel is not being postponed or demoted from it’s favored-nation status so much as the Gentiles are being promoted to share in its blessing.

What you are obviously missing in Romans chapter eleven is that God is presently dealing with a Jewish remnant (bringing it into the church), not the whole nation, at this present time (Rom. 11:5). But Israel, as a nation, has been put on the “back burner,” so to speak, while Gentiles, through faith in Christ are being brought into the church Christ is presently building. This will continue until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Rom. 11:25).

It’s not “Israel” that’s postponed during this church age, but the promised Messianic Kingdom revealed by the ancient Hebrew prophets.

The olive tree describes the whole messianic people. The procedure of grafting wild shoots onto a cultivated trunck was meant to reinvigorate an old, exhausted tree that was yielding less and less fruit each season.

No, my friend, branches were broken off so that wild branches (Gentiles) might be grafted in (vs. 19). They were broken off because of their unbelief (vs. 20). The wild branches that are grafted in are not grafted into the natural branches but rather alongside the natural branches directly into the holy “root.” The holy “root” is the Abrahamic covenant. The Gentiles that are presently being brought into the church through faith in Christ experience the “blessing (reckoning) of Abraham” which is justification by faith:Gal 3:8-9 “The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.”

Gal 3:14 "…in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."God is not fulfilling any Messianic prophecies today but rather Christ is building His church, and both individual Jews and Gentiles brought into it through faith are being blessed not according to Law (which ended at the cross) but through Abraham and the covenant God made to him (the holy “root”):Gal 3:26-29 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise."Paul never says in Romans chapter eleven that the church becomes spiritual Israel (replacing it), or that Gentiles become spiritual Jews (as the arrogant Amillennialist has erroneously taught since Origin and Augustine). But Paul states that national Israel will yet experience its “fulfillment” (Messianic, vs. 12) and its “acceptance,” that being “life from the dead” (vs. 15). All in accordance with the Abrahamic, Davidic, Land and New Covenants as revealed in the O.T. - and Ezekiel’s dry bones prophecy.

Funny how you are so quick to accuse other of spiritualizing scripture, and blast the idea of Israel’s national resurrection after the Babylonian exile.

Ezekiel’s dry bones vision is allegorical and represents that nation’s resurrection from the dead. But when one reads it he MUST conclude that that prophecy did not find its fulfillment after the Babylonian captivity.Ezek 37:21 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms."After the Babylonian captivity Israel had no king, only a priesthood. No son of David reigned on David’s throne. Read the rest of the chapter. That prophecy speaks of a King over them (fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant) who is God’s servant (not Rome’s/Caesar’s). Caesar made Herod King in Palestine, not God. Herod served only himself and Caesar.

At the time of the fulfillment of that prophecy God will make an everlasting covenant of peace with Israel (fulfillment of the New Covenant) and promises that they will never again be dispersed from the land (fulfillment of the Land Covenant). All contrary to 70 A.D. when they were again dispersed from the land. And last but not least, with their permanent residence in the land God sets His sanctuary in their midst forever.

Interesting though, Hosea prophesied of Israel and the Jews after their dispersion from the land in 70 A.D.Hos 3:4-5 “For the sons of Israel will remain for many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or {sacred} pillar and without ephod or household idols. Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.“No, my dear friend, Ezekiel’s dry bones prophetic vision (and so many others associated with it) has not been fulfilled yet. Its fulfillment requires the return of the King to Israel. That will happen when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him and"then He will sit on His glorious throne” (Matt. 25:31).And not one minute before then.”

 

[ryanoneil]

For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:16-17)

These passages clearly teach that the resurrection of the dead precedes the rapture. Scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day.”

**Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)

And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." (John 6:39-40)

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:44)**

 

[ryanoneil]

What you are obviously missing in Romans chapter eleven is that God is presently dealing with a Jewish remnant (bringing it into the church), not the whole nation, at this present time (Rom. 11:5). But Israel, as a nation, has been put on the “back burner,” so to speak, while Gentiles, through faith in Christ are being brought into the church Christ is presently building. This will continue until “the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Rom. 11:25).

It’s not “Israel” that’s postponed during this church age, but the promised Messianic Kingdom revealed by the ancient Hebrew prophets.

The New Covenant in verse 27 is no different the one that was available to them, and it will be no different in the future. God established His New Covenant at His First Coming and will not come to establish a covenant or forgive sin at his second (Heb 9:27-28). He will come to judge sin according to the covenant He has already established at His First Coming. Paul’s whole point is to teach the Jews that they have salvation, here and now, not in the Old Covenant of works, but in the New Covenant of grace. That is not going to change in the future. Paul is not speaking about the timing of the conversions but the manner of the conversions.

No, my friend, branches were broken off so that wild branches (Gentiles) might be grafted in (vs. 19). They were broken off because of their unbelief (vs. 20). The wild branches that are grafted in are not grafted into the natural branches but rather alongside the natural branches directly into the holy “root.” The holy “root” is the Abrahamic covenant. The Gentiles that are presently being brought into the church through faith in Christ experience the “blessing (reckoning) of Abraham” which is justification by faith

Yes, I know. The whole point is the the blessing of Abraham will come to the Gentiles in until the very end of time, because the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants are not going to end. Both Jews and Gentiles will always be saved in the same manner (by grace, not works of law), as they are now one in the New Covenant.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:28-29).

This will not end in the future.

Paul never says in Romans chapter eleven that the church becomes spiritual Israel (replacing it), or that Gentiles become spiritual Jews (as the arrogant Amillennialist has erroneously taught since Origin and Augustine). But Paul states that national Israel will yet experience its “fulfillment” (Messianic, vs. 12) and its “acceptance,” that being “life from the dead” (vs. 15). All in accordance with the Abrahamic, Davidic, Land and New Covenants as revealed in the O.T. - and Ezekiel’s dry bones prophecy.

"Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has visited and brought redemption to his people. He has raised up a horn for our salvation within the house of David his servant, even as he promised through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old: salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us, to show mercy to our fathers and to be mindful of his holy covenant and of the oath he swore to Abraham our father, and to grant us that, rescued from the hand of enemies, without fear we might worship him in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. And you, child, will be called prophet of the Most High, for you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give his people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, because of the tender mercy of our God by which the daybreak from on high will visit us to shine on those who sit in darkness and death’s shadow, to guide our feet into the path of peace." (Luke 1:68-79)