What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

How generous of you to consider that the Christ, the Son of David, is worthy of a crown of thorns constructed by those who crucified Him. And did those who constructed his crown then nail Him to His throne?

Hey, it’s the Jews who chose this type of crown for their king, not me! All of us nailed Jesus to the cross because of our sins.

Well, in Ezekiel’s prophecy he says they’ll live in the land forever and His sanctuary in their midst forever. In 70 A.D. the second Temple was destroyed stone by stone and the Jews were again dispersed from the land. So, no, my friend, Ezekiel’s prophecy looked far beyond the time of Herod’s Temple and to when the One BORN “King of kings and Lord of lords” would return to sit on His glorious throne in Jerusalem.

Jesus is ruling right now in heaven (land) in the Heavenly Jerusalem. His sanctuary is in the midst of His Church Triumphant right now. (Hebrews 9:11-28, Revelation 21:1-4) Eventually the Church Militant (those on earth) and the Church Suffering (those in purgatory) will join Him forever in this sanctuary also. He will dwell with us in this tabernacle for eternity.

Hebrews 9:28 “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Notice Jesus appears only once more! He does not come back for a “rapture” and then come back again a third time to rule on earth in the State of Israel for 1000 years. When He comes back the second and final time, then those who are alive are changed instantly from mortal bodies to immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:17) and then we all meet before His throne for our judgment. This day that He comes back is also Judgment Day. There is only one Day of the Lord.

When we “meet Him in the air,” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) then we will always be with the Lord. Since this is true, then Jesus will definitely not be in the State of Israel on earth in Jerusalem ruling for 1000 years! We can not all be with Him always as He promised if He is away from heaven and on earth ruling an earthly kingdom for 1000 years. This is an impossibility!

“Nations” means Gentile nations. Not the Jewish Diaspora. This will be fulfilled during Christ’s Millennial reign.You have no idea what the “Land” covenant is. If you did you’ll know it’s an unconditional covenant. God fulfills the requirements. There’s no such thing as the Jews breaking the Land Covenant.

When covenants are broken, then “forever” is no longer in effect. God promised Noah that He would never destroy mankind by a world-wide flood because Noah obeyed God and pleased Him, and so this covenant is still in effect and we see that it is by the rainbows that we see (Genesis 8:20-25, Genesis 91-17). I already showed Scripture which explained that devout Jews from every nation lived in Jerusalem after the second temple was built. This prophecy was fulfilled. Jesus stated that it was a house of prayer which had become a den of thieves. He showed that Isaiah’s prophecy had already been fulfilled. And Luke showed in Acts that devout Jews from every nation lived in Jerusalem and came into the Church.

You are like the present Jews who do not believe that Jesus’ New Covenant is the final covenant and that there will be no more covenants. Either the Jews come into His Covenant that He made 2000 years ago, or they perish. Scripture, which I quoted in previous post, states that a remnant of them will come into His Church shortly before His Second Coming.

Covenant: a binding and solemn agreement to do or keep from doing a specified thing; compact

Whoever breaks a covenant brings curses upon himself.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

I know there’s a Knesset in Israel, but so far no throne and no High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek reigning on it. Right! By those who mocked Him, spit on Him, and then crucified Him. :nope:AFTER “Judgment Day?” So He’s not ruling in heaven now? Make up your mind. Shooting from the hip again?

Jesus is ruling right now as High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:21) in His millennial reign in heaven with His subjects; the angels, and also the saints who have gone before us through death. However, after His Second Coming, all of His subjects will be in heaven with Him and He will wipe tears away from all faces.(Isaiah 25:8, Revelation 21:2-4)

The Old Covenant has been replaced by a better covenant (Hebrews 7:20-24) and this New Covenant is an everlasting covenant and there will be no more covenants. The reason for this is that Jesus is the surety (Hebrews 7:22) of the New Covenant with His Father, not us, so He will always keep it and not break it.

Hebrews 8:6-9 " But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD."

Hebrews states Jeremiah’s prophecy and shows its fulfillment in Jesus’ New Covenant because He joined the House of Israel and the House of Judah into one Covenant. There will be no more covenants! Jeremiah’s prophecy was fulfilled when Jesus made His New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD…

Hebrews is stating that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant and thus fulfilled Jeremiah’s prophecy.

Hebrews 13:20-21 “Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead,** that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant**, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
**
There will be no more covenants**. First, the pious Jews from all the nations came into the Church and then the Gentile nations came into the Church (and are still coming in).

Earthly “land” is not important in regards to the Heavenly Jerusalem (the Church). The Heavenly Jerusalem is the Church and Jesus is its Temple (Revelation 21:22). Jesus rules in heaven and His sanctuary is there. I admit that I do not know everything about the Land Covenant but I do know that there will be a “new earth” when the curse is totally removed after Jesus’ Second Coming: He will also make new heavens. These will be incorruptible (never decay) and will last forever.(2 Peter 3:13)

You do not understand the Majesty of God. There is no way that Jesus will have a physical kingdom in Jerusalem in the State of Israel, but it is time for us to agree to disagree and move on to other issues because neither of us will change our minds on this one.

Pax
SHW

 

[SHW]

Can you provide me with a list of those “fundamentalists” who believe this?You’re so busy cutting and pasting, SHW, I don’t think you’ve read any of my posts. Can you show me in my posts where I stated that the O.C. is still binding? Actually, it’s you who’s been arguing in favor of that point. No me.

No, but I have read some of their “thoughts” on this subject! I do not know them by name and they have not joined an official “list” online as far as I know. There are many persons who believe that the Old Covenant is still in force for the Jews, fundamentalist or not.

I, on the other hand, believe that the Old Covenant is not in force even if the Jews themselves believe that it is. And, we know that they are still awaiting their Messiah who has already come and they rejected Him. So, if you think that I believe otherwise, you are mistaken. The Old Covenant is no longer in force. The second temple was destroyed. Jesus is the new and everlasting Temple and there is no need for another! (Revelation 21:22)

**Do you believe that Jesus will make a covenant (other than the present New Covenant) with remnant Israel? **

If you do not, then I misunderstood you and I apologize.

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

Do you know what “the holy place” in Matt. 24:15 is?

Please point out to me Christ’s rebuttal of the pre-Trib. rapture doctrine. Please show me where Christ refers to the church at all in Matt. 24 or 25.

verse 22"…But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."Since the church is gone there is no more elect left on earth.

 

[ryanoneil]

It matters not when the vision was given but when it’s fulfillment is. Herod’s Temple can hardly fulfill what’s described of that Temple in Eze. 40-44. Reality check: Go back and read it again.

So, are you saying that prophecy must be literally fulfilled word for word (exactly) as it written?

I don’t rationalize or spiritualize or allegorize either of them. That’s your job.

Oh, then you believe that (Mat 16:28; 24:34) was fulfilled before the last of his disciples died? That is what scripture says after all.

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you know what “the holy place” in Matt. 24:15 is?

It is the second Temple. It’s destruction ended the Old Covenant age.

Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mat 24:1-3)

Please show me where Christ refers to the church at all in Matt. 24 or 25.

Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mat 24:1-3)

Now read the rest of the chapter. Every time Jesus says “you” He is refering to his disciples.

 

[SHW]

It is the second Temple. It’s destruction ended the Old Covenant age.

Hi Ryan,

Matthew 23:29-39, Matthew 24:1-3“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’" 1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Jesus rebukes the Pharisees and laments over the coming desolation of Jerusalem and the Temple, as punishment, because of their rejection of Him, their Messiah. Just think, the Temple could have become the first Church in fulfillment of the Old Covenant and continued as a glorious sign of the New Covenant Church but with a new altar, of course, for the celebration of Mass and for the Blessed Sacrament, if the Pharisees had not rejected Jesus! Instead it is destroyed and its ruins are but a visual reminder of the demise of the Old Covenant and its Temple.

Next comes: "3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Jesus answers all three of their questions but He does not distinguish between them by saying, “Here is the answer to your first, second, and third question.”

So, the first question is, “Tell us, when will these things be?”

The answer to this one is: “15 Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.”

The Romans slaughtered swine in the temple c. 70 A.D. according to Josephus the Jewish historian. This is the abomination of desolation that Jesus was speaking of.
ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-1.htm The Temple stones fall just as Jesus predicts. Jesus is speaking of His disciples witnessing this event. He states, “When “you” see the abomination of desolation…”

The next question is, “What will be the sign of your coming?”

“30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

They will see Him in the clouds of heaven and those persons, still alive after the Tribulation of Antichrist, will meet Him in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17, 1 Corinthians 15:51-53).

This is at the end of time, not during the disciples’ time. Jesus states “they” instead of “you.” Jesus returns (Second Coming) and will then judge the nations from His throne (Revelation 20:11-12).

The last question is, “What will be the sign of the end of the age?”

“4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

The Jews join His Church during the time of the Antichrist shortly before He returns (Romans 9:27-28, Revelation 11:3-7, Revelation 20:1-3). Israel is the “last” nation that will be preached to (again), and it is by the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Satan’s power is “diminished” (he is “chained” Revelation 20:1-3) until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. He is then given his full power back shortly before and during the time of Antichrist which is shortly before Jesus returns for His Second Coming. (He does not come to rapture the Church out before the tribulation of Antichrist. We all must live through the tribulations of our own times and endure to the end of our lives still abiding in Christ if we desire to enter eternal life (Acts 14:21-22, Matthew 24:13, Matthew 10:38).

Immediately after this tribulation with Antichrist, the sun and moon darken and then Jesus appears in the clouds to take the rest of His kingdom to heaven, these are the ones who are still alive on earth (after the death of Antichrist who is cast alive into hell Revelation 19:20) and they meet Him in the air and they will be with Him always. (Matthew 24:29-30) Jesus does not return to earth to set up an earthly kingdom in Jerusalem in the State of Israel. He is with His Church always in the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Church in heaven, so He cannot possibly be on earth ruling an earthly political State.

Demons’ possessions of persons are happening more often now since we are getting closer to the time of the Antichrist. The occult" influence is getting more powerful so Satan is regaining more of his full power during these times that we live in right now. Before Jesus’ death, demon possession was quite common, but lessened after Satan’s chaining (during the times of the Gentiles). But we will see more and more demonic influence (abortion legalized, euthanasia, Satan worship, etc.) as Satan becomes completely “unchained.” We need to prepare for persecution because we will not be spared.

No one knows the exact date of His Second Coming. “36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

AmbroseSJ:

So the opposite of oppression with an irrational bigotry, would be freedom of rational thought and opinion.
Protestants, and bac’s especially are oppressed with irrational bigotry.

But it’s Catholicism that asserts an “infallible” Magisterium. And Catholics (Western) cannot question or form an opinion contrary to that “infallible” voice.

Remember when I questioned you about whether you learned your doctrine from men? You staunchly denied it, even though you most certainly did, as none of what you say is explicitly in the Scriptures.

What I present eschatologically most certainly IS explicitly revealed in the prophetic Scriptures. I allow Israel to remain Israel, Jerusalem to remain Jerusalem and Zion to remain Zion. I allow the text itself to dictate whether or not I, the reader, should understand it figuratively or not. This is not at all what the Amillennialist does, but rather forces a spiritual interpretation on the text in order to conform it to his preconceived ideas.

Nor is there any injuction in the Scripture to prevent readers from spiritualizing, allegorizing or rationalizing the Scriptures.

Why should there be? That’s an irrational statement.

This is a man-made doctrine which you believe more than Scripture itself. That is the sort of irrational bigotry that Catholicism is free from.

You’re not “free” from anything. If your “infallible” Magisterium spiritualizes the prophetic Scriptures then you MUST accept its spiritualized interpretation. You cannot form your own opinion. That’s why you begin your argument with, “We Catholics believe…” You must bow to the thoughts of those who interpret for you.

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Hey, it’s the Jews who chose this type of crown for their king, not me!

“The Jews” chose nothing of the sort. Spoken like an arrogant Gentile. Read the text:Mark 15:15-18 "Wishing to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. The soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium), and they called together the whole {Roman} cohort. They dressed Him up in purple, and after twisting a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; and they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!"Who’s the “they” in the above passage? Were there any Jews involved in the constructing of that “crown?”

All of us nailed Jesus to the cross because of our sins.

Yet you still believe sin can eternally condemn you, rendering the cross insignificant.

Jesus is ruling right now in heaven (land) in the Heavenly Jerusalem.

Can you show me where this is stated in Scripture?

His sanctuary is in the midst of His Church Triumphant right now. (Hebrews 9:11-28, Revelation 21:1-4)

Heb. 9:11-28 takes place in the future when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven. But Scripture reveals that Jesus Himself, the Son of David, must first return to this earth to sit on His glorious throne (Lk. 1:32-33; Matt. 25:31; Rev. 3:21).

Hebrews 9:28 “so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”

Notice Jesus appears only once more! He does not come back for a “rapture” and then come back again a third time to rule on earth in the State of Israel for 1000 years.

You can’t possibly conclude this from that Scripture. The rapture of the church has nothing to do with Christ bearing sins. Keep in mind Jesus doesn’t actually return to this earth at the time of the rapture but meets His Bride in the air.

When He comes back the second and final time, then those who are alive are changed instantly from mortal bodies to immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:17) and then we all meet before His throne for our judgment. This day that He comes back is also Judgment Day. There is only one Day of the Lord.

Those Scriptures are written to the church. The “dead in Christ” (those of the church who had died) are bodily resurrected first, and we who are alive at that time do not experience death but are changed instantly from life to LIFE. This fulfills the “blessed hope” of the church, who’s citizenship is in heaven, when Christ transforms the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory (Phil. 3:20-21). This is no “Judgment Day” for the church. You confound your idea of what you think “Judgment Day” is with what the Bible reveals to be the “Day of the Lord.” You’re quite confused on all of this.

When we “meet Him in the air,” (1 Thessalonians 4:17) then we will always be with the Lord. Since this is true, then Jesus will definitely not be in the State of Israel on earth in Jerusalem ruling for 1000 years! We can not all be with Him always as He promised if He is away from heaven and on earth ruling an earthly kingdom for 1000 years. This is an impossibility!

The church returns with Christ. Where the Lord is, we are too (by “church” I don’t mean the RCC).

When covenants are broken, then “forever” is no longer in effect.

You fail to comprehend the difference between a conditional and unconditional covenant. In an unconditional covenant God says, “I will…”

You do not understand the Majesty of God. There is no way that Jesus will have a physical kingdom in Jerusalem in the State of Israel,

I understand the Majesty of God, you don’t believe the Scriptures.

Do you believe that Jesus will make a covenant (other than the present New Covenant) with remnant Israel? If you do not, then I misunderstood you and I apologize.

God will yet establish the New Covenant, literally, “with the house of Israel and the house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31). Christ inaugurated the New Covenant in His blood 2000 years ago on the cross and the church He’s presenting building, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles, enters into a grace relationship with God through the blood of that Covenant; but the New Covenant itself will be established with national Israel when Christ Himself returns to set up His Millennial reign on earth. As God Himself states in the New Covenant itself:Jer 31:35-40 "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; the Lord of hosts is His name: “If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the Lord, "then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever.” Thus says the LORD, “If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done,” declares the Lord. “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."Look up in the sky, SHW, the fixed order is still there. Israel will be a nation before the Lord. “Rebuilt” and not “overthrown anymore” are not words that refer to the New Jerusalem. You just don’t believe His Word about His covenant relationship with national Israel. Paul calls this Gentile arrogance.

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

verse 22"…But for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."Since the church is gone there is no more elect left on earth.

It is true that those who make up the church Christ is presently building are God’s elect. But there are other “elect;” such as the elect nation of Israel, and the elect holy angels (1 Tim. 5:21). At the time of Christ’s return there will be believing Jews and Gentiles living on earth. Those believing Jews (Jewish remnant) and those believing Gentiles (His “sheep” among the nations in Matt. 25:32ff) will enter His Millennial Kingdom as mortals. The “elect” in Matt. 24:22 refers to believers on earth at the time of Christ’s return. Matt. 24 is an earthly scene and the church is not on earth at that time, but with her Lord in heaven. She returns with Him. Those elect, believing Jews and Gentiles, on earth at the time of His return are not part of the church.

 

[SHW]

“The Jews” chose nothing of the sort. Spoken like an arrogant Gentile. Read the text:

Mark 15:15-18 "Wishing to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. The soldiers took Him away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium), and they called together the whole {Roman} cohort. They dressed Him up in purple, and after twisting a crown of thorns, they put it on Him; and they began to acclaim Him, "Hail, King of the Jews!"

Who’s the “they” in the above passage? Were there any Jews involved in the constructing of that “crown?”

Yes, it is the soldiers who took their cue from Pilate who declared Him the “King of the Jews.” But, it is the Jews who condemned Him to this death which made it possible for the soldiers to ill-treat Him. If the Jews had not condemned Him to death, then the soldiers would not have been able to crown Him with thorns and robe Him in purple. It is the Jews who made it possible for His kingship to be mocked. They are ultimately responsible.

Yet you still believe sin can eternally condemn you, rendering the cross insignificant.

The cross is never insignificant. There is no salvation without the cross. But the cross is the beginning of salvation, not the end of it.

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

We must imitate His life in order to actually inherit eternal life. Notice the cross is not the “end all?” There is much more to be done!

So, what must we do, after He redeems us, in order to inherit eternal life?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”

We must do the Will of His Father. What is this Will of His Father?

Luke 10:25-28 "And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

We must obey God’s commandments and love our neighbor by providing for his needs as best we can if he needs our help (James 2:14-26). We are ultimately saved by faith working through love, and not faith alone (Galatians 5:6).

You really need to stop lumping all “laws” into “works of the law.” They are not the same thing. The “works of the law” which were abolished were the “laws of commandments contained in ordinances” (Ephesians 2:15, Hebrews 9:1-10) The Royal Law has never been abrogated and never will be. It precedes the Old Covenant and is not abolished by the New Covenant. The Royal Law is part of the Gospel of Jesus.

Royal Law: (Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:19-25, Luke 10:25-28, James 2:8)

Heb. 9:11-28 takes place in the future when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven. But Scripture reveals that Jesus Himself, the Son of David, must first return to this earth to sit on His glorious throne (Lk. 1:32-33; Matt. 25:31; Rev. 3:21).

The Church is the New Jerusalem. Jesus is its temple. However, not all members are in heaven yet and won’t be until He returns at His Second Coming.(Revelation 21:22-24)

Revelation 21:9-11 “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God.”
**
The Church (Heavenly Jerusalem) is His Bride, not the earthly Jerusalem in the State of Israel.** Ephesians 5:22-23 “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.” The Church is the Bride of Christ.

You can’t possibly conclude this from that Scripture. The rapture of the church has nothing to do with Christ bearing sins. Keep in mind Jesus doesn’t actually return to this earth at the time of the rapture but meets His Bride in the air."

You are incorrect. Jesus only returns once more and He does not even put His feet on the ground. Earth is His footstool, never His throne. (Isaiah 66:1-2, Acts 7:48-50) I am happy to see that you admit that the Bride is the Church. Perhaps now you can understand Revelation 21 with the Church being the heavenly Jerusalem, Christ’s Bride, and not an earthly kingdom.

You confound your idea of what you think “Judgment Day” is with what the Bible reveals to be the “Day of the Lord.” You’re quite confused on all of this.

I am not confused. Judgment Day and Day of the Lord are the same exact Day.

You fail to comprehend the difference between a conditional and unconditional covenant. In an unconditional covenant God says, “I will…”

Genesis 6:7 "So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

He did not destroy all men. Enoch and family were saved. (Exodus 32:9-11) He did not destroy them. (Exodus 32:30-35)

The Jews rejected Jesus. They brought the curses of breaking the Old Covenant upon themselves. (Matthew 23:14, Matthew 23:29-39) The Old Covenant is no longer in force and only a remnant of the Jews will still be saved at the end of time.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

The Romans slaughtered swine in the temple c. 70 A.D. according to Josephus the Jewish historian. This is the abomination of desolation that Jesus was speaking of.
ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-1.htm The Temple stones fall just as Jesus predicts. Jesus is speaking of His disciples witnessing this event. He states, “When “you” see the abomination of desolation…”

This is completely untrue historically. Josephus records that Titus entered the Holy Place of the Temple when it was burning, looked at it and then left. (Wars; Book vi; chp. 7). Titus was against the burning of the Temple but the Roman soldiers believed there was gold hidden in its walls. The Romans did not slaughter swine in the Temple in 70 A.D. The “Abomination of Desolation” is yet future. That event takes place just prior to Christ’s second advent.

 

[moondweller]

Yes, it is the soldiers who took their cue from Pilate who declared Him the “King of the Jews.” But, it is the Jews who condemned Him to this death which made it possible for the soldiers to ill-treat Him. If the Jews had not condemned Him to death, then the soldiers would not have been able to crown Him with thorns and robe Him in purple. It is the Jews who made it possible for His kingship to be mocked. They are ultimately responsible.

You’re rationalizing.

The cross is never insignificant. There is no salvation without the cross. But the cross is the beginning of salvation, not the end of it.

Yes, for Catholics. You must complete salvation by works.

The Church is the New Jerusalem. Jesus is its temple. However, not all members are in heaven yet and won’t be until He returns at His Second Coming.(Revelation 21:22-24)You’re spiritualizing.

I am not confused. Judgment Day

and Day of the Lord are the same exact Day.Yes, you’re extremely confused. Try doing a Biblical study on the “Day of the Lord.” Much of it’s described in the O.T. by the ancient Hebrew prophets. According to Paul the church won’t experience it.

 

[SHW]

God will yet establish the New Covenant, literally, “with the house of Israel and the house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31). Christ inaugurated the New Covenant in His blood 2000 years ago on the cross and the church He’s presenting building, calling it out from both individual Jews and Gentiles, enters into a grace relationship with God through the blood of that Covenant; but the New Covenant itself will be established with national Israel when Christ Himself returns to set up His Millennial reign on earth. As God Himself states in the New Covenant itself:

Jer 31:35-40 "Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; the Lord of hosts is His name: "If this fixed order departs from before Me," declares the Lord, "then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever." Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done," declares the Lord. "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when the city will be rebuilt for the Lord from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah. And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the Lord; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever."

Look up in the sky, SHW, the fixed order is still there. Israel will be a nation before the Lord. “Rebuilt” and not “overthrown anymore” are not words that refer to the New Jerusalem. You just don’t believe His Word about His covenant relationship with national Israel. Paul calls this Gentile arrogance.

Jeremiah prophesied this New Jerusalem, the Church. He uses common language in describing it, but he is speaking of the greatness and permanence of this New heavenly Jerusalem, using human terms. Jesus creates incorruptible new heavens and new earth when He returns at His Second Coming. The Church is the New Jerusalem; it is not a literal earthly kingdom in Israel. (Revelation 21)

However, an earthly Third Temple is now in the planning stages. This temple will never be the temple of God again (Hebrews 9:11-12) but Jerusalem will become the seat of the Antichrist. The New Jerusalem, His Church, is His everlasting temple. (Revelation 21:22)

The writer of Hebrews is explaining that Jeremiah 31:31-33 was fulfilled with Jesus’ New Covenant:

Hebrews 8:7-9 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.”
**
This was literally a done deal 2000 years ago.** Jesus will not be ruling a literal kingdom on earth in Jerusalem in the State of Israel. **Part of the remnant of Israel **came into the Church at the time of the Apostles 2000 years ago. **The rest of the remnant of Israel **will come in after Enoch and Elijah witness to them shortly before the end of time during the time of Antichrist. Jesus returns in order to gather up His kingdom so that He can judge the living and the dead and this happens shortly after the remaining remnant of Israel joins His Church. (Romans 9:27-28, Matthew 24:29-30)

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

This is completely untrue historically. Josephus records that Titus entered the Holy Place of the Temple when it was burning, looked at it and then left. (Wars; Book vi; chp. 7). Titus was against the burning of the Temple but the Roman soldiers believed there was gold hidden in its walls. The Romans did not slaughter swine in the Temple in 70 A.D. The “Abomination of Desolation” is yet future. That event takes place just prior to Christ’s second advent.

So, you’re saying they made this up? The CCEL is a reliable organization.

I believe there will be another “abomination of desolation” at the end of time.

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

You’re rationalizing.Yes, for Catholics. You must complete salvation by works.You’re spiritualizing.Yes, you’re extremely confused. Try doing a Biblical study on the “Day of the Lord.” Much of it’s described in the O.T. by the ancient Hebrew prophets. According to Paul the church won’t experience it.

Yes, Moondweller knows all.

Actually, it is only your own interpretation of Scripture by which you judge that “according to Paul the Church won’t experience it.” You really cannot know for sure if you are only relying on your own interpretation or even others of the past 500 years of Protestant theology. I’ll continue to believe 2000 years of Church teaching instead of only 500 years.

(2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Timothy 4:3-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Timothy 3:15, Galatians 1:9)

We’ve gotten way off topic. Let’s just agree to disagree. If you want to start a new thread about all of this other stuff, fine, go ahead.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

So, you’re saying they made this up? The CCEL is a reliable organization.

The link you provided doesn’t cover 70 A.D. Only up to the time of Herod the Great. You’re confused with Antiochus Epiphanes.

I believe there will be another “abomination of desolation” at the end of time.

It won’t be “another one.” But what Paul says in 2 Thess. 2:4 is what Jesus was referring to in Matt. 24:15.

 

[moondweller]

Jeremiah prophesied this New Jerusalem, the Church.

Jeremiah prophesied of the New Covenant that the Lord will establish with “the house of Israel and the house of Judah,” i.e., the nation of Israel. Also, a favorite theme of his is that the Lord will “restore the fortunes of Israel.”

Ezekiel prophesied of the New Jerusalem, even giving its dimensions.

You’re confusing your O.T. prophets.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

Originally Posted by AmbroseSJ
So the opposite of oppression with an irrational bigotry, would be freedom of rational thought and opinion.
Protestants, and bac’s especially are oppressed with irrational bigotry.

But it’s Catholicism that asserts an “infallible” Magisterium. And Catholics (Western) cannot question or form an opinion contrary to that “infallible” voice.

You are confused and ignorant. We are not subject to an “infallible voice” that prevents us from having questions or opinions. That is a gross misunderstanding and exaggeration.

moondweller:

AmbroseSJ:

Remember when I questioned you about whether you learned your doctrine from men? You staunchly denied it, even though you most certainly did, as none of what you say is explicitly in the Scriptures.

What I present eschatologically most certainly IS explicitly revealed in the prophetic Scriptures. I allow Israel to remain Israel, Jerusalem to remain Jerusalem and Zion to remain Zion. I allow the text itself to dictate whether or not I, the reader, should understand it figuratively or not. This is not at all what the Amillennialist does, but rather forces a spiritual interpretation on the text in order to conform it to his preconceived ideas.

Everyone that reads the Scripture could say exactly the same thing to you; that the text itself dictates blah blah blah. Your mind is clouded with an irrational bigotry. One thing the Catholic Church would NEVER do, is what YOU DO. You say you must believe this interpretation BECAUSE I SAY SO. The Church always explains in very great detail, why Scriptures are interpreted in such and such a way. These interpretations have been expounded by the Holy Martyrs, Saints, Fathers, Doctors, and Teachers of the Church for the last 2000 years. You are unable to do the same. You are a broken record… The text itself dictates blah blah blah… You have spiritualized, allegorized and rationalized, blah blah blah.

moondweller:

AmbroseSJ:

Nor is there any injuction in the Scripture to prevent readers from spiritualizing, allegorizing or rationalizing the Scriptures.

Why should there be? That’s an irrational statement.

This is the MOST irrational thing you have said yet! Why would there be such a BAN on spiritualizing, allegorizing and rationalizing the Scripture, unless it said so in Scripture??? You have swallowed the poisonous doctrine of the bacs and believe it more than you do the Sacred Scriptures. You conjure up a “rule” whereby Sacred Scripture must be interpreted, yet it is completely unscriptural, and you think it is irrational for it to be there!!! Yet you think it is so important, everything you decide Scripture says, must conform to this conjured up non-Scriptural “rule” which you have swallowed without any question or opinion??? Now who’s living under the oppression of an irrational bigotry?