What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[SHW]

Nice post!
And between the particular and general judgments the soul is purified (if necessary).

I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." (Luke 12:59)

Thanks.

Unfortunately, Purgatory is probably in my future! However, I will know that I am saved, so that will be consolation for me.

I do pray the Prayer for Daily Neglects after my Act of Contrition before I go to sleep in the hope that it will shorten my stay there. An Examination of Conscience is good to do before the Act of Contrition.

I found a copy (which I modified a bit) online of the Prayer for Daily Neglects for everyone:

Prayer for Daily Neglects

Eternal Father,
I offer Thee the Sacred Heart of Jesus,
with all its love,
all its sufferings and all its merits.

First — To expiate all the sins
I have committed this day and during all my life.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world
without end. Amen.

Second — To purify the good I have done poorly
this day and during all my life.

Glory be…

Third — To supply for the good I ought to have done,
and that I have neglected this day and all my life.

Glory be…

---

A Poor Clare sister who had just died, appeared to her
Abbess who was praying for her, and said to her: “I
went straight to heaven, for, by means of this prayer,
recited every evening, I paid all my debts.”

---

From:
http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?cb300=vocations&p=655

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Thank you.

 

[moondweller]

ryanoneil:

There you have it. During the fourth kingdom (Roman empire), the Messianic Kingdom will be established.

But you believe a 2,000+ year pause is in scipture (where one doesn’t exist), Right?

Without inserting a 2,000+ year parenthesis, you would be forced to recognize that the eternal Kingdom of Christ was set up at His first advent (which is the Church that exists in heaven and on earth).

It’s called a “prophetic gap.” Another one is clearly seen in Zech. 9:9 and 10. Zech. 9:9 was fulfilled at Christ’s first coming as recorded in Matthew’s gospel account:Matt 21:1-5 "When they had approached Jerusalem and had come to Bethphage, at the Mount of Olives, then Jesus sent two disciples, saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find a donkey tied {there} and a colt with her; untie them and bring them to Me. If anyone says anything to you, you shall say, ‘The Lord has need of them,’ and immediately he will send them.” This took place to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "Say to the daughter of Zion, 'Behold your king is coming to you, gentle, and mounted on a donkey, even a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’"Matthew quotes only verse nine of Zechariah nine. Only that part of the prophecy was fulfilled at Christ first advent. Verse ten is not quoted because it won’t be fulfilled until His second advent when He sets up His Millennial kingdom on earth.

You see another prophetic gap in Zech. 13:7-9. Verse seven was fulfilled at Christ’s first advent as quoted by Christ in Matthew 26:31. Verses 8-9 of Zech. 13 were not quoted by Christ because they will not see their fulfillment until the yet future Tribulation period when a remnant of Jews (the third portion) will come through it, believe, and be ushered into His earthly, Millennial Kingdom.

In Daniel chapters two and seven the “times of the Gentiles” are revealed. They began with the Babylonian captivity of Israel, then with the rise of the Medo-Persian Empire, followed by the Greek and then the rise of a fourth kingdom: “strong as iron,” which crushes the previous kingdoms (Dan. 2:36-43).

This fourth kingdom of course was the Roman Empire at its zenith. It’s the last Gentile Empire that will have dominion on earth in relation to Israel before the Kingdom Christ Himself will set up.

The prophecy rightly indicates that no other Gentile kingdom ever replaced the fourth kingdom but rather that it takes on another form in it’s latter days. That being divided into ten kingdoms (ten toes) which have strength (iron) but at the same time weakness (brittle clay, Dan. 2:40-43)." It’s during the latter days of that revived kingdom that(v. 44) "…the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and {that} kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy."There’s a prophetic time gap from when the fourth kingdom first comes on the scene in great power and when it takes its final form of 10 kingdoms.

Jesus said that Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until “the times of the Gentiles” are fulfilled. The “times of the Gentiles” are not yet fulfilled and that’s why we see Jerusalem still trampled under foot by Gentiles. The last invasion will be Antichrist’s. At that time the Son of David returns and the future fate of Antichrist is recorded in Rev. 19:11-21.

This is all future. Prophetic gaps are not uncommon in Scripture.

Check your New Scofield Reference Bible which demolishes your claim. The parallel passages in Luke 21:20-24 were entirely fulfilled in 70 A.D. Also check your footnotes on Mat 24:16.

Read the NSRB notes again more carefully. It’s correct in pointing out that in Matt. 24:15 the sign is the “Abomination of Desolation;” whereas in Luke 21:20 its Jerusalem being surrounded by armies. The former happens at the end of the age and the latter already occurred in 70 A.D. They’re two entirely different events separated by at least 2 millennia.

In Lk. 21:24 Jesus goes on to say:"…and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.But in Matt. 24 He goes on to describe the great Tribulation at the end of the age (known as “Jacob’s trouble” in Jer. 30:7) and culminating in the second advent of Jesus Christ.

So you see, the Matthew and Luke passages are similar but only Luke addresses the events that happened in 70 A.D. Matthew does not.

 

[moondweller]

It would help you out a lot with understanding the Bible if you could set aside the post-millennial stuff that has you hoodwinked into believing that it will be a physical kingdom.

I’m not postmillennial, I’m premillennial. As was the dominate view of the early church until the 4th century.

Jesus states that His kingdom is not of this earth. We should believe Him. His tabernacle/temple (physical dwelling place for His whole Person) is not on earth and never will be, as stated in Isaiah and repeated in Acts.

I already addressed this. He said My kingdom is not of this “kosmos.” Meaning not of this “world system.” As Scripture points out, this world system is held in the grips of the evil one. Christ will set up His righteous kingdom when He returns, and at that time bind Satan for 1000 years and throw Antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire.

It’s all right there in Scripture. No need to spiritualize it to fit your own preconceived ideas - or, more accurately, that of your church leadership. I, for one, will follow and believe the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

---

A Poor Clare sister who had just died, appeared to her
Abbess who was praying for her, and said to her: “I
went straight to heaven, for, by means of this prayer,
recited every evening, I paid all my debts.”

---

How so contrary this is to Divine revelation:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[SHW]

How so contrary this is to Divine revelation:Col 2:13-14 "When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

“The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us” is the “law of commandments contained in ordinances.” I prefer the RSV translation:

Colossians 2
13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:10-16 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity."

Galatians 5:3 “And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.”

This means that the Jewish laws of circumcision, ritual purity, kosher dietary prescriptions, and the Jewish festal calendar are, now that we are under the New Covenant in Christ, entirely irrelevant to our salvation. Keeping the ceremonial Law of Moses is not necessary for Christians. What is important is keeping “the law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2) which is summarized as “faith working through love” (also translated as “faith made effective through love” [Gal. 5:6]).

We are required to keep the “law of love.” And, we will not be saved if we turn from being “sons of God” to become instead “sons of disobedience.”

Galatians 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.”

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

You deceive with empty words when you state that we are saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Why do you not believe Scripture? You can and will lose your salvation if you commit sins that “lead to death” (loss of salvation). (Proverbs 11:19, Romans 6:16, 1 John 5:16-17)

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

I’m not postmillennial, I’m premillennial. As was the dominate view of the early church until the 4th century.I already addressed this. He said My kingdom is not of this “kosmos.” Meaning not of this “world system.” As Scripture points out, this world system is held in the grips of the evil one. Christ will set up His righteous kingdom when He returns, and at that time bind Satan for 1000 years and throw Antichrist and the false prophet into the lake of fire.

It’s all right there in Scripture. No need to spiritualize it to fit your own preconceived ideas - or, more accurately, that of your church leadership. I, for one, will follow and believe the Scriptures.

I should have said pre-millennial. Sorry! What matters is what the Church decided on, when this topic came up. Persons are entitled to voice their opinions and discuss them until a decision is made by the Church’s teaching office. The Church states that this pre-millennialism theory cannot be safely taught. The “Church age” on earth before the coming of Antichrist is the “thousand years.”

And your “following and believing” the Scriptures is simply your “opinion” based on your own “interpretations.” Peter warns against this:

2 Peter 1:19-21 - 2 Peter 20 “And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”

Earth is His footstool. This is plain. It will never be His throne. Jesus will not be setting up an earthly throne. It is contrary to Scripture.

Acts 7:48-51 "But it was Solomon who built a house for him.
48 Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands; as the prophet says, 49 `Heaven is my throne, and earth my footstool. What house will you build for me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?
50 Did not my hand make all these things?'
51 "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

It is absurd to think that Jesus will return to earth to rule an earthly kingdom. His throne is in HEAVEN, not on earth! You are acting as the Jews even though you do not realize it. You refuse to believe (stiff-necked is what Scripture calls it) because you believe like these Jews, that the Messiah will rule an earthly kingdom. They believe that He will be a powerful military leader who will vanquish the Jews’ enemies. And as Scripture points out, it is not going to happen!!!

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

It’s called a “prophetic gap.” Another one is clearly seen in Zech. 9:9 and 10. Zech. 9:9 was fulfilled at Christ’s first coming as recorded in Matthew’s gospel account. You see another prophetic gap in Zech. 13:7-9. Verse seven was fulfilled at Christ’s first advent as quoted by Christ in Matthew 26:31. Verses 8-9 of Zech. 13 were not quoted by Christ because they will not see their fulfillment until the yet future Tribulation period when a remnant of Jews (the third portion) will come through it, believe, and be ushered into His earthly, Millennial Kingdom.

Your “phophetic gap” causes three round trips of 2,000+ years in both forward and reverse modes. The text gives gives us no hint of any repeated “back to the future” time warps. You are forcing the text to fit with your theology by inserting something that is not there.

The same is true of Daniel. He laid out a precise time line. 70 weeks is 70 weeks. There is no resurrected fourth kingdom. If two kingdoms happen to be in the same geographical area, they cannot be considered one and the same if they are seperated by millenia. This stretches logic to the breaking point and isn’t mentioned once in Daniels time line.

 

[moondweller]

“The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us” is the “law of commandments contained in ordinances.” I prefer the RSV translation:

You are one confused fella. You’re confusing Col. 2:13-14 with Eph. 2:14-15 by mixing the contexts.

“The Law of Commandments contained in ordinances” in Eph. 2:15 is certainly the Mosaic Covenant which ended at the cross of Christ. It’s the Divine covenant that God made with national Israel at Mt. Sinai which then separated Israel from the Gentile nations described in the previous verses as “dead in trespasses and sins,” “sons of disobedience,” “by nature children of wrath,” “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,” and “having no hope and without God in the world.” Before Christ Gentiles, corporately, were steeped in polytheistic paganism (people today tend to forget this having had 2000 years of Christianity). The one true God was revealed and known only through national Israel, God’s covenant nation. As Jesus Himself said:“You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22).But Paul is saying in those Ephesian passages that Christ, through the cross, broke down that dividing wall, and that “IN HIMSELF” He makes the two (individual Jews and Gentiles) into ONE new man (i.e., the church/body of Christ); thus, in Him, peace is established between the two peoples (Jews and Gentiles), with both being reconciled in one body (the church) to God through the cross, and both now having access in one Spirit to the Father (Eph. 2:15-18) .

The “enmity,” the “dividing wall” (the Law) which was broken down in Christ (Eph. 2:14-15) is an allusion to the Temple in Jerusalem in which there existed a “court of the Gentiles” with a wall that separated it from the court of the Jews. In fact, there was an inscription on that wall which warned Gentiles from entering the court of the Jews upon penalty of death. But during this church age that wall has been abolished and Christ is now building His church by calling it out from both (individual) Jews and Gentiles, through faith in Him alone.

Now in Colossians Paul is directly addressing those Gentiles that are already a part of the Body of Christ through faith in Him. He says that “in Him” they “have been made complete” (Col. 2:10), that is, “in Him” they “have redemption, the forgiveness of sins” (Col. 1:15). IOW, they’re not presently in the process of being redeemed, nor presently in the process of being forgiven of sins, but now “in Him” they’ve been made complete; they HAVE redemption, they HAVE the forgiveness of sins (cf. Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14).

Again in Colossians, as in the Ephesians passage, Paul describes the Gentiles as having once been dead in their transgressions and uncircumcision of their flesh. That is, as Gentiles, corporately they were separated from God by both sins and covenants. But now these believing Gentiles God Himself has “made alive together with Christ (resurrected),” having forgiven them ALL their transgressions (through the cross), having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against them, taken it out of the way, and nailed it to the cross.

The strong allusion here is not to the Law, since Gentiles were never under the jurisdiction of the Law - INCLUDING the Decalogue, but to that of an ancient document, or statement of indebtedness, signed by the debtor himself. When the debt was paid in full the document was then nailed to the wooden door of the one indebted with the inscription PAID. The complete picture here is that of Christ, who Himself paid our debt in full for us (since it was impossible for us to pay) through the sacrifice of Himself. Our debt was cancelled, paid in full, and God has taken out of the way (forever) through the, once for all, substitutionary, expiatory, propitiatory, sin sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. The redemptive price paid for our sins was His blood.

Now it really can’t get any clearer than that, SHW. What keeps you from understanding it all is your unbelief. But the Apostolic message is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31-32; 18:8).

 

[moondweller]

ryanoneil:

Your “phophetic gap” causes three round trips of 2,000+ years in both forward and reverse modes. The text gives gives us no hint of any repeated “back to the future” time warps. You are forcing the text to fit with your theology by inserting something that is not there.

The same is true of Daniel. He laid out a precise time line. 70 weeks is 70 weeks. There is no resurrected fourth kingdom. If two kingdoms happen to be in the same geographical area, they cannot be considered one and the same if they are seperated by millenia. This stretches logic to the breaking point and isn’t mentioned once in Daniels time line.

What you fail to understand, Ryan, is that this church age, this present time when Christ is building His church, calling it out from both (individual) Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him alone, was not made known to the ancient Hebrew prophets. They prophesied only of events pertaining to their nation; which included its Messiah, the events surrounding His first advent, His second, and the promised kingdom He would usher in at His arrival. Since this church age was not seen by, or revealed to, those ancient prophets, so naturally there would be an unforeseen and indefinite gap between Messiah’s first advent and His second. It’s unavoidable. This is what Paul means when he warns Gentile Christendom:Rom 11:25 “For I do not want you, (Gentile) brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” (i.e., into the church Christ is presently building).Then after the church is taken out God will again turn to national Israel to fulfill all those ancient prophetic and covenant promises He made to that nation and her Messiah.

For this reason when Jesus’ disciples asked if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel, He told them that it was not for them to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but instead they would receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon them; and they would be His witnesses (of His death and bodily resurrection) both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth (Acts. 1:7-8). IOW, they would come to see and understand that it was not the time for the Messianic Kingdom revealed by their ancient prophets, but the time when Christ is building His church through faith in Him alone (Matt. 16:18).

The Book of Acts and the Epistles explain this glorious church age and the unique doctrines that pertain specifically to this time in man’s history.

 

[ryanoneil]

What you fail to understand, Ryan, is that this church age, this present time when Christ is building His church, calling it out from both (individual) Jews and Gentiles through faith in Him alone, was not made known to the ancient Hebrew prophets. They prophesied only of events pertaining to their nation; which included its Messiah, the events surrounding His first advent, His second, and the promised kingdom He would usher in at His arrival. Since this church age was not seen by, or revealed to, those ancient prophets, so naturally there would be an unforeseen and indefinite gap between Messiah’s first advent and His second. It’s unavoidable.

That is inaccurate. The covenant with David changes the character of God’s covenant people from a nation state to that of an international kingdom, a worldwide empire where "all the tribes and nations of the earth would be blessed (read Psalm 72). What you and the prophets did not understand is: the Church age IS the Messianic age.

In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe, who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (Heb 1:1-4)

We are in the “last day” now. There will be no new age. At the end of this age is eternity.

This is what Paul means when he warns Gentile Christendom:Rom 11:25 “For I do not want you, (Gentile) brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery–so that you will not be wise in your own estimation–that a partial hardening has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” (i.e., into the church Christ is presently building).Then after the church is taken out God will again turn to national Israel to fulfill all those ancient prophetic and covenant promises He made to that nation and her Messiah.

Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: ‘You shall indeed hear but not understand you shall indeed look but never see. Gross is the heart of this people, they will hardly hear with their ears, they have closed their eyes, lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and be converted, and I heal them.’ "But blessed are your eyes, because they see, and your ears, because they hear. Amen, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. (Mt 13:14-17)

All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables. He spoke to them only in parables, to fulfill what had been said through the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables, I will announce what has lain hidden from the foundation (of the world).” (Mt 13:34-35)

Christ is not speaking of two different ages in the parables. He is speaking of the one Messianic Church age. The wheat and the weed will grow side by side until the end of time. The Church will not be taken out. Sinners will be taken out of the kingdom and burned, and the heavenly Jerusalem will come.

All Paul is saying is that part of Israel will always be hardened until the very end of time.

For this reason when Jesus’ disciples asked if it was at this time He was restoring the kingdom to Israel, He told them that it was not for them to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but instead they would receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon them; and they would be His witnesses (of His death and bodily resurrection) both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth (Acts. 1:7-8). IOW, they would come to see and understand that it was not the time for the Messianic Kingdom revealed by their ancient prophets, but the time when Christ is building His church through faith in Him alone (Matt. 16:18).

The Book of Acts and the Epistles explain this glorious church age and the unique doctrines that pertain specifically to this time in man’s history.

Acts 1-7 shows Judah and Jerusalem raised to new life. Acts 8 shows the Samaratins, ,who were descendants of the first Israelite tribes that split away from David’s empire, restored. Acts 10-28 shows the converstion of the nations beyond Israel, which is the international kingdom gathered around the Davidic Kingdom. What the apostles were waiting for and didn’t happen in Acts, was the removal of the false shepards and the end of the Old Covenant age. The Church is the mustard seed that grows into a bush and it is the stone that turns into a mountain.

 

[SHW]

Now it really can’t get any clearer than that, SHW. What keeps you from understanding it all is your unbelief. But the Apostolic message is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31-32; 18:8).

What you do not understand, is that there is a difference between redemption and final salvation.

Yes, Jesus redeemed us by His sacrificial death on the cross. He opened the gates of heaven by doing so, so that we can then inherit eternal life with Him in heaven. Jesus died for our sins and paid the debt for Adam’s sin, but we are still responsible for our own actions and these actions determine whether we inherit eternal life or not, after our initial salvation through the Sacrament of Baptism.

If we do not obey His gospel, then we will not inherit eternal life. Scripture states that those who do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ will not be saved. His gospel consists of loving God and neighbor. We must do this in order to remain justified. We must continue to abide in Christ until death in order to inherit eternal life. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Matthew 19:17, Revelation 22:14)

You keep thinking that once you are baptized and/or accept Jesus as your Savior (if you don’t happen to believe in Baptism), then you are automatically saved for eternity. This is contrary to the gospel of Christ.

We have to be approved (found worthy) for our crowns, we do not receive them automatically. (James 1:12, 2 Thessalonians 1:10-12, Revelation 3:4, Revelation 2:10)

Please explain James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

You have to believe this Scripture also. It is God’s Word. Why don’t you believe it? It specifically denies “faith alone” as a true dogma. “Faith Alone” is a false dogma. I am not the one having a hard time believing the truth; you are the one who is stiff-necked, as Scripture points out, as one of those who refuse to believe the truth. Both faith and works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life. And, if you think you found a Scripture which states otherwise, then you are misinterpreting that Scripture.

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”

If we sin deliberately after we are saved, then we lose our salvation. There is no way to get around this incontrovertible fact!

Hebrews 10:26-39 "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.
28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings,
33 sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated.
34 For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one.
35 Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.
37 "For yet a little while, and the coming one shall come and shall not tarry;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and keep their souls.

You cannot discount these Scriptures which prove your doctrine of “faith alone” to be a false doctrine. If we sin deliberately after we have come to the knowledge of the truth (after we are saved), then we are no longer saved. Instead, we receive God’s vengeance and we are destroyed.

True “faith” is “love” in “action.” (Galatians 5:6, Matthew 7:21)

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

That is inaccurate.

Actually, it’s totally accurate. The Hebrews prophets were revealed nothing of the church which Christ is now building upon the foundation of the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:18-22), called out from individual, believing Jews and Gentiles. A mystery which Paul says: “when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;” (Eph. 3:4-5). It was certainly revealed to the Hebrew prophets that believing Gentiles would enjoy the blessings of the Messianic Kingdom, but they knew nothing of this church age when both individual Jews and Gentiles would be reconciled to God in one body (the church) through the cross, making the two groups into “one new man” (Eph. 2:15).

The church was a mystery in Christ not revealed until Apostles; especially through Paul who was given great, doctrinal insight concerning this church age by Christ Himself (2 Cor. 12:1-8).

The covenant with David changes the character of God’s covenant people from a nation state to that of an international kingdom, a worldwide empire where "all the tribes and nations of the earth would be blessed (read Psalm 72).

No it doesn’t. The Covenant of David only promises that one of David’s sons would sit on his throne forever. It’s through other prophetic Scriptures that we see that the Messianic Kingdom will extend world wide (Dan. 2:35; Zech. 14:6-9). But this is all within the context of an earthly kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom. In fact, in order for you to come up with your eschatological theory you must spiritualize large bodies of the prophetic Scriptures, imposing on them your own preconceived ideas.

What you and the prophets did not understand is: the Church age IS the Messianic age.

Not according to the Hebrew prophets, Apostles and even Christ Himself. In fact Christ says He still looks forward to the time when He will yet sit on His glorious throne on earth (Rev. 3:21).

We are in the “last day” now. There will be no new age. At the end of this age is eternity.

Another assertion on your part (Eph. 1:21; 2:7; Heb. 6:5). You quoted Heb. 1:1-4 which states nothing about the kingdom age, nor of Christ now sitting on the throne of His father David. But instead it states that after He made purification of sins (a Divine truth that debunks “Purgatory”) He sat down down at the right hand of Majesty on High. When you read further into the Book of Hebrews you’ll learn that He functions there not as King but as the believer’s High Priest, serving there as his Intercessor and Advocate before the Father (Heb. 7:25; cf. 1 Jn. 2:1). To ascend His own glorious throne He must return to this earth (Lk. 1:32-33).

All Paul is saying is that part of Israel will always be hardened until the very end of time

Paul says nothing about “the end of time” in Rom. 11:25. He says, “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” You see how you must manipulate Scripture in order to conform it to your own preconceived ideas? In fact Paul warns against such Gentile arrogance in Romans chapter eleven. Keep in mind that this Epistle was written to the church at Rome, which we see is quite appropriate. Has Paul’s letter to the Roman church become a letter against the Roman church?

 

[moondweller]

What you do not understand, is that there is a difference between redemption and final salvation.

Define redemption according to the Scriptures.

Define salvation according to the Scriptures.

Yes, Jesus redeemed us by His sacrificial death on the cross. He opened the gates of heaven by doing so, so that we can then inherit eternal life with Him in heaven.

You mean the error of your thinking that you can merit eternal life (CCC 2027).

Jesus died for our sins and paid the debt for Adam’s sin,

So you deny that He paid YOUR debt. You disagree with Paul in Col. 2:13-14 that He has “forgiven us all OUR transgressions,” and that He “cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against US…,” but instead, contrary to Paul’s explicit teaching, restrict these truths to Adam only; whereas Paul uses the personal pronouns “our” and “us.” IOW, you refuse to believe Paul’s gospel.

but we are still responsible for our own actions and these actions determine whether we inherit eternal life or not, after our initial salvation through the Sacrament of Baptism.

And this is why you deny Paul’s gospel. Paul, throughout his Epistles, presents a salvation “by grace through faith”; yours is a “gospel” of works. These are two entirely different gospels, diametrically opposed one to the other.

If we sin deliberately after we are saved, then we lose our salvation. There is no way to get around this incontrovertible fact!

I understand when you see that the cross of Christ pertains to Adam’s sin (debt) alone, thereby rendering it insignificant to all others (Gal. 1:6-7).

You cannot discount these Scriptures which prove your doctrine of “faith alone” to be a false doctrine.

Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."I fully understand your opposition to Paul’s gospel. Unbelief is unbelief.

If we sin deliberately after we have come to the knowledge of the truth (after we are saved), then we are no longer saved. Instead, we receive God’s vengeance and we are destroyed.

Which is a “gospel” of works; rendering the cross of Christ insignificant in respect to the believer’s (1)“forgiveness of sins” and (2) the believer’s salvation (both being the Apostolic message).

Paul says that God, through the cross of Christ, cancels out the certificate of debt against us; you on the other hand cancel out the cross.

True “faith” is “love” in “action.” (Galatians 5:6, Matthew 7:21)

True FAITH rests in the Person and work on Another, accepts through faith the Apostolic message of salvation regarding redemption and the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ alone (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14).

 

[ryanoneil]

Actually, it’s totally accurate. The Hebrews prophets were revealed nothing of the church which Christ is now building upon the foundation of the Apostles and N.T. prophets, Christ Himself being the corner stone (Eph. 2:18-22), called out from individual, believing Jews and Gentiles. A mystery which Paul says: “when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;” (Eph. 3:4-5). It was certainly revealed to the Hebrew prophets that believing Gentiles would enjoy the blessings of the Messianic Kingdom, but they knew nothing of this church age when both individual Jews and Gentiles would be reconciled to God in one body (the church) through the cross, making the two groups into “one new man” (Eph. 2:15).

The church was a mystery in Christ not revealed until Apostles; especially through Paul who was given great, doctrinal insight concerning this church age by Christ Himself (2 Cor. 12:1-8).

I agree the OT revealed that the nations would be blessed, but it remained unclear how this would take place. So, of course the prophets didn’t fully understand about the Church, because they didn’t fully understand the nature of the kingdom and Christ’s Lordship. You forgot to include (Eph3:6).

that the Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and copartners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

And the gospel message was about the kingdom.

Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD: See, I am laying a stone in Zion, a stone that has been tested, A precious cornerstone as a sure foundation; he who puts his faith in it shall not be shaken. (Isa 28:16)

The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. (Ps 118:22)

This stone in Zion is the true and sure foundation of salvation promised by God to the Davidic dynasty.

For it says in scripture: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame.” Therefore, its value is for you who have faith, but for those without faith: “The stone which the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and “A stone that will make people stumble, and a rock that will make them fall.” They stumble by disobeying the word, as is their destiny. But you are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may announce the praises” of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were “no people” but now you are God’s people; you “had not received mercy” but now you have received mercy. (1 Peter 2:6-10)

but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law? Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling, as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.” (Rom 9:31-33)

for, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” (Rom 10:9-11)

The Church is the mystery of the Kingdom.

 

[ryanoneil]

No it doesn’t. The Covenant of David only promises that one of David’s sons would sit on his throne forever. It’s through other prophetic Scriptures that we see that the Messianic Kingdom will extend world wide (Dan. 2:35; Zech. 14:6-9). But this is all within the context of an earthly kingdom, not a spiritual kingdom. In fact, in order for you to come up with your eschatological theory you must spiritualize large bodies of the prophetic Scriptures, imposing on them your own preconceived ideas.

Maybe you should re-read 2 Sam 7:8-16. God repeats three times that He is making this covenant with David for “for My people Israel” (vesrse 8,10,11). This was done to fulfill God’s promise to Abraham. And the prophets talk about renewing the international kingdom.

Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David. As I made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of nations (Isa 55:3-4)

And as far as spiritualizing scripture. That is exactly what they did. Everytime they worried about their physical condition they got themselves in trouble. Especially when it came to wanting an earthly king.

 

[SHW]

Define redemption according to the Scriptures.

Define salvation according to the Scriptures.

Redemption is not completely explained in the Scriptures. It was taught through oral teaching.

Redemption: "Being “redeemed” is not necessarily the same thing as being “saved.” To redeem means to “buy back” or to “pay off” or to “discharge,” as in a debt. Jesus redeemed all of us in that He paid the price for all of us. He paid off the obligation that each and everyone of us owes, but which none of us could pay ourselves or collectively. He discharged the debt we all owe.

There is not a single person who has ever lived, or who will ever live, that Jesus did not die for. Jesus ransomed us all out of slavery. However, there are plenty of people who, even though the door to freedom is open to them, refuse to walk through. They reject freedom and instead choose slavery. The price of their redemption has been paid, but they nevertheless still live in slavery. Why? Because there is something they have to do in order to obtain freedom. They have to remove their shackles. They have to reject sin. They have to ask for forgiveness. They have to walk in the ways of the Lord. They have to love God and their neighbor. All of Israel was led out of Egypt, but only a few of those who were ransomed out of Egypt by the blood of the first born made it into the Promised Land.

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph #601 talks of the “mystery of universal redemption.” In #1067, the Catechism talks of Christ “redeeming mankind.” In other words, Christ has paid the price for all men’s sins. He has redeemed the world.

1 John 2:2 – ”…and He is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 Tim 4:10 – “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” Finally, Heb 9:26 – “But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

All men are redeemed, yet not all are saved. Which gets us back to our question: What is the difference between the redeemed and unsaved, and the redeemed and saved – is it something Jesus did, or is it something the saved did? Jesus has done His part for our salvation. The redeemed and unsaved have not done their part." —John Martignoni

Salvation: Those who do their part in imitating Christ’s life (those who abide in Christ) are saved. Those who do not do their part are not saved. We must remain in the grace of God after our Baptisms in order to inherit eternal life. How do we do this?

We remain in the state of grace by obeying God’s commandments and thereby loving God and neighbor which I have documented by Scripture in previous posts. If we sin deliberately after we are saved, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us. (Hebrews 10:26-39) Believe it! It’s true!

Since you claim to believe and understand Scripture, then why do you not obey 2 Thessalonians 2:15? “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

You mean the error of your thinking that you can merit eternal life (CCC 2027).So you deny that He paid YOUR debt. You disagree with Paul in Col. 2:13-14 that He has “forgiven us all OUR transgressions,” and that He “cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against US…,” but instead, contrary to Paul’s explicit teaching, restrict these truths to Adam only; whereas Paul uses the personal pronouns “our” and “us.” IOW, you refuse to believe Paul’s gospel.And this is why you deny Paul’s gospel. Paul, throughout his Epistles, presents a salvation “by grace through faith”; yours is a “gospel” of works. These are two entirely different gospels, diametrically opposed one to the other.I understand when you see that the cross of Christ pertains to Adam’s sin (debt) alone, thereby rendering it insignificant to all others (Gal. 1:6-7).Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."I fully understand your opposition to Paul’s gospel. Unbelief is unbelief.Which is a “gospel” of works; rendering the cross of Christ insignificant in respect to the believer’s (1)“forgiveness of sins” and (2) the believer’s salvation (both being the Apostolic message).

Paul says that God, through the cross of Christ, cancels out the certificate of debt against us; you on the other hand cancel out the cross. True FAITH rests in the Person and work on Another, accepts through faith the Apostolic message of salvation regarding redemption and the forgiveness of sins through faith in Christ alone (Acts 10:43; 13:38; Col. 1:14).

I answered part of this above. I believe the gospel. You do not understand the gospel because you have not been taught by Jesus’ Church, the Catholic Church. The truth is passed down through the centuries through His Church which He built upon Peter.

2 Timothy 2:2 “and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”

We are saved by God’s grace alone. But we are not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

We are justified by our works as proof of our faith. You have a hard time believing what is very plain to see. We are not justified (saved) by faith alone. This is contrary to Scripture and you will not be convincing any Catholic Bible Christians otherwise.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

The Church is the mystery of the Kingdom.

The church was a “mystery,” but the church is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom (Messianic) was never a “mystery.” It was fully revealed to/by the ancient Hebrew prophets.

 

[SHW]

The church was a “mystery,” but the church is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom (Messianic) was never a “mystery.” It was fully revealed to/by the ancient Hebrew prophets.

There are several “mysteries” mentioned in Scripture. One of them is this:

Mark 4:10-12 “But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that
‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’
13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.””

We are not saved for eternity unless and until we endure to the end of our lives abiding in Christ. We must bear good fruit because by our fruits we are known and also judged by on Judgment Day. (Matthew 7:15-21, Revelation 3:2, Titus 3:14, Titus 1:16, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Acts 10:35)

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Revelation 3:4 “You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.”

Notice that these saved persons have not defiled their garments of salvation with sin and because of this reason, they are deemed worthy and therefore will walk with God in white?

If they had drawn back to perdition through sin, then they would not have been deemed worthy. (Hebrews 10:39)

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

Another assertion on your part (Eph. 1:21; 2:7; Heb. 6:5). You quoted Heb. 1:1-4 which states nothing about the kingdom age, nor of Christ now sitting on the throne of His father David. But instead it states that after He made purification of sins (a Divine truth that debunks “Purgatory”) He sat down down at the right hand of Majesty on High.

The age to come is eternity, otherwise the next age would be called the last days.

In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets; in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe, who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, as far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (Heb 1:1-4)

This next verse describes what happend right after Jesus’ ascension. He came to heaven on the clouds and recieved kingship (where He sits on the throne of David).

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

When you read further into the Book of Hebrews you’ll learn that He functions there not as King but as the believer’s High Priest, serving there as his Intercessor and Advocate before the Father (Heb. 7:25; cf. 1 Jn. 2:1). To ascend His own glorious throne He must return to this earth (Lk. 1:32-33).

That is incorrect. A priest after the order of Melchizedek posses ruling authority as a king as well as religious authority as a priest.

Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine, and being a priest of God Most High, he blessed Abram with these words: (Gen 14:18)

Luke says nothing about returning to this earth.

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies! Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” (Ps 110:1-4)

The main point of what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, (Heb 8:1)

It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

Don’t you think it is Interesting how the high priest king is sitting on his throne at the right hand of God (ruling and interceding)?