What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[ryanoneil]

The church was a “mystery,” but the church is not the Kingdom. The Kingdom (Messianic) was never a “mystery.” It was fully revealed to/by the ancient Hebrew prophets.

The church is not the fullness of the Kingdom but it is part of it.

**Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body. (1 Cor 6:19-20)

Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. (1 Cor 12:27)**

Jesus himself is the Kingdom. The Kingdom is not a thing or a geographical dominion like other worldy kingdoms. It is a person and it is He. It is not simply in Jesus’ physical presence that the Kingdom is located, it is in His action accomplished in the Holy Spirit. The Kingdom is the active lordship of the king.

**But if it is by the finger of God that (I) drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. (Lk 11:20)

Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he said in reply, “The coming of the kingdom of God cannot be observed, and no one will announce, ‘Look, here it is,’ or, ‘There it is.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.” (Lk 17:20-21)**

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Redemption is not completely explained in the Scriptures. It was taught through oral teaching.

Redemption most certainly is explained in the Scriptures, especially if you approach it from the Greek. It means to deliver by paying a price. Scriptures presents all of Adam’s race as slaves sold into sin (Rom. 7:14) and under the sentence of death (Rom. 6:23), but subject to redemption by the purchase price of the Redeemer. This redemption is described in three Greek words1) agorazo Meaning to purchase out of the market place (1 Cor. 6:20; 7:23; Rev. 5:9)

(2) exagorazo Meaning to buy out of the market and remove from further sale (Gal. 3:13; 4:5)

(3) lutroo Meaning to loose and set free (Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:18); with its noun form lutrosis (Heb. 9:12); and its intensive form, apolutrosis which is commonly used to indicate complete release of a slave (Rom. 3:23; 8:23; 1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:7,14; 4:30; Col. 1:14; Heb. 9:15; 11:35)Scripture clearly describes the believer’s redemption through faith in Christ as having been (1) purchased by the blood of Christ out of the slave market of sin, (2) never to return and (3) completely set free. Just as Jesus said: “So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed” (Jn. 8:36). And Paul proclaimed to the church in Galatia where some desired to be enslaved under the principle of law: “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1).

Contrary to your assertion, one can see above that redemption is clearly explained in Scripture. What was taught by the Apostles on redemption, orally, was subsequently preserved for us in Holy Writ. There’s no difference between what was orally taught and what was preserved in writing. It’s farcical indeed to think they’d be different.

All men are redeemed, yet not all are saved.

All men are not redeemed. It’s true that Christ accomplished the work of redemption on the cross for all men, and that He stated concerning that work: “It is finished.” But one does not enter it, nor is His finished work of redemption appropriated to anyone, until they BELIEVE in Him. At the time of personal belief in Christ His work of redemption is Divinely applied to the believer in full (agorazo, exagorazo, lutroo). Redemption is part of Divine salvation through faith in Christ alone. The saved are completely redeemed and the redeemed are completely saved. It’s impossible for the redeemed not to be saved or vice versa. The redeemed and the saved are one and the same people.

The redeemed and unsaved have not done their part." —John Martignoni

JM grossly errs by teaching universal redemption (which is different from “unlimited redemption”) and salvation by works. Both are contrary to Scripture.

Salvation: Those who do their part in imitating Christ’s life (those who abide in Christ) are saved. Those who do not do their part are not saved.

Translated: Salvation by works.Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

We remain in the state of grace by obeying God’s commandments and thereby loving God and neighbor which I have documented by Scripture in previous posts.

Confirming your “gospel” of salvation by law keeping.

If we sin deliberately after we are saved, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer saves us. (Hebrews 10:26-39)

Confirming your rendering of the cross to be insignificant.

Since you claim to believe and understand Scripture, then why do you not obey 2 Thessalonians 2:15? “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”

Paul is saying they’re the same, not different. Whether by word of mouth or by letter the traditions (teachings) remain the same. We’re handed down to us in the twenty-first century, through the theopneustos (God-breathed) Scriptures, the same gospel and the same Apostolic teachings that were orally presented to the churches of the first century. It’s the way God has preserved His Word on earth since Moses.

We are justified by our works as proof of our faith.

You err.Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,What’s credited as righteousness, SHW? His works? His “proof” of faith by a lifetime demonstration of works? His godliness? No, No, No. What does God say in His preserved, written Word? “…his FAITH is credited as righteousness.” You operate under the false assumption that God is finite and cannot recognize faith and therefore one must provide Him proof throughout his life before He can finally justify him. You err both in your “gospel” of salvation by works and your concept of God. The latter is the cause of the former.

SHW, your “guardian angel” isn’t doing well for you. Are you allowed to trade him in for another?

 

[SHW]

Contrary to your assertion, one can see above that redemption is clearly explained in Scripture. What was taught by the Apostles on redemption, orally, was subsequently preserved for us in Holy Writ. There’s no difference between what was orally taught and what was preserved in writing. It’s farcical indeed to think they’d be different.All men are not redeemed. It’s true that Christ accomplished the work of redemption on the cross for all men, and that He stated concerning that work: “It is finished.” But one does not enter it, nor is His finished work of redemption appropriated to anyone, until they BELIEVE in Him. At the time of personal belief in Christ His work of redemption is Divinely applied to the believer in full (agorazo, exagorazo, lutroo). Redemption is part of Divine salvation through faith in Christ alone. The saved are completely redeemed and the redeemed are completely saved. It’s impossible for the redeemed not to be saved or vice versa. The redeemed and the saved are one and the same people.JM grossly errs by teaching universal redemption (which is different from “unlimited redemption”) and salvation by works. Both are contrary to Scripture.Translated: Salvation by works.

I disagree. Your “interpretation” of Scripture is what is in error. Nowhere in Scripture does it state that “everything” was written down in “holy writ.” It actually states the contrary. Please show me Scripture which supports your claim. (3 John 1:13-14, John 21:25, 1 Timothy 3:14-15, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2)

Before Jesus appeared on earth to redeem us, persons who died and were approved as righteous, (Acts 10:34-36) did not believe in Jesus since they did not know who He was, yet they were waiting in Abraham’s bosom for the gates of heaven to be opened so that they could enter eternal life. They did not have to “believe” in Him first in order to be counted as righteous.

Hebrews 9:15 “And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”

It looks to me that Jesus died for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant also. It does not say that people had to believe in Him in order for this to happen and indeed it did not. He did this as a free gift of grace. Also, notice that those persons who are called “receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.” It is not a slam-dunk deal. What is this promise?

1 John 2:24-26 “Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.”

Do not be deceived. If you do not remain in Christ (abide in Him until death by obeying His commandments and producing good fruits) then you do not actually receive the “end of our hope” which is eternal life.

It is the Holy Spirit abiding within us at our deaths, Who is the guarantee of eternal life for us. If we have defiled our temples with sin, then He no longer abides in us and our Guarantee is no longer living in us and we will not inherit eternal life. The Holy Spirit abiding in us at our deaths is our only guarantee of eternal life. (2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

Hebrews 3:6 “but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.”

We have conditional salvation until death. I know you don’t wish to believe this, but Scripture is true and cannot be ignored in order to suit your own private interpretation of a couple of other verses which “seem” to say otherwise.

Hebrews 6:10-12 “For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”

What does God say in His preserved, written Word? “…his FAITH is credited as righteousness.” You operate under the false assumption that God is finite and cannot recognize faith and therefore one must provide Him proof throughout his life before He can finally justify him. You err both in your “gospel” of salvation by works and your concept of God. The latter is the cause of the former.

Your definition of a saving “faith” is not the same as mine. Faith is active participation (abiding/remaining in Christ) until death. What matters is “faith working through love.” (Galatians 5:6) It is not merely claiming that you accept Jesus as your Savior. Works matter. We are not saved by faith alone.

James 2:21-24 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Is your Bible missing this book?

SHW, your “guardian angel” isn’t doing well for you. Are you allowed to trade him in for another?

Any “real” (not imagined) shortcoming is of myself only. Please do not insult my guardian angel. It is despicable behavior.

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

And Paul proclaimed to the church in Galatia where some desired to be enslaved under the principle of law: “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 5:1).

You operate under the false assumption that God is finite and cannot recognize faith and therefore one must provide Him proof throughout his life before He can finally justify him. You err both in your “gospel” of salvation by works and your concept of God. The latter is the cause of the former.

?

According to St.Paul one needs to “stand firm” in order not to become enslaved AGAIN…so is one still saved if they become enslaved again?St.Paul is clearly telling us here that one can become enslaved to sin after being “saved”…

What are you saying here?That the one who GIVES US THE GIFT OF FAITH does not recognize that faith which he gave?
Romans 5:9 "Much more now that we are JUSTIFIED by His blood shall we be saved through Him from the wrath’’…There we have justification is seperate from salvation.

 

[moondweller]

ryanoneil:

This next verse describes what happend right after Jesus’ ascension. He came to heaven on the clouds and recieved kingship (where He sits on the throne of David).

As the visions during the night continued, I saw One like a son of man coming, on the clouds of heaven; When he reached the Ancient One and was presented before him, He received dominion, glory, and kingship; nations and peoples of every language serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not be taken away, his kingship shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13-14)

Nowhere in Scripture is David’s throne ever described as a heavenly one. Nowhere in Scripture is the Father’s throne ever called the throne of David. As I pointed out previously, Jesus, presently sharing His Father’s throne in heaven still anticipates the day when He will sit on His throne (Rev. 3:21). Daniel’s vision was prophetic. Christ was born King (Matt. 2:2) but He is yet to receive His kingdom. David prefigured Christ in that he (David) was anointed king by Samuel but he did not ascend the throne immediately.

That is incorrect. A priest after the order of Melchizedek posses ruling authority as a king as well as religious authority as a priest.

Melchizedek, king of Salem, brought out bread and wine, and being a priest of God Most High, he blessed Abram with these words: (Gen 14:18)

Luke says nothing about returning to this earth.

A psalm of David. The LORD says to you, my lord: “Take your throne at my righthand, while I make your enemies your footstool.” The scepter of your sovereign might the LORD will extend from Zion. The LORD says: “Rule over your enemies! Yours is princely power from the day of your birth. In holy splendor before the daystar, like the dew I begot you.” The LORD has sworn and will not waver: “Like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.” (Ps 110:1-4)

Yes, Melchizdek was a type of Christ who is both King and High Priest. As a priest Jesus offered Himself as the final sacrifice for all sins.Heb 7:26-27 "For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the {sins} of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.As High Priest He now sits at the right hand of the Father functioning there as the believer’s Intercessor and Advocate. But at the end of this age He will return as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:11-16; cf. Is. 63:1-6). And Christ as both Priest and King will set up His Millennial and rule over this earth with peace and righteousness. Thus Zechariah’s prophecy will be fulfilled:Zech 6:12-13 "Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. (Rom 8:34)

Don’t you think it is Interesting how the high priest king is sitting on his throne at the right hand of God (ruling and interceding)?

Don’t you find it interesting that Jesus, as King, still anticipates the time when He will sit on HIS throne (Rev. 3:31)? Show me in the Epistles where Jesus is ever referred to as “King of the church?”

The church is not the fullness of the Kingdom but it is part of it.

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body. (1 Cor 6:19-20)

Our body is “a” temple of the Holy Spirit, not “the” Temple. Did you notice in Zechariah’s prophecy, quoted above, that when Jesus returns He’ll build the temple of the Lord? There will be a temple in His earthly kingdom, and He’ll build it. It’s graphically described in Ezekiel chapters 40-44. It’s the Millennial Temple.

Jesus himself is the Kingdom.

This is a silly statement. A king rules over a kingdom.

Romans 5:9 "Much more now that we are JUSTIFIED by His blood shall we be saved through Him from the wrath’’…There we have justification is seperate from salvation.

It’s merely stating that the justified will be saved (delivered) from His wrath that is to come. The true church of Christ is not destined for wrath 1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Before Jesus appeared on earth to redeem us, persons who died and were approved as righteous, (Acts 10:34-36) did not believe in Jesus since they did not know who He was, yet they were waiting in Abraham’s bosom for the gates of heaven to be opened so that they could enter eternal life. They did not have to “believe” in Him first in order to be counted as righteous.

Jesus accomplished (finished) the work of redemption on the cross, and His work of redemption is applied in full at the time of belief in Him. The content of salvation faith, this side of the cross, is the gospel message concerning the Person and (finished) redemptive work Christ accomplished once for all.

Do you know why those O.T. saints were said to be in Abraham’s bosom? Because they were of the FAITH of Abraham. They too, like Abraham, believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (their faith) to them as righteousness" (justification, Gen. 15:6). ALL believers (both Old and New Testament) are said to be spiritual “sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7), because they’re of the same faith as Abraham. Those O.T. saints, like Abraham, were justified by God through their faith in Him, and the blood Christ shed on the cross redeemed them. Just as it does those who, this side of the cross, turn from their unbelief to belief in the Person and work of His Son on the cross.

We have conditional salvation until death. I know you don’t wish to believe this, but Scripture is true and cannot be ignored in order to suit your own private interpretation of a couple of other verses which “seem” to say otherwise.

You believe in a conditional salvation because in unbelief you’re still trying to work for your salvation. You reject Divine grace.

Your definition of a saving “faith” is not the same as mine. Faith is active participation (abiding/remaining in Christ) until death.

You confound faith and works, grace and law.

Any “real” (not imagined) shortcoming is of myself only. Please do not insult my guardian angel. It is despicable behavior.

What’s his name? And where in Scripture is anyone ever told to invoke angels? Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit as the believer’s guide, not angels. We’re told in the Book of Hebrews that angels are ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit eternal salvation (Heb. 1:14), but nowhere, that I know of, is it said that men are to invoke them. According to the Scriptures all prayer should be addressed to the Father in the name of the Son.

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

According to St.Paul one needs to “stand firm” in order not to become enslaved AGAIN…so is one still saved if they become enslaved again?

It’s revealed that the true believer has been co-crucified with Christ, co-buried, and co-resurrected with Him. It’s his new position and identity before God (Rom. 6;6,7: Col. 3:1-4; Gal. 2:20). Spiritually, the true believer’s relationship to sin is the same as the risen Christ’s: dead to it.

St.Paul is clearly telling us here that one can become enslaved to sin after being “saved”…

Yes, if the believer walks in the flesh and not in the Spirit. But the redeemed are exhorted to walk by the Spirit and he/she will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16). But we’re not talking salvation here, but experiential sanctification. You’re confounding the two.

What are you saying here?That the one who GIVES US THE GIFT OF FAITH does not recognize that faith which he gave?

That’s SHW’s argument. You need to address this question to him.

 

[SHW]

Jesus accomplished (finished) the work of redemption on the cross, and His work of redemption is applied in full at the time of belief in Him. The content of salvation faith, this side of the cross, is the gospel message concerning the Person and (finished) redemptive work Christ accomplished once for all.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Your belief is contrary to Scripture. You misinterpret Scripture to fit your own individual interpretation. You were not “taught” by Peter’s and the other Apostles’ successors as you should have been. You change His gospel and Paul warns against this. (Galatians 1:9) Jesus entrusted the Scriptures and their interpretations to the Catholic Church, not to individuals. Scripture when properly interpreted, backs up Catholic teaching. It is our book. (2 Timothy 2:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 11:2, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2:1)

Do you know why those O.T. saints were said to be in Abraham’s bosom? Because they were of the FAITH of Abraham. They too, like Abraham, believed in the Lord; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (their faith) to them as righteousness" (justification, Gen. 15:6). ALL believers (both Old and New Testament) are said to be spiritual “sons of Abraham” (Gal. 3:7), because they’re of the same faith as Abraham. Those O.T. saints, like Abraham, were justified by God through their faith in Him, and the blood Christ shed on the cross redeemed them. Just as it does those who, this side of the cross, turn from their unbelief to belief in the Person and work of His Son on the cross.You believe in a conditional salvation because in unbelief you’re still trying to work for your salvation.

Let me refresh your memory:

by Moondweller: “But one does not enter it, nor is His finished work of redemption appropriated to anyone, until they BELIEVE in Him.” (emphasis mine, not Moondweller’s)

Of course, I knew that they were of the faith of Abraham and that the New Covenant did not apply to them. You stated that for anyone to have redemption appropriated to him/her that he/she had to believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

We cannot be saved without God’s grace, but we are not saved by faith alone.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

You reject Divine grace.You confound faith and works, grace and law.

I do no such thing. You confuse Divine law which never changes, with “works of the law” of Moses and lump them all together in order to “do away” with them both!

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Is this Scripture missing from your Bible? You apparently do not know what it means.

Matthew 7:20-23 “Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’”

How about this one? Is it missing from your Bible, too?

What’s his name? And where in Scripture is anyone ever told to invoke angels? Jesus said He was sending the Holy Spirit as the believer’s guide, not angels. We’re told in the Book of Hebrews that angels are ministering spirits sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit eternal salvation (Heb. 1:14), but nowhere, that I know of, is it said that men are to invoke them. According to the Scriptures all prayer should be addressed to the Father in the name of the Son.

Ah, but if you knew and believed the oral teaching of Jesus’ Church, which by the way, we are required to do; then you would know that this is a perfectly reasonable thing for me to do.

But, since you pick and choose the Bible verses that you wish to believe and then ignore the rest, you will continue to have this problem of not understanding the the full gospel of Jesus. Your understanding of Jesus’ gospel is really only a “partial” and somewhat “incorrect” gospel of Jesus.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.” Not everything was written down. What words were spoken when bishops, elders/priests, and deacons were consecrated by the laying on of hands? It is not in the Bible because it was not necessary for lay persons to know. (1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6)

I talk to my guardian angel who “knows” my needs and intercedes for me. My guardian angel helps me daily. Too bad that you are missing out. (Matthew 18:10, Hosea 4:6)

Where in Scripture does it state that “all” prayer should be addressed to the Father in the name of the Son? (Philippians 4:6, 1 Timothy 2:1-3)

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

It’s revealed that the true believer has been co-crucified with Christ, co-buried, and co-resurrected with Him. It’s his new position and identity before God (Rom. 6;6,7: Col. 3:1-4; Gal. 2:20). Spiritually, the true believer’s relationship to sin is the same as the risen Christ’s: dead to it.Yes, if the believer walks in the flesh and not in the Spirit. But the redeemed are exhorted to walk by the Spirit and he/she will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Gal. 5:16). But we’re not talking salvation here, but experiential sanctification. You’re confounding the two.That’s SHW’s argument. You need to address this question to him.

Just when is the beleiver “co-crucified”,etc…?When they are BAPTISED…read what is written and you will see…

What then are we to say that one can be saved yet not sanctified?Are we to say also that one can be saved yet still walk in the ways of the flesh? It sure seems this way in your reply.

 

[moondweller]

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Your belief is contrary to Scripture.

Then so is yours:

"There is no God" (Ps. 10:4; 14:1).

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

I talk to my guardian angel who “knows” my needs and intercedes for me. My guardian angel helps me daily. Too bad that you are missing out. (Matthew 18:10, Hosea 4:6)

Ah, but if you knew and believed the oral teaching of Jesus’ Church, which by the way, we are required to do; then you would know that this is a perfectly reasonable thing for me to do.

But, since you pick and choose the Bible verses that you wish to believe and then ignore the rest, you will continue to have this problem of not understanding the the full gospel of Jesus. Your understanding of Jesus’ gospel is really only a “partial” and somewhat “incorrect” gospel of Jesus.

Since when does the gospel of Jesus include invoking angels? Can you show me where any of the Apostles taught this as part and parcel of the gospel message of salvation they proclaimed? By example, which of the Apostles invoked angels? Which of them claimed to have a private, personal angelic tutor? What does Matt. 18:10 have to do with invoking angels? Scripture states that the risen Christ is the believer’s Intercessor before the Father. How is it you’ve replaced Christ with a finite angel? You say an angel guides you yet Christ said that the Holy Spirit is sent to guide believers and it’s in Him that the believer is to walk. How is it you’ve replaced the Holy Spirit with a finite angel?

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

Just when is the beleiver “co-crucified”,etc…? When they are BAPTISED…read what is written and you will see…

You’re digressing from the original point. You asked in respect to sin and salvation: “…so is one still saved if they become enslaved again?”

The point I made is that it’s Divinely revealed that the believer’s relationship “to sin” is that of Christ’s: dead to it, once for all, - and “the life that He lives” (resurrected and glorified), He lives to God (Rom 6:10).

It’s Divinely revealed that every true believer’s “old self” (all who he was in Adam) was crucified with Christ (Rom. 6:6) and that having died with Christ he is “freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7). In his relationship to sin he is acquitted. His sinful history in Adam ended at the cross, once for all, with Christ and, positionally, he is now seen by God united (baptized) in the risen Christ (Eph. 1:3; 2:5; Col. 2:12; 3:1-4).

You see, fb19, the wages of sin is (the penalty of) death. And death belongs even to the believer, because ALL sinned. But by Christ’s entering into it (death) for us, death (and judgment too) has become the true believer’s salvation. The sin, of which death was the wages, has been put away by death itself (Christ’s). And the judgment was been borne for every believer, there on the cross, by his Savior’s death.

You fail to understand that true Christianity is not about sin (God dealt with the world’s sin “once for all” through the cross of Christ), but about FAITH in the Word of God. It’s “by grace through faith” that one is saved, and it’s by/through faith that God “justifies the ungodly.” And it’s by faith that the believer is to now reckon himself to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:11). Paul doesn’t say to reckon sin dead, but to reckon oneself dead to sin based on the Divinely revealed FACT that the true believer has died with Christ (all who he was in Adam) and God has raised him to new life in Him, the “second Man,” the “Last Adam,” the RISEN Christ. The believer is to live now AFTER the cross, and in full right and power of all that Christ accomplished there.

IOW, in true Christianity not behaving, but believing, is God’s way: Behaving follows believing. Men are not to behave in order to be saved, but it’s the saved that are to behave in such a way that glorifies the God who saved them.

What then are we to say that one can be saved yet not sanctified? Are we to say also that one can be saved yet still walk in the ways of the flesh? It sure seems this way in your reply.

Rom 6:20-23 "For when you were slaves of sin (enslavement to sin is a condition of unbelief), you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God (freed from sin and enslaved to God is a condition of belief), you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome (which is immediate, not future), eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."All who are saved are scarified (set apart) in the risen Christ (Acts 20:32; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 2:11; Heb. 10:10, 14).

 

[fbl9]

You’re digressing from the original point. You asked in respect to sin and salvation: “…so is one still saved if they become enslaved again?”

The point I made is that it’s Divinely revealed that the believer’s relationship “to sin” is that of Christ’s: dead to it, once for all, - and “the life that He lives” (resurrected and glorified), He lives to God (Rom 6:10).

It’s Divinely revealed that every true believer’s “old self” (all who he was in Adam) was crucified with Christ (Rom. 6:6) and that having died with Christ he is “freed from sin” (Rom. 6:7). In his relationship to sin he is acquitted. His sinful history in Adam ended at the cross, once for all, with Christ and, positionally, he is now seen by God united (baptized) in the risen Christ (Eph. 1:3; 2:5; Col. 2:12; 3:1-4).

You see, fb19, the wages of sin is (the penalty of) death. And death belongs even to the believer, because ALL sinned. But by Christ’s entering into it (death) for us, death (and judgment too) has become the true believer’s salvation. The sin, of which death was the wages, has been put away by death itself (Christ’s). And the judgment was been borne for every believer, there on the cross, by his Savior’s death.

You fail to understand that true Christianity is not about sin (God dealt with the world’s sin “once for all” through the cross of Christ), but about FAITH in the Word of God. It’s “by grace through faith” that one is saved, and it’s by/through faith that God “justifies the ungodly.” And it’s by faith that the believer is to now reckon himself to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:11). Paul doesn’t say to reckon sin dead, but to reckon oneself dead to sin based on the Divinely revealed FACT that the true believer has died with Christ (all who he was in Adam) and God has raised him to new life in Him, the “second Man,” the “Last Adam,” the RISEN Christ. The believer is to live now AFTER the cross, and in full right and power of all that Christ accomplished there.

IOW, in true Christianity not behaving, but believing, is God’s way: Behaving follows believing. Men are not to behave in order to be saved, but it’s the saved that are to behave in such a way that glorifies the God who saved them.Rom 6:20-23 "For when you were slaves of sin (enslavement to sin is a condition of unbelief), you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God (freed from sin and enslaved to God is a condition of belief), you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome (which is immediate, not future), eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."All who are saved are scarified (set apart) in the risen Christ (Acts 20:32; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 2:11; Heb. 10:10, 14).

To me this sounds as if it were as free license to sin,but we BOTH agree that it isn’t…

Say there is one who is weak in the face of temptation,yet calls himself a beleiver,is this person…?
not truly a beleiver or never was
saved
condemened,
cut offf from the grace of God
never to be saved, not predestined to be saved
does not need to repent but should try to amend thier wayward ways.
none of the above explain

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

IOW, in true Christianity not behaving, but believing, is God’s way: Behaving follows believing. Men are not to behave in order to be saved, but it’s the saved that are to behave in such a way that glorifies the God who saved them.

BUT! If behaving FOLLOWS believing, then behaving (works) are proof of Faith, which is what SHW has been saying all along.

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

To me this sounds as if it were as free license to sin,but we BOTH agree that it isn’t…

Say there is one who is weak in the face of temptation,yet calls himself a beleiver,is this person…?
not truly a beleiver or never was
saved
condemened,
cut offf from the grace of God
never to be saved, not predestined to be saved
does not need to repent but should try to amend thier wayward ways.
none of the above explain

You continue to not believe the Word of God. According to Divine revelation salvation is not based on one’s strength “in the face of temptation;” nor do the saved suffer loss of salvation based on their weakness “in the face of temptation.” But instead it’s revealed: Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

 

[moondweller]

AmbroseSJ:

BUT! If behaving FOLLOWS believing, then behaving (works) are proof of Faith, which is what SHW has been saying all along.

Not quite. SHW argues the Catholic position that God “will save” (future tense) based not on faith itself but the proof of it. Translated: Salvation by works.

 

[ryanoneil]

Nowhere in Scripture is David’s throne ever described as a heavenly one. Nowhere in Scripture is the Father’s throne ever called the throne of David. As I pointed out previously, Jesus, presently sharing His Father’s throne in heaven still anticipates the day when He will sit on His throne (Rev. 3:21). Daniel’s vision was prophetic. Christ was born King (Matt. 2:2) but He is yet to receive His kingdom. David prefigured Christ in that he (David) was anointed king by Samuel but he did not ascend the throne immediately.

He has recieved His kingdom. This is present, not future, tense. It is refering to the heavenly city of David, "the new Jerusalem.

"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this: (Rev 3:7)

And it’s reference is talking about active authority.

I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. (Isa 22:22)

Yes, Melchizdek was a type of Christ who is both King and High Priest. As a priest Jesus offered Himself as the final sacrifice for all sins.Heb 7:26-27 "For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the {sins} of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.As High Priest He now sits at the right hand of the Father functioning there as the believer’s Intercessor and Advocate. But at the end of this age He will return as “King of kings and Lord of lords” (Rev. 19:11-16; cf. Is. 63:1-6). And Christ as both Priest and King will set up His Millennial and rule over this earth with peace and righteousness.

I doesn’t say He “will be” a priest “in the future” according to the order of Melchizedek. He “is” a high priest “forever”, which means He is King now.

Thus Zechariah’s prophecy will be fulfilled:Zech 6:12-13 "Then say to him, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices.”’

Isn’t the Temple built before Christ returns in your senario?

How can the desolation of Daniel preceed Christ’s coming if the Temple isn’t built?

Don’t you find it interesting that Jesus, as King, still anticipates the time when He will sit on HIS throne (Rev. 3:31)?

Jesus doesn’t say anything about earth. The victors and their rewards are in heaven. (Rev 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7) So is the temple and holy city and it will come down out of heaven from God.

Show me in the Epistles where Jesus is ever referred to as “King of the church?”

Full dominion over all creation includes being King.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. (Mt 28:18)

The rising of Jesus fulfills God’s oath to give one of David’s descendants everlating dominion over Israel and the world.

We ourselves are proclaiming this good news to you that what God promised our ancestors he has brought to fulfillment for us, (their) children, by raising up Jesus, as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son; this day I have begotten you.’ And that he raised him from the dead never to return to corruption he declared in this way, ‘I shall give you the benefits assured to David.’ (Acts 13:32-34)

Psalm 2 is an enthronement psalm.

"I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain." I will proclaim the decree of the LORD, who said to me, "You are my son; today I am your father. Only ask it of me, and I will make your inheritance the nations, your possession the ends of the earth. (Ps 2:6-8)

Isaiah gave hope to Isarael that God would restore the kingdom and blessings of David.

Come to me heedfully, listen, that you may have life. I will renew with you the everlasting covenant, the benefits assured to David. (Isa 55:3)

It can’t get any more obvious. Paul clearly says God brought it to fulfillment.

Our body is “a” temple of the Holy Spirit, not “the” Temple. Did you notice in Zechariah’s prophecy, quoted above, that when Jesus returns He’ll build the temple of the Lord? There will be a temple in His earthly kingdom, and He’ll build it. It’s graphically described in Ezekiel chapters 40-44. It’s the Millennial Temple.

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone. Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord; in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:19-22)

Come to him, a living stone, rejected by human beings but chosen and precious in the sight of God, and, like living stones, let yourselves be built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it says in scripture: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion, a cornerstone, chosen and precious, and whoever believes in it shall not be put to shame.” (1 Pet 2:4-6)

 

[SHW]

Then so is yours:

"There is no God" (Ps. 10:4; 14:1).

Are you trying to be funny? Your isolated verse cannot stand alone and portray the intended meaning, but mine can. Only a fool says there is no God. They even have their own day set aside for them. It is called April Fools’ Day.

Psalm 53:1 “The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity;
There is none who does good.”

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”

Please tell me why this Scripture is so hard for you to understand? Salvation by Faith Alone is disproved by Scripture.

James 2:21-24 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Like I’ve said before, you do not understand redemption and salvation. Jesus redeemed us on the cross, and through baptism, we receive the benefits of His redemption. This redemption justifies us (makes us friends of God) and then we are required to abide (remain) in this relationship with Him until death if we desire to inherit eternal life. It is not a “one-time” deal and then we are “saved forever”. This is contrary to Scripture.

The Apostles spent most of their time exhorting persons to remain in this saving relationship with God. They warned many times, that if the brethren committed sin after their justification, then they would no longer inherit eternal life.

What are we judged on, on Judgment Day? We are not judged on our faith alone. We are judged on our works as proof of our faith. Faith is not even mentioned on Judgment Day according to the Scriptures.

“Belief” cannot be separated from “obedience” when it concerns faith. There cannot be one without the other.

Hebrews 3:12-19 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:
“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Here, the brethren are warned. If they return to sin, then they depart from God. Plain to see. They were already saved through baptism, but they are warned that they will lose their salvation (they will not enter His eternal rest) if they rebel against God and sin against Him again. Disobedience is equated with unbelief in this Scripture passage.

**Disobedience is unbelief. Belief is obedience. **We must obey God’s commandments in order to inherit eternal life. We must bear good fruits in order to enter eternal life. We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works.

God is not going to change His mind on any of this in order to accommodate your own private individual interpretation of His Word. He does not change, and unless we remain in His grace by obedience to His gospel and unless we produce good fruit, we will not inherit eternal life.

Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears (obeys) Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Not quite. SHW argues the Catholic position that God “will save” (future tense) based not on faith itself but the proof of it. Translated: Salvation by works.

Salvation is a process, not a one-time event. I was saved through baptism. I am being saved right now because I am proving my love for God by obeying His commandments and doing good works (faith working through love Galatians 5:6) and if I continue to do this until death, then God will approve of me for inheriting eternal life, and so then I will be saved for eternity.

James 1:12 “Blessed is the man who endures temptation (trials); for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Since when does the gospel of Jesus include invoking angels? Can you show me where any of the Apostles taught this as part and parcel of the gospel message of salvation they proclaimed? By example, which of the Apostles invoked angels? Which of them claimed to have a private, personal angelic tutor? What does Matt. 18:10 have to do with invoking angels? Scripture states that the risen Christ is the believer’s Intercessor before the Father. How is it you’ve replaced Christ with a finite angel? You say an angel guides you yet Christ said that the Holy Spirit is sent to guide believers and it’s in Him that the believer is to walk. How is it you’ve replaced the Holy Spirit with a finite angel?

You misunderstand. I am not replacing the Holy Spirit. I am not replacing Jesus. I have a guardian angel’s guidance and protection given to me by God Himself in addition to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. My guardian angel does not usurp God’s will. That is an impossibility. I more fully do God’s will for my life by listening to my guardian angel’s promptings in addition to the Holy Spirit’s. We all have “guardian” angels, what do you think they are “doing?” (Matthew 18:10)

Scripture does not state that Jesus is the “only” intercessor. Scripture states that Jesus is the only “Mediator” between God and Man. We should all be “intercessors” according to Scripture.

Scripture states that Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man. This is in reference to atonement for Adam’s sin. Adam’s sin made us enemies of God. Jesus could repair that relationship between God and Man only because Jesus is both God and Man. Man could never do it by himself. This is why Jesus needed to die on the cross; to redeem mankind from Adam’s sin. This is what Ephesians 2:8 is referring to: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” No works of man could ever redeem us from Adam’s sin. But this does not mean that we cannot lose our salvation. We can and do lose our salvation if we do not obey God’s commandments. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Matthew 13:40-42, 1 John 3:4)

No works of man, neither works of the law nor righteous works, could ever atone for Adam’s sin which alienated us from God and made us enemies in the spiritual sense. We could no longer inherit eternal life because of Adam’s sin. Only a Mediator who is both God and Man could redeem us from the consequences of Adam’s sin. This is why Jesus is our Mediator. He redeemed us from Adam’s sin and opened the gates of heaven so that we may inherit eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:1-7 “Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.”

Do you see that Paul is exhorting the brethren to intercede for all men? Intercessions of mankind go through Jesus before they ultimately reach His Father, but we also must make intercessions for each other to Jesus according to Scripture. Catholics also believe that since the prayers of a righteous man avails much (1 Peter 3:12), then the angels and saints in heaven are also interceding for their brethren on earth and that we can ask them to pray for us. There are none more righteous than those who are already in heaven seeing God face to face.

Those persons who say that the saints in heaven and our guardian angels cannot help us on earth are trying to limit God’s power and His graces. (Genesis 28:12, Revelation 8:2-4)

Pax,
SHW