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AmbroseSJ
Guest
You mean you have nothing to say.You said nothing.
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SHW
Guest
No, you are mistaken. Salvation is conditional upon our own free will choices after Jesus first justifies us. He gives us a clean slate but we have to keep it clean in order to inherit eternal life. (1 Timothy 4:16, Colossians 1:22-23, Romans 11:21-23, 1 John 5:13, Ephesians 5:5-7, Revelation 21:8)
Here is my question for you: Why are you here on a Catholic forum? You do not grasp the true intended meaning of the Scriptures but instead you twist them to supposedly support your own private interpretations.
“Trinity” is not a Biblical term either, yet it is believed as dogma by most major denominations. Since Scripture shows that a person can indeed lose his salvation, then a person is not guaranteed final salvation just because he calls upon the name of the Lord in order to become saved in the first place.
It is the Holy Spirit abiding in us Who is the guarantee of our salvation. As long as He is abiding in us, we are saved. But if we sin deliberately after Jesus saves us, then we have defiled our temples and the Holy Spirit leaves our souls and if we die in this state, then we are destroyed.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 “Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.”
2 Corinthians 5:5 “Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.”
Ephesians 1:13-15 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”
How do we lose our Guarantee (the Holy Spirit) for eternal life?
1 Corinthians 3:16-18 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.”
We lose our guarantee for eternal life when we defile our temples with sin.
Here is another passage which tells us the same thing but in a different way:
Hebrews 10:26-30 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
I do not desire to hurt your feelings but you look rather foolish when you keep trying to assert a belief in the false dogma of Eternal Security on a Catholic forum.
Pax,
SHW
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SHW
Guest
As you know from reading this thread, not “everyone” here appreciates the fact that angels help the body of Christ. 
For those of you who are interested in learning more about angels, check out this webpage:
onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=516860
Pax,
SHW
For those of you who are interested in learning more about angels, check out this webpage:
onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=516860
Pax,
SHW
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moondweller
Guest
No, I meant you said nothing. You merely cut and pasted the text but you didn’t explain what you thought was the context. The truth is, in context James is not presenting a doctrinal statement on justification but a practical one. If you want pure doctrinal statements on justification you’ll have to go to Paul’s Epistles. Got it?You mean you have nothing to say.
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moondweller
Guest
(1) Jesus doesn’t justify us, God Himself does, “as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24).
(2) Justification is not Jesus giving us a clean slate. Justification is giving the believer a right standing before God. It’s putting to his (the believer’s) account the righteousness of Christ Himself. Through the substitutionary, blood sacrifice of Christ the believer’s sins are forever forgiven. That’s ALL his sins, Why? Because ALL his sins were imputed to Christ while on the cross - not just Adam’s (“original sin”). In the following verses notice the plurality of sins: 1 Pet. 2:24; 3:18; Gal. 1:4; Heb. 1:3; 1 Cor. 15:3; 1 Jn. 3:5; Col. 2:13-14. But justification is imputing to the forgiven believer the righteousness of Christ Himself.
(1)You invited me to this one, remember? Are you like a host who attacks his guests? (2) I enjoy discussing the Christian faith with all who call themselves “Christian.”
You’re entitled to your opinion.
The term is supported by Scripture. The term “Trinity” simply codifies what the Scriptures reveal: one God in three Persons. That is not the case, however, with your term “initial” justification. Scripture uses language like:“being justified” (Rom. 3:24; Titus 3:7), meaning a state of being, not a process.
"will/would justify (Rom. 3:30; Gal. 3:8), with faith in Christ being the condition to be met.
“were justified” (1 Cor. 6:11; Rom. 8:30), a past, completed act of God.
“having been justified” (Rom. 5:1,9), describing the present and eternal condition of the believer before God.But there is no concept of an “initial” justification in the Bible suggesting a future completion, or the idea of multiple justifications pending conditions yet to be met by the individual. Such a concept cannot exist in the Scriptures because it’s God Himself who justifies the believer and that “as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24).
True believers are all called spiritual “sons of Abraham” because they too have been justified by God in the same manner as their father was centuries ago:Gen 15:6 “Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (the Lord) reckoned it (his believing) to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:3-5 “For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (his act of believing) was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly (God does not justify those who try to prove themselves godly), his faith is credited (to him) as righteousness,”
But Scripture nowhere shows that God un-saves anyone He saves, nor un-justifies anyone He justifies; since Scripture shows both salvation and justification are gifted by God to the believer at the time of faith based on the, once for all, redemptive work of Jesus Christ alone (Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8-9).
Still building on that same theme of Abraham being credited righteousness by God based on his faith alone , Paul writes to the church at Rome:Rom 4:23 - 5:2 "Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God."So you see, SHW, I don’t at all twist the Scriptures, but instead I allow them to say what they say. But the truths found in the Scriptures concerning divine grace, salvation and justification are addressed only to those who have believed the Word of God, not to those who refuse to believe God’s testimony concerning His Son (1 Jn. 5:9-13).
I agree, and it’s revealed that the true believer is sealed in the risen Christ with the Holy Spirit:Eph 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"And that sealing is “for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30; i.e., of our bodies, Rom. 8:23; cf. Phil. 3:20-21).
No feelings hurt, SHW. Ever since Pentecost to many the word of the cross has been foolishness.
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SHW
Guest
Jesus is God. (John 1:1) 1 Corinthians 6:11 “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
Romans 5:1 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Like I said, a clean slate.
Faith alone does not save. Faith and works save.
James 2:18-26 “But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
Faith without works is useless and it will not save.
Galatians 5:6 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”
Acts 10:34-35 “Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.”
Jesus redeemed us and we are justified through Baptism and then we must continue to remain in Christ (abide in Him) until death. Baptism makes us sons of God.
Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
If we sin after we become sons of God through Baptism, then we become sons of disobedience and we lose our inheritance of eternal life.
Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”
Colossians 3:5-7 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”
If we do these things, then we become sons of disobedience and we receive the wrath of God instead of eternal life. If we “walk in these things” again after our justification, then we also receive the just punishment for them. We lose our status as sons of God when we sin deliberately after we are justified. (Hebrews 10:26-30, 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)
Eternal Security doctrine is a false doctrine. Scripture shows this over and over and anyone who teaches otherwise is teaching a gospel other than that of Jesus and His Apostles and Disciples. As it states in 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, you deceive yourself when you believe that you can defile your soul/temple with sin and still inherit eternal life without repenting before death.
1 Timothy 5:8 “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
Titus 1:16 “They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.”
Revelation 2:23 “I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that** I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works**.”
Galatians 6:7 "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
Pax,
SHW
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BRB1
Guest
MD …
Judas believed in Jesus … at an earlier point in his apostolic life. Yet, Christ said of his final outcome ‘it would have better if he had not been born’.
Surely you recognize those Vatican minds are more enlightened than yours. Do you understand the mind of God? Could you be suffering from a case of intellectual pride ?
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
And what, according to current bac theology, is the difference between a Scriptural “doctrinal statement” and a Scriptural “practical statement,” and who or what made you or whomever the decider on this difference? The head bac RATIONALIZER??
Your twisted views on justification are exactly what St. James is preaching against, and it most definitely IS a doctrinal statement!
R
ryanoneil
Guest
And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us. (1 John 3:23-24)
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SHW
Guest
Hey Ryan!
MD does not want to “get” it, me thinks.
And the Holy Spirit whom He gave us at our Baptisms remains in us (abides in us) unless we commit sin that defiles our souls/temples. If we sin deliberately after we are justified by Baptism, then the Holy Spirit no longer abides in us. (Hebrews 10:26-30)
Since the Holy Spirit is our Guarantee of salvation, when He leaves because of our sins against God’s commandments, we are then no longer justified. If we die in this abysmal state, then God destroys us. (2 Corinthians 1:22, 1 Corinthians 3:16-17)
The Holy Spirit must be found abiding in our souls/temples when we die in order for us to inherit eternal life. We are approved for eternal life by the Holy Spirit’s presence in our souls/temples at the time of our deaths. (James 1:12)
I do not see how persons like MD can keep denying the fact that their own free will actions (good or bad) determine where they spend eternity.
Romans 2:5-11 “But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.”
Galatians 6:7-8 “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Moondweller, it does not need to be any plainer than this!
Pax,
SHW
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AmbroseSJ
Guest
Unfortunately, it is an effective deceit which oppresses the unwary that they submit to a strange stealth doctrine, which hides itself, so that the poor deluded soul is certain that what he believes is contained in Scripture which he fancies he found himself, rather than in this malignant doctrine, wherein he must first abandon his reason and good judgment. That is why I feel they are oppressed with an irrational bigotry.
The proof of this is in the fact that these people are incapable of admitting that they are under the influence of a doctrine through which all of the Scriptures are distorted. If they could at the very least admit this, it would be possible to have a rational dialogue with them. But as they are in such a fog, nothing can pierce the miasma of denial, and irrational bigotry.
Even mainline Protestants will admit that they adhere to certain doctrinal principles, through which they view and interpret the Scriptures. But fundies (bacs) have no such clarity of mind.
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BRB1
Guest
MD…
I see you are starting to quote John more … not just Paul.
Lets look at John’s testimony to Christ’s teaching on salavation.John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
This single verse, out of context, could give support your beliefs for ‘faith alone’ … being sufficient to salvation. However, read further in John, for the full context of teaching of Christ.
John 5:25-29 Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, THOSE WHO HAVE DONE GOOD, to the resurrection of life, and THOSE WHO HAVE DONE EVIL, to the resurrection of judgment.
MD … belief claimed in Christ [unsupported by actions], is dead. James, John, Paul, and Christ so teach the COMPLETE truth. Scripture is more than single verses you pick and choose … arriving at potentially errant ideas.
This is what the wise ones in the Vatican have done for the Church. Catholicism teaches context and the FULL GOSPEL. Your situation is like Apollos’ [in Book of Acts] … being in need of the Vatican [Priscilla & Aquila church equivalents] to ‘expound the way of God more accurately’.
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ryanoneil
Guest
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast. For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:8-10)
Belief and good works are divine gifts. They are only made possible by the grace of God. Works of the law can be accomplished by men and he can boast about them (but they don’t save). Works of righeousness can not be accomplished by our own natural strength and we can’t boast about them. Only by the supernatural help of the Spirit can we be faithful, humble, obedient, and loving in a way that pleases the Lord. That is the difference between “works of the Law” and “good works”.
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Rom 2:5-8)
**So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Phil 2:12-13)
For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. (Rom 3:28)
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24)**
The only way to understand these verses is to understand the distinction between “works of the law” and “good works”. Both Paul and James preached that proper conduct can only come about with an authentic commitment to God in faith (which was true of Abraham before the time of the Mosaic Law).
So, when God weighs everything in the balance of divine justice, He will determine his verdict on the same basis found in the OT.
If you say, “I know not this man!” does not he who tests hearts perceive it? He who guards your life knows it, and he will repay each one according to his deeds. (Prov 24:12)
It is confirmed by Jesus.
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. (Mt 16:27)
It is reiterated by the apostles.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. (2 Cor 5:10)
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SHW
Guest
Hi AmbroseSJ and Ryanoneil and BRB1,
Thanks for your Scripture and comment supports.
I have continued to post to this thread in order to show Catholics how deeply grounded in Scripture our Catholic faith/beliefs are. I think that Moondweller and others like him/her are deliberately closing their minds to the truth because the thought of the Catholic Church being the true Church is abhorrent to them.
What they do not realize is that Jesus is very offended when they do this. It is His Church that they are rejecting and by doing so, they are also actually rejecting Him.
Luke 10:16 "He who hears you (Church) hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
Pax,
SHW
Thanks for your Scripture and comment supports.
I have continued to post to this thread in order to show Catholics how deeply grounded in Scripture our Catholic faith/beliefs are. I think that Moondweller and others like him/her are deliberately closing their minds to the truth because the thought of the Catholic Church being the true Church is abhorrent to them.
What they do not realize is that Jesus is very offended when they do this. It is His Church that they are rejecting and by doing so, they are also actually rejecting Him.
Luke 10:16 "He who hears you (Church) hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”
John 12:48 “He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
Pax,
SHW
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AliciaCL
Guest
Maybe this is simplistic, or not, and layered with meaning. Abide means to agree with, consent to, share in, commune with as in Holy Communion. If people prepare themselves for communion, and partake, they are abiding in Christ. We can blow it, lose it, and still return to abiding. While Protestants cannot partake of the Eucharist, they can still agree with, consent to, share in, commune with and abide in Christ spiritually.
(Still don’t see why they reject the Eucharist. It’s Christ, the Passover Lamb, the best of the flock, sacrificed, with blood shed, and eaten to commune with God in the O.T. and the N.T. Avoiding that truth is like the single bullet theory of Kennedy’s assasination, it takes a few right turns that defy physics but in the end, it’s proven it was so logically, the only one.)
(Still don’t see why they reject the Eucharist. It’s Christ, the Passover Lamb, the best of the flock, sacrificed, with blood shed, and eaten to commune with God in the O.T. and the N.T. Avoiding that truth is like the single bullet theory of Kennedy’s assasination, it takes a few right turns that defy physics but in the end, it’s proven it was so logically, the only one.)
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cheeto1
Guest
So you are saying that to abide in Christ means to have faith and keep Jesus’
commands. Now we know.
On the other part, faith vs. works, People who have faith only, don’t
want to be judged, and rightly so, since it’s not for us to judge where someone
else spends eternity. We can’t even judge ourselves until we die.
I have never seen such a magnificent collection of scripture on both sides of this
issue, this is a truly awesome effort on both sides.
I have noticed that it is impossible to wake up in the morning and Not do works.
Every single thing we do is a work, whether it is good or bad.
So the question isn’t “are there any good works”, but rather “are the works good
or bad?” Which kind will the saved do?
commands. Now we know.
On the other part, faith vs. works, People who have faith only, don’t
want to be judged, and rightly so, since it’s not for us to judge where someone
else spends eternity. We can’t even judge ourselves until we die.
I have never seen such a magnificent collection of scripture on both sides of this
issue, this is a truly awesome effort on both sides.
I have noticed that it is impossible to wake up in the morning and Not do works.
Every single thing we do is a work, whether it is good or bad.
So the question isn’t “are there any good works”, but rather “are the works good
or bad?” Which kind will the saved do?
M
moondweller
Guest
But God the Son didn’t always exist as the Man Christ Jesus. As a Man He accomplished the work of redemption on the cross and it’s recorded in Scripture that"…all sinned and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His (God’s) grace through the redemption which is in (the Man) Christ Jesus;"
quote=Moondweller Justification is not Jesus giving us a clean slate. Justification is giving the believer a right standing before God.
[/quote]
Again, justification doesn’t give any man a “clean slate.” However, forgiveness of sins through Christ’s sacrificial, substitutionary death on the cross certainly does (Col. 2:13-14). But with justification God, by His grace alone, takes it one infinite step further and credits (reckons) to the believer’s account the righteousness of God Himself.
IOW, Justification isn’t about a clean slate but a slate full of Divine righteousness. And for this reason, says Paul, the true believer has “peace with God” (Rom. 5:1-2).
“There is no God” (Ps. 14:1).
In context Paul is saying that it’s through FAITH alone that God justifies (which is what the Book of Galatians all about). But it (justification) manifests itself in love, and all good works. However, it’s faith alone through which God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) , not the love nor the good works which may follow. We don’t reject works; God forbid, we commend them and teach them in the highest degree. It’s not on their own account that we condemn works, but on the perverse notion of seeking justification, or maintaining justification, by them.
You want to keep the Commandments of the Decalogue for salvation, SHW, But you don’t want to accept the fact that if you’re going to embrace Commandment keeping for salvation then you’re obligated to keep the WHOLE Law. Good luck on that, my friend. Even Peter testified of such a burden put as a yoke around their and the father’s necks which they could not bear. He speaks clearly concerning salvation for both Jews and Gentiles:Acts 15:7-10 "After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."That “same way,” SHW, is by GRACE through FAITH alone. God knows a believing heart. And are you not to believe as Peter believed, SHW?
This is said in the context of those who have believed unto salvation. It’s believers that fear him, not unbelievers. It’s born again believers, saved by grace through faith, that follow through with “works of righteousness.” Notice what happened even before any works were ever performed - even before baptism was administered - only belief upon hearing the gospel of Christ:Acts 10:43-44 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.Faith alone, my friend.
M
moondweller
Guest
Here’s what Scripture says:1 Pet 1:18-19 "…knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, {the blood} of Christ.Hence, baptism redeems no one. The purchase price paid for redemption was not water but the precious blood of God’s Lamb.Gal 3:26 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."Men become sons of God through FAITH in Christ Jesus. Apart from personal faith in Christ you can baptize a person a hundred times a day and he’ll never be a “son of God.”
The “crown of life” is not a crown of salvation. But it’s the “saved by grace through faith” that receive crowns. One is not saved by Divine testing but “by grace through faith” (Eph. 2:8).
Notice that Paul differentiates believers from the “sons of disobedience” by saying “do not be partakers with them?” It’s upon the “sons of disobedience,” not the “sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus” that the wrath of God will come. But Paul assures every true believer that they are not destined for wrath (1 Thess. 1:10; 5:9).
I know you claim that your 'faith plus works" gospel is Biblical, but when taken out of context even the atheist can say, “there is no God,” is “Biblical.”
M
moondweller
Guest
If you’ve read my posts then you’d see I quote Christ and ALL the N.T. writers. As well as O.T. writers where topically and contextually applicable.
In that single verse Christ presents the gospel message he sent out with His Apostles in a nutshell - after His sacrificial death and bodily resurrection. But that message you disbelieve.
It’s those who have believed and are saved who have done “good” (Eph. 2:8-10), and they will participate in the “resurrection of LIFE.” As Jesus said, upon belief they were given, giftwise, eternal life, and they “do not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life.” Theirs is the “resurrection of LIFE.”
Now, those who have done evil pertains to the unbeliever who rejects the Word of God, and they will participate in the “resurrection of judgment” because they have not believed the Word of God concerning His Son (1 Jn. 5:9-13).
But the resurrection of the believer is unto LIFE - not judgment. As Jesus said, he “does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into LIFE.”
The resurrection described in Rev. 20:11-15 is that of the “dead.” Not those who “have passed out of death into LIFE” through faith in Christ. Get it?
Personally, IMHO, I don’t see it as a “full gospel” but rather a “gospel” FULL of contradictions.
D
davidv
Guest
…is dead.
- Status