What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[AmbroseSJ]

Not quite. SHW argues the Catholic position that God “will save” (future tense) based not on faith itself but the proof of it. Translated: Salvation by works.

No, you’re wrong again. Quote the number of the post where SHW said what you just avouched.

If you could EVER see past the heavy curtain of irrational bigotry, which fills your head, viz; thinking that Catholics believe they are saved by works, as you just said above, you might actually learn something. This must be some sort of defense mechanism to make up for the fact that you don’t have any rational logic with which to counter the Catholic argument.

So far all you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that you have extremely poor reading comprehension, or a virulent irrational bigotry against Catholics. No matter how many ways they say it’s not true, you still charge them with believing in Works over Faith.

Part of the problem is your own inadequate theology, picked up from your Moody Bible Institute minister (assuming you even attend any sort of bac gathering), which tries to make an EITHER/OR situation out of Faith and Works, instead of the true Scriptural Theology which says Works are proof of Faith.

See SHW’s post #712, but I think it is too deep for you to grasp. But try and meditate on it for a while, and you may come to see.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

SHW: Thanks for your prayer of the neglects! I memorized it and say it before retiring every night now.

 

[SHW]

SHW: Thanks for your prayer of the neglects! I memorized it and say it before retiring every night now.

You’re welcome.

It seems that Moondweller cannot see that Catholics believe that we are first saved by grace alone. Only Jesus could redeem us because only He is both God and Man and only He could be a Mediator between God and man after Adam sinned. (Hebrews 9:15, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Romans 5) Also, only Jesus could atone for our personal sins so completely that we no longer have to sacrifice animals as blood sacrifices every year in order to atone for these personal sins. Jesus’ sacrifice satisfies God’s justice for the blood atonement for all sin but we still have personal responsibility to atone for our own personal sins. (Matthew 3:8)

Our redemption by Jesus through Baptism (1 Corinthians 6:11) makes it possible for us to inherit eternal life but it does not guarantee that we will inherit eternal life. We cannot inherit eternal life unless we remain (abide) in Christ until death. If we sin mortal sins and do not repent before death, then we will not inherit eternal life. (Ephesians 5:1-7) Jesus reconciles us to God first through Baptism, but then we are responsible to remain reconciled to God until death in order to inherit eternal life. God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us to do this and He remains in us and guides us unless and until we defile our temples with mortal sin. (Hebrews 10:26-30, 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

We remain saved by both faith and works as stated in James 2 and Galatians 5:6. Good works are proof that we have faith. We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works. I do not see faith mentioned in Scriptures which speak of Judgment Day. (Matthew 25:31-46, Titus 1:16, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, Romans 2:5-8) I only see our “works” judged, and this is because they are either proof of a saving faith which approves us for a crown of eternal life, or else they are proof of a dead faith which does not save us and which condemns us to hell for eternity. (James 1:12)

Most of Scripture deals with sin and how it affects our relationship (as nation and as individuals) with God. No one can be saved apart from God’s grace and no one is saved unless he cooperates with God’s grace and becomes a new creation in Christ and remains in this fellowship (abides) with God until death. (Galatians 6:14-16)

Pax,
SHW

 

[fbl9]

You continue to not believe the Word of God. According to Divine revelation salvation is not based on one’s strength “in the face of temptation;” nor do the saved suffer loss of salvation based on their weakness “in the face of temptation.” But instead it’s revealed: Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

One recieves saving grace not by their own works “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” but as a free gift of God.By “behaving” one maintians this saving grace…You moondweller are saying there is no maintianing to be done, nothing one can do will change anything…WE do disagree then in that your version of the true holds free license to sin, because that seems to what you are saying…and what is there to stop you from being worse then Hilter,nothing…

 

[moondweller]

fb19:

One recieves saving grace not by their own works “for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” but as a free gift of God.By “behaving” one maintians this saving grace…You moondweller are saying there is no maintianing to be done, nothing one can do will change anything…

According to Scripture men are “saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). The save are kept by that same grace (Heb. 7:25). Believers are saved through His sacrificial death and kept by His risen life.

WE do disagree then in that your version of the true holds free license to sin, because that seems to what you are saying…and what is there to stop you from being worse then Hilter,nothing…

Hitler was raised RC; did it stop him?

**How does:**Rom 6:11-14 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin {as} instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members {as} instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace…"sound like a license to sin to you?

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Are you trying to be funny? Your isolated verse cannot stand alone and portray the intended meaning, but mine can. Only a fool says there is no God. They even have their own day set aside for them. It is called April Fools’ Day.

Ahhhh, so you do understand and agree that every verse has a context; and you would agree that every verse taken out of context is a pretext. If any verse has a context Ja. 2:24 certainly does. And because you present Ja. 2:24 as a context within itself you cannot understand what James is saying - in context.

Like I’ve said before, you do not understand redemption and salvation. Jesus redeemed us on the cross

That’s called “universal redemption.” We discussed this earlier. Christ accomplished and finished the work of redemption on the cross. His work of redemption is applied, in full, only at the time of faith in Him, not before.

and through baptism,

The price paid for the believer’s eternal redemption was Christ’s precious blood, not water.

we receive the benefits of His redemption.

You can baptize a person all day long but apart from personal faith in Christ His work of redemption does not apply.

This redemption justifies us

Redemption is a payment. Redemption doesn’t justify anyone, it purchases a man from the slave market of sin (agorazo), removes him (exagorazo), never to return (lutroo).

(makes us friends of God)

That’s Divine reconciliation, not redemption. Reconciliation is another work Christ finished on the cross and is applied, in full, at the time of personal belief in Him.

and then we are required to abide (remain) in this relationship with Him until death if we desire to inherit eternal life.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

John 3:36 “He who believes (o pisteuôn) in the Son has eternal life; but he that believes not (o de apeithôn) the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

It is not a “one-time” deal and then we are “saved forever”. This is contrary to Scripture.

Eph 2:5 “…even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

The Apostles spent most of their time exhorting persons to remain in this saving relationship with God.

There is much admonishment and instruction in the Epistles on how the saved are to behave, but nothing on how to remain saved. But when it comes to salvation itself Paul and his companions said: Acts 16:31 “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,…”

What are we judged on, on Judgment Day? We are not judged on our faith alone. We are judged on our works as proof of our faith. Faith is not even mentioned on Judgment Day according to the Scriptures.

No one gets saved on what you call “Judgment Day” (Rev. 20:11-15) On that day “the dead” are raised and go before God, not the living (i.e., those who have been “made alive” in Christ, Eph. 2:5). For every person presently living on earth the Apostolic message is: “Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION.” There is no salvation after this present life. According to the Scriptures now you must believe. Now is the day to be saved.

“Belief” cannot be separated from “obedience” when it concerns faith. There cannot be one without the other.

Obedience is always the “obedience of faith.” To obey is to believe, to believe is to obey the gospel.

Disobedience is unbelief. Belief is obedience. We must obey God’s commandments in order to inherit eternal life. We must bear good fruits in order to enter eternal life. We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works.

If you should find yourself standing before the “white throne” then you are one of the “dead” (Rev. 20:11-15), having never believed and “made alive” in Christ, hence you were never redeemed (purchased with His blood), never reconciled to God through Christ, never justified (through faith), but still dead in your sins (Jn. 8:24; cf. Rev. 1:5); still “in Adam” having never been gifted eternal life in the risen Christ, the “Last Adam” (Rom. 6:23; Jn. 5:24).

Salvation is a process, not a one-time event. I was saved through baptism.

No one is saved on a baptismal assembly line.

I am being saved right now because I am proving my love for God by obeying His commandments and doing good works (faith working through love Galatians 5:6) and if I continue to do this until death, then God will approve of me for inheriting eternal life, and so then I will be saved for eternity.

SHW, are you a cradle Catholic or did you convert via RCIA?

 

[moondweller]

SHW:

Scripture does not state that Jesus is the “only” intercessor. Scripture states that Jesus is the only “Mediator” between God and Man. We should all be “intercessors” according to Scripture.

And can you show me by example in Scripture where any of the Apostles prayed to angels to intercede for them? Can you show me anywhere where we’re instructed to pray to angels to intercede for us?

Do you see that Paul is exhorting the brethren to intercede for all men?

I don’t see where he mentions angels, do you?

Catholics also believe that since the prayers of a righteous man avails much (1 Peter 3:12), then the angels and saints in heaven are also interceding for their brethren on earth and that we can ask them to pray for us.

You’re simply believing an assertion. You have no Divine support.

There are none more righteous than those who are already in heaven seeing God face to face.

Being in heaven doesn’t make any man righteous. Men are gifted righteousness in Christ (Rom. 5:17-19; 6:23) and reckoned righteousness through faith in Him alone (Rom. 4:5). No man now in heaven is more righteous than I am on earth. Both their and my righteousness is a foreign righteousness: “…that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”

As for the angelic realm, Satan himself disguises himself and an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14). That’s why you must appeal to the Scriptures for sound doctrine.

Those persons who say that the saints in heaven and our guardian angels cannot help us on earth are trying to limit God’s power and His graces. (Genesis 28:12, Revelation 8:2-4)

No, they’re just not assigning Divine attributes to them the way you do.

 

[moondweller]

AmbroseSJ:

If you could EVER see past the heavy curtain of irrational bigotry,

"Irrational bigotry: Translated “Biblical accuracy.”

See SHW’s post #712, but I think it is too deep for you to grasp. But try and meditate on it for a while, and you may come to see.

It’s not “deep” at all. Of all SHW’s posts it’s #712 that demonstrates his belief in salvation by works most succinctly. Good job SHW!

 

[SHW]

According to Scripture men are “saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). The save are kept by that same grace (Heb. 7:25). Believers are saved through His sacrificial death and kept by His risen life.Hitler was raised RC; did it stop him?

**How does:**Rom 6:11-14 "Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin {as} instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members {as} instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace…"sound like a license to sin to you?

Scripture does not state that we are “kept saved by His risen life.” We are kept saved if we continue to abide in Christ. It is true that we have Jesus’ life to imitate in order to remain saved, but if we don’t imitate His life in holiness, then we will no longer be saved.
**
For another thing, when you sin, then you are no longer under grace.** Very important point. The Law of Liberty is only for those who do not sin. Once a person sins, then he is no longer under the law of liberty, but is instead convicted by the law as transgressors.

James 2:5-13 “Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.”Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.”

James is stressing that it only takes committing one sin against one commandment in order to lose your position under the law of liberty and instead become a transgressor of the law and be condemned. This is why Jesus states: “But if you want to enter into (eternal) life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:16-24)

Luke 10:25-28 "And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ 28 And He said to him, 'You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.’”

Colossians 3:5-7 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

Like I said, once you return to sin, you are no longer covered under the law of liberty but are instead subjected to the wrath of God, unless you repent before death. You go from your status as “sons of God” to “sons of disobedience” when you sin. Sons of disobedience do not inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 5:5-7 “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”

OSAS is not a true doctrine. Eternal Security is not a true doctrine. Scripture points this out over and over. Why don’t you believe it? Salvation is a life-long process and we inherit eternal life only if we are “approved.” We have to prove that we love Jesus in order to inherit eternal life. We “love” Jesus by obeying His commandments and doing the will of His Father in heaven. (James 1:12, 2 Corinthians 10:18, 1 John 5:3, John 15:10, 1 John 2:3-4, 1 Corinthians 7:19, John 14:21, Matthew 7:21-23, Ephesians 2:10)

Pax,
SHW

Hitler rejected both God and Catholicism when he came into his power and he is now paying for his sins.
davidmacd.com/catholic/was_hitler_a_catholic.htm

 

[moondweller]

Scripture does not state that we are "kept saved by His risen life.

True believers are kept (by grace) by His risen life:Heb. 1:3 "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"And it’s revealed that at the right hand of the Majesty on High He’s functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. If and when the believer sins John says:1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;"Because He was raised with an indestructible life, therefore He, the Man Christ Jesus, lives forever. The writer of Hebrews says concerning the Priesthood of Christ and the believer’s eternal salvation:Heb 7:24-25 "…but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.The true believer is no longer identified with the dead in Adam, but of those who died with Christ (to sin) and were raised up with Him to new life:Eph 2:4-6 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,"Yes, SHW, the Scriptures reveal that all true believers are kept by the same Divine grace that saved them. We are saved by grace and kept by grace, being now identified in the risen Christ whose life cannot end. It’s called eternal life in the risen Christ. As John the Apostle clearly teaches:1 John 5:9-13 “If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

It is true that we have Jesus’ life to imitate in order to remain saved

No, it doesn’t say that we have the life of Christ to “imitate,” but that God has given us (true believers) eternal life, and that this life is IN THE SON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE." That’s “eternal life,” Christ’s resurrected life, my friend.

It’s this revealed truth concerning the risen Christ and the believer’s new life in Him that you war against and, in unbelief, refuse to accept.

but if we don’t imitate His life in holiness, then we will no longer be saved.

The saved were saved “by grace through faith;” they’re no longer in Adam but now in the risen Christ, the “Last Adam.” God has revealed in the Scriptures that the believer’s history in Adam ended at Calvary, as did their relationship to sin when, with Christ, they died to it (sin), once for all:2 Cor 5:17 “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.”

For another thing, when you sin, then you are no longer under grace. Very important point. The Law of Liberty is only for those who do not sin.

No, my friend, the “law of liberty” pertains to those who through faith in Him, died with Him and are now "freed from sin."Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? …Rom 6:7 “…for he who has died is freed from sin.”

Once a person sins, then he is no longer under the law of liberty, but is instead convicted by the law as transgressors.

The Law of Moses with its Decalogue made those under it transgressors of Law (definite Divine commandments).Gal 3:23-27 “But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ (united, cf. 1 Cor. 12:13, by the Holy Spirit) have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

OSAS is not a true doctrine. Eternal Security is not a true doctrine. Scripture points this out over and over. Why don’t you believe it?

My faith is in Christ in whom I have eternal life. I don’t put my faith in one man’s assertion, but rather in Divine Revelation.

Salvation is a life-long process and we inherit eternal life only if we are “approved.”

Salvation is a gift (Eph. 2:8).1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.”

 

[fbl9]

True believers are kept (by grace) by His risen life:Heb. 1:3 "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"And it’s revealed that at the right hand of the Majesty on High He’s functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. If and when the believer sins John says:1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;"Because He was raised with an indestructible life, therefore He, the Man Christ Jesus, lives forever. The writer of Hebrews says concerning the Priesthood of Christ and the believer’s eternal salvation:Heb 7:24-25 "…but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.The true believer is no longer identified with the dead in Adam, but of those who died with Christ (to sin) and were raised up with Him to new life:Eph 2:4-6 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,"Yes, SHW, the Scriptures reveal that all true believers are kept by the same Divine grace that saved them. We are saved by grace and kept by grace, being now identified in the risen Christ whose life cannot end. It’s called eternal life in the risen Christ. As John the Apostle clearly teaches:1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.“No, it doesn’t say that we have the life of Christ to “imitate,” but that God has given us (true believers) eternal life, and that this life is IN THE SON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE.” That’s “eternal life,” Christ’s resurrected life, my friend.

It’s this revealed truth concerning the risen Christ and the believer’s new life in Him that you war against and, in unbelief, refuse to accept.The saved were saved “by grace through faith;” they’re no longer in Adam but now in the risen Christ, the “Last Adam.” God has revealed in the Scriptures that the believer’s history in Adam ended at Calvary, as did their relationship to sin when, with Christ, they died to it (sin), once for all:2 Cor 5:17 "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."No, my friend, the “law of liberty” pertains to those who through faith in Him, died with Him and are now "freed from sin."Rom 6:1-2 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? …Rom 6:7 "…for he who has died is freed from sin."The Law of Moses with its Decalogue made those under it transgressors of Law (definite Divine commandments).Gal 3:23-27 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ (united, cf. 1 Cor. 12:13, by the Holy Spirit) have clothed yourselves with Christ."My faith is in Christ in whom I have eternal life. I don’t put my faith in one man’s assertion, but rather in Divine Revelation.Salvation is a gift (Eph. 2:8).1 John 5:11 “And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.”

are you sinless then moondwell? No you will say yet cause you are dead to sin it has no effect on your salvation…so why bother repenting of sins it has no effect one way or the other.

What you don’t beleive that God can take away that which He has given?.

 

[SHW]

True believers are kept (by grace) by His risen life:Heb. 1:3 "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,"And it’s revealed that at the right hand of the Majesty on High He’s functioning there as the believer’s High Priest. If and when the believer sins John says:1 John 2:1-2 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins;"Because He was raised with an indestructible life, therefore He, the Man Christ Jesus, lives forever. The writer of Hebrews says concerning the Priesthood of Christ and the believer’s eternal salvation:Heb 7:24-25 "…but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.The true believer is no longer identified with the dead in Adam, but of those who died with Christ (to sin) and were raised up with Him to new life:Eph 2:4-6 "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,"Yes, SHW, the Scriptures reveal that all true believers are kept by the same Divine grace that saved them. We are saved by grace and kept by grace, being now identified in the risen Christ whose life cannot end. It’s called eternal life in the risen Christ. As John the Apostle clearly teaches:1 John 5:9-13 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.“No, it doesn’t say that we have the life of Christ to “imitate,” but that God has given us (true believers) eternal life, and that this life is IN THE SON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS THE LIFE.” That’s “eternal life,” Christ’s resurrected life, my friend.

Moondweller, Moondweller, Moondweller,

The key here is “he who has the Son has the life.” How does a person “have the Son?”

He has the Son when he continues to abide in Christ. If he does not continue to abide in Christ, then he no longer “has the Son.” You seem to believe that once a person is saved, that they cannot lose their salvation, or else they never really believed in the first place so they never were saved. This is false reasoning.

A righteous person loses his salvation by committing iniquity. First he becomes righteous, and then when he sins, he loses his righteousness. This is biblical. Your understanding is not.

Ezekiel 33:12-18 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die (lose eternal life). 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.”

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Scripture passage in the New Testament:

Mark 4:1-20 "The Parable of the Sower
1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea. 2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:
3 “Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4 And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it. 5 Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6 But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7 And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8 But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
9 And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

The Purpose of Parables

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that
‘ Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”

The Parable of the Sower Explained

13 And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word. 15 And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word’s sake, immediately they stumble. 18 Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word, 19 and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”
**
Hear the Word, accept it, and bear fruit.** These are 3 conditions necessary for salvation given to us by Jesus. So, if you do not bear fruit until death, but instead commit sin, then you are no longer righteous, and you will not inherit eternal life.

If we draw back to perdition, then we are no longer saved:

Hebrews 10:32-39 “But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “ For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.”

“Live by faith” means to continue to abide in Christ. This “living by faith” and “believing to the saving of the soul” requires obedience to God’s commandments and fulfilling His will for us.

If we do not do these things, then we “draw back to perdition” and our spiritual condition is now worse than if we had never believed in the first place:

2 Peter 2:20-21 “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller, Moondweller, Moondweller,

The key here is “he who has the Son has the life.” How does a person “have the Son?”

He has the Son when he continues to abide in Christ. If he does not continue to abide in Christ, then he no longer “has the Son.” You seem to believe that once a person is saved, that they cannot lose their salvation, or else they never really believed in the first place so they never were saved. This is false reasoning.

Acts 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Acts 16:30-31 "…and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"It’s God Himself who saves, by His grace through faith. That’s faith in the Person and work of Christ, SHW, not in baptism or subsequent works. Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"Saved means just that, “SAVED;” “delivered,” "rescued."Rom 8:32 "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Col 1:13 “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,”

A righteous person loses his salvation by committing iniquity.

You’ve got that backward, my friend. “There is NONE righteous, no not even one” (Rom. 3:10). Now here’s the gospel (good news):Rom 3:23 “for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”

First he becomes righteous, and then when he sins, he loses his righteousness. This is biblical. Your understanding is not.

You don’t understand the Bible because you’re still in a state of unbelief in thinking righteousness is through works. But it’s God who justifies, and that based on faith alone:Rom 4:4-6 “Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his (baptism? NO) faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”

“Live by faith” means to continue to abide in Christ. This “living by faith” and “believing to the saving of the soul” requires obedience to God’s commandments and fulfilling His will for us.

Rom 3:21-22 “But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;”

If we do not do these things, then we “draw back to perdition” and our spiritual condition is now worse than if we had never believed in the first place:

2 Peter 2:20-21 “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

It’s one thing to escape the pollutions of the world through mere knowledge of the Lord (we’ve had 2000 years of Christendom), but yet another thing altogether to believe in Him unto salvation. Many have escaped the pollution of this world through knowledge of the Lord (religious), but still die in their sins because they refuse to actually believe in Him. Their faith being in their works, not in the one who “justifies the ungodly.” It’s that faith that God credits as righteousness. A righteousness “that comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9b) - not works.

 

[SHW]

Acts 15:11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Acts 16:30-31 "…and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,"It’s God Himself who saves, by His grace through faith. That’s faith in the Person and work of Christ, SHW, not in baptism or subsequent works. Rom 8:32 "He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

You really need to look at Scripture as a whole instead of just narrowly seeing the verses which seem to support your interpretation. NONE OF THESE SCRIPTURE VERSES STATE THAT YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION. These verses tell you how to become saved in the first place (by grace alone). He freely gives us all things necessary for our salvation if we obey Jesus’ gospel. (Matthew 10:33, Titus 1:16, 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:8)

Col 1:13 "For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,"You’ve got that backward, my friend. “There is NONE righteous, no not even one” (Rom. 3:10). Now here’s the gospel (good news):Rom 3:23 "for all sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"You don’t understand the Bible because you’re still in a state of unbelief in thinking righteousness is through works. But it’s God who justifies, and that based on faith alone:Rom 4:4-6 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his (baptism? NO) faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:"Rom 3:21-22 "But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe;"It’s one thing to escape the pollutions of the world through mere knowledge of the Lord (we’ve had 2000 years of Christendom), but yet another thing altogether to believe in Him unto salvation. Many have escaped the pollution of this world through knowledge of the Lord (religious), but still die in their sins because they refuse to actually believe in Him. Their faith being in their works, not in the one who “justifies the ungodly.” It’s that faith that God credits as righteousness. A righteousness “that comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9b) - not works.

Paul is quoting the Psalms (there is none righteous, not even one). He is stating that no one is righteous because all have sinned through Adam’ sin since they inherited it from Adam. Paul is teaching them that Jesus redeemed us on the cross as a free gift of grace. He NEVER states that we are saved by faith ALONE. Never does he state this. You assume and believe this but it is not Biblical. Scripture cannot contradict itself.

James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

According to the OT, Abraham and Noah are righteous in God’s eyes. I see no contradiction here. Yet, Jesus never sinned according to Adam’s sin and neither did His Mother, but I am not going to debate this fact on this thread so there are two exceptions to “all.”

How is Abraham righteous in God’s eyes? Abraham is righteous because he believed God. Of what did his believing consist?

James 2:20-22 “But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?”

Obedience must follow belief or it is not belief, but is instead unbelief.

Hebrews 3:18-19 “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Obedience is belief. Disobedience is unbelief.

Hebrews 3:12-18 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:“ Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Disobedience is the same as unbelief. Obedience is the same as belief.

Unless you believe to the saving of the soul (obedience to God until death) then you will not enter eternal life. Eternal life is conditional upon our own free will choices after our initial justification.

Pax,
SHW

 

[distracted]

What does it mean to abide “in Christ?”

to me it means spending a lot of time with Jesus in the

***Real Presence… ***

in silence, listening…

Why do so few Catholics seem to do this? (Or do i just go to the “wrong” Church or soemthing???)

 

[SHW]

to me it means spending a lot of time with Jesus in the

***Real Presence… ***

in silence, listening…

Why do so few Catholics seem to do this? (Or do i just go to the “wrong” Church or soemthing???)

We are blessed in that we have Eucharistic adoration M-F in our Church chapel. I try to spend time there each week. We do not need to go to Lourdes or Fatima (even though this is a pious practice) since He is present to us in the Holy Eucharist in our local Churches.

Pax,
SHW

 

[moondweller]

You really need to look at Scripture as a whole instead of just narrowly seeing the verses which seem to support your interpretation. NONE OF THESE SCRIPTURE VERSES STATE THAT YOU CANNOT LOSE YOUR SALVATION.

That’s right my friend. Nor are there any that state such a thing because it’s God Himself who saves at the time of belief in Christ alone. God has either saved you, or He has not. And that through faith in Christ alone.

These verses tell you how to become saved in the first place (by grace alone).

Yes, it’s God who saves by His grace though faith in Christ alone.

He freely gives us all things necessary for our salvation if we obey Jesus’ gospel. (Matthew 10:33, Titus 1:16, 1 Peter 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 1:8)

No, He doesn’t give us all things “necessary” for salvation, but rather, Paul states that since He didn’t spare His own Son for our salvation but delivered Him over (to death) for us, it should be evident to us that He freely gives us all things as well. To the unbeliever, however, such grace is not evident.

Paul is quoting the Psalms (there is none righteous, not even one). He is stating that no one is righteous because all have sinned through Adam’ sin since they inherited it from Adam. Paul is teaching them that Jesus redeemed us on the cross as a free gift of grace.

It matters not what Paul is quoting. The sweeping point he’s making is the FACT that there are NONE righteous and that ALL (Jew and Gentile alike) are “under sin” (Rom. 3:9) and continually fall short of the glory of God. But God Himself has freely provided a righteousness, “even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who (are baptized? NO; do righteous works? NO; obey the 10 Commandments? NO; but) BELIEVE” (Rom. 3:22). “Being justified as a gift by His grace through (baptism? NO; good works? NO; sacraments? NO; alms giving? NO; prayers? NO; pilgrimages? NO; immolation, NO; but) the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.”

He NEVER states that we are saved by faith ALONE.

Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Acts 16:30-31 “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…,”

You assume and believe this but it is not Biblical.

Yet there it is in all it’s textual glory.

Scripture cannot contradict itself. James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

“There is no God” (Ps. 14:1)

Obedience is belief. Disobedience is unbelief.

I agree.

Hebrews 3:12-18

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;Notice the “evil heart of UNBELIEF?”

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

This is not a stated condition for salvation, but a manifestation of it.

Unless you believe to the saving of the soul (obedience to God until death) then you will not enter eternal life. Eternal life is conditional upon our own free will choices after our initial justification.

Two false premises here. (1) Eternal life is not what one enters into at the end of one’s life, but is a possession one now “HAS” through belief in Jesus Christ (Jn. 5:24; 1 Jn. 5:13). (2) “Initial justification” is not a Biblical term. It originated not in the mind of God but in the minds of those who walk the halls of the Vatican.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

SHW:

Scripture cannot contradict itself. James 2:24 “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

“There is no God” (Ps. 14:1)

Here is the IMBECILITY of your Scripture comparison:

The Royal Prophet says “The fool says in his heart ‘There is no God’”

You rip the last phrase out of its context, showing that out of context quotes can be invalid. Then you try to say that what James is clearly saying in the quote above, is devoid of meaning also, as it is ripped out of context. Ok, lets see what James says before and after that quote:

20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Now, if you can refrain from spiritualizing, allegorizing and rationalizing and let the Scripture speak for itself, which you claim is your special talent; then you will see that THERE IS NO COMPARISON AT ALL between “There is no God” and the Quote from ST. James.

 

[moondweller]

Here is the IMBECILITY of your Scripture comparison:

The Royal Prophet says “The fool says in his heart ‘There is no God’”

You rip the last phrase out of its context, showing that out of context quotes can be invalid. Then you try to say that what James is clearly saying in the quote above, is devoid of meaning also, as it is ripped out of context. Ok, lets see what James says before and after that quote:

Now, if you can refrain from spiritualizing, allegorizing and rationalizing and let the Scripture speak for itself, which you claim is your special talent; then you will see that THERE IS NO COMPARISON AT ALL between “There is no God” and the Quote from ST. James.

You said nothing.