What does it mean to abide "in Christ?"

[ryanoneil]

“Obedience of faith” falls under neither law or works, but salvation "by grace through FAITH…a gift of God, not as a result of works." As Paul writes to those Galatians who wanted to be saved through the principle of obedience to law through works:Gal 2:19-21 "For through law I died to law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness {comes} through (the principle of) law, then Christ died needlessly."And based on the truth that salvation is “by grace through faith” alone he writes:Gal 3:1-10 "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed {as} crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of law, or by hearing with faith?

Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT (faith) WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse;"

Does “faith working through love” fall under salvation (along with "obedience of faith")? It is not from ourselves after all, so we can not boast.

You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal 5:4-6)

If so, you should stop saying faith alone. If faith stands by itself and fails to join with love, it is empty and vain.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

 

[davidv]

Not according to Jesus:
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,”
Dead? :dts:
John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life”.
Dead? :dts:

None of these quotes state or imply that faith is “alone”. And James categorically denies that faith alone is sufficient.

 

[ryanoneil]

That’s baptized INTO Christ, not baptized in the name of Christ. The former is done by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13) at the time of faith in Christ, the latter by men. The latter is done subsequent to the former and has no power to bring about the believer’s union with Christ. It’s not its purpose.

They are one and the same.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

 

[moondweller]

Does “faith working through love” fall under salvation (along with "obedience of faith")? It is not from ourselves after all, so we can not boast.

I addressed “faith working through love” in a previous post:"In context Paul is saying that it’s through FAITH alone that God justifies (which is what the Book of Galatians all about). *But it *(justification) manifests itself in love, and all good works. However, it’s faith alone through which God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) ,not the love nor the good works which may follow. We don’t reject works; God forbid, we commend them and teach them in the highest degree. It’s not on their own account that we condemn works, but on the perverse notion of seeking justification, or maintaining justification, by them."James, when understood in context, essentially says the same thing.

 

[moondweller]

They are one and the same.

Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38)

Not really, it’s those who believe the message of salvation that are to be, subsequently, water baptized. According to Biblical revelation only those who have believed are to be water baptized.

 

[BRB1]

If faith stands by itself and fails to join with love, it is empty and vain.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

Couldn’t be clearer ! Here Paul agrees with James in saying Faith w/o post conversion, gracious works is dead.

MD … did Judas love Christ ? Did he abide in Christ ?
He initially had faith and probably admiration for Christ, and even did spiritual works … but, he ended up a nothing [per Paul]. Paul lived a life full of works and suffering … til his martyrdom day.

Protestants often don’t appreciate the role of suffering, as taught by Christ & Paul. I used to see it as a weakness, as evidence one lacked faith or wasn’t blessed by God. We believed Christ suffered … so we wouldn’t have to. We overlooked the teaching of Christ that he came to suffer & serve man … and we must do likewise.

Catholics have a much different perspective on suffering. They share Paul’s viewpoint on necessity of it … to promote spiritual growth. Christ and his Apostles taught that we only grow in spritual understandings through trials & hardships. When our lives are going smoothly … we are not being pruned by God, and not bearing fruit.

It is impossible [from the Catholic understanding of scripture] to abide in Christ … w/o being confronted with constant hardships and trials. Once you come to appreciate the Pauline teaching regarding suffering, and the Johnnine teaching on abiding in Christ … you will grow in your admiration of the role of Catholic Church and her Vatican leaders.

 

[moondweller]

None of these quotes state or imply that faith is “alone”. And James categorically denies that faith alone is sufficient.

Both Scriptures quoting Christ Himself put belief and life (eternal) together.

James, in context, qualifies it by a mere said faith:James 2:14 "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith (he pistis) save him?Abraham believed in the Lord and the Lord credited it (his faith) to him as righteousness. Not his works. All James is saying is that the faith by which God justifies will eventually manifest itself. But it’s not at all the manifestation by which God justifies anyone. It’s one’s FAITH.

Even James quotes ONLY Gen. 15:6 where the Lord credited “IT” (his faith) to him as righteousness. He can quote no other verse because at no other time is it recorded that God credited Abraham’s faith (“IT”) to him as righteousness. Divine justification is a one time event and it’s based on faith alone, as is Divine salvation.Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"Nothing’s changed since Abraham. In fact, that’s why he’s called the father of all who believe.Gal 3:6-8 "Even so Abraham believed God, and IT was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure (fully recognize, comprehend) that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "All the nations will be blessed in you."This is a major theme in Pauline soteriology.

 

[moondweller]

Couldn’t be clearer ! Here Paul agrees with James in saying Faith w/o post conversion, gracious works is dead.

MD … did Judas love Christ ? Did he abide in Christ ?

No! and No! Nor did he believe in Him. He was instrumental in His death.

Christ Himself called him “a devil” and “the son of perdition.” Salvation is through FAITH in Christ. He is hardly described as a man of faith. In fact, John described him as “a thief” with a money box from which he constantly pilfered (Jn. 12:6).

If Judas is your example of loving Christ and abiding in Him, then sir, you’ve got a real spiritual problem that needs to be addressed immediately.

 

[moondweller]

Paul lived a life full of works and suffering … til his martyrdom day.

But it was his faith in Christ by which he was saved and justified. And that’s what he taught…till his dying day. Even preserved for us in theopnesutos Scriptures.

Protestants often don’t appreciate the role of suffering, as taught by Christ & Paul.

Oh, I think the spiritual man educated in the Scriptures very well understands. But what a spiritual man won’t do is self-inflict it just for the sake of suffering.

I used to see it as a weakness, as evidence one lacked faith or wasn’t blessed by God.

Why? That makes no sense.

We believed Christ suffered … so we wouldn’t have to.

He suffered on the cross and died in our stead so that we who believe won’t suffer Hell: eternal separation from God; so that we who believe will not come into judgment but pass out of death into LIFE (Jn. 3:18; 5:24).

We overlooked the teaching of Christ that he came to suffer & serve man … and we must do likewise.

But not for salvation. And not everyone is necessarily called to physically suffer for the sake of the gospel. Although in this life, Jesus says, it’s inevitable that we’ll experience tribulations; nevertheless, we read His comforting words:John 16:33 “These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me (not the world) you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”.

Catholics have a much different perspective on suffering. They share Paul’s viewpoint on necessity of it … to promote spiritual growth.

One can certainly grow spiritually through suffering but only if he learns by it not to depend on self but on God who redeemed him. That was Paul’s lesson. If you think you’re saved by it, or you might secure salvation and acceptance through it, your suffering will be in vain.

Christ and his Apostles taught that we only grow in spritual understandings through trials & hardships.

That’s not the only way. His blessings and kindness toward us play a great role in growing spiritually as well.

When our lives are going smoothly … we are not being pruned by God, and not bearing fruit.

That’s not true.

It is impossible [from the Catholic understanding of scripture] to abide in Christ … w/o being confronted with constant hardships and trials.

Actually, a spiritually mature man desires to abide in Christ at all times. He desires to bear fruit during the good times as well as the bad. If you need “constant” pruning it’s an indication that there’s something spiritually wrong.

Once you come to appreciate the Pauline teaching regarding suffering, and the Johnnine teaching on abiding in Christ … you will grow in your admiration of the role of Catholic Church and her Vatican leaders.

Which of your leaders in the Vatican are presently suffering as Paul did? I’ve read church history and it was those in leadership that often inflicted suffering on others. I don’t read in the Book of Acts or the Epistles where any of the Apostles ever inflicted pain and suffering on others, persecuted anyone, or instructed church leadership to do so. We’re only told by them to endure if persecuted.

 

[SHW]

Nothing’s changed since Abraham. In fact, that’s why he’s called the father of all who believe.

Gal 3:6-8 "Even so Abraham believed God, and IT was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure (fully recognize, comprehend) that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, {saying,} "All the nations will be blessed in you."

James 2:21-22 “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?”

Both faith and works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life after Jesus redeems and justifies us through our Baptisms. We must do the will of the Father in heaven in order to inherit eternal life. If we only believe that Jesus will save us but do not also do good works, then we are called “lukewarm,” and Jesus will vomit us out of His mouth. I can guarantee you that “vomitus” does not inherit eternal life.

Revelation 3:15-18 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.”

Matthew 7:19-24 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ 24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:”

Hearers must also become doers in order to inherit eternal life.

James 1:21-25 “Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.”

Pax,
SHW

 

[SHW]

Not according to Jesus:John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,"Dead? :dts:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life”.Dead? :dts:

Like we have told you over and over again: First Jesus justifies us. Then we must continue to be justified. We believe these Scripture verses but we also believe all the other ones, too, which pertain to the necessity of our continuing our justification by perfecting our faith so that we are not condemned as “lukewarm” and vomited out of Jesus’ mouth on Judgment Day. We are judged by our works on Judgment Day. I see no Scriptures claiming that we are judged by our faith alone on Judgment Day. (2 Thessalonians 1:8, Romans 2:8, Acts 5:32)

Hebrews 5:9 “And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,”

“Believes in me” and “believes Him” consists of “faith in action” as in “faith working through love.” “Be a doer of the Word and not a hearer only.”

Hebrews 3:12 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;”

A person “departs from the living God” by sinning. Sin is unbelief. Sin is lawlessness. Those who practice/do lawlessness/sin do not inherit eternal life. Jesus says so! :getholy:

Hebrews 3:18-19 “And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.”

Obedience equals belief. Disobedience equals unbelief.

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

1 Corinthians 15:33-34 “Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.” 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.”

Romans 6:16 “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?”

It seems to me that you desire to continue to be deceived by the “Eternal Security” doctrine. First Jesus justifies us, then we must continue in this justification in order to inherit eternal life when we die.

Revelation 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Guess what? When a person is tested, but he does not remain faithful until death, then he definitely does not inherit the crown of life!

Pax,
SHW

 

[ryanoneil]

I addressed “faith working through love” in a previous post:"In context Paul is saying that it’s through FAITH alone that God justifies (which is what the Book of Galatians all about). But it (justification) manifests itself in love, and all good works. However, it’s faith alone through which God justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) ,not the love nor the good works which may follow. We don’t reject works; God forbid, we commend them and teach them in the highest degree. It’s not on their own account that we condemn works, but on the perverse notion of seeking justification, or maintaining justification, by them."James, when understood in context, essentially says the same thing.

But Paul doesn’t say faith alone. Paul emphasizes that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace. The works performed under God’s grace lead to justification and eternal life.

**eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works (Rom 2:7)

But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek (Rom 2:10)

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)**

Bear one another’s burdens, and so you will fulfill the law of Christ. (Gal 6:2)

The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

 

[BRB1]

No! and No! Nor did he believe in Him. He was instrumental in His death.

Christ Himself called him “a devil” and “the son of perdition.”

If Judas is your example of loving Christ and abiding in Him, then sir, you’ve got a real spiritual problem that needs to be addressed immediately.

MD …

Look at what you said above ! Look back at my questions to you. How could you possibly think I expected affirmative answers to my questions. Perhaps you are looking at the issue from your OSAS perspective … and can’t accept that Judas once held sincere faith/belief in Christ, which he later forfeited by act of his free will.

You must consider our posts in their full context. You frequently pull out a single sentence from ones post … to make invalid points … when the very next sentences provide you with the fuller context.

Now … as for Judas. You know I too once held your opinion on him. However, Peter has definitively answered this for us in Acts.

Acts 1:17-20 For he was NUMBERED AMONG US, and was ALLOTED HIS SHARE in this ministry. … Let HIS OFFICE another take.
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas TURNED ASIDE, to go to his own place.

A ‘turncoat’ … Peter has said so clearly. Peter was a firsthand witness to events, and the chief of Apostles. I accept sacred scripture on matter … not our earlier ‘opinion’ to the contrary.

Don’t worry about the OSAS dilemma this presents for you. Do you want to be correct … or stubborn ?

 

[BRB1]

Which of your leaders in the Vatican are presently suffering as Paul did? I’ve read church history and it was those in leadership that often inflicted suffering on others. I don’t read in the Book of Acts or the Epistles where any of the Apostles ever inflicted pain and suffering on others, persecuted anyone, or instructed church leadership to do so. We’re only told by them to endure if persecuted.

Are your talking physical or spiritual suffering … Which type is more onerous ?

What history are you reading that disturbs you about the current Vatican leaders? In fairness, Catholics do acknowledge there have been a few errant popes … but, only with regards to their OWN personal imperfections. Christ never allowed their personal sins to stain his church with regards to the Church’s Faith & Morals.

 

[moondweller]

But Paul doesn’t say faith alone. Paul emphasizes that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace. The works performed under God’s grace lead to justification and eternal life.

Read it carefully for understanding.Rom 4:5 "But to the one who does not work,

but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly,

his faith, his faith, his faith, his faith

is credited as righteousness,"Not his work but his faith. Paul references Gen. 15:6 which says the same thing.

The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Titus 3:5 "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,Do you think Paul and his companions were negligent in their ministry when the Philippian jailer asked *“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?,”*Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved,”

 

[ryanoneil]

Not really, it’s those who believe the message of salvation that are to be, subsequently, water baptized. According to Biblical revelation only those who have believed are to be water baptized.

It is true of adult, but not infants.

 

[moondweller]

Now … as for Judas. You know I too once held your opinion on him. However, Peter has definitively answered this for us in Acts.

Acts 1:17-20 For he was NUMBERED AMONG US, and was ALLOTED HIS SHARE in this ministry. … Let HIS OFFICE another take.
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas TURNED ASIDE, to go to his own place.

It’s true he was “numbered” among them but he was NEVER “of” them. Even I am presently numbered among all who live in the world, but as a born again believer whose citizenship is in heaven, I am not considered “of” the world (Jn. 17:14-16).

Don’t worry about the OSAS dilemma this presents for you. Do you want to be correct … or stubborn ?

As you can see it presents no dilemma. Though numbered “among” them he was never “of” them. If you believe “a devil” and “the son of perdition” who was “a thief” that constantly pilfered from the money given to Jesus for His ministry, and sold Him over to His enemies for 30 pieces of sliver, then its you with the spiritual dilemma.

 

[moondweller]

It is true of adult, but not infants.

Can you show in Scripture where it says an infant was actually baptized? Certainly it says “household,” but “household” does not necessitate infants. Also it says the person believed along with his whole household. Hence, only those who personally believe are to be baptized. That would exclude infants.

 

[moondweller]

Are your talking physical or spiritual suffering … Which type is more onerous?

Both. But neither save.

What history are you reading that disturbs you about the current Vatican leaders?

Pertaining to your present Vatican leaders I asked which of them are presently suffering as did Paul for Christ’s name sake? You said once I come to appreciate the Pauline teaching regarding suffering, and the Johnnine teaching on abiding in Christ … I would grow in admiration of the role of the Catholic Church and her Vatican leaders. I assumed you mean I would come to understand how much your leaders over in the Vatican are presently suffering for Christ’s sake. How so?

In fairness, Catholics do acknowledge there have been a few errant popes … but, only with regards to their OWN personal imperfections. Christ never allowed their personal sins to stain his church with regards to the Church’s Faith & Morals.

His true church is washed by His blood. Any persecution of others now or in the history of the church by those who claim to be Christians is pure hypocrisy - whether Catholic or Protestant.

 

[BRB1]

It’s true he was “numbered” among them but he was NEVER “of” them.

MD …

Numbered means ‘counted as’. Judas was clearly a legit disciple, and even moreso … he held the highest calling of Apostleship. None of the Apostles had a clue that Judas was gonna become an Apostate. It was only after the fact that they finally understood his fatal flaws.

Again I ask … are you gonna continue with your ‘opinion’ … or accept what Sacred Scripture tells us ?