What does it mean to be a man?

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Why do we keep going back to education as some type of measure of a man or woman? Education like many other things in life are just tools we have to do the one thing God made us to do.

That one thing that is the basis of all our lives; it should be the reason for all of our actions because before original sin God made us to enjoy life with it and in the same action know Him thought it and praise Him with it.

LOVE is why God made us. Love is why we are here. Love is all that we are supposed to be doing. What good is it if we have the world but have not Love, it is worthless. So why do we keep waving our credentials around like it is worth something (like a grade) or telling us something (we are supposedly mature), when it is merely a tool.

The true essence of our humanity of being made male and female is the fulfillment of LOVE. What that basically means is that we don’t become real men or women until we have fulfilled what the creator made us to do in the fullness He created us to do it in (yes that means striving). What that means and as JP2 stated is we only find ourselves by making a complete gift of self.

Is that not interesting that he stated “find our selves”. What would he be trying to tell us? Find ourselves? Did we loose something? Are we missing something?

“Equal but different”
“Complimentary”

As a man that part of Love that I have and my heart wants to do is fulfill, to give. I can’t explain to women that incredible drive I have to want to give of myself to the point of building castles, or breakdown walls, or do the hard work, or the fight no one seems to know is going on. By listing to my heart and the female entities around me I am given tasks to fulfill. My joyful heart is only too eager to fulfill. The only example I can give women is this. You know of men’s raging sex drive, I can truthfully tell you my desire to give of myself is the same as that sex drive, they are directly related. It is something I don’t push myself to do, it comes naturally.

In marriage when a good man commits himself to a woman what is happening? He pledges his life, everything he owns, and everything he will become to her. In essence his whole life is now a service to her by the way of God’s Love. If she holds it against him and says I don’t need you for certain things, then the man’s sacrifice is incomplete. He can’t give himself fully like a true man will find he wants to give himself too. The audacity of the rejection of that full gift is saying “I will not give you everything” (Contraception). It says I will take your 100% and give you 70% (or visa versa).

Love is everything, there is no holding back. There is not one aspect in life that is not dependant on it. GOD IS LOVE (1jh4). He can be in every action of our lives if we allow Him to be. I really don’t know how anything can even approach the greatness and the splendor of God being apart of our whole being! But NOOO I somehow know better, I don’t need men to provide for me, or I don’t need to listen to a woman’s advice, or I don’t have to embrace who God made me to be.

What about Mary? Do we reject Mary because she does not live up to the essence of feminism? Was there any reservation in her fiat? If she is perfect, what are you? Who are you using for a guide? Are they perfect?

The lines are heavly blured. They go to the extremes of “switching sides”. The reason we have to die and be reborn to truly live is to start from sratch so Jesus and Mary can be our guides.

The sign of maturity is knowing and embracing we are just half of the equation.
Age, or grade, or pay, or material things are not. (Those things are from this society).

Sorry for the rant, just tired of people so full of themselves (because everyone else is) that they can’t see all the pain they are causing.

God Bless and I pray he opens your hearts.
John Anthony.
 
No, we don’t reject Mary. We believe she fulfilled the role God called her to, not man (for certainly she was at risk for being stoned for adultery).

But, as someone who has always been a leader and a good one, as someone who gives and receives love, as someone who does not see a calling to either marriage or religious life, I think it’s unfair to prescribe a role to me because I am a woman.

I don’t deny that I will end up mothering someone, but it would be more a spiritual, not physical, motherhood.

Also, it’s a lie to say that women don’t have raging sex drives or that we are somehow “better” at keeping that under control. As a twenty-year-old woman, chastity does not come easy to me. I am also visual when it comes to attraction, as visual as any man. It’s not about “emotions” or sensuality or whatever as people say it is for women. But I stay chaste and learn to guard my own eyes, because that’s what God calls me to do.

I don’t think it’s about men and women being less than each other, it’s just that people need to focus on what God wants for them in their OWN lives and not about fulfilling anyone else’s definition of what makes a real man or real woman. Last I checked, my abilities in math and science, my leadership abilities, my struggles with chastity, etc do not make me manly. They make me an analytical woman who isn’t afraid to take control when necessary and who struggles with the same things everyone else does because she is human.
 
This doesn’t further the discussion, but I like what Sanuel Johnson said the the Eighteenth Century. When a woman asked him what the difference is between a man and a woman, he said, “I can’t conceive, can you?”
 
John;

I understand your post. I am a bit confused about the part about a sacrifice being less than or something, if a woman doesn’t accept the sacrifice the man is trying to make. Many people have rejected Christ–His sacrifice nonetheless is perfect and complete. Our acceptance doesn’t make Christ’s sacrifice on the cross, for example, more than or less than. He died for all of us.

When I sacrifice for my dh, or he sacrifices in our marriage for me, it’s a sacrifice without conditions. I am not sure if you are speaking of something else entirely, so thought I’d ask the question? I’m referring to this from your above post:

*In marriage when a good man commits himself to a woman what is happening? He pledges his life, everything he owns, and everything he will become to her. In essence his whole life is now a service to her by the way of God’s Love. If she holds it against him and says I don’t need you for certain things, **then the man’s sacrifice is incomplete. ***He can’t give himself fully like a true man will find he wants to give himself too. The audacity of the rejection of that full gift is saying “I will not give you everything” (Contraception). It says I will take your 100% and give you 70% (or visa versa).
 
Whatevergirl,
The not a full sacrifice idea comes from the “transmission of Love”. We can see it plainly in our sexualities in contraception. The same can happen in gifts of self. For instance a man can give woman $100 dollars as a gift (seed, needs). A woman can contracept that gift by saying oh he is rich and it means nothing to little to him, in other words downplaying or rejecting the sacrifice\gift (contraception).

I equate all love as sacrifice, for to give 100 hundred dollars, he is out of 100 dollars. I realize that after receiving the sprit we are more than happy to give it and thus not much a sacrifice, but secularly speaking we are still giving up something.
Also a true gift is given freely with no reservation or expectance of a return.

So if a man’s natural inclination is to give of himself and he is not allowed to because a woman does let him provide, protect, and lead she is denying him the possibility of full gift of self.

Love is supposed to be eternal. Which means fully and consistently, forever.

Yes we all lack, we are all sinners, and probably can never reach that pinnacle Heaven on earth, but it is something to strive for.

Sanctamaria,
Humans are adaptable we become who need to become. There have been tons of studies that show men and women think differently. They just do. There is no way for me to explain how much a drive is or hard or difficult it is for me to do something because you don’t process things the same way (apples to oranges). For instance it has been shown women are better in Algebra then men (they grasp it faster and can do it faster). That does not negate the fact that it was men who invented algebra. It has also been shown that men are naturally better thinking 3 dimensionally. So we can 3 dimentionalize things in our head easier but in the same respect you probably can to but it will be under much more effort. We adapt, we can change our natural tendencies. I just think natural tendencies or attributes is the way to go because it follows what are bodies are telling us. It is the way to we know Love, know God.

God Bless,
John
 
Except men had more access to education which is how they could invent algebra and other things. Women did not. Plain and simple. It’s kind of hard to when society for the most part keeps you illiterate and powerless. Yet, they’ve also done studies that show that women typically do well in fields such as engineering and others but that sexism keeps them from advancing to higher fields. I have read such studies, since a professor of mine has conducted one such study.

And I guess for me, I have natural tendencies towards math, science and analytical thinking. I’ve been tested since I was a child. I also have been told that I have a natural ability to lead, and have been told that since my nursery school years. Not to mention that for me, it does feel natural to take the lead.

I don’t know. I guess in environments where men don’t feel so threatened by everything women can do, women really can do every thing that men do, aside from fathering a child or becoming a priest. Likewise, in the right circumstances, a man can do anything except mother a child.

Maybe men are traditionally better at some things and women at other things. Maybe I also don’t go with tradition and tend to be better at the things men are typically better at. That’s OK. I’m not looking to be the perfect woman or wife (heh, I’ll probably never be a wife anyway, with the way my life is going). I’m looking to be who God made me to be, which may not include either of the two.
 
sanctamaria17 said:
Except men had more access to education which is how they could invent algebra and other things. Women did not. Plain and simple. It’s kind of hard to when society for the most part keeps you illiterate and powerless. Yet, they’ve also done studies that show that women typically do well in fields such as engineering and others but that sexism keeps them from advancing to higher fields. I have read such studies, since a professor of mine has conducted one such study.

And I guess for me, I have natural tendencies towards math, science and analytical thinking. I’ve been tested since I was a child. I also have been told that I have a natural ability to lead, and have been told that since my nursery school years. Not to mention that for me, it does feel natural to take the lead.

I don’t know. I guess in environments where men don’t feel so threatened by everything women can do, women really can do every thing that men do, aside from fathering a child or becoming a priest. Likewise, in the right circumstances, a man can do anything except mother a child.

Maybe men are traditionally better at some things and women at other things. Maybe I also don’t go with tradition and tend to be better at the things men are typically better at. That’s OK. I’m not looking to be the perfect woman or wife (heh, I’ll probably never be a wife anyway, with the way my life is going). I’m looking to be who God made me to be, which may not include either of the two.
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You know maria, when I read your posts, you seem very at peace to me, and that you truly love the Lord, and want to follow where He leads you. How could anyone ever debate that? I believe we are to follow God’s will for us–and that is authentic living–for either gender. (I have also found it interesting how threatened many men have been by women’s potential advancement over the centuries. 🤷 )
 
oh what a great question. I think being a man is whatever the man defines it has. He should not have the responsibility of providing or being muscular if he feels that is not his nature. Just like a woman does not always have to cook and clean. Society today is so set in making rules for each gender its sickening. I’m giong a bit feminist here but i think it applies. Why does a woman always have to care for the children, cook, clean and go shopping for the family? Its as much mans work as it is womans work. People who are set in their ways about men providing, doing this and doing that are old school. This is the 2000s and men no longer rule the world, women are getting their fair share of power as well.

Also a man should not be pressured into being society’s “Man” just as a woman should not feel obligated to be society’s “Woman”. If every man was built, went to work a 9-5 job, came home and demanded his wife make him dinner, and if every woman was a Barbie housewife, well that would be a pretty boring world. It would be like the 1950s all over again with a nice little picket fence around the yard. Well sometimes thing have to get shaken up a bit, and i say its about time another Elvis revoultion sweep society off its feet and throw the world into total chaos again. 😃
 
biandblessed said:
oh what a great question. I think being a man is whatever the man defines it has. He should not have the responsibility of providing or being muscular if he feels that is not his nature. Just like a woman does not always have to cook and clean. Society today is so set in making rules for each gender its sickening. I’m giong a bit feminist here but i think it applies. Why does a woman always have to care for the children, cook, clean and go shopping for the family? Its as much mans work as it is womans work. People who are set in their ways about men providing, doing this and doing that are old school. This is the 2000s and men no longer rule the world, women are getting their fair share of power as well.

Also a man should not be pressured into being society’s “Man” just as a woman should not feel obligated to be society’s “Woman”. If every man was built, went to work a 9-5 job, came home and demanded his wife make him dinner, and if every woman was a Barbie housewife, well that would be a pretty boring world. It would be like the 1950s all over again with a nice little picket fence around the yard. Well sometimes thing have to get shaken up a bit, and i say its about time another Elvis revoultion sweep society off its feet and throw the world into total chaos again. 😃
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I’d be wary of anyone who wants to rule the world. We aren’t there to rule the world, we are to serve our family and our neighbors. I wouldn’t say so much we can define for ourselves what it means to be a man, nor should we look to society. One can look at the saints, each one is unique but each one has many commonalities.
 
I’m thankful that I’m married to a man who doesn’t feel the need to put me and my abilities into a particular cookie cutter type box. He embraces me as a person, and while he is very much a traditional man in many ways, he has only supported me in whatever I wanted to pursue, and is my best friend. I do the same for him. He is very much a strong man, and in being a strong man, he doesn’t feel the need to tell me what to do…or what I ‘should’ be doing, as a woman. I don’t know what I would do if I had married someone who wanted to fit me into what he thought a woman’s role should be…and didn’t appreciate me for me. To me, being a man, means you don’t feel threatened by your wife’s accomplishments…whatever they may be. 😉
 
Exactly! Everyone tells me to start dating, that I’ll need to “settle down” soon if I want kids. I’m like, seriously? I mean, my twentieth is in a few months and I just started holding down a job! I’m just halfway done with school! And I believe dating someone with no intention of marriage is a big waste of mine and the other person’s time.

And seriously, if a man truly loves and respects me, he’d help me achieve my dreams and I would help him achieve his. We’d love each other as people, not try to mold each other into ideals.

Last I checked, it wasn’t my XX chromosomes that made me a good cook. Everyone knows it’s really my Spanish/Italian blood;) 😉 Or maybe I’ve just had to cook for myself and I like to cook:)
 
jman507 said:
I’d be wary of anyone who wants to rule the world. We aren’t there to rule the world, we are to serve our family and our neighbors. I wouldn’t say so much we can define for ourselves what it means to be a man, nor should we look to society. One can look at the saints, each one is unique but each one has many commonalities.
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I think biandblessed was talking about in the past when women didn’t even have political power to vote when she mentioned men “ruling the world”. Preventing women from holding political and economic power is hardly serving neighbors and family. But I know that’s not what you meant, I was just clarifying:)

I am glad that as a woman, I can vote, go for higher education, and work for my own money. But I also know that it’s my duty to submit to the Almighty and that my will must align with His. So I go with that and I try to serve Him in school, at my job, with friends and family, at Mass, etc. At the same time, He gave me brains, free will, and opportunities for a reason, so it’s my duty to use them to serve His glory.
 
sanctamaria17 said:
I think biandblessed was talking about in the past when women didn’t even have political power to vote when she mentioned men “ruling the world”. Preventing women from holding political and economic power is hardly serving neighbors and family. But I know that’s not what you meant, I was just clarifying:)

I am glad that as a woman, I can vote, go for higher education, and work for my own money. But I also know that it’s my duty to submit to the Almighty and that my will must align with His. So I go with that and I try to serve Him in school, at my job, with friends and family, at Mass, etc. At the same time, He gave me brains, free will, and opportunities for a reason, so it’s my duty to use them to serve His glory.
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I’d just want to emphasize that secular power isn’t the be all end all. There are plenty of men out there who’ve betrayed their family and those of whom they have fiduciary responsibility over for the sake of power. In that women want an equal chance to do that, I say careful.

That you can vote, go for higher education, and work for your own money is fine in all, but it is just a tool. To the one that has great talents, they can be a blessing or a curse. I could make an argument that since we have accepted men and women as bread winners, we have given up more of our freedom to the system. In so much as we have more people who are able to vote, we have yielded more and more power over our lives to the government. If we are doing such a great job at being a men and women, how come we have so many divorces and single parent households?

I am not saying that as a condemnation of feminism, I’m saying that from a strictly strategic point of view. You can go out and fight for certain objectives. Just because you think certain issues are important, doesn’t mean there are other fundamental anchors of support of which you are unaware of their importance, that with neglect can crumble and ruin your whole foundations. As in war as in business, if you over expand, without proper supports, eventually the whole operation will be plagued with problems. In so much as the feminist movement made good gains and created new opportunity, it also opened up new potential problems.

As much as I enjoy politics, it’s child’s play compared to the work done in the home. You can make all kinds of exotic diplomatic moves and such, but if you don’t have your families building up suitable workers and citizens, and living within their means, eventually it’ll be a house of cards that will all fall down. So it’s great algebra was made, of course, it was could only happen when there when the crops and animals were plentiful enough to allow people to focus on it.

It’s great to be able to climb a ladder to get to success, but just because you can climb a ladder does not mean you will choose the right place to climb. I would be careful of where society says to go, although it deserves some consideration. I would be careful of where I am tempted to go. I can fool myself. And just because I have new opportunities to go to other places, that also means I have new opportunities to go to more wrong places too. It behooves me to take my time to properly discern, where I should go, how I should climb the ladder, why I should even climb the ladder, and what exactly success is.

To bottom line it. I think you have a fine outlook, but beware of you can be unaware of your vulnerabilities. Power isn’t always has it appears, actually everyone has their own power, in a weaker position you just need to know how to leverage it. Even the barbie doll housewife has a lot power.
 
How do you know I don’t do that? How do you that I don’t pray? How do you know that I don’t examine life? And how do you know that all I want is power?

I believe that the problem lies in the fact that many don’t follow God, that we are fallen. I believe that people have lost the true meaning of marriage and enter it with a lack of maturity, ie. “We ‘love’ each other”, “She’s pregnant”, “It’s the right thing to do”, “My clock is ticking”. Many don’t enter it prayerfully. Many don’t pray about their vocations. Many don’t pray or think period. I don’t believe it’s because people have taken control over their own lives or that women have opportunities.

I believe it’s a sin to waste my talents. God gave them to me. I use them to help others. I use my leadership to organize Catholic events on my secular campus and to stand up for what I believe in (like my consistent pro-life views) no matter the cost. I use my skills to learn how to deal with the world, so that I can help bring others to God. And with my heart, I listen to Him and see where He wants me to go. I use my secular power to stand up for those who don’t have power. And I see nothing unwomanly or un-Christian about it. But I couldn’t have done that if I couldn’t go to school, get a job, hold leadership or vote.

And if men feel threatened, maybe they need to listen to God more and stop worrying about how to be the perfect man.
 
Sorry I kept it here because it directly pertains to the argument at hand but we can start another thread where the actual or nonactual difference between sexes exists.
 
sanctamaria17 said:
How do you know I don’t do that? How do you that I don’t pray? How do you know that I don’t examine life? And how do you know that all I want is power?

I believe that the problem lies in the fact that many don’t follow God, that we are fallen. I believe that people have lost the true meaning of marriage and enter it with a lack of maturity, ie. “We ‘love’ each other”, “She’s pregnant”, “It’s the right thing to do”, “My clock is ticking”. Many don’t enter it prayerfully. Many don’t pray about their vocations. Many don’t pray or think period. I don’t believe it’s because people have taken control over their own lives or that women have opportunities.

I believe it’s a sin to waste my talents. God gave them to me. I use them to help others. I use my leadership to organize Catholic events on my secular campus and to stand up for what I believe in (like my consistent pro-life views) no matter the cost. I use my skills to learn how to deal with the world, so that I can help bring others to God. And with my heart, I listen to Him and see where He wants me to go. I use my secular power to stand up for those who don’t have power. And I see nothing unwomanly or un-Christian about it. But I couldn’t have done that if I couldn’t go to school, get a job, hold leadership or vote.

And if men feel threatened, maybe they need to listen to God more and stop worrying about how to be the perfect man.
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How do I know that you don’t do that? I don’t; I don’t; I don’t; I don’t, nor for that matter it doesn’t matter too me, though I hope you do; you do; you do; you do. To tell you to be careful, is no repudiation of you. I am not here to tell you, you are being unwomanly, nor unChristain; that is your own walk. I know for one I can only observe things from my perspective. I know that appearances may or may not reliably tell one the truth. I’m not going to sit here, and make claims about you from inferences. If I tell you to be careful, there are things you are unaware, and reevalute your objectives and intentions from time to time; I’m not accusing you of not doing that, that is just good advice in general.

You tell me marriages are not going well, because we have lost the true meaning of marriage, and have lost our maturity. I agree. I say what good is power, if you lack maturity? If you have families failing to raise up children well, and live within their means, your vote isn’t going to really do much to change those fundamental problems.

If you ask me, regardless of if you could vote, go to school, or have a job, you would still hold leadership. If you want call me Forrest Gump’s mother, I as far as I’m concerned “stupid is as stupid does.” Even if Forrest more or less took the official position as someone stupid, he often times was rather profound, and the intelligent ones were actually stupid. While I don’t know you to say for sure, I’m would think you’d take a leadership position, even if you didn’t have a formal title.

As far as, “and if men feel threatened, maybe they need to listen to God more and stop worrying about how to be the perfect man.” I would say, they shouldn’t stop worrying about being the perfect man, but we should be looking to God to guide us on how to be a perfect man or woman. Sure we will fall short of the ideal, but it is the ideal to strive for. We ought to, try to reflect on and understand the cardinal virtures, the theological virtues, and the seven deadly sins.
 
In my opinion a true man is someone who is bold and yes aggressive as long as what he is doing is moral/ethical. An example would be someone like my father who travels around the world doing high level business deals. He literally goes to some of the worse places on earth like China for instance but he gets the job done and makes alot of money. I am following in footsteps however I will do all of it for myself.

I object to masculinity being tied to the “family life”. I honestly see the “hermit” as a better example of the ideal man Christ in the desert vrs Satan. A man in control of his passions is a true man. I also think a man who overcomes the temptation particularly by a woman is a great example of a true man.

Intellectualism is also important too real men talk about philosophy, history and theology, not base things. Heh that is my life’s goal make enough money so I can follow other nobler pursuits like philosophy.
 
Vladi said:
In my opinion a true man is someone who is bold and yes aggressive as long as what he is doing is moral/ethical. An example would be someone like my father who travels around the world doing high level business deals. He literally goes to some of the worse places on earth like China for instance but he gets the job done and makes alot of money. I am following in footsteps however I will do all of it for myself.

I object to masculinity being tied to the “family life”. I honestly see the “hermit” as a better example of the ideal man Christ in the desert vrs Satan. A man in control of his passions is a true man. I also think a man who overcomes the temptation particularly by a woman is a great example of a true man.

Intellectualism is also important too real men talk about philosophy, history and theology, not base things. Heh that is my life’s goal make enough money so I can follow other nobler pursuits like philosophy.
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I’ll say that there is a place for the sales man, and the philosopher. To me, I’d rather women get in the mix too. We ought to take from the east and the west; likewise, I think we ought to take from the male and female. I’ve learned plenty from the female doctors of the Church.

I say pick your vocation and do it well. Families need their mothers and fathers. If you don’t want to dedicate the time to do it well, you may need to reflect on if you ought to get into the family business. As much as we need people to sale products, if your product is shoddy, what good is it that you are doing? The base is important, without a proper foundation anything “noble” is going to be mispositioned.
 
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