What does it mean to be "saved"? Catholic vs. Protestant

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Your entire premise. There is a logical disconnect.
IOW, you’re really not interested in what I say, right?
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Lochias:
But you aren’t grasping the idea of what “merit” means in this context.
Oh yes I am.
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Lochias:
God grants his merit to us out of love for our works in faith, not because we have earned them in any way, shape or form. He gives us the graces we need through our faithful works because He wants us to have it, not because we deserve it.
Trent says your works merit grace which merits eternal life. I don’t need to fool with the words to come up with something other than what Trent says, like you’re doing. I take Trent at face value.
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Lochias:
Indeed. A Christian document that was ratified and selected, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by the first Christians, or Catholics, that edified and supported the beliefs of the Church which Jesus founded long before there was ever a book at all.

👍
Good, we still agree: the bible is a Christian document. 👍
 
Are you saying that God is unable to give grace when He deems it suitable or good? Are you saying that the Bible tells us that He’s unable to do so?
Your works do save you, correct? Through them you obtain eternal life.
 
More or less, yes. Church authorities have long understood the different kinds of merit there are, dependent on context. There are names for the different kinds, that escape me at the moment (and I’ve no time to Google-fu).
I believe strict, and condign.
 
"This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church’s teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.

All who claim the title “Christian” will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.

If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word “faith,” we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.

The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber.

Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).

Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses.

Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.

Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was “declared righteous” before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by “believing” faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith “working in love” (Galatians 5:6). Isn’t this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by “works of law” (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He’s condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn’t justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham’s life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God’s providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he’s “declared righteous” (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.

The Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation. It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).

The reformer’s position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years."

from ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm
 
The apostle Paul NOWHERE says it is guaranteed that a person who is saved is saved forever!

That’s why he says “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

If you don’t WORK out your salvation with fear and trembling YOU ARE SINNING!

If you sin that way unrepentedly until death and die in that state of mortal sin you will go to Hell!
Hey Jerry: Paul is writing to saved people “saints in Christ Jesus” - Phil. 1:1]. Why would he tell them to “work out” something they already have? They are to work out that which is already there. Further, Paul writes to Timothy that “The Lord will deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom…” 2 Tim. 4:18. He also writes that he is, “… persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.” [2 Tim. 1:12]. That seems to be pretty solid.
QC
 
Hey Jerry: Paul is writing to saved people “saints in Christ Jesus” - Phil. 1:1]. Why would he tell them to “work out” something they already have? They are to work out that which is already there. Further, Paul writes to Timothy that “The Lord will deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom…” 2 Tim. 4:18. He also writes that he is, “… persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed to Him against that day.” [2 Tim. 1:12]. That seems to be pretty solid.
QC
That’s correct, QC. Paul instructs them to work out “your” salvation.

“Your” is a possessive pronoun indicating the believer’s salvation is his possession.

Paul also states in Philippians that “our,” citizenship is in heaven (Php 3:20). It’s pretty clear.
 
IOW, you’re really not interested in what I say, right?
Do you need a bungee cable when you leap to conclusions like that?
Oh yes I am.
No, you’re not. Deliberate obtuseness does not become you, sir, not at all.
Trent says your works merit grace which merits eternal life. I don’t need to fool with the words to come up with something other than what Trent says, like you’re doing. I take Trent at face value.
Trent assumes that one knows the basic premise. I don’t have to fool around with the vast majority of the Bible to try and support my premises, so I guess that makes us even.
Good, we still agree: the bible is a Christian document. 👍
👍 Yup, a Catholic Christian document.
 
I have long since become wearied with Bible versus cherry-picked out of context. Please base your arguments in the context of complete history and logic or else I will have to dismiss your words out-of-hand as old and tired, repeated to ineffectual oblivion by many others before you.
What? Which tribe do you belong to Lochias? Are you still meeting in the Synagogue? Those Jews to whom James writes were. Don’t mind you dismissing my words, but you dismiss the Word of God when you fail to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Tsk, tsk.
Karl Keating told me, years ago, that: “Catholics don’t know anything about rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” You just confirmed what he told me. Peter Kreeft told me that: “Many Catholics don’t know the gospel.” What’s going on?
QC
 
What? Which tribe do you belong to Lochias? Are you still meeting in the Synagogue? Those Jews to whom James writes were. Don’t mind you dismissing my words, but you dismiss the Word of God when you fail to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Tsk, tsk.
Karl Keating told me, years ago, that: “Catholics don’t know anything about rightly dividing the Word of Truth.” You just confirmed what he told me. Peter Kreeft told me that: “Many Catholics don’t know the gospel.” What’s going on?
QC
:rolleyes: Well, We’re People of the Word, not People of A Book. There’s a huge difference. Karl Keating and Peter Kreeft are welcome to say what they’d like to say. Makes no difference to me.
 
Here.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/RIGHTEOU.HTM

Pay close attention to the part on ontological righteousness…I think it’ll clear up a lot of the misconception you’re presenting about the RCC’s position on such things. It moves on to the various merits and their descriptions otherwise.
Typical Akin.

Nobody understands the Catholic term “merit” like Catholics understand it, except for the Catholic reformers, they didn’t understand the Catholic term merit at all. :rolleyes:
 
Typical Akin.

Nobody understands the Catholic term “merit” like Catholics understand it, except for the Catholic reformers, they didn’t understand the Catholic term merit at all. :rolleyes:
Apparently they didn’t. 🤷 Or chose not to. At any rate, whether or not you agree, you are now equipped to cease misrepresenting the RCC on its views on faith and works, 'cause anything less would be a guilty, guilty lie.

👍 Peachy keen.
 
I am not a theologian but the bible does says by faith alone.

However, it’s not how we think about it or how most of us think just belive in Jesus and we saved.

We must ask questions what does it mean to have faith?

Short answer:

If we have faith we belive in God.

If we belive in GOD we must follow his commandments.

If we follow God’s commandments then you have good works.

It’s all related.

A tree must bear a fruit or it is no good!
 
None that I know of; perhaps his suffering on the cross and his eventual belief and proclamation that Jesus was in fact who He said He was, was enough. Suffering on the cross is more work than I would want to do. :eek:By the way, those are not my words; they are the words of James (sacred scripture which is the protestants final authority). Are we not to adhere to what James has to say on the matter? :confused:
But he didn’t suffer for his faith, for his crimes. How does this glorify God? James never says we are saved by works, but that faith working in us compels us to good works. God doesn’t just know the sins we have committed, but all the sins we will commit in the future; and He forgives us anyway. Our works don’t impress God, he knows our hearts, both the good and bad. We sin every day and God’s willingness to keep forgiving us is testimony to the depths of His love. If we are sinful creatures what do we do good works for, to make up for the sins we commit? We can never do enough. Our efforts are the result of the Holy Spirit within us. If they are the result of the Spirit how can we take credit for that? The fruits of the Spirit demonstrate God’s love to the world and should make men glorify God.
 
But he didn’t suffer for his faith, for his crimes. How does this glorify God? James never says we are saved by works, but that faith working in us compels us to good works. God doesn’t just know the sins we have committed, but all the sins we will commit in the future; and He forgives us anyway. Our works don’t impress God, he knows our hearts, both the good and bad. We sin every day and God’s willingness to keep forgiving us is testimony to the depths of His love. If we are sinful creatures what do we do good works for, to make up for the sins we commit? We can never do enough. Our efforts are the result of the Holy Spirit within us. If they are the result of the Spirit how can we take credit for that? The fruits of the Spirit demonstrate God’s love to the world and should make men glorify God.
But doing good things leaves us more predisposed to do good, just as doing bad things leaves us more predisposed to do bad. God owes us nothing, but I happen to think it is very generous of Him that, in His love, He gives us graces to keep being good when we do our good works. Without God’s resultant graces as an unearned reward for the good that we are able to do in Him and for Him, we’d never be able to do good at all.

In other words: It is our good works that keep us in the practice of loving and honoring God, through the unearned grace that He rewards us with in doing those good works. Really, it’s only logical. Faith without works withers and dies, sooner or later. There is no exception. The question is not one of somehow completing Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, but of keeping it available through our works for ourselves and for others, by the unearned (but freely and lovingly given) grace of God.
 
"This view of salvation is a crucial issue because it strikes at the very heart of the Gospel message eternal life. Roman Catholicism teaches that we are not saved by faith alone. The Church has taught this since 30 A.D. as part of the Divine Revelation. The truth of the Catholic Church’s teaching can be demonstrated from Sacred Scripture alone.

All who claim the title “Christian” will be able to agree on the following two truths: salvation is by grace alone (Ephesians 2:8) and salvation is through Christ alone (Acts 4:12). These biblical facts will be our foundation as we explain the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Why stop at verse 8
Ephesians 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Works are not part of salvation, but part of our growth as a Christian. As we grow in faith and knowledge we are more eager to demonstrate God’s love for others.
 
If we take a concordance and look up every occurrence of the word “faith,” we come up with an undeniable fact the only time the phrase “faith alone” is used in the entire Bible is when it is condemned (James 2:24). The epistle of James only mentions it in the negative sense.
Protestant Bibles don’t have the book of James? Just kidding. James never says anything about works being involved in salvation, but justification. I call myself a father, I am justified in that by the existence of my children. I can say I have faith, but if I really have faith I will be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The fruits of the Spirit include love, kindness, gentleness, goodness,all things that must be expressed to other people. I call myself a Christian, can I justify that claim by the way I live my life?
The Bible tells us we must have faith in order to be saved (Hebrews 11:6). Yet is faith nothing more than believing and trusting? Searching the Scriptures, we see faith also involves assent to God’s truth (1 Thessalonians 2:13), obedience to Him (Romans 1:5, 16:26), and it must be working in love (Galatians 5:6). These points appeared to be missed by the reformers, yet they are just as crucial as believing and trusting. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) should be heeded by all it’s certainly an attention grabber.
So salvation involves faith, works, believing, trusting, assenting, obeying, and loving. Jesus forgot to mention that in John 3:16. And what do you think the phrase born again means? We are new creations in Christ, of course we expect peoples lives to change. But that change is a result of the Spirit, how can we take credit for the working of the Spirit in our lives?
Paul speaks of faith as a life-long process, never as a one-time experience (Philippians 2:12). He never assumes he has nothing to worry about. If he did, his words in (1 Corinthians 9:24-27) would be nonsensical. He reiterates the same point again in his second letter to Corinth (2 Corinthians 13:5). He takes nothing for granted, yet all would agree if anyone was “born again” it certainly was Paul. Our Lord and Savior spoke of the same thing by “remaining in Him” (John 15:1-11).
Paul tells us our faith is living and can go through many stages. It never stays permanently fixed after a single conversion experience no matter how genuine or sincere. Our faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), disowned (1 Timothy 5:8) wandered from (1 Timothy 6:10), and missed (1 Timothy 6:21). Christians do not have a “waiver” that exempts them from these verses.
True, those who have lost the light (Hebrews 6) can never regain it, but can they lose it simply by sinning? If we can’t earn our salvation with works can we lose it with sin? Do you think God didn’t know about our future sins when we came to Him for forgiveness? Of course He did, and forgave us anyway. I would submit that these verses refer to a complete change of belief and lifestyle. By the way, you missed Jesus parable about the seeds sown in weed and among the rocky soil.
Do our works mean anything? According to Jesus they do (Matthew 25:31-46). The people rewarded and punished are done so by their actions. And our thoughts (Matthew 15:18-20) and words (James 3:6-12) are accountable as well. These verses are just as much part of the Bible as Romans 10:8-13 and John 3:3-5.
If our works are counted toward our reward then are our sins counted as well? If God will only forgive our sins after we do works doesn’t that mean we are earning our salvation?
Some will object by appealing to Romans 4:3 and stating Abraham was “declared righteous” before circumcision. Thus he was only saved by “believing” faith (Genesis 15:6), not by faith “working in love” (Galatians 5:6). Isn’t this what Paul means when he says none will be justified by “works of law” (Romans 3:28)? No, this is not what he means. He’s condemning the Old Covenant sacrifices and rituals which couldn’t justify and pointing to better things now in Christ Jesus in the New Covenant (Hebrews 7-10). A close examination of Abraham’s life revealed a man of God who did something. In Genesis 12-14 he makes two geographical moves, builds an altar and calls on the Lord, divides land with Lot to end quarrels, pays tithes, and refuses goods from the King of Sodom to rely instead on God’s providence. He did all these works as an old man. It was certainly a struggle. After all these actions of faith, then he’s “declared righteous” (Genesis 15:6). Did these works play a role in his justification? According to the Bible, yes.
Like I said before, salvation and justification are two different things.
The Catholic Church has never taught we “earn” our salvation.
Then why all the Scriptures? And what are we arguing about? We are saved by grace, through faith, and not by works. Lest any man should boast.
It is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21), freely given to anyone who becomes a child of God (1 John 3:1), so long as they remain that way (John 15:1-11). You can’t earn it but you can lose the free gift given from the Father (James 1:17).
You can’t earn your salvation but you can lose it by not doing enough good works? That sure sounds like earning to me.

The reformer’s position cannot be reconciled with the Bible. That is why the Catholic Church has taught otherwise for over 1,960 years."
from ewtn.com/library/answers/faworks.htm
From your presentation I would say that faith alone makes your works acceptable to God.
 
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