What does it mean to be "the Son of God?"

[inJESUS]

and this is not what we believe in so we agree.

What do you think of ‘Jesus the God’, a creation or the creator?

is the Word of God that created everything created? of course not. The Bible clearly says that threw Jesus everything was created because He existed before any creation since He is God.

Words are not a God, but the source, the mind is belong to God which is eternal. Since the words came from mind, the expression must have existed there for always, specially when it is the mind of God as he is the only one who knows everything from always.

as i said in my previous post, the mind of God is not God yet not different from God in nature at the same time. when you understand this line of reasoning, you’ll get a better understanding of why Jesus is not The Father yet not different from the Father.

Where he said he is Good?

if you take a close look at the passage in hand, Jesus tells the man to leave everything and follow Him if he wants to be perfect. Following Jesus makes him perfect more than yhe Law itself. Can you be perfect by following a bad man or sinful man? you become perfect when you seek perfection= Jesus.

He was to be followed not because he is good, but he was TAUGHT by God (he was a prophet, a messenger of God) to be followed to have eternal life.

that’s your interpretation and not what Jesus said or what any other prophet said. All other prophets pointed to the Law but Jesus pointed to Himself. No other prophet told people they become perfect by following him but by following and applying the Law. Jesus , on the other hand, said that :

“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;…and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.”

Jesus is simply telling them that He is more important than the scriptures ! just like He said He is more important than the Temple! and that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. These, my friend, are not the words of someone “sent” by God but the words of God Himself, otherwise they’re utter blasphemy.

But the God in him was omnipotent. Wasn’t it? And Jesus (pbuh) was supposed to be God in flesh/man. Wasn’t he? Didn’t the (ignorance of) man in him had the access to the (knowledge of) God in him? If the God in him was inapprochable in need of man in him (like it happened near the fig tree), how can you say they were two members of the same trinity? I think you are seriously forgetting many things

you are simply questioning how God can do things. You might get many answers about this but not from me because am not someone who speculates on how God can do His things. After all, He said " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9
So let’s not project what “we” can do or understand on what God can do.

 

[Gill79]

Hi

all I want to know do catholics believe Jesus as God?
Do they pray , in the name of Jesus? stating it at start or end dt of prayer doesnt matter, just that do, they utter these words?

Gillian

 

[Gill79]

many titles in bible old and new are annocment for us and to us and to relate with earth. some titles relate to earth as God created it so rightfully that why these titles. many titles are facts of God himself. some titles are God`s misson with us not yet fulfilled but going to be.
like as title Alpha and Omega
Alpha is fact only by declartion and by bible m of Christ
Omega is fact but as well is prochecy not yet fulfillied but Jesus will be at the end true faith so that why Omega revel in revelation as mission only complted with Mankind with Jesus Coming.(Mission to finish)

Jesus was not Son in any roles clash of Father or lesser but as divine as Father and Holy Spirit in God.
Jesus is as second person to manifest Godhimself in flesh to mankind. that the only role why he called son of God( name Jesus too) is to relate to his mission to Man, not the Father or his Deity) Father only called Father by New testment on more inimate title not cos he alway is Father. that why Jews of O T said God never Abbas cos titles fulfilled on more inimate note in shape of Christ, his mission teachings etc.
Old testment procphices as Pslam 2 begotten look
“… in THIS DAY…have i begotten you”. Jesus from enterility just when had he begotten… He is God Son, and is begotten since the fulfilled in Mary stomach
Acts 13.33(confirmtion of pslam prochecy) lots of new testment procphecies as jesus himself sayings it by old testment relating to Jesus mainly are confirmtion of prohecy of old (mostly not fulfilled in OLD testment) already fulfilled.
or by Jesus himself like, " before u this prochecy are begin fulfilled" more less point to himself so enraged jews as his
implying of Himself.

prochecies of old what going to be. same prochecies begin fulfilled since then Jesus alway going to be Son of God. name Jesus. Head of three always going to be Father since then when mission started having fulfilled it. nothing to do with Deity differences.
if you think there are differance in Deity or his Divine ablity to that of Father. Im intrested to know what
Gill

 

[Khalfan]

Not according to requirement, according to meaning.

How could you mean this oneness as divine,

Originally Posted by MHalsey
I notice you don’t add the last lines of this, so I will:

37If I am not doing my Father’s work, there is no need to believe me;
38but if I am doing it, then even if you refuse to believe in me, at least believe in the work I do; then you will know for certain that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
39They again wanted to arrest him then, but he eluded their clutches.

This oneness as something else?

Originally Posted by Khalfan
If you have taken that oneness literally, you are supposed to take this oneness too in literal meaning.

At John 17:20-23 “that they may all be one just as as You Father are in Me and I in You.”

Are you God as Jesus (pbuh) is according to your belief?

If you are interested to know, how Jesus (pbuh) was one in God, Check this.

I can see the special interest.

 

[Khalfan]

which proves my point that the mind of God existed with God forever; in other words, the Mind of God is eternal. And we both agree that the Mind of God is not God but is not different than God; or is it different?

Not we both, but you don’t agree that Mind of God is God. I believe it is most imporatnt part of God as his own entity in existence. If no mind, No God.

You were supposed to make the ‘word’ as God. And Word cannot be God since it is a product of Mind. The source is God, not the outcome.

this is not what i said. I said you believe Jesus was born without a physical union between a man and a woman for no reason. We do because He was incarnated.

Adam (pbuh) was better then. He haven’t had both father or mother.

We believe, it was nothing morethan a miracle.

 

[inJESUS]

Not we both, but you don’t agree that Mind of God is God. I believe it is most imporatnt part of God as his own entity in existence. **If no mind, No God. **

i think we’re on the same wave here If no mind, then God is mindless = unacceptable. If no wisdom, then God is wisdomless= not acceptable. If no word, then God is speechless= unacceptable.

Now Jesus, as God’s Word and Wisdom, cannot be different IN NATURE from the Father. No Wisdom, No God right? if we replace wisdom with Jesus, no Jesus no God. Why? because Wisdom is God.

You were supposed to make the ‘word’ as God. And Word cannot be God since it is a product of Mind. The source is God, not the outcome.

 

[Khalfan]

and this is not what we believe in so we agree.

Do you think, God can be God of another God?

is the Word of God that created everything created? of course not. The Bible clearly says that threw Jesus everything was created because He existed before any creation since He is God.

I am not talking about everything, but Jesus (pbuh). Was he a creation or the creator?

as i said in my previous post, the mind of God is not God yet not different from God in nature at the same time. when you understand this line of reasoning, you’ll get a better understanding of why Jesus is not The Father yet not different from the Father.

Mind is OK. ‘Word’ is the issue, which can only be an outcome of mind.

if you take a close look at the passage in hand, Jesus tells the man to leave everything and follow Him if he wants to be perfect. Following Jesus makes him perfect more than yhe Law itself. Can you be perfect by following a bad man or sinful man? you become perfect when you seek perfection = Jesus.

If he was Good, why would he deny being called as Good? Why he pointed to God, as the only one Good, when he himself is Good and God? As I have explained in thread ‘Why?’, the question and answer been reworked. “Why do you call me Good?” (implies, he cannot be called as Good, but God alone) has been changed to “Why do you ask me about good?” (Which reworked as, Jesus (pbuh) can be called as Good).

Even the previous prophets were asking people to do the same, to follow them. Was Jesus (pbuh) perfect? Was he perfect in divine knowledge?

that’s your interpretation and not what Jesus said or what any other prophet said. All other prophets pointed to the Law but Jesus pointed to Himself. No other prophet told people they become perfect by following him but by following and applying the Law. Jesus , on the other hand, said that :

“You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;…and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.”

Jesus is simply telling them that He is more important than the scriptures ! just like He said He is more important than the Temple! and that He is the Lord of the Sabbath. These, my friend, are not the words of someone “sent” by God but the words of God Himself, otherwise they’re utter blasphemy.

But Jesus (pbuh) said, follow the commandmends. It is as importamt as following him. And he said, he didn’t come to break any law, but to fulfill. So he too was following the law. Then how did you say, following Jesus (pbuh) is more important than following the law?

you are simply questioning how God can do things. You might get many answers about this but not from me because am not someone who speculates on how God can do His things. After all, He said " For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9
So let’s not project what “we” can do or understand on what God can do.

Not at all my dear. You only said Jesus (pbuh) is Word/God in flesh. The flesh lived on earth. We know the flesh, not the God. And that flesh never said, he is God. That had many of human limitations. But you still claim the God in him. I am not questioning the doings of God. God indeed cannot be understanded completely, but you impose that God into a Man in flesh with human limitations. Here is my question arise and you must answer.

Didn’t the (ignorance of) man in him had the access to the (knowledge of) God in him? If the God in him was inapprochable in need of man in him (like it happened near the fig tree), how can you say they were two members of the same trinity?

If you still insist, he was God, I would conclude that the God in him didn’t know the Man in him and the man in him didn’t know the God in him. Do you agree that?

 

[Khalfan]

i think we’re on the same wave here If no mind, then God is mindless = unacceptable. If no wisdom, then God is wisdomless= not acceptable. If no word, then God is speechless= unacceptable.

Now Jesus, as God’s Word and Wisdom, cannot be different IN NATURE from the Father. No Wisdom, No God right? if we replace wisdom with Jesus, no Jesus no God. Why? because Wisdom is God.

Now you are trying to make the ‘word’ -outcome of mind, equal to mind which is the source of word. For that, you said “If no word, then God is speechless= unacceptable”. Tell me, do God really have to speak, to express himself? Speaking is only on of the way to express the mind/wisdom.

I think you still have to learn a lot on WORD and Wisdom. It cannot be the same because Wisdom/Mind is the source of Word. Creation and existence of Word is depended on the souce Mind/Wisdom. But existence of Wisdom/Mind is not depended on any of its outcome. Each and every creation is an outcome and depended on source mind/Wisdom of God.

that’s because you didn’t understand the implications of what i wrote or maybe i failed to explain well.

Word did not need to be uttered or written to be alive. A word was defined as “an articulate unit of thought, capable of intelligible utterance.”

The ‘word’ is not capable of any power unless it is given by the source.

Why then is Jesus equal to the father in nature but not equal in position? because of Christ’s **functional subordination **(just as our words and speech are subordinate to ourselves) and his **ontological equality **(just as our words represent our authority and our essential nature) with the Father.

The prologue to John’s gospel makes a precise identification of Christ with Wisdom, describing the Logos’ Christological role (1:3), its role as the ground of human knowledge (1:9) and as the mediator of special revelation (1:14) – the three roles of the pre-existent Logos/Wisdom. In calling Jesus God’s Logos, John was affirming Jesus’ eternality and ontological oneness with the Father by connecting him with the Wisdom tradition.

Now consider these parallels with John’s prologue and the Wisdom literature:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Wisdom of Solomon 9:9 With you (God) is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Proverbs 8:35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (1:11)
1 Enoch 42:2 Wisdom went forth to make her dwelling among the children of men, and found no dwelling place.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us…
Sirach 24:8 The one who created me assigned a place for my tent. And he said: ‘Make your dwelling in Jerusalem.’

John 6:27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
Wisdom of Solomon 16:26 On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval. So that your children, whom you loved, O Lord, might learn that it is not the production of crops that feeds humankind but that your word sustains those who trust in you.

John 14:15 If you love me, you will obey what I command.
Wisdom of Solomon 16:18 And love of Wisdom is the keeping of her laws, and giving heed to her laws is assurance of immortality.

These are some quotations from John. There are many other quotations from John and from Paul and Matthew regarding Jesus as the Logos/Wisdom of the Father.

John and Paul. You wont find that much GODness in Matthew and Luke. It is far far less in Mark. The GODness was grown by time, influence of other writings and own understandings.

Continue.

 

[Khalfan]

Continue.

If we both agree that if no wisdom/mind no God, then without Jesus no God and without Holy Spirit no God. That’s the Trinity.

You still have to give reason for that. You are getting complicated as deep as you go. If Jesus (pbuh) was the Mind of GOD, he wouldn’t pray to God, to save him from cross. He would have known the season of fig tree. He would have known the person who touched his cloak and got healed. He would have known the end time. He wouldn’t say, he was taght by another GOD/Mind. He wouldn’t call that God “MY GOD”. He wouldn’t seperate his will and God’s will. He wouldn’t say that GOD is greater than him. He would never say, he is unable to do anything unless he is given the power to do so by HIS God. He would have said at least ONCE, what he was.

Adam was the first human so logic follows that he has no father or mother.After that, sexual union became the norm and everyone, since then, was born out of a sexual union. That’s simple logic. Jesus, on the other hand, came after thousands of prophets born “normally”, yet He came with no earthly father, no sexual union. So no, Adam was no better. No one is better than Jesus. If you believe He was born to no father with no reason, we do have the truth about His miraculous birth since He was the Wisdom/Logos of God incarnated and who took His dwelling in Jerusalem.

reconsider your position and ask why, after thousands of peophets, Jesus was the only one born as such? it was a miracle to prove what? that God can do anything? well that was already established with Adam. To prove what? that Jesus is a prophet? thousands of prophets were born normally yet they were prophets. To prove that Jesus does miracles? well it was not Jesus who did it or was He according to you? if not, then why did Allah do this miracle? re-think. Miracles have goals. What is the goal of a miraculous birth when thousands of prophets before Jesus were born naturally?

Why God do miracles?

Hope that will answer your question as well.

 

[Peregrino]

I have been doing a lot of reading because of this thread. From my cursory research, it appears that the phrase “Son of God” was quite common in hebrew/aramaic at Jesus’ time and meant that the recipient of this phrase was a true child of God, someone truly imbued with the holy spirit and doing God’s work. When this phrase was translated into Greek and Greco-Roman culture (with its cultural history of Gods breeding with humans producing demigods), it came to mean that Jesus was himself divine. The original meaning was literally lost in translation linguistically and culturally. See Geza Vermes works.

This has provided me with much food for prayer/thought/reflection.

 

[inJESUS]

Do you think, God can be God of another God?

that’s not what we believe in so i fail to understand why you repeat the same question. No God cannot be God of another God. God the Father is the God of Jesus the man born under the Law yet God the Father is not the God of His Word that existed eternally with Him because it is not a creation but of the Father’s own nature. Clear?

I am not talking about everything, but Jesus (pbuh). Was he a creation or the creator?

 

[inJESUS]

Now you are trying to make the ‘word’ -outcome of mind, equal to mind which is the source of word. For that, you said “If no word, then God is speechless= unacceptable”. Tell me, do God really have to speak, to express himself? Speaking is only on of the way to express the mind/wisdom.

I think you still have to learn a lot on WORD and Wisdom. It cannot be the same because Wisdom/Mind is the source of Word. Creation and existence of Word is depended on the souce Mind/Wisdom. But existence of Wisdom/Mind is not depended on any of its outcome. Each and every creation is an outcome and depended on source mind/Wisdom of God.

 

[inJESUS]

Why God do miracles?

Hope that will answer your question as well.

that’s m,y question. Why did God do this miracle? for what purpose?

 

[inJESUS]

I have been doing a lot of reading because of this thread. From my cursory research, it appears that the phrase “Son of God” was quite common in hebrew/aramaic at Jesus’ time and meant that the recipient of this phrase was a true child of God, someone truly imbued with the holy spirit and doing God’s work. When this phrase was translated into Greek and Greco-Roman culture (with its cultural history of Gods breeding with humans producing demigods), it came to mean that Jesus was himself divine. The original meaning was literally lost in translation linguistically and culturally. See Geza Vermes works.

This has provided me with much food for prayer/thought/reflection.

i fail to understand your point. There are many things that changed in light of what Jesus revealed about Himself, be it titles, prophecies or other things.

 

[Peregrino]

i fail to understand your point. There are many things that changed in light of what Jesus revealed about Himself, be it titles, prophecies or other things.

From my readings of different authors, it would appear that the phrase “son of God”, as used by the Hebrew/Aramaic speaking Jews of Jesus’ day, was given a different meaning by the Greek speaking communities/audiences who became Christian after Jesus’ death.

Jesus revealed himself to the Jews of around 30 AD, not the Greek speaking audiences from around 70-110 AD when the gospels were written.

 

[Khalfan]

i fail to understand your point. There are many things that changed in light of what Jesus revealed about Himself, be it titles, prophecies or other things.

Exactly my dear. That is what we Muslims believe. There are many things changed which Jesus (pbhu) preached. That is why you people always have to INTERPRET quotes of Jesus (pbuh) to impose GODness in him. Jesus (pbuh) never ever taught he is God or anything about an ONE in THREE GOD. Almost 90 % of the quotes from Jesus (pbuh) have its own side of a messenger but you just ignore that, but consider the other 10% which is either fabricated as 1 john 5:7 or reworked as in many verses (those which differ the words and usage of the same events in each gospels). The first Gospels written, MARK didn’t include 16:9-20, the resurrection part originally as per the scholars of NIV and confirmed as a later fabrication.

Watch this.

 

[Khalfan]

that’s m,y question. Why did God do this miracle? for what purpose?

For as a sign, for that the Messengers were truly from GOD, what they were speaking was truly from GOD.

 

[dessert]

Hi

all I want to know do catholics believe Jesus as God?
Do they pray , in the name of Jesus? stating it at start or end dt of prayer doesnt matter, just that do, they utter these words?

Gillian

Go to www.newadvent.com (the nicene creed)

states what we believe, we speak this at our every mass.

 

[Khalfan]

you are arguing “outside the dish” as we say you are stressing on words instead of meaning. Yet you still have to answer:

Is God’s Word created and not eternal? when you answer this question, you’ll realize there’ s no need for any gymnastics.
As to Word/Wisdom, you’ve got to understand it in how the OT and NT understood it.

My dear, didn’t I already tell you, that the word is not the same as Wisdom/Mind -the source of the word. Word is an out come of WIsdom/Mind. In Islam, we don’t believe the book or the arabic words in Quran is eternal, but the concept and the message existing in it is eternal, since it existing in the Wisdom/Mind of God. The words in Quran is recorded and preserved in the heaven as per below.

"Nay this is a Glorious Qur’an, (21) (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! "(22) -Quran 85

We cannot say it is eternal since the word has a beginning. So , I say it again, Word of God is created, But not the source. The source, Wisdom/Mind of God is eternal.

Now it is your turn to answer me.

WORD and Wisdom cannot be the same because Wisdom/Mind is the source of Word. Creation and existence of Word is depended on the souce Mind/Wisdom. But existence of Wisdom/Mind is not depended on any of its outcome. Each and every creation is an outcome and depended on source mind/Wisdom of God. If word is eternal, every creation of God has to be eternal. What do you say?

bad bad corruptors. They should have “inserted” the same amount in all gospels

Like someone have inserted it in Mark 16:9-20 or in 1 John 5:7.

 

[inJESUS]

[quote="Khalfan, post:76, topic:79776"]
Exactly my dear. That is what we Muslims believe.

unfortunatly what you believe in is that God did not preserve His word as He said- and that all people corrupt their books except Muslims; as if nobody cares about God except you. These are the techniques used by cults- doubting God’s power and denying all previous scriptures.

There are many things changed which Jesus (pbhu) preached.

you fail to get my point It was Jesus who changed them. Who the Messiah is or what He will do is one example. When Jews expected him to be a rich king who will save them, Jesus was poor and not an king as understood by people. Or will you tell me that we made Jesus poor as well and deprived him of his kingdom and maybe destroyed his castle ?

That is why you people always have to INTERPRET quotes of Jesus (pbuh) to impose GODness in him.

we do not need to interpret them for “us” but to people who do not understand what Jesus uttered in relation to how it was understood back then. One simple example is " my peace i give to you, not as the world give do i give you". These are not words that people like Muhammad or prophets like Moses can utter because it’d be blasphemy to say that a human gives peace the “world” cannot give because only God gives peace. Another example would be " i give you wisdom"…well sir, only God gives wisdom and no other prophet dared utter these words as they are blasphemy, yet Jesus did. These are 2 simple examples but the Bible is full of them if interpreted in light of what they meant to Jews back then, and not what they meant to arabs 600 years later or JW thousands of years later. Not to mention that, like you, we have sacred tradition written by the apostles’ apostle and Jesus “Godness” was preached since the first century.

Jesus (pbuh) never ever taught he is God or anything about an ONE in THREE GOD.

why don’t you answer me this:

Is God’s word another god or is it of god’s nature yet not god?

Almost 90 % of the quotes from Jesus (pbuh) have its own side of a messenger but you just ignore that, but consider the other 10% which is either fabricated as 1 john 5:7 or reworked as in many verses (those which differ the words and usage of the same events in each gospels). The first Gospels written, MARK didn’t include 16:9-20, the resurrection part originally as per the scholars of NIV and confirmed as a later fabrication.

you see? so when we quote them, you shout “corrupt!”. We people, unlike you, do not question God when He says He preserves His word. We care less for what self-claimed scholars say because, with time, other scholars discover they were wrong not to mention that, again, in our sacred tradition, since the first century, God, His word and His Spirit are One God. Remember that unlike what Muhammad taught you , Jesus left no book. Jesus left disciples who established churches everywhere. These churches left us the disciples’ teachings before the NT was compiled. So unlike what you think, we do not believe in the divinity of Jesus because of the Bible but because of His disciples and their disciples afterwards. You, on the other hand, not only you reject the historical event of his crucifixion and think that God made a trick on the cross, but you also question God’s seriousness when He says He preserves His word and remember that satan’s first attempt to seduce adam was " no God did not say that".

[/quote]