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I
inJESUS
Guest
Quran is not at all equal to God in anyway. It is far less than Allah.
are you sure
ok let’s see :
if the Quran is the word of Allah:
is it created or uncreated?
is it eternal or not?
is it divine or not?
Mainstream islam teaches the quran is the eternal, divine, uncreated word of allah. Unless you belong to another sect.
K
Khalfan
Guest
are you sure
M
MHalsey
Guest
I notice you don’t add the last lines of this, so I will:
I highlighted the important part for you. In other words, the first part of this altercation with the jews is a challenge by Jesus. Jesus does not deny what he claims, but that they are going to stone him for it. He then goes on to reaffirm what he claims (the highlighted quote).
P
Peregrino
Guest
Does having the Father in oneself and being a part of the Father mean that one is God?
M
MHalsey
Guest
Yes. Jesus is claiming he shares God’s divine nature. Do you think it means something different.
P
Peregrino
Guest
To be honest with you, I don’t know what it means. However, I don’t think that your conclusion is the only one possible.
For instance, God is the creator of everything. By deduction, everything that exists is of God, from God and part of God. In this context, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” makes sense (a panentheistic view).
also
Jesus says he is doing the work of the Father and to believe the miracles. Jesus does not say “know for certain that I AM the Father and the Father IS me”? In fact, in John 10:31 Jesus says “I have shown you many great miracles FROM the Father”.
In light of this, I see Khalfan’s point. It appears that Jesus is identifying with a certain phrase in scripture, not with GOD himself. It may be that seen this way, Jesus is a “god” (consistent with the scripture he highlighted) because he does the work of the Father. Siince the work is God’s, Jesus is therefore in the Father and the Father in him. Now that I think about it, wasn’t Jesus’ mission to reveal the Kingdom of God (as the Gospel of Luke says, it is here on earth)?
I
inJESUS
Guest
so the word of Allah is eternal. But only Allah is eternal.
Conclusion:
1- we have 2 eternal deities
or:
2- Allah and His word are the same One deity.
Since you believe in one Allah, then Allah and His word are One Allah. The Word of Allah is not Allah but it is not different from Allah because it is eternal and uncreated like allah.
because you always forget that Jesus being only God was an early heresy refuted by the church. Jesus is both divine and human; as a man he was not equal to the father but Jesus as the Word Incarnate is equal to the Father in nature and does exactly what the Father does because they are one.
Jesus did not come to this world without a father for no reason as Muhammad told you. God does nothing without a reason.
I
inJESUS
Guest
if you utter thsi sentence in these days is not like a Jew uttering it 2000 years ago. It is not a matter of a sentence; many statements by Jesus were never said by any previous prophet no matter his importance. Not even Moses dared say that he is more important that the temple as Jesus said for example.No prophet dared say he is the Lord of the Sabbath as Jesus said. No prophet said he gives peace the world cannot give; no prophet promised his followers to be with them till the end of days; no prophet dared say he is the alpha and omega and no prophet dared say no one knows the Father except him; no prophet dared say that he is knowcking at your door waiting for you to open so that he enters; a hundred other sentence uttered by Jesus could simply not be uttered by an ordinary human being, especially the ones that are a parallele of what God in the OT says about Himself; let alone a Jewish rabbi 2000 years ago without being the worse blasphemer ever. So no, it’s not this sentence or that sentence; it’s his life, words, deeds, proof, promises, and prophecies that were and are and will be experienced as He said.
P
Peregrino
Guest
Agreed. However, the perception of those hearing these words and the reality of these words can be (could have been) two different things.
I
inJESUS
Guest
that’s if Jesus were not a Jew 2000 years ago, let alone a rabbi who knows pretty well what words meant to a Jewish audiance including the Pharisee.
M
MHalsey
Guest
Thankfully we don’t base our belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, on a single line from scripture. This is the problem with discussions like this. One person will cling to one line in scripture to prove a point, then disregard every other passage dealing with the same issue.
That being said, name one other prophet that ever made the same claim, “I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.” No other prophet dared to make this claim because the Jews knew exactly what it meant.
P
Peregrino
Guest
You are exactly right.
Two issues remain. And I am not pointing these out in any way to attack our faith, Jesus’ divinity or prove Khalfan’s claims/agenda. Ultimately my goal is to point out that we have to have faith.
- If we took every individual phrase referring to Christ’s divinity, could we analyze it and shed enough doubt upon it to make it questionable? Probably.
- Did Jesus actually say these things (claim/assume/self-awareness of his divinity)? From what I have read, most historical Jesus scholars would say “no”. The Gospel of John is markedly different than the synoptics, and is largely (conveniently?) theological in nature. Just think about how much of our theology as Catholics can be found in John. We will never know how accurate the Gospels are; they were written decades after the events they described and weren’t meant to be perfectly historical.
Does the idea of substitutionary atonement require that Christ be Divine? I think though Jews will say that human sacrifice is forbidden therefor God wouldn’t allow it in any form.
We have to have faith, a faith that doesn’t solely rest on scriptures and/or tradition. Doubts can always be leveled against these things.
K
Khalfan
Guest
The words are a way of expression of mind. Whatever God spoke was the expression of his mind. Words are not a diety at all, but the source, the mind of God is. Since the words came from mind, the expression must have existed there for always, specially when it is the mind of God as he is the only one who knows everything from always.
When Jesus (pbuh) was speaking or working, who was speaking or working, God in him or Man in him?
We don’t believe Jesus (pbuh) came to this world for no reason. We believe he came exactly for the same reason that all prophets (pbut) came before and after him.
K
Khalfan
Guest
If you have taken that oneness literally, you are supposed to take this oneness too in literal meaning.
At John 17:20-23 “that they may all be one just as as You Father are in Me and I in You.”
Are you God as Jesus (pbuh) is according to your belief?
If you are interested to know, how Jesus (pbuh) was one in God, Check this.
M
MHalsey
Guest
Not exactly. But we are united in Christ through the sacrament of Holy Communion. And after death we are united with God in Heaven. This does not mean we share God’s divine nature as Jesus does. At least that is how I understand it.
K
Khalfan
Guest
is this an answer to my quotation?
K
Khalfan
Guest
You interpret the oneness situationally and according to requirment, right? You don’t know what is it exactly.
M
MHalsey
Guest
Not according to requirement, according to meaning.
Maybe I don’t know it exactly (yet). To know it fully I would have to experience it in Heaven. But to receive Holy Communion comes close enough to satisfy my belief. My prayer for you is that one day you will too.
I
inJESUS
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