C
Cristiano
Guest
It is not that heavy if you consider that this life is nothing compared to eternity.
- Status
B
benedictgal
Guest
However, puzzleannie speaks the Truth. The Church did not make this up. It comes from her Divine Spouse, Jesus Christ.
Our Lord spoke clearly and plainly when He addressed the issue of marriage. He didn’t mince any words.
To the OP: My beloved grandmother, who died two years ago this coming Thursday, divorced my grandfather when my dad was a baby. She married another man, but, she did not secure an annulment. Even though she was in an invalid marriage, she never stopped going to Mass and she reared my father and his half-sister in the Faith of the Church. I will never fully understand why my grandma did what she did (I know she had to support my dad and he was sickly). But, she never, ever left the Church. In fact, she was the one who taught me to have a love for the Paschal Triduum. I could never figure out (as a child) why she could not receive Holy Communion.
When I graduated from Catholic school (8th grade), I was surprised to see my grandma and my step-grandfather stand in line to receive Holy Communion. She had finally petitioned for an annulment and it was granted. You cannot imagine the joy in her face as she received Holy Communion for the first time in 40 years.
My grandma took the teachings of the Church, the teachings of Jesus Christ, very seriously. Yes, what she did was wrong back in the 1940s; however, she still held on to the Church for dear life. Even though she couldn’t fully partake of the Church’s sacramental life, she could not live without Sunday.
You cannot live without Sunday, nor can I. Furthermore, the Faith that I pray you will hand on to your children, is actually the fulfillment of all of the promises that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made to Ancient Israel. The Church is the New Israel. We are members of the New Israel. Those promises are ours as well. Do not deny the children you will have the gift of the Catholic Church. Do not deny yourself the Faith of Jesus Christ that exists fully in the Church.
R
rdcathnet
Guest
Puzzleannie,
The purpose of posting the question in this forum is to find out what it means to the Catholic Church to enter into an unrecognized marriage. I do not fault my fiance for asking how important it is to me, especially since neither of us knew what it MEANT. Only in this forum am I gaining a better understanding, so I do not really appreciate the condeming in your words.
And even STILL I feel like I keep being told I’d be committing a mortal sin, but not getting a direct answer to what sin I would be committing.
The purpose of posting the question in this forum is to find out what it means to the Catholic Church to enter into an unrecognized marriage. I do not fault my fiance for asking how important it is to me, especially since neither of us knew what it MEANT. Only in this forum am I gaining a better understanding, so I do not really appreciate the condeming in your words.
And even STILL I feel like I keep being told I’d be committing a mortal sin, but not getting a direct answer to what sin I would be committing.
B
benedictgal
Guest
You are committing the sin of adultery. You are marrying the husband of another woman. Civil divorces do not mean anything in the Church. As far as the Church is concerned, your fiance is still married. This is not some man-made doctrine; this comes from Our Lord, himself:
This teaching goes both ways. It is something that the Church cannot change because she has no authority to edit the teaching of her Divine Spouse.
I also direct you to what the Catechism says:
You need to pray about this and speak to a priest. Again, I have to concur with puzzleannie, your eternal salvation is at stake. The problem is that heaven is something that we don’t take very seriously anymore. And, that is truly sad.
R
rdcathnet
Guest
Benedictgal,
Thanks for sharing your story. That was very touching. Although, I have to say your last statement “Do not deny the children you will have the gift of the Catholic Church. Do not deny yourself the Faith of Jesus Christ that exists fully in the Church” is contradictary to your story. Your grandmother, although she was sinning, did not deny herself the church completely, nor did she deny her children and grandchildren the Catholic Church
All, thank you for your insight and advice. I am not taking any of it lightly, and will discuss with my priest and fiance.
Thanks for sharing your story. That was very touching. Although, I have to say your last statement “Do not deny the children you will have the gift of the Catholic Church. Do not deny yourself the Faith of Jesus Christ that exists fully in the Church” is contradictary to your story. Your grandmother, although she was sinning, did not deny herself the church completely, nor did she deny her children and grandchildren the Catholic Church
All, thank you for your insight and advice. I am not taking any of it lightly, and will discuss with my priest and fiance.
W
wanner47
Guest
The sin being committed is fornication – having sex with someone to whom you are not married. Your partner would be committing adultery by having sex with someone while still objectively married to another person.
I recommend reading Christopher West’s book Good News About Sex and Marriage to get a thorough understanding about the Catholic Church’s views on sex and marriage. Also, there’s a really good book about annulments by Ed Peters, a canon lawyer, if you want more information about the annulment process.
C
Corki
Guest
Can someone please elaborate more on WHY it is a mortal sin if he does not get his marriage annuled? It is because if the Catholic church does not recognize the marriage, (even though we are legally married) we will be considered living together in sin, having premarrital sex, and having kids out of Catholic wedlock?
Prety much except it is just “out of wedlock”. Having the kids is not really a sin but what leads up to the kids is.You would not be validly or licitly married since your “spouse” is still married in the eyes of God to the person he originally married.
AND because I am knowingly sinning according to Canon Law, that is why I cannot participate in any other Sacraments, including Reconciliation?
All Catholics are bound to follow proper form for marriage - that’s the canon law part. However, the seriously sinful part has nothing to do with form but rather living as man and wife when one party may have a valid marriage to someone else.
And only if he passes first (or his 1st spouse passes) can I participate in reconciliation (and other sacraments), because only then, am I no longer knowinly sinning? Is this correct?
You can participate in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation when you are both contrite and ready to ammend your life. In an irregular marriage that means regularizing or, in some cases, agreeing to live together as brother and sister. The other Sacraments generally require you to be in the state of grace and that generally means you have to be absolved in the Sacrament of Reconcilliation first. So you have to “pass first” by getting absolved of any sin and then re-enter the sacramental life of the Church.
Also, I beg to differ with this statement. Again, we’ve done much “research” on this also.
I’m pretty sure the law does not say we need to raise them Catholic" but to do our best to teach them about the faith. Which I believe we will be able to do better than those parents that practice with blinders.
The Church says that you - singular, the Catholic - must promise to “do your best” to raise your children in the Catholic faith. This is more than just teaching them about the faith from a distance. It involves religious ed, Sacrament prep, regular Mass etc.
Here is the quote and CL reference from the USCCBs new marriage web site:
Marriages between Catholics and non-Christians need deep discernment. We all know some that have worked and some that didn’t. I wish you the best.
B
benedictgal
Guest
What I mean by not denying is that you have the opportunity that my grandma didn’t take advantage of back in the 1940s. Like I said, I cannot go into specifics, but, it is suffice to say that although the invalid marriage excommunicated her from the Sacraments of the Church, she did not cease going to Mass. Nor did she cease praying the Rosary, reading her Bible (I inherited her Douay Rheims and it is very dog-eared and read-through) and maintaining a devotion to the Sacred Heart. Her situation prevented her from being a full and active participant in the Church; but, she never stopped going. She truly believed that missing Mass is a mortal sin and she didn’t want to keep piling on the sins by not going.
When she finally obtained her annulment, it was like an 800-lb gorilla was off her back.
I didn’t mean to sound harsh, but, you wanted an honest answer and I gave you one. Sometimes the answers we receive aren’t necessarily the ones we want to hear. But, please know that I’ll be praying for you. Please entrust yourself to the care of the Blessed Mother and St. Joseph.
C
Chris_Robinson
Guest
You are committing the sin of adultery. You are marrying the husband of another woman. Civil divorces do not mean anything in the Church. As far as the Church is concerned, your fiance is still married. This is not some man-made doctrine; this comes from Our Lord, himself:
If a civil divorces do not mean anything than why would a civil marriage mean anything in the church.? If he was married in a Jewish ceremony to a Jewish woman why would the church recognize that any more than its inability to recognize a civil divorce.
B
benedictgal
Guest
benedictgal;3497778:
The Church recognizes the marriages of non-Catholics, and, non-Christians, for that matter, as valid, regardless of who the parties are. The Catholic party, on the other hand, cannot have a civil wedding and expect the Church to recognize it. That is the big difference. The Catholic party must submit to the marriage guidelines of the Church, regardless of who the intended spouse is. If the spouse does not have a prior marriage, then, the situation is not complicated. However, a Catholic is obligated to marry someone who is “free to marry”, meaning, no previous marriage, or, as in the case of the OP, having the previous marriage annulled.You are committing the sin of adultery. You are marrying the husband of another woman. Civil divorces do not mean anything in the Church. As far as the Church is concerned, your fiance is still married. This is not some man-made doctrine; this comes from Our Lord, himself:
If a civil divorces do not mean anything than why would a civil marriage mean anything in the church.? If he was married in a Jewish ceremony to a Jewish woman why would the church recognize that any more than its inability to recognize a civil divorce.
C
Chris_Robinson
Guest
Chris Robinson;3497865:
So if you are not Catholic the church will recognize your civil marriage. But if you are Catholic the will not recognize your civil marriage? And in either case the church will not recognize a civil divorce?
W
wanner47
Guest
Non-Catholics are not bound to observe the Catholic form of marriage. Catholics, however, are.So if you are not Catholic the church will recognize your civil marriage. But if you are Catholic the will not recognize your civil marriage? And in either case the church will not recognize a civil divorce?
If you are non-Catholic and married in a civil marriage, the Church assumes that marriage is valid until it is proven otherwise by a marriage tribunal (or until the death of one of the spouses). If you are a Catholic and marry outside the Church, then that marriage is automatically invalid since Catholics are obligated to observe the Catholic form of marriage (i.e., marry within the Church).
As far as divorce, the Church teaches that divorce does not dissolve a valid marriage bond regardless of who contracts it (either Catholic or non-Catholic). The Church does recognize that in rare circumstances it may be necessary to obtain a divorce for the purpose of dividing property, determining custody of children, ensuring safety of abused spouses/children, etc. However, the “divorced” parties are still considered validly married (i.e., neither spouse is free to date or remarry) unless an annulment is granted or one of the spouses dies.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
yes it is indeed.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
please do not ask a direct question if you do not want a direct answer. in your second, more elaborated post, you directly asked this question, and it has been answered. as always, all that can be offered here is a general answer to a general question. For specific guidance on your own personal situation the only place to go is to your priest. I made no comment about your fiance, I answered your question, which was, what are the implications for a Catholic who contemplates the actions about which you posted.
1
1ke
Guest
Yes, you would be committing adultery because he is married to someone else in the Church’s eyes.
Yes. You can’t participate in Reconciliation because you aren’t sorry and you don’t plan to cease the adultery. And, you can’t participate in any other sacraments if you are in a state of mortal sin until you have received Reconciliation-- which you can’t do unless you are sorry and stop sinning.
This is very serious, as you know what happens to souls that die in unrepentent mortal sin.
Yes, there are many Catholics who do not know why they believe what they do. I am not one of them.
You are incorrect. So, let me give you the relevant canons:
Can. 1125 The local ordinary can grant a permission of this kind if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions have been fulfilled:
1/** the Catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith **and is to make a **sincere promise **to do **all **in his or her power so that all offspring are baptized and brought up in the Catholic Church;
2/ the other party is to be informed at an appropriate time about the promises which the Catholic party is to make, in such a way that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and obligation of the Catholic party;
3/ both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage which neither of the contracting parties is to exclude.
Can. 1366 Parents or those who take the place of parents who hand over their children to be baptized or educated in a non Catholic religion are to be punished with a censure or other just penalty.
That’s good, and you need to keep studying. You aren’t there yet if you are contemplating marrying outside the Church.
You are wrong. See above.
I am a very strong opponent of mixed marriages. However, I did not make any statements on that topic. I only answered your questions.
R
rdcathnet
Guest
Hi, All,
Thanks again for your advice and concerns on topics other than the topic I posted.
Where I live, there is a pretty strong community of support for Catholic-Jewish marriages and families. This includes some supportive Catholic Churches and Temples, as well as supportive Priests and Rabbis that work together with couples to guide them in living successfully in an interfaith marriage where both spouses are respected and supported to practice their own beliefs, and have also decided to raise their kids as both. Also, the supporting Priests & Rabbis have successfully preformed, and continue to counsel and preform integrated weddings and baptisms/baby namings. There is also an interfaith pre-cana. Also, there is a Sunday school that supports the teaching of BOTH to our kids. We have spoken to some of the children of these families (grade school and up), and are very comforted to see that they are not confused lost soles at all.
I’m sure some of you are reading this with disapproving eyes. But it seems to work for many, and hopefully it will work for us.
So again, thanks for your concerns on raising kids, baptisms, priest approvals, etc… but I think we’ll be ok
Thanks again for your advice and concerns on topics other than the topic I posted.
Where I live, there is a pretty strong community of support for Catholic-Jewish marriages and families. This includes some supportive Catholic Churches and Temples, as well as supportive Priests and Rabbis that work together with couples to guide them in living successfully in an interfaith marriage where both spouses are respected and supported to practice their own beliefs, and have also decided to raise their kids as both. Also, the supporting Priests & Rabbis have successfully preformed, and continue to counsel and preform integrated weddings and baptisms/baby namings. There is also an interfaith pre-cana. Also, there is a Sunday school that supports the teaching of BOTH to our kids. We have spoken to some of the children of these families (grade school and up), and are very comforted to see that they are not confused lost soles at all.
I’m sure some of you are reading this with disapproving eyes. But it seems to work for many, and hopefully it will work for us.
Thank you. There are over 300 couples in this group (1 of a small number of groups in our area), and 0 divorces. I attribute the great track record to it forces you to really analyse the relationship to see if it is worth it. And I believe it really opens up the lines of communication not only about religion and kids, but almost everything, at least for us.
So again, thanks for your concerns on raising kids, baptisms, priest approvals, etc… but I think we’ll be ok
R
rdcathnet
Guest
Hi, All,
Thanks again for your advice and concerns on topics other than the topic I posted.
Where I live, there is a pretty strong community of support for Catholic-Jewish marriages and families. This includes some supportive Catholic Churches and Temples, as well as supportive Priests and Rabbis that work together with couples to guide them in living successfully in an interfaith marriage where both spouses are respected and supported to practice their own beliefs, and have also decided to raise their kids as both. Also, the supporting Priests & Rabbis have successfully preformed, and continue to counsel and preform integrated weddings and baptisms/baby namings. There is also an interfaith pre-cana. Also, there is a Sunday school that supports the teaching of BOTH to our kids. We have spoken to some of the children of these families (grade school and up), and are very comforted to see that they are not confused lost soles at all.
I’m sure some of you are reading this with disapproving eyes. But it seems to work for many, and hopefully it will work for us.
So again, thanks for your concerns on raising kids, baptisms, priest approvals, etc… but I think we’ll be ok
Thanks again for your advice and concerns on topics other than the topic I posted.
Where I live, there is a pretty strong community of support for Catholic-Jewish marriages and families. This includes some supportive Catholic Churches and Temples, as well as supportive Priests and Rabbis that work together with couples to guide them in living successfully in an interfaith marriage where both spouses are respected and supported to practice their own beliefs, and have also decided to raise their kids as both. Also, the supporting Priests & Rabbis have successfully preformed, and continue to counsel and preform integrated weddings and baptisms/baby namings. There is also an interfaith pre-cana. Also, there is a Sunday school that supports the teaching of BOTH to our kids. We have spoken to some of the children of these families (grade school and up), and are very comforted to see that they are not confused lost soles at all.
I’m sure some of you are reading this with disapproving eyes. But it seems to work for many, and hopefully it will work for us.
Thank you. There are over 300 couples in this group (1 of a small number of groups in our area), and 0 divorces. I attribute the great track record to it forces you to really analyse the relationship to see if it is worth it. And I believe it really opens up the lines of communication not only about religion and kids, but almost everything, at least for us.
So again, thanks for your concerns on raising kids, baptisms, priest approvals, etc… but I think we’ll be ok
1
1ke
Guest
rd,
I’m sorry that these priests would do such a disservice as to flagerantly violate the laws of the Church and lead you to believe it is OK to raise your kids “both” Jewish and Catholic. How sad.
It is not possible to be both Jewish and Catholic. Either Jesus is God or he isn’t. Which will it be in your household?
I’m sorry that these priests would do such a disservice as to flagerantly violate the laws of the Church and lead you to believe it is OK to raise your kids “both” Jewish and Catholic. How sad.
It is not possible to be both Jewish and Catholic. Either Jesus is God or he isn’t. Which will it be in your household?
P
puzzleannie
Guest
just to keep the discussion on track, this is not a thread about the wisdom of mixed marriages, not is it about the marriage of 2 non-Catholics, and should be confined to the specific issues and questions raised by OP, which relate to the obligations binding on Catholics who are considering marriage to a non-Catholic.
K
kage_ar
Guest
- Status