What does "Sola Fide" mean?

[alwayswill]

“will do” As in good works?

What God will do …in us, to change us
to desire to please God by obeying His commands.

 

[rcwitness]

Nearly 2000 years ago Paul answered these very objections

Romans9
:19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

in 2016 I;ll answer this way :
Are the truly guilty paying their just penalty in prison
BECAUSE no one stopped them from the transgressions?

Are the truly guilty paying their just penalty in prison
BECAUSE no else paid the penalty for them?

of course not ? the guilty are paying their prison penalty BECAUSE they are guilty.

If God send every sinner the Hell He would be completely just:

If God chose to pay the penalty of only 100 He would be more merciful that any one deserved.

I don’t believe Paul is revealing that man’s will is not cooperative in faith that saves. I think he is speaking in terms of salvation coming to those who accept faith and so walk by faith. God chose (not man or his will) to call even Gentiles, who did not have the Law or birth right, his heirs of the promise, since the law of faith is what is required. The Law of works proved that all deserve death, but the law of faith shows God is merciful.

It was not dependent on man’s will that He extended the gift of faith to all nations, and removed the promise from those who were born children of Abraham, according to the flesh (but did not obey faith).

 

[Cathoholic]

Alwayswill. You said:

QUOTE:
this article at EWTN by Jimmy Akin brings up many good points:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm
it is a short read:

If you get a chance please look it over: I would like to discuss his points

Good article.

I read it and think it is right on.

I would like to discuss his points

I think that would be great. I’m “all in”.

But you may have missed my point on post 55 (no problem. I often need to be more clear in my questions).

I was asking if you are thinking good works flow from your supernatural faith.

And if you do, you are partially correct.

But our good works ALSO NECESSARILY flow from our grace and gift of . . . . charity.

And if your good works flow from a faith . . . . a faith to move mountains . . . but is not animated by charity . . . . your faith gets you nothing according to St. Paul.

This supernatural faith is good and it is NECESSARY.

But if this supernatural faith is unaccompanied by supernatural Charity, this necessary supernatural faith falls short of salvation.

So if you are saying your necessary good works MUST be animated by faith AND charity . . . I have no issue.

But if you are saying your necessary good works and “charity” all flows from supernatural faith only, I will take issue with that.

---

And by the way, Jimmy (“James”) Akin is not saying supernatural charity flows ONLY from faith, so although I enjoyed re-reading his article (read it many years ago too), Jimmy is NOT saying that supernatural charity flows exclusively from supernatural faith.

QUOTE:
Jimmy Akin . . . . Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 . . . . In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts. These virtues are given to each of the justified. . . .

And notice what Jimmy Akin ISN’T saying . . . .

QUOTE:
NOT Jimmy Akin . . . Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 . . . . . In common Catholic usage, faith is thus unconditional belief in what God says, hope is unconditional trust in God, and charity is unconditional love for God. When we are justified, God places ONLY places one of these virtues in our hearts, faith. This one virtue is given to each of the justified and hope and charity grow out of the faith we receive . . . .

And Akin is not saying this either:

QUOTE:
NOT Jimmy Akin . . . Third, Catholic theology has focused on the triad of faith, hope, and charity, which Paul lays great stress on and which is found throughout his writings, not just in 1 Corinthians 13:13 . . . . . **When we are justified, God places all three of these virtues in our hearts, but it is ONLY the “faith” portion and not the hope and charity that is necessary for our salvation.". ** . . . .

 

[Cathoholic]

Also.

I said on the last post:

QUOTE:
So if you are saying your necessary good works MUST be animated by faith AND charity . . . I have no issue.

But if you are saying your necessary good works and “charity” all flows from supernatural faith only, I will take issue with that.

That being said, once we receive God’s graces, we MUST COOPERATE (according to our state in life) with those graces.

We must - by free will - COOPERATE with the grace of God we are given.

We must work WITH Jesus . . . . lest we accept the grace of God in vain.

2nd CORINTHIANS 6:1 1 Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.

There is an element of free will in all of this.

 

[rcwitness]

this article at EWTN by Jimmy Akin brings up many good points:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm
it is a short read:

If you get a chance please look it over: I would like to discuss his points

I finished the article… very well done, I think. These are some excerpts I found important:
During the drafting of this document, the Protestant participants asked what kind of authority it would have in the Catholic Church, and the response given by Cardinal Ratzinger (who was the Catholic corresponding head of the joint commission) was that it would have considerable authority. The German Conference of Bishops is well-known in the Catholic Church for being very cautious and orthodox and thus the document would carry a great deal of weight even outside of Germany, where the Protestant Reformation started…

… I say this as a preface to noting that the commission concluded that canon 9 of Trent’s Decree on Justification is not applicable to modern Protestants (or at least those who say saving faith is Galatians 5 faith). This is important because canon 9 is the one dealing with the faith alone formula (and the one R.C. Sproul is continually hopping up and down about). It states:

If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.

The reason this is not applicable to modern Protestants5*is that Protestants (at least the good ones) do not hold the view being condemned in this canon…

So I agree a hundred percent with what Trent did. The existing usage of the term faith in connection with justification could not be overturned any more than the existing usage of the term God in connection with Jesus identity could be overturned.

What both communities need to do today, now that a different usage has been established in them, is learn to translate between each others languages. Protestants need to be taught that the Catholic formula salvation by faith, hope, and charity is equivalent to what they mean by faith alone. And Catholics need to be taught that (at least for the non-antinomians) the Protestant formula faith alone is equivalent to what they mean by faith, hope, and charity…

The fact faith is normally used by Catholics to refer to intellectual assent (as in Romans 14:22-23, 1 Corinthians 13:13, and James 2:14-26) is one reason Catholics do not commonly use the faith alone formula even though they agree with what (good) Protestants mean by it. The formula runs counter to the historic meaning of the term faith.

The other reason is that, frankly, the formula itself (though not what it is used to express) is flatly unbiblical. The phrase faith alone (Greek, pisteos monon), occurs exactly once in the Bible, and there it is rejected:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24)

How much of this do you think will actually produce healing among Christians? What would you like to discuss?

 

[rcwitness]

Alwayswill, if you don’t mind me asking: were are your beliefs personally in relationship to Calvinism, Arminianism, or other? If you don’t know, are wish to just express yourself just as yourself that 100% ok.

I think this is a fair question (request). It’s also like asking where someone receives Communion, and what do the people (from whos hands they receive Communion) believe and profess.

Also jane_doe, do you find yourself accepting the Catholic or Protestant line of reasoning, regarding Faith Alone? And in general, have you gained a lot of understanding and/or appreciation for the things Catholics or Protestants believe after being here at CAF sometime?

 

[alwayswill]

…

The other reason is that, frankly, the formula itself (though not what it is used to express) is flatly unbiblical. The phrase faith alone (Greek, pisteos monon), occurs exactly once in the Bible, and there it is rejected:

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. (Jas. 2:24)[/indent]
How much of this do you think will actually produce healing among Christians? What would you like to discuss?

Other Catholic apologetic authors have addressed that.

You Can Understand The Bible: A Practical And Illuminating Guide To Each Book In The Bible
By Peter Kreeft

Pages 291-292
amazon.com/You-Can-Unders…der_1586170457
quote>>>
Actually, James’ point is very clear and simple, it is not a contrast between faith and works but between a real faith, a faith that works, and** a fake faith**, one that does not. “Show me your faith apart from your works, and by my works will show you my faith.”

We do not see a living plant’s roots, only its fruits. Others cannot see your faith, for it is invisible.
They can see only your actions, which show your faith as a tulip flower shows you that a tulip bulb has taken root The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2: 21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith (Rom 4), is explained by looking at the context.

Paul’s **context **is the relationship between the believer and God, while James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works.
Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors.

A further explanation is that James means by “faith” only intellectual belief "
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder" (2:19).
But Paul means by “faith” (in Galatians and Romans) something more than belief. He means accepting Christ into your soul and thus into your life, where it produces good works as its fruit.

In more technical terms,
Paul is contrasting faith with law as a way to be justified,
while James is contrasting a faith without works with a faith that works as a way to be sanctified.
Paul is asking how to be saved;
James is asking how to be holy.
Paul is asking how to get to Heaven,
James is asking how to live on earth.

James also mentions ten other things that faith does **
(1) it endures sufferings and trials.
(2) it obeys the word of God that it hears,
(3) it overcomes favoritism and prejudice,
(4) it controls the tongue and gossip,
(5) it gives us wisdom,
(6) it separates us from the world, **
(7) it makes us submissive to God,
(8) it resists the devil,
(9) it puts us in God’s presence. and
(10) it waits patiently for Christ’s Second Coming,

James never teaches works vs. faith or works instead of faith. From beginning to end, the letter is a tribute to faith. but to a faith that works, like the one described in Hebrews 11…

end quote
:

So combining Akin’s and Kreeft’s

no Protestant ever claimed mere mental assent saves.
James is discussing mere mental assent compared to REAL faith.

The faith that is a gift from God is REAL faith

From the Vatican website

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

“25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works.
**But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it. **”​

Nothing merits justification; nothing before the gift of faith and nothing after the gift of faith.

 

[alwayswill]

Alwayswill, if you don’t mind me asking: were are your beliefs personally in relationship to Calvinism, Arminianism, or other? If you don’t know, are wish to just express yourself just as yourself that 100% ok.

It seems to me that the Reformed/Calvinism view on Soteriology best explains the whole council of Scripture.

Some examples of the Reformed Theology that I hold

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”)
5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

It is by Gods Holy Scripture alone, that teaches us that salvation is by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

(1) Christs death purchased eternal salvation;
(2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone;
(3) sinners cannot earn divine favor;
(4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation;
(5) eternal life is a gift of God;
(6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and
(7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

I agree with the points here at
gty.org/media/pdf/Lordship_Salvation.pdf

If your faith doesn’t change you then your faith doesn’t save you
or
If your faith didn’t change you then your faith didn’t save you

Imputed righteousness :
Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christs righteousness (crediting it to the believersaccount), whereas Roman Catholic theology emphasizes that God justifies in accord with an infused righteousness merited by Christ and maintained by the believers good works,

Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated. To most synergists, regeneration is a process that begins when a man responds to God’s initiative, repents, and begins the labor of loving God and his neighbor.
Monergists believe that regeneration takes place as a single act in which God regenerates a man from his fleshly state and, thus now enabled, a man can believe, and that he inevitably and invariably will do so.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Baptism

• Believers baptism by immersion is a public testimony of ones personal relationship with Jesus Christ (Acts 2:41). Therefore, salvation is a prerequisite to baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience, it pictures the work of Christ, and is significant in the Scriptures

 

[alwayswill]

…
I was asking if you are thinking good works flow from your supernatural faith.

And if you do, you are partially correct.

But our good works ALSO NECESSARILY flow from our grace and gift of . . . . charity.

And if your good works flow from a faith . . . . a faith to move mountains . . . but is not animated by charity . . . . your faith gets you nothing according to St. Paul.

This supernatural faith is good and it is NECESSARY.

But if this supernatural faith is unaccompanied by supernatural Charity, this necessary supernatural faith falls short of salvation.

So if you are saying your necessary good works MUST be animated by faith AND charity . . . I have no issue.

But if you are saying your necessary good works and “charity” all flows from supernatural faith only, I will take issue with that.

Lets see if you agree with this:

How hard is to to please God without Faith (REAL faith , not mental assent)?

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

So yes I am actually saying that good works and “charity” WITHOUT supernatural faith is NOT pleasing to God

“For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin”
Romans 14:23

Continuing on : it is impossible; ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for the gift of a real faith from God not to justify (save) and change the believer so that the desire to do good works flows out BECAUSE of the supernatural, life changing, saving faith.

 

[rcwitness]

**James also mentions ten other things that faith does **

 

[alwayswill]

alwayswill;14261262:

alwayswill, the point James was making (or rather God made through James) is that mere faith alone

does NOT accomplish these works. But that faith leads to these things if completed.

I disagree that was the point James was making:
I agree with what Kreeft said was the point James was making.

“Actually, James’ point is very clear and simple, it is not a contrast between faith and works but between a real faith, a faith that works, and a fake faith, one that does not.”

No sola fide Protestant believes a fake faith saves
No sola fide Protestant believes a real faith doesn’t save

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness;14261492:

I disagree that was the point James was making:
I agree with what Kreeft said was the point James was making.

“Actually, James’ point is very clear and simple, it is not a contrast between faith and works but between a real faith, a faith that works, and a fake faith, one that does not.”

No sola fide Protestant believes a fake faith saves

I don’t know how you just found a difference in what I just said.

Do you believe the Catholic faith properly Teaches Justification?

Do you believe a person can be Sanctified without being Justified?

 

[alwayswill]

alwayswill;14261514:

I don’t know how you just found a difference in what I just said.

Do you believe the Catholic faith properly Teaches Justification?

Do you believe a person can be Sanctified without being Justified?

Justification is a one time event
Sanctification is the process of become more holy, more Christ like.

it is impossible to Sanctified without being Justified first
All who are Justified will continue with Sanctification until they are Gloried at the end,

The chain of event cannot be broken
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

[jane_doe]

It seems to me that the Reformed/Calvinism view on Soteriology best explains the whole council of Scripture.

Some examples of the Reformed Theology that I hold

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”)
5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

“It is by God’s Holy Scripture alone, that teaches us that salvation is by Grace alone, through Faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.”

(1) Christ’s death purchased eternal salvation;
(2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone;
(3) sinners cannot earn divine favor;
(4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation;
(5) eternal life is a gift of God;
(6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and
(7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

I agree with the points here at
gty.org/media/pdf/Lordship_Salvation.pdf

If your faith doesn’t change you then your faith doesn’t save you
or
If your faith didn’t change you then your faith didn’t save you

Imputed righteousness :
“Justification is that step in salvation in which God declares the believer righteous. Protestant theology has emphasized that this includes the imputation of Christ’s righteousness (crediting it to the believer’s”account“), whereas Roman Catholic theology emphasizes that God justifies in accord with an infused righteousness merited by Christ and maintained by the believer’s good works,”

Monergism states that the regeneration of an individual is the work of God the Holy Spirit alone, as opposed to synergism, which, in its simplest form, argues that the human will cooperates with God’s grace in order to be regenerated. To most synergists, regeneration is a process that begins when a man responds to God’s initiative, repents, and begins the labor of loving God and his neighbor.
Monergists believe that regeneration takes place as a single act in which God regenerates a man from his fleshly state and, thus now enabled, a man can believe, and that he inevitably and invariably will do so.

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Baptism

• Believer’s baptism by immersion is a public testimony of one’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ (Acts 2:41). Therefore, salvation is a prerequisite to baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience, it pictures the work of Christ, and is significant in the Scriptures

Thank you for this thorough and informative answer. Your view point was making sense (no human action), but then the last paragraph on baptism seems very different as it relies on human action. Did I get that right?

 

[alwayswill]

Thank you for this thorough and informative answer. Your view point was making sense (no human action), but then the last paragraph on baptism seems very different as it relies on human action. Did I get that right?

The belief expressed is the baptism an act of obedience with no salvific effect.

 

[jane_doe]

Baptism

• Believer’s baptism by immersion is a public testimony of one’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ (Acts 2:41). Therefore, salvation is a prerequisite to baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience, it pictures the work of Christ, and is significant in the Scriptures

The belief expressed is the baptism an act of obedience with no salvific effect.

Oh I see, I misread the part I bolded backwards. That makes more sense.

 

[rcwitness]

rcwitness;14261525:

Justification is a one time event
Sanctification is the process of become more holy, more Christ like.

it is impossible to Sanctified without being Justified first
All who are Justified will continue with Sanctification until they are Gloried at the end,

The chain of event cannot be broken
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

We are told in Hebrews that one can be Sanctified, yet fall away through sin after.

Hebrews 10

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You believe that only real faith (alone) justifies and further sanctifies unto assurance of salvation.

The Church believes that we can have a faith that accepts and believes, and receives Sanctification, but does not accept the virtue of Charity, and so denies the faith that brought justification and even sanctification… and the last sate of that person is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[alwayswill]

alwayswill;14261531:

We are told in Hebrews that one can be Sanctified, yet fall away through sin after.

Hebrews 10

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries

. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You believe that only real faith (alone) justifies and further sanctifies unto assurance of salvation.

The Church believes that we can have a faith that accepts and believes, and receives Sanctification, but does not accept the virtue of Charity, and so denies the faith that brought justification and even sanctification… and the last sate of that person is worse than an unbeliever.

In What Sense Were They “Sanctified”?

Now this third description is very controversial. And I do not claim infallibility for my own interpretation. But I commend it to you as consistent with the rest of the book and the rest of Scripture, I believe. Some take it to mean that you can be truly born again and justified by faith, and on your way to heaven through a life of spiritual sanctification - and yet be finally lost and destroyed by forsaking the truth. Because it says here that these apostates had been “sanctified.”

Others say that the possibility raised here of sanctified people committing apostasy will, in fact, never happen, because those who are truly elect and born again will be kept from apostasy by the work of the Holy Spirit. So no sanctified people ever do, in fact, apostacize. And this prospect in Hebrews 10:26-31 never happens. The elect take heed to the warning and persevere in faith and holiness.

The first of these I think to be untenable in view of what this writer says elsewhere and what the rest of the New Testament teaches about the security of the believer in Christ. In Hebrews 3:14 he says, “For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end” - meaning that if we do not hold fast to the end, then we “had not become a partaker of Christ.” Failure to persevere in faith is not a sign of losing salvation but of never having been a partaker of Christ. And in this same chapter (10:14), he says, “By one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” In other words, there is a kind of true, spiritual sanctification that is sure evidence of being eternally perfected in God’s sight - perfected for all time. God’s justifying, perfecting work is not temporary. And the evidence that it is done, is that we are being truly made holy - sanctified.

So I conclude that the sanctification of verse 29 is not the same as the sanctification of verse 14. The one proves eternal perfection (verse 14) and the other proves great guilt after apostasy (verse 29). **What is this fruitless sanctification? It seems to be the religious separation and outward purification that often happens when a person becomes part of the visible church. They come under the influence of truth in preaching and teaching. They come under the influence of love among the saints. They come under the influence of the ordinances and even eat and drink the sacred emblems of Christ’s body and blood. They feel the blowing of God’s Spirit of grace and taste his wooing and winning influences. And in all of this, they are visibly set apart from the world - sanctified the way the people of Israel was sanctified among the nations, even though many of them were faithless. And all of this gracious influence was purchased by the blood of Christ, so that verse 29 says, it was indeed “by the blood of the covenant” that these hypocrites were sanctified. **
-John Piper

 

[rcwitness]

So I conclude that the sanctification of verse 29 is not the same as the sanctification of verse 14. The one proves eternal perfection (verse 14) and the other proves great guilt after apostasy (verse 29). **What is this fruitless sanctification? It seems to be the religious separation and outward purification that often happens when a person becomes part of the visible church. They come under the influence of truth in preaching and teaching. They come under the influence of love among the saints. They come under the influence of the ordinances and even eat and drink the sacred emblems of Christ’s body and blood. They feel the blowing of God’s Spirit of grace and taste his wooing and winning influences. And in all of this, they are visibly set apart from the world - sanctified the way the people of Israel was sanctified among the nations, even though many of them were faithless. And all of this gracious influence was purchased by the blood of Christ, so that verse 29 says, it was indeed “by the blood of the covenant” that these hypocrites were sanctified. **
-John Piper

I can agree with this. It is when someone believes to a certain level, or has faith that is vain. They know the truth and seek its benefit, but they do not allow faith to bring the charity of Christ into the heart and effect conversion. Yet it brings one to the table of the Lord who offers the means of Sanctification. Piper is right, it’s hypocrisy and betrayal. This is why such a person is not considered an unbeliever, but a believer who does not allow faith to be completed by love in themselves. So there is a received Sanctification (through the Blessed Sacrament) but there is a denial of His work in the conversion of heart.

 

[Cathoholic]

Alwayswill. I mentioned about faith in 1st Corinthians 13 gets you nothing if unaccompanied by charity.

You replied (among other things):

QUOTE:
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

But this is irrelevant to this discussion. Why?

Because Catholics ALREADY AFFIRM the NEED for faith OK?

As a matter of fact, I already explicitly mentioned this.

This from my post 55 (with bold added) . . . .

QUOTE:

You need faith to be sure. . . . .

And I said it again in post 13 not only asserting it, but referencing the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well (again bold and now ul added).

QUOTE:

We Catholics AFFIRM the need for faith.

We Catholics also AFFIRM there is a human natural dimension to faith, but also a supernatural GRACE dimension too! (See CCC 153 and 154)

And then I reaffirmed the NEED for faith later in post 13 as well saying (again my emphasis added) . . . . .

QUOTE:

Yet they (some Protestant Sola Fide adherents) see for themselves “faith” correctly in a natural realm AND a supernatural realm (which is correct but incomplete), ADD the word “ALONE” to faith when “ALONE” is not in the Scriptures, and DENY the salvific existence of Grace WORKS.

That’s what I have a problem with. The unscriptural nature of sola fide.

Sola fide is a tradition of men that makes void the commandments of God.

You went on to say . . . .

QUOTE:
So yes I am actually saying that good works and “charity” WITHOUT supernatural faith is NOT pleasing to God

But that is not what I asked.

I asked if supernatural faith without supernatural charity is adequate for salvation.

And St. Paul says its not.
The Bible says its not.
And I say it is not.

But YOUR reply says even this scenario is an impossibility (bold and ul mine).

QUOTE:
it is impossible; ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE for the gift of a real faith from God not to justify (save) and change the believer

Yet St. Paul says if you have faith to move mountains, but have not charity you . . . . . gain NOTHING.

That’s not me talking Alwayswill. That is St. Paul.

And this routine about the faith in 1st Corinthians 13 being a “fake faith” that you seemed to intimate elsewhere, is non-sense.

St. Paul says this is faith to move MOUNTAINS. Now I agree, this may be a figurative expression or it may be real. But one thing it is not, is it is NOT a “fake faith”.

1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . . 13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

And notice what St. Paul DOESN’T say . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 but a phantom verse 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, why this would be ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE.

And St. Paul doesn’t say this either . . . . . .

NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 13:2-3, 13 Another phantom verse 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. . . . . 13 So faith, hope, love don’t abide this kind of faith, because this is merely a “fake faith”.

No!

St. Paul tells you in this context to ABIDE by this faith!

So we KNOW its not a “fake faith” he is talking about here (hopefully Alwayswill. You don’t think St. Paul commands us to “abide” by a “fake faith”).

He wouldn’t do that if the context of 1st Corinthians 13 concerned a “fake faith”.

• St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 talks about the real possibility of faith without charity (and it isn’t pretty).
• St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 13 talks about how we still should “ABIDE” by this faith (“abide these three”) . . . so we KNOW its not a “fake faith”.
• St. Paul says charity is more important than faith. St. Paul explicitly says the virtue of “charity” is greater than the necessary virtue of “faith”–faith to move mountains no less! (“the greatest of these is charity” or “the greatest of these is love”)

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Alwayswill. You said . . .

Some examples of the Reformed Theology that I hold

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”) . . .

Unfortunately Alwayswill. You are not only holding fast to traditions of men. You are holding fast to traditions of men that nullify the commandments of God.