A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Richard Kastner,
Would you clarify/explain your statement, “Predestination is our choice.”
- Status
Would you clarify/explain your statement, “Predestination is our choice.”
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Byzantine-Wolf, that was a very good post and in correct context, with alot of depth and perspective. Thanks…
I was also reflecting on the shorter phrase that Anna brought forward…You know how it is as well when you are praying and then some times, just a short phrase of so many words will stand out at you, and immerse…contemplative prayer in action…and that it goes down and you reflect deeper…and see things in yourself that need very subtle direction…and the Holy Spirit then works and gives you a teachable moment…
As a Catholic, that phrase has stood out to me a few times in my life…and I see it as being in communion with Our Lord, especially after reception of the Eucharist…the Lord also talks about heaven as being a banquet table…
Anyway, thanks again…great work!
I was also reflecting on the shorter phrase that Anna brought forward…You know how it is as well when you are praying and then some times, just a short phrase of so many words will stand out at you, and immerse…contemplative prayer in action…and that it goes down and you reflect deeper…and see things in yourself that need very subtle direction…and the Holy Spirit then works and gives you a teachable moment…
As a Catholic, that phrase has stood out to me a few times in my life…and I see it as being in communion with Our Lord, especially after reception of the Eucharist…the Lord also talks about heaven as being a banquet table…
Anyway, thanks again…great work!
C
crazzeto
Guest
Yeah, it doesn’t make a lick of sense as predestination quite clearly puts the choice out of our control… More over, this posting would tend to speak of double predestination, which of course is condemed.
I won’t pretend to be an expert on predestination, frankly it’s something I haven’t put a lot of thought in, perhaps because it’s easy to go cross eyed trying to keep all the variables in check. With regard to that subject, I guess my own best personal understanding is simply that we are predestined in so far as God already knows what we will do… Before we are even formed in the womb.
This predestination would not negate our free will, rather at least to my mind it is ultimatly an acknowlegement of our free will. Sort of like, I just put food in my dogs food dish and into their cages with them. Khan’s (my German Shepard / Border Colly) free choice will to be eat it ravenously all at once. Concetta’s (my mutt) will be to slowly eat perhaps as much as half overnight licking the food out of the dish (and into her mouth, into cage, on to carpet)…
I already know what they’re going to do, but it’s not like I’m making them do it.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I think that’s the understanding that the predestination is the availability of the choice itself, rather than the choice-making. The problem is, mankind is living in a state of rejection. We do not seek God (Rom 3:9-12), and are by nature children of wrath (Eph 2:3). Man is not an automaton, but neither is he able, of his own accord, to follow God. When God calls on Him, the man is then enabled to come to God (John 6:65). As I said, if Christ was simply leaving it up to us to open the door…no one would open it.
R
Richard_Kastner
Guest
God knows the end from the beginning.
Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
That knowledge is reflected in the word predestination. On a personal level God knows what our destiny will be, but no matter what that destiny is God affords to each one of us the same opportunity to come to Him.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The thing that we have to keep in mind, difficult for us sinners at times, is that we are not God. We do not know the end from the beginning. So, the only way that we can assure the destiny that God wants for us is to be obedient and follow the guidelines that He has laid out for us in His word.
Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Byzantine_Wolf
thanks for the reply
Then what is the zeal that prevents “lukewarm”? Certainly, it is not wrath, or anger and frustration. And certainly it is not want, or wantonness.
C
catsrus
Guest
:ehh: …and a presbyterian shall lead them (down the wrong road)
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
Um, catsrus, that’s not me saying that. 
Careful or the mods will think you’re changing people’s original posts in your quotes, which is against forum rules.
What builds our strength is our growth towards God, which comes about solely by the ability of God to render it possible. The natural man cannot comprehend this because he despises the things of God, but for those of us in the Lord we relish the struggle. Christianity is in many ways one of the few religions where we are actively “seeking to struggle” - not in the sense that we are purposefully hurting ourselves, but that we relish in the fact that the way of God is hard for those coming out of the world. Life wasn’t meant to be easy…but then again, our life is but a flicker of light in the span of time.
Careful or the mods will think you’re changing people’s original posts in your quotes, which is against forum rules.If by “prevents lukewarm” you mean keeps us from being lukewarm at all, I think it’s nonexistent. We are all lukewarm at one point in our life as believers. I was lukewarm at one point in my own life, as a young Christian. That’s part of our sanctification.
What builds our strength is our growth towards God, which comes about solely by the ability of God to render it possible. The natural man cannot comprehend this because he despises the things of God, but for those of us in the Lord we relish the struggle. Christianity is in many ways one of the few religions where we are actively “seeking to struggle” - not in the sense that we are purposefully hurting ourselves, but that we relish in the fact that the way of God is hard for those coming out of the world. Life wasn’t meant to be easy…but then again, our life is but a flicker of light in the span of time.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Not according to the Lord. “I want you to be zealous” meaning there is another side of us – we can be zealous. It is the option that we choose – to be lukewarm or to be zealous. Jesus exalts us to be zealous – the zealous person would by the grace of God able to open that door.
While it is true that God plays a major part in our growth, for nothing significant happen without the participation of God, the journey of growth is made possible by our decision too. We decide whether we want to grow, whether we accept the grace of God to grow – it is still our choice. That’s why – he stands there and knocks. Do we hear the knocking and if we do, are we willing to open that door?
Quite an assumption there. It may be true for some but certainly it is not the rule.
Man only cannot comprehend how the grace of God works but he certainly knows his own weakness and strength in his response to the Lord’s calling. He knows who he is for the most part; what he struggle to do, he ask God to do for him if that’s the path he wants to take.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
To Reuben J:
I think you misunderstand my comment regarding being lukewarm. I’m not denying a Christian’s inability to be zealous. What I was responding to was that at some point in our spiritual life, we get lukewarm, either through a trial or early on when we are spiritual children. If you want to say “not according to the Lord” - well, Christ’s address to the church in Laodicea (which again is the target audience here, as I outlined in my first post) says that they have become lukewarm, and turns into a call for them to cease being as such.
In this regard, I think you also come to another misunderstanding of the passage cited in the OP when you repeat that it is about Christ knocking on the door of an unbeliever (I assume you take that position) and expecting Him to open. That isn’t the context. Christ, at His return, is knocking on the door of a supposed Christian, and if they are prepared then He will go in and dine with them - that is, they will have their salvation. The context is when Christ returns, not that Christ is offering everyone a chance to become Christian. Again, I outlined that in my first post.
As for the disagreement that the Christian life is a difficult one…well, that’s been known for many, many centuries. I think you again completely misunderstand what I was trying to say there. Therefore when you say “what he struggle to do, he ask God to do for him if that’s the path he wants to take,” I agree to a large degree. What I was simply reiterating was that the Christian life is not an easy one. The world is pleasure, and our body, in its sinful state, seeks after those pleasures - the war within us that the apostle Paul talks about so eloquently. Christ and His apostles were not “seeker sensitive” people, and they didn’t seek to dumb down the gospel so that it was more appealing to people. The Word of Faith and Emerging movements, which strive to make Christianity appealing to those who want material wealth or don’t want to sacrifice a great deal, move away from the gospel in that regard. Again, it is not that a Christian is unable to deal with the problems ahead, for his strength will come from God - the issue is that to the sinful world, the way of Christianity appears foolish and unnecessarily harsh. I think G.K. Chesterton put it best when he said: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”
I think you misunderstand my comment regarding being lukewarm. I’m not denying a Christian’s inability to be zealous. What I was responding to was that at some point in our spiritual life, we get lukewarm, either through a trial or early on when we are spiritual children. If you want to say “not according to the Lord” - well, Christ’s address to the church in Laodicea (which again is the target audience here, as I outlined in my first post) says that they have become lukewarm, and turns into a call for them to cease being as such.
In this regard, I think you also come to another misunderstanding of the passage cited in the OP when you repeat that it is about Christ knocking on the door of an unbeliever (I assume you take that position) and expecting Him to open. That isn’t the context. Christ, at His return, is knocking on the door of a supposed Christian, and if they are prepared then He will go in and dine with them - that is, they will have their salvation. The context is when Christ returns, not that Christ is offering everyone a chance to become Christian. Again, I outlined that in my first post.
As for the disagreement that the Christian life is a difficult one…well, that’s been known for many, many centuries. I think you again completely misunderstand what I was trying to say there. Therefore when you say “what he struggle to do, he ask God to do for him if that’s the path he wants to take,” I agree to a large degree. What I was simply reiterating was that the Christian life is not an easy one. The world is pleasure, and our body, in its sinful state, seeks after those pleasures - the war within us that the apostle Paul talks about so eloquently. Christ and His apostles were not “seeker sensitive” people, and they didn’t seek to dumb down the gospel so that it was more appealing to people. The Word of Faith and Emerging movements, which strive to make Christianity appealing to those who want material wealth or don’t want to sacrifice a great deal, move away from the gospel in that regard. Again, it is not that a Christian is unable to deal with the problems ahead, for his strength will come from God - the issue is that to the sinful world, the way of Christianity appears foolish and unnecessarily harsh. I think G.K. Chesterton put it best when he said: “Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.”
R
Reuben_J
Guest
I was commenting on your reply to another poster (DPMartin); and in that case perhaps you are misunderstanding him. Maybe it was expressed differently but certainly ‘lukewarmness’ can be ‘prevented’ by ‘zealousness’ thus negating your contention that it is ‘if this were the case, man does not want to open the door. Christ comes knocking and we tell Him, “Go away!” Either Christ is a victim of fatalism and is defeated easily by a door, or He knows His sheep (John 10:14) and has preserved them (John 6:39) so that, when the hour comes, they will open that door and have salvation’.
I understood it s a believer – people who already have in contact with the Lord. I would not believe however that the Lord does not knock on the door of the hearts of unbelievers, only that the passage mentioned was about Christians of Laodicea – so yes, it is for believers.
I disagree if you mean this to apply to Christ’s return. Please correct me if I misunderstand you here.
Christ is constantly knocking on that doors and it’s not when he ‘returns’. If that is so then it would not concur with the fact that he is a Good Shepherd always searching for the lost; he won’t be the searching God then unlike the God who seek Adam, who seek the lost sheep.
Even though we are Christians, there is no guarantee that we are saved until we meet the Lord. Thus in between when we go astray or reject him, it’s the Lord who seeks to bolster our growth so that we know and experience him again.
Agreed absolutely.
I am not sure about these and what they are.
Agreed and I think I said as much. What I disagree is that the statement is not conclusive. There are people who are drawn to Christianity and to spirituality. Consider that.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Byzantine_Wolf
thanks for the reply
What struggle is there in the commandment “Let there be Light”? To let there be, is not a struggle. And consider, Jesus is the Light of men. When Abel received God’s respect for him and his sacrifice, did Abel struggle? Or did Cain have a problem with that? And both men certainly had desire for God’s acceptance of their sacrifices. Or what struggle was there in Abram’s case, his father was a maker of idols. But when it came time, the Voice of the Lord came to Abram and basically said pack your stuff. Where is the struggle in that?
If you struggle with God’s Choice, therein may be the problem.
Men struggle to pay their bills, that they agreed to pay. Nations struggle against nations to the point of war. What is your point in saying that christians relish the struggle? There is no struggle in letting there be. Since Jesus Christ is the victor, then surly we are to surrender our lives for His. A simple letting it be. It may be true that one might have difficultly in knowing and understanding, but he who makes himself available to the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit, on a daily bases and listens, receive his Daily Bread.
The success of the sleeper is to awake in the Light and repent. Why does a man awake, but to receive of life amongst the living. And life is not of the clay vessel, but the Life that is in it, that is of God.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
To Reuben J:
In regards to my discussion on lukewarm, I think you’re connecting two unrelated things. You’re taking my discussion regarding lukewarm in the theology/faith of many Christians, and then attaching it to my explanation of man’s state of rejecting God. Those are two separate discussions, therefore I can see where the confusion is coming from!
In regards to Christ knocking on the door of unbelievers, I don’t see that any where in the passage - the context is only for people within the church, as you yourself said. The context is exactly the same as the parables in the Gospels of the Master returning to His servants: those who are true servants will be ready and be rewarded, those who are lazy, false servants will not be ready and be punished. If you can show me where in my exegesis I inserted this, feel free to show me.
On the same note as this, you say that you disagree that it is speaking about Christ’s return. Once again, I exegeted the passage to show how I came to that conclusion, therefore please show me where I went wrong and why I went the wrong route. I would love to see your own exegesis and compare notes.
Regarding your question:
I think you’re taking isolated cases and not realizing the bigger picture. King David was said to be a man after God’s heart, yet he struggled against sin (and often succumbed to it). Just read through the psalms - the psalmist (David) is constantly lamenting his struggle against sin and a feeling of isolation from God. Some of the greatest prophets have felt at times isolated by God: Elijah at one point felt so exasperated by his situation that he asked God to kill him; the apostle Paul once wrote that his troubles were so bad that at one point he despaired even of life itself. Even our Lord, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt in His human will and human nature the fear and trepidation of what was about to unfold in the days to come, and asked God that if it was possible to let the cup pass from Him. At the same time, our Lord prayed that God’s will be done - and this is what the believer always prays.
I must therefore disagree that the religious life is not a struggle - but at the same time I am not saying that God abandons His flock, nor am I saying that God does not give men strength to endure. He does all this and more, even if we, like Elijah or David, do not know it at the time. However, to say that the Christian life is all glory and no troubles is like saying military service is all duty and no danger.
In regards to my discussion on lukewarm, I think you’re connecting two unrelated things. You’re taking my discussion regarding lukewarm in the theology/faith of many Christians, and then attaching it to my explanation of man’s state of rejecting God. Those are two separate discussions, therefore I can see where the confusion is coming from!
In regards to Christ knocking on the door of unbelievers, I don’t see that any where in the passage - the context is only for people within the church, as you yourself said. The context is exactly the same as the parables in the Gospels of the Master returning to His servants: those who are true servants will be ready and be rewarded, those who are lazy, false servants will not be ready and be punished. If you can show me where in my exegesis I inserted this, feel free to show me.
On the same note as this, you say that you disagree that it is speaking about Christ’s return. Once again, I exegeted the passage to show how I came to that conclusion, therefore please show me where I went wrong and why I went the wrong route. I would love to see your own exegesis and compare notes.
Regarding your question:
- The Word of Faith movement is a group of extreme Charismatics (although most Charismatics are well rounded people) who are big into the name-it-and-claim-it theology, as well as the prosperity gospel, etc. Just turn on TBN any time of day and you’ll find the Word of Faith leaders and personalities.
- The Emerging/Emergent Church is a group of churches and their leaders (Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, etc.) who were a reaction to the extreme modernist thinking in some sections of Evangelicalism. The problem is they swung to the other extreme, and started getting big on the “seeker sensitive” movement and teaching post-modernism. Most of them teach absolute heresies such as universalism, the intermingling of holism with Christianity, Christ is just a good example, etc.
I think you’re taking isolated cases and not realizing the bigger picture. King David was said to be a man after God’s heart, yet he struggled against sin (and often succumbed to it). Just read through the psalms - the psalmist (David) is constantly lamenting his struggle against sin and a feeling of isolation from God. Some of the greatest prophets have felt at times isolated by God: Elijah at one point felt so exasperated by his situation that he asked God to kill him; the apostle Paul once wrote that his troubles were so bad that at one point he despaired even of life itself. Even our Lord, in the Garden of Gethsemane, felt in His human will and human nature the fear and trepidation of what was about to unfold in the days to come, and asked God that if it was possible to let the cup pass from Him. At the same time, our Lord prayed that God’s will be done - and this is what the believer always prays.
I must therefore disagree that the religious life is not a struggle - but at the same time I am not saying that God abandons His flock, nor am I saying that God does not give men strength to endure. He does all this and more, even if we, like Elijah or David, do not know it at the time. However, to say that the Christian life is all glory and no troubles is like saying military service is all duty and no danger.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Byanzantine_Wolf:
Byanzantine_Wolf:
Rev 3:20 speaks of the present or the near future but certainly nothing to indicate it’ll be the end time scenario. If that is so it will be in conflict with Jesus advice to “I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent” which is spoken in the present tense and not a message that had been given in the past.
The advice is given now to address the situation of the Christians faith in Laodecia for them to follow – it is therefore their choice whether to follow it or not. Those who comply are those who are opening themselves to the grace of God; those who open the doors.
I cannot see how V20 suddenly makes a leapt into Christ’s coming without giving the opportunity for V18 to be followed first. Jesus ends by saying, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."V22
Thus it is also not in the context of parable of the Master returning to His servants (LK 12:42-48).
Thank you for this information; it’s something I have no information about.
Byanzantine_Wolf:
Byanzantine_Wolf:
**“Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me”. **
Rev 3:20 speaks of the present or the near future but certainly nothing to indicate it’ll be the end time scenario. If that is so it will be in conflict with Jesus advice to “I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent” which is spoken in the present tense and not a message that had been given in the past.
The advice is given now to address the situation of the Christians faith in Laodecia for them to follow – it is therefore their choice whether to follow it or not. Those who comply are those who are opening themselves to the grace of God; those who open the doors.
I cannot see how V20 suddenly makes a leapt into Christ’s coming without giving the opportunity for V18 to be followed first. Jesus ends by saying, “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."V22
Thus it is also not in the context of parable of the Master returning to His servants (LK 12:42-48).
D
DPMartin
Guest
Byzantine_Wolf
thanks for the reply
Maybe this is generalized enough for you?
The struggle to keep what you have, or get what you need, or even stay alive in the flesh, in circumstances beyond one’s control, is not a struggle unique to christianity. The sun shines on all and it rains on all. This horse dump of “I am a chirstian, so I am suffering or struggling because I am a christain”, ain’t getting it. Nothing more then self delusional importance, because one calls himself something (christain). And in the cases of King David and Elijah both where or always dealing with circumstances beyond their control. Real situations, that where beyond their control, that the Lord their God brought them through. Consider, every human being that ever walked the planet or will walk the planet will experience death, but Jesus Christ who experienced such do to bearing the reason for it (sin) did not have a problem with remaining alive, did He? in the Garden of Gethsemane it was described and shown to us that to drink the cup the Lord Jesus spoke of was the only way that the Will of God could be satisfied, and fulfilled for mankind. (Note we are aware of this in the Garden of Gethsemane.)
The Lord our God doesn’t have staying alive issues. He doesn’t have the need for anything in order to be, nor does He have problems that would keep Him from fulfilling His Word to His satisfaction.
What is unique is the Presence of the Lord their God with those He is with. Who is an Almighty and living God. Who gives them solution to their request in His Presence with them. Who tells them what to do and God does the rest, to make it so. The Living God is about the business of Living, in His Peace and Good Will toward men.
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
To Reuben J:
I’m a little confused. You again confirm that this is Christ speaking only to believers or supposed believers, and not unbelievers. That’s my point, though - Christ is speaking to believers (the church in Laodicea), and those who would take it to mean unbelievers should let Christ into their heart are missing the context, or are simply taking one verse, isolating it, and spreading it out to a meaning that it was never intended to have. You also say that it’s not in the same context as the Master returning parables by saying it’s in the present tense. Yes, it’s spoken of as if in the present tense, but it’s a warning of a future condition, or consequence. This is why v. 20 is followed by v. 21, which although also spoken of in present tense is also speaking of something that can only happen in the future.
Incidentally, Greek scholar Daniel Wallace recently wrote about this very verse, amazingly enough.
The second assumption is that εισελεύσομαι πρό means ‘come into.’ Such an assumption is based on a less than careful reading of the English text. The ASV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, for example, all correctly render it ‘come in to.’ (Note the space between the prepositions.) The idea of ‘come into’ would be expressed with είς as the independent preposition and would suggest a penetration into the person (thus, spawning the idea of entering into one’s heart). However, spatially πρό means toward, not into. In all eight instances of εισοέρχομαι πρό in the NT, the meaning is ‘come in toward/before a person’ (i.e., enter a building, house, room, etc., so as to be in the presence of someone), never penetration into the person himself/herself. In some instances, such a view would not only be absurd, but inappropriate (cf. Mark 6:25; 15:43; Luke 1:28; Acts 10:3; 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8).
What, then, is this verse is affirming? First, it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly “received Christ into their hearts” without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation. Second, as far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. Either way, it is not a verse about salvation at all, for the Laodiceans were already saved. source]
I’m a little confused. You again confirm that this is Christ speaking only to believers or supposed believers, and not unbelievers. That’s my point, though - Christ is speaking to believers (the church in Laodicea), and those who would take it to mean unbelievers should let Christ into their heart are missing the context, or are simply taking one verse, isolating it, and spreading it out to a meaning that it was never intended to have. You also say that it’s not in the same context as the Master returning parables by saying it’s in the present tense. Yes, it’s spoken of as if in the present tense, but it’s a warning of a future condition, or consequence. This is why v. 20 is followed by v. 21, which although also spoken of in present tense is also speaking of something that can only happen in the future.
Incidentally, Greek scholar Daniel Wallace recently wrote about this very verse, amazingly enough.
The second assumption is that εισελεύσομαι πρό means ‘come into.’ Such an assumption is based on a less than careful reading of the English text. The ASV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, for example, all correctly render it ‘come in to.’ (Note the space between the prepositions.) The idea of ‘come into’ would be expressed with είς as the independent preposition and would suggest a penetration into the person (thus, spawning the idea of entering into one’s heart). However, spatially πρό means toward, not into. In all eight instances of εισοέρχομαι πρό in the NT, the meaning is ‘come in toward/before a person’ (i.e., enter a building, house, room, etc., so as to be in the presence of someone), never penetration into the person himself/herself. In some instances, such a view would not only be absurd, but inappropriate (cf. Mark 6:25; 15:43; Luke 1:28; Acts 10:3; 11:3; 16:40; 17:2; 28:8).
What, then, is this verse is affirming? First, it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly “received Christ into their hearts” without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation. Second, as far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. Either way, it is not a verse about salvation at all, for the Laodiceans were already saved. source]
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Well, let’s just clarify this. The Rev 3 passage mentioned was directed to the Christians of Laodicea. They being Christians and therefore believers.
My comment that Jesus can call non-believers digresses and that confuses you; and should be in a very objective discussion on a specific Biblical passage. Sorry about that.
To me Rev 3:20 is clear that it’s not when Christ return. The whole of Rev 3:15-22 is merely a warning, an exhortation to the Laodiceans and specifically addressing their situation at that material time. Jesus was saying, ‘ … do this and you will get this … ‘. That could happen within their life span.
Again I emphasize – it is totally unbecoming of Jesus to say ‘ … do this …’ but without giving that to happen he fast forward to end time. The invitation to ‘sup with you’ is not meant for end time but rather now and then when they hear his word and willing to open the door.
The grammar used is important if you want to scrutinize the essence of the message. I would not dwell on it too much but since it has come to close scrutiny, the grammar does make a difference in the interpretation.
In Lk 12:42-48, the master returns to see how his manager has managed his estate which was assigned to him. The performance of the manager is assessed and he will get his reward or the consequence. Notice that the manager is assigned a specific task on which his performance on this task will determine the outcome of his judgment. Thus he is given the time span to perform on the task given.
In Rev mentioned, the message was given through evangelist John, a warning and an exhortation for the present day Laodecians. The message would be for them to act on. Here is the distinction – if they act on this message, Jesus would come in. I use the word grace – God’s grace would be opened to them so that they can carry out the life as required of them. So it is now and then, not when Christ returns. Jesus did not say when he returns.
This interpretation is in the strictest sense of what the said passage means. Looking at the whole Bible context, I would like to see the image of Jesus as the Good Shepherd or the scene where he dined with tax collectors and the phrase, ‘it’s not the well that need the doctor but the sick’. Jesus comes for such as those and the image of him knocking at the door surely not far from this understanding – those who hear him one way or the other; not necessarily they already being Christians – Jesus came for such as these.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
Rev 3:20-22 (NIV)
20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 21To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
I guess I did not address this in the above post.
You might be struck by, **‘I will give the right to sit with me on my throne’ – a situation only in the heavenly kingdom. Considering that is so, then you got a point – it is when Christ returns. But then again he said, “I will …” **meaning in the future.
In v. 20, he will come in if anyone opens the door. The ‘he will’ is **conditioned **to the opening of the door. Thus it is not necessarily when he returns but if they ‘open the door’ then and now, and then and now he will come in.
As a side note - I guess to me it is not really that important whether it is end time or not. Even if I go along with you that it’s when Jesus returns, which I won’t, it does not exclude the factr that Jesus can come in to the door of our hearts when we are still living. This is the beauty of a Christian God - he is Emmanuel, God with us. He is with us physically. Catholics would experience this tangibly in the Eucharist where they are in full communion with Jesus. So the fact of Jesus coming into our house through the door that we open is something real, then and now.
J
Janet1983
Guest
I am probably going to be getting fire from both Protestants and Catholics for my response on these questions, but oh well…
I’d ask what does this mean?
Well it’s not the door of my heart. My heart doesn’t have a door and it is taken completely out of context.
This statement can be found in a letter to a church and it is only logical to assume that this congregation is meant (as well as any other congregation today).
The Lord told us the following:
“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”
This poignant letter to the church in Laodicea was His knocking on the door of the church. Christ was seeking to enter His church that bore His name, but lacked a single true believer. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and respond in saving faith He would enter the church.
He is standing at the door and knocks. Are we going to invite Him into our midst? Are we going to truly gather in His name?
Are we going to kindle false fires on our altars or will fire come down from heaven? Can these dead bones live?
What does it mean to me?
To me it means nothing more and nothing less than this: Will I worship Him? Truly worship Him? Will I do so or am I putting up a show? Do I look and act like a good Christian or will I be a true believer, follower and even a slave of the Lord Jesus Christ?
If everybody in my church was like me, would Christ be among us?
This is a very serious question to ask and it takes reflection and the help of God to figure this one out. If everybody in my church was like me… would Christ be among us?
Does my life reflect Him? Does my worship reflect Him?
Would we be kindling false fires upon our altar?
Can these dead bones live?
If we are without Christ we are dead. Dead in our sins and false in our worship.
I am nothing and I don’t deserve anything but His wrath. I deserve nothing but eternal torments. Nothing more. I was a vile God-hating criminal. I broke every law God has ever given. I don’t deserve anything but hell. I sinned against an infinitely holy God. I insulted the most glorious being in the entire universe and I didn’t do it just once. I did it over and over again. I didn’t do anything but sinning! I didn’t do anything else! I deserve hell and I deserve only that. If God would execute perfect justice there would be no moderation, no mercy.
But he saved me!
I don’t have anything apart from Him! He saved me! He bought me with His blood. He paid the price and He saved me!
All I do and all I have is for His glory alone. His glory, not mine.
What else can there be said? He saved me! He took this wretched creature that I was and he saved me!
Everything I have I owe to Him, so why should I hold anything back? He saved me and that is more than I could ever have expected or earned.
I give everything. Everything to God I freely give.
I trust that the answer would be yes. Not because of what I am and not because of what I’ve done, but because of who He is and because of what He has done. He has brought me to life even though I was dead. If it is God’s will these dead bones can live.
If it is God’s will we will be declaring His name and worship Him alone. Then fire will come down from heaven and He will be among us.
If it is God’s will we will respond and He will enter and be in our midst and we will worship Him. Then He will be our God and we will be His people.
What is your response?
That was my response, but let me go a little deeper than I already did. I would ask just this one thing of Him:
“Lord, make me like Your Son.”
This is probably the most drastic request I could give as it entangles anything short of being crucified. My will is to serve Him in everything I do and to have Him on my mind at any given moment of the day, thanking Him for everything good He bestows upon me and trusting Him with all of my heart in every trial and tribulation I encounter. That is my sincere wish and this is my response.
May He not have to tell us that He is standing at the door. May He be in our midst wherever we gather to give Him the glory.
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