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ralphinal
Guest
As an aside, I did not know you were a she, either. Sorry if I called you a he.
It does not matter, though. Women can be as wrong as men
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It does not matter, though. Women can be as wrong as men
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Why am I guessing it was King James?
So have you decided the real question yet?
btw - in context the passage means following Mosaic Law is not good enough, in and of itself
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Ruthie
Guest
Hi, Brit.
My problem with the way you are interpreting this passage is that it removes it from the rest of the Bible. It’s like someone looking at a mulberry, and deciding that a mulberry tree is squishy and sticky. Since one cannot see the trunk, there is no trunk; since one cannot see the leaves, there are no leaves.
What’s the next verse?
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 RSV)
I would say this shows us that we are meant to do good works; that it is part and parcel of our salvation. But these works come from God, and we are His instruments.
To me, and other Catholics, to refuse to do good works is to disobey God, and thus lose His grace.
I am a convert. One reason for this was that, as I studied the Bible with different “Sola Scriptura” people, I found different interpretations of the Bible’s meaning, and I found many individual verses that seemed to contradict themselves. But Christ said, “Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.”
John 17:11 (RSV)
I began to think that the Bible should be read as a whole, and that if we did this, there would be no contradictions. The only faith I found with that attitude was Catholicism, and I’m here to stay.
God bless you,
Ruthie
My problem with the way you are interpreting this passage is that it removes it from the rest of the Bible. It’s like someone looking at a mulberry, and deciding that a mulberry tree is squishy and sticky. Since one cannot see the trunk, there is no trunk; since one cannot see the leaves, there are no leaves.
What’s the next verse?
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:10 RSV)
I would say this shows us that we are meant to do good works; that it is part and parcel of our salvation. But these works come from God, and we are His instruments.
To me, and other Catholics, to refuse to do good works is to disobey God, and thus lose His grace.
I am a convert. One reason for this was that, as I studied the Bible with different “Sola Scriptura” people, I found different interpretations of the Bible’s meaning, and I found many individual verses that seemed to contradict themselves. But Christ said, “Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.”
John 17:11 (RSV)
I began to think that the Bible should be read as a whole, and that if we did this, there would be no contradictions. The only faith I found with that attitude was Catholicism, and I’m here to stay.
God bless you,
Ruthie
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
did you mean James 2 ?:
From King James :
I]Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 **In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. **
or the Catholic bible
6 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
How a scripture reader dismiss that?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I thought you could read english.
I told you what it says. We are saved by the Grace of God. Period.
Our own works mean nothing without the Grace of God. Period.
Faith means nothing without the Grace of God. Period.
This Grace comes to use through the death and resurrection of Jesus once we become part of the Body of Christ.
Not to be picky 
- but that does not address the issue of synergism - which has a nasty way of gutting the doctrine of grace, so as to make grace gracious in words but not in reality
At some point, grace has to be grace alone, or it ceases to be grace.Synergism = bad stuff
“Galatianism” =
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StevenFrancis
Guest
Do you know Catholics who believe they’re “worthy” of salvation? I don’t. We even say a prayer before receiving Eucharist: “Lord, I am NOT WORTHY to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” By the grace of God we are saved. We also pray and catechize, and feed the hungry, and minister to the sick, etc. Are these not works? Did Jesus tell us to lay about and know we go to heaven? Didn’t he say “give”?
I have trouble understanding the debate, and once was prostestant. I work on my salvation in awe, and with the full knowledge that no one is worthy of the gift of the Kingdom of God. We get it anyway, if we’ll accept God’s grace. The things I do in the name of Jesus, (everything), are for his glory. Not my salvation. That is solely God’s domain.
Peace to you,
Steven
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JamesRottnek
Guest
What I am getting at is that if you assume the verse precludes the possibility of things such as confirmation and baptism being necessary for salvation, then why would it also not preclude accepting God’s grace as necessary for salvation? That is, why would it not mean that you do not even need to accept God’s grace in order to be saved? That would mean, of course, that either everyone is saved or that God has chosen who will and will not be saved before they are born.I’m sorry, but your not making any sense.
I believe that God knows who will be saved and who will reject him, but I don’t understand what you are getting at.
What I am getting at is that you have no logical reason to say that the verse means that no act of man is necessary for salvation, except for the one act (accepting God’s grace) that you somehow are able to glean out of the text.
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guanophore
Guest
What does it mean to say “works lead to salvation”?
If by that you mean something contrary to what is mentioned in v. 10, a most popular vs. to leave out :
Eph 2:9-10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
The grace by which we are saved through faith brings about good works, and we should walk in them. When we walk that path, it leads to salvation. It is not the works that save us, but the grace that inspires them.
If you are under some misapprehension that Catholics are Pelagians, then you will not get an answer to your question here. I have been on these fora for quite some time, and have never met any Pelagians here, Catholic or otherwise.
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guanophore
Guest
It will be hard to find an answer to this question here. You may wish to look for a website inhabited by people who beleive they can be saved by their own efforts.Thanks for the link, but I don’t believe the answer given.
I is good to see that you have been able to answer your own question. Does that mean we are done with the thread?
Perhaps you would like to know what the Catholic Church actually teaches, instead of the misinformation you have been given?
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ralphinal
Guest
One verse does not a doctine make.Not to be picky
At some point, grace has to be grace alone, or it ceases to be grace.
Synergism = bad stuff
The question is flawed from the start.
po18guy
Well-known member
You are yet another victim of Catholic stereotyping. Catholics believe exactly as you do. It’s just that we are also called to perform works of mercy, for faith without works is dead.
If you are feeling really bold, get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You will be shocked at how much you agree with.
Peace.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, Gottle. Synergism means “work with”. We choose to conform our wills to His, and to yield to the work of the HS in us.Not to be picky
At some point, grace has to be grace alone, or it ceases to be grace.
Synergism = bad stuff
Phil 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
We work BECAUSE God is at work in us.
B
BRIT72
Guest
There is one thing man must do and that is believe, trust that what the Lord Jesus Christ did at calvary is enough to save them. Then God gives the new believer his Holy Spirit. He is then a changed creature. The problem is that there are many that profess to be saved and are giving the truly saved a bad name, people are looking at them and thinking that all Christians think they have a lisence to sin, because they are eternally saved. This of course is not what a true born again believer thinks. When we sin we are chastised by our Father, we will not get away with sin. A born again believer will sin, but will not want to carry on in sin. If a person wants to carry on in sin, I would doubt their conversion.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
and what is your point?
we know that salvation is a gift of God. we as sinners didnt get that salvation because we deserve lest we all boast about it. this does not mean that our Lord did not give us instructions to do what is good. just read about the end of time where Jesus says to those who did good to others and what He said to those who did not. this should put in the right tract.
you might want to discredit the teachings of the CC, but so what many have tried before to no avail.
just a piece of advice. obey the CC and you should be fine. the True teaching of Jesus was given to His Church, follow her and you will be follow Jesus Himself. and you dont have to worry about trying to enterpret the Holy Scriptures for yourself. stress free.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
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BRIT72
Guest
I know we are supposed to do good, but only what Christ did gets anyone into heaven.
I’ll stay where the Lord wants me thanks.
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CarolinNC
Guest
Hi Brit,
You are right, without what Christ has suffered for us, none of us could be worthy of heaven, even if we did nothing BUT good works. We, as Catholics believe that, too.
But we believe that in professing faith in Christ’s saving grace, it behooves us to follow Him and His teachings, to have faith, hope and charity, and to show him our love through the deeds that we do, not just the words that we speak.
May the Lord be praised, may He be praised always and everywhere.
You are right, without what Christ has suffered for us, none of us could be worthy of heaven, even if we did nothing BUT good works. We, as Catholics believe that, too.
But we believe that in professing faith in Christ’s saving grace, it behooves us to follow Him and His teachings, to have faith, hope and charity, and to show him our love through the deeds that we do, not just the words that we speak.
May the Lord be praised, may He be praised always and everywhere.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i dont quite understand what is it that you want here. do you know what the CC teach about this?
please tell us. what is it that we as Catholics believe? for you to come here and begin preaching to us, you must know before hand for sure what the CC teaches. and not what you have heard from those who work against the CC.
as you know 2000 years of teaching is no small matter. Church before the Bible. Church built by Christ and not by Luther or calvin or others.
the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. One Church, not many. remember that. go with the Old.
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BRIT72
Guest
I agree, we should follow Christ and his teaching’s, out of obedience and Love for the Saviour, but they are works that follow salvation, they do not add to what Christ has done for us. They don’t get us into heaven.
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BRIT72
Guest
As I have to keep saying, the Church are all born again believers, for many denominations.
I follow Christ and his teachings, which are clearly laid out in Scripture and there is no need for anything other that Scripture. Good teaching on the Scriptures is one thing, but it must not go against Scripture. We need God’s word and God’s word is enough.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:16.
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