What does Women are Portrait in our Catholic Faith

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Xantippe said:
No I don’t.

But I do reject any theorizing on marriage based on best case scenarios–husband never has mental illness, never has a brain injury, never develops an addiction, never gets a brain tumor, never has a stroke, never has dementia, etc.

It seems to me that at least one of those items is eventually going to happen to any particular person, given enough time.
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Nope, that is not what is being done, it is the only thing you can see becasue you can then assume everyone has those things at all times.

Note post 37

I agreed with you.

And no comment on my table?

My first example with the table was the evils that can happen from the standpoint of the person who is head.

The second is a perfect description of what you present.

You present the table as NEVER there EVER. And you have no comment on that because?

If the table is not there in truth then regardless of what that equates to metaphorically you do not operate in submissiion. Whether it is an alcoholic saying to bring them a beer or an abuser saying to come get your lashes or even a person who is a true micromanager. NO ONE I have seen on these forums who “opposes” you advocates for the things you say. All of these convos end with girls getting raped in the streets in some 3rd world hell hole…

No one is clamoring for that here that I have seen. No it is a matter of time, and impasse, and lack of knowledge when there is not sin or clear harm.

And most… at least me advocate VERY much the other end as well. But you assume I will have a mental disorder and be evil in short order…soo my duties are mute…

But good news… well bad news…

Independent refusal of submission women who date and marry nutjobs still get abused… only in actuallity probably worse so. In that IF he is a evil man he is going to do evil to you whether you let him or not… In a world where women are to be heard rawr they KEEP stating their power and date repeatedly actual abusers. I have met far and few between in regards to women who have not succumb to such… ironically the best part? Well best for point here… they are all MORE independent and were so when they met their evil doers. Why? Over compensation for a disordered situation.

The women of age that I have met whom do not share your distaste for men? Most are happily married with no prior abusive relationships under their belt.

I admit this is a hard item as it entails reading a persona and learning them… but I know what I see unless i am disordered lol…

My version said and ignored ad nauseum and impossible to percieve by those who do not wish to release their hate is simply a matter of course for both parties.

This submission is MUTUAL up to the point of the head.

Even as Jesus is head the church… did Jesus say to shut up and not pray? Did Jesus tell his followers to not ask question? Etc? No!

The issue here is impasse or time. Impasse or time is the break point, and it is extra ironic because it is possible there is none. But the rules of your own posted church teaching stand in theory even if they don’t come.

Impasse may never happen, heck it probably shouldn’t.

In fact if people function well, intune and with good intents often there is no leader even when there “is”.

But the rules laid out have stones along the way. Which person has their obligations. You just repeat that your obligations are Pre differed due to possible mental issues of the future?

The way you read this is akin to the following

Thou shalt not kill

the church recognizes that in order to preserve life it is permissable to stop an aggressor who intends to murder others by lethal force if necessary

“See see the bold!!! Stop saying we cant kill, we can kill anyone we want because in the future they may try to kill us”

And your perceived opposition is the whole time saying you CAN kill the aggressor but not the innocent.

The best defense is “I am married” by some… some who we also realized were still young pups themselves married less time than it took for others to get divorced and such lol…

And the point missed in a theological convo we are not always discussing success persay…

There are highly successful gay married couples
Pagans
Atheists
Open marriages

Etc.

I have a airconditioner with the wrong size and style filter fitted into it. IT WORKS PERFECTLY.

If God had commanded me to track down and install only the proper filter, in a theological sense I ask you would telling God how my AC is successful mean anything? Or would I most likely be screwed?
 
Xantippe said:
Well, so far I’ve only seen you accept clear actual sin as a reason for a wife not to obey her husband…

Got any other exceptions?
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Every single one referenced in the document YOU quoted! :banghead:
 
ShrodingersCat said:
sigh

Why don’t people do a thread search before posting popcorn topics that rile half the forum?

:p:D
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🤷

I pressume given the years this forum has existed… there would be almost no new posts since somewhere it is already covered LOL.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Every single one referenced in the document YOU quoted! :banghead:
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That’s great!

Previously, it sounded like you were embracing a theory of “pick good guy and follow him up to the point of clear sin.” That’s not the worst possible scenario (I occasionally run into people who believe that wives should obey in sin, too), but it’s not quite what Casti Connubii says.

The obeying-in-sin thing comes up more than you might think–usually the theory is the wife needs to just have faith and God will make it all right, no matter how bad the thing she’s going along with is…Because wives aren’t morally responsible agents–according to this theory, morality for wives consists entirely of obeying their husbands and their husbands are responsible for any suboptimal results…There’s at least one CAFer who has that view and it comes up even more frequently among Protestants.

But if you agree with Casti Connubii–wonderful!
 
I can’t in good conscience follow the dictates of

An addict
A drunk
A psychotic
A serial killer
A delusional
Etc

So, I thought ‘well-formed’ pretty much covered that.

However… If he’s a drunk and he asks for a glass of water… He has a right to water, and he has a right to ask me for it. Even if he’s a jerk in general and a jerk about the request in particular… Is his innate state relevant to a perfectly legitimate request? I think this is the discussion we’re actually having.

Of course I don’t WANT to do anything for such a person… His state makes compliancy unpleasant… But the highest, best form of Christian charity… Let alone being married… Says comply with what is reasonable no matter your personal feeling at the moment. Right?
 
LethalMouse said:
Nope, that is not what is being done, it is the only thing you can see becasue you can then assume everyone has those things at all times.

[snip]

And no comment on my table?

[snip]

Independent refusal of submission women who date and marry nutjobs still get abused… only in actuallity probably worse so. In that IF he is a evil man he is going to do evil to you whether you let him or not… In a world where women are to be heard rawr they KEEP stating their power and date repeatedly actual abusers. I have met far and few between in regards to women who have not succumb to such… ironically the best part? Well best for point here… they are all MORE independent and were so when they met their evil doers. Why? Over compensation for a disordered situation.

The women of age that I have met whom do not share your distaste for men? Most are happily married with no prior abusive relationships under their belt.

[snip]

This submission is MUTUAL up to the point of the head.

[snip]

“See see the bold!!! Stop saying we cant kill, we can kill anyone we want because in the future they may try to kill us”

[snip]

And the point missed in a theological convo we are not always discussing success persay…

There are highly successful gay married couples
Pagans
Atheists
Open marriages
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  1. Well, with some of these health conditions, the first symptom may be that the person is not themselves, or that they are making bad decisions for their families. A lot of bad decisions could happen before there is an actual diagnosis, plus some medical opportunities may be lost by not investigating earlier.
Plus, one of the things that good wives often need to put their feet down about is doctor visits. A lot of men would never go to the doctor if their wife wasn’t there to say, “You have an appointment for Tuesday at 10 AM.” Not unrelated–married men live longer than single and divorced men.
  1. I LOVED your table–I just didn’t comment on it. I thought it was an interesting example of how sometimes people in authority ask for stuff that isn’t even possible.
  2. I had a kind of abusive boyfriend many moons ago. I got out (not immediately, but I got out), took a couple year break, and married somebody very different. Lots of women do.
  3. I would not call myself RAWR independent. I’m an SAHM, I have a nice smart husband, he makes a great living, and 95-99% of the time, he has great ideas. Sometimes, they’re great ideas, but I just need more information than I’m getting. However, every once in a blue moon, there’s a dud. Part of my job as his wife is to do that stuff–ask for information when I don’t understand something help with quality control when there’s a bad idea. (That email you want to send to the kid’s teacher–how about not sending it or waiting a little bit? Or how about not overloading the washing machine? The internet says not to do that. Or, could you not bring the car home to me with the gas on empty and surprise me with an almost empty tank when I may be in a hurry tomorrow? Or, I know you want to stay up, but I’m tired, so I’m going to bed, sweetie! Etc.) I used to be a lot more rage-y a couple years ago and we had a reset. I learned to control my temper better (not perfectly–but better) and to explain my concerns more calmly, and my husband started being a lot more considerate. It’s been absolutely magical.
A lot of this is not RAWR independence, but the opposite–learning to live together in peace and harmony without subjecting a spouse to scary rage-y explosions (me) or without subjecting a spouse by death by a thousand cuts of aggravation (my husband). If an outside observer didn’t know better, he might think it was S-U-B-M-I-S-S-I-O-N. And hey, maybe it is submission–but it doesn’t mean me tiptoeing around my husband or eating dirt all the time. In fact, I explain my feelings and my preferences a lot more than I used to, but I do it before I’m mad, which means I don’t wind up getting mad. So, WIN-WIN!
  1. I LOVE men! But I don’t think any person in authority ought to be able to get carte blanche–that’s a recipe for disaster and abuse.
  2. Yes, submission ought to be mutual.
  3. Actually, it’s not assuming harm where there is none, because in the sort of case I’m thinking of, there is already risk of immediate harm. Let us say that a husband is preparing to make a large purchase without spousal approval, or is planning to take out a large business loan, or is entering into a legal partnership. For example, I was recently talking with a guy online who thought it was unconscionable that a wife could tell her husband not to buy a $25,000 truck.:eek: This is an item that could bring serious harm to the family if the circumstances are wrong.
  4. About the successful not-so-kosher relationships–I’m sure that all of those people could teach us SOMETHING about how to treat our spouse with respect and love, even if as a whole their life was disordered.
 
But we (I and LM) were speaking in the context of mutual respect… Where he’d mention ‘hey, I’m thinking about buying this truck…’

Um… Can we afford that?

My Potential Suitor is good with money, most likely way better than me. He’s made it a good long time thus far quite safely, and has way more experience than me. I’d expect him to take charge of that… And I’d also expect him to keep me informed.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
I can’t in good conscience follow the dictates of

An addict
A drunk
A psychotic
A serial killer
A delusional
Etc

So, I thought ‘well-formed’ pretty much covered that.

However… If he’s a drunk and he asks for a glass of water… He has a right to water, and he has a right to ask me for it. Even if he’s a jerk in general and a jerk about the request in particular… Is his innate state relevant to a perfectly legitimate request? I think this is the discussion we’re actually having.

Of course I don’t WANT to do anything for such a person… His state makes compliancy unpleasant… But the highest, best form of Christian charity… Let alone being married… Says comply with what is reasonable no matter your personal feeling at the moment. Right?
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That’s good, too.
 
SilverShadow22 said:
But we (I and LM) were speaking in the context of mutual respect… Where he’d mention ‘hey, I’m thinking about buying this truck…’

Um… Can we afford that?

My Potential Suitor is good with money, most likely way better than me. He’s made it a good long time thus far quite safely, and has way more experience than me. I’d expect him to take charge of that… And I’d also expect him to keep me informed.
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Ah, but in the heavy-duty version of wifely submission, he’d buy it without asking no matter what you said.

Once we’re talking “mutual respect,” I think we’re no longer in the land of heavy-duty submission.
 
Xantippe said:
Ah, but in the heavy-duty version of wifely submission, he’d buy it without asking no matter what you said.

Once we’re talking “mutual respect,” I think we’re no longer in the land of heavy-duty submission.
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I think a lot of hangup comes when one party’s definition of ‘reasonable request’ clashes with the other… Which is why I keep going back to ‘be careful who you choose’ 🤷
 
SilverShadow22 said:
I think a lot of hangup comes when one party’s definition of ‘reasonable request’ clashes with the other… Which is why I keep going back to ‘be careful who you choose’ 🤷
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Also, “make sure you understand what you mean by submission.”

I had really bad ideas about wifely submission as a new bride. We thought that we’d talk things out and then if we couldn’t resolve it, then my husband would get the deciding vote. (You often see that method recommended on CAF.) We didn’t usually do that in practice. In practice, I’d be accepting little irritating stuff while boiling inside and then finally blowing up or (in cases with bigger stuff) having a fight and putting my foot down. The problem was, if the thing was a big deal that we couldn’t resolve through talking it out, it was very unlikely to be something I was just going to fold on.

As I mentioned, we had a bit of a reset a couple years ago. I realized that I didn’t need to do the seethe-explode cycle–I could speak up before I got mad and explain myself and then not get mad. For instance, rather than getting rage-y because my husband was keeping me from going to bed (I’d be seeing double from exhaustion, I’d say I wanted to go to bed, he’d tell me not to), I’d just tell him I was going to bed and go to bed. I used to think that my husband was keeping me up because he was a selfish controlling jerk who didn’t care if I was exhausted–but the truth was that he didn’t know.🤷 As wild as it sounds, it just didn’t cross his mind that the reason I wanted to go to bed was that I was tired. Marriage is unfortunately often full of similar stupid misunderstandings.

Getting rid of the seethe-explode cycle has injected a lot of good will into our marriage. I’m a lot calmer now and so my problem-solving is a lot more effective, which helps with resolving bigger problems.

And if I had just kept “submitting” (and exploding) I’d still think that my husband was a big selfish jerk.

Edited to add: One thing that contributed to the bedtime misunderstanding is that my husband is much more expressive than I am. So if he were tired, he’d say something like, “I’m so exhausted! I’ve got to go to bed right now! I have to get up early tomorrow!” while I would say (under the same exact circumstances), “I want to go to bed now,” meaning the exact same thing. It turned out that my husband needed me to be much more expressive if he was going to understand my needs. But until we understood that, there were a lot of hurt feelings–I thought my husband was hurting me on purpose but he really honestly didn’t know.
 
Neither me nor my Potential Suitor have any problems saying exactly what we think.

Well… I do, but that’s only because I often have trouble being exact. :rolleyes: As you just witnessed earlier. 😛

And, just like you and I disagreed, even though we didn’t… He and I have argued, only to find we didn’t even really disagree. 🤷

Always define your terms…
 
SilverShadow22 said:
Neither me nor my Potential Suitor have any problems saying exactly what we think.

Well… I do, but that’s only because I often have trouble being exact. :rolleyes: As you just witnessed earlier. 😛

And, just like you and I disagreed, even though we didn’t… He and I have argued, only to find we didn’t even really disagree. 🤷

Always define your terms…
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That does happen quite a lot. That’s another potential submission issue–what if she thinks that she is submitting when it isn’t actually something he wanted at all?
 
But the point is, we argued to resolution and then didn’t sulk.

If the pattern holds, this is much better than letting everyone think things that aren’t true, even if it hurt a little more up front to start the argument in the first place.
 
Xantippe said:
  1. Well, with some of these health conditions, the first symptom may be that the person is not themselves, or that they are making bad decisions for their families. A lot of bad decisions could happen before there is an actual diagnosis, plus some medical opportunities may be lost by not investigating earlier.
Plus, one of the things that good wives often need to put their feet down about is doctor visits. A lot of men would never go to the doctor if their wife wasn’t there to say, “You have an appointment for Tuesday at 10 AM.” Not unrelated–married men live longer than single and divorced men.
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Again your response is soley based on the other person Always having this. You are still making it sound as though EVERY MAN EVERY DAY has a disorder in the works. To be honest if I listened to you I would say that husbands should literally blindly follow their wives becasue tour tone makes me wonder why men exist as functional members of society instead of just beeding stock.
  1. I LOVED your table–I just didn’t comment on it. I thought it was an interesting example of how sometimes people in authority ask for stuff that isn’t even possible.
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I agree which is why I said it 🙂

But you still avoid the second half. When to use your disorders as an example of the table… if Xantippe marries me and [wrongfully] decides I am crazy and cannot be shaken from her wrongful belief what then? I know divorce because she is crazy etc…

But the issue is this is the new way of people men and women. It is scary. My biggest distrust of people isn’t their concious intent, it is when they become wrongfully righteous. Like Magneto from Xmen as a villian. He IS fighting to avoid a bad thing and he TRULY believes himself to be good… but in the end he is the villain and murders the innocent (though he does not believe they are)

TBH I see some people and in these convos the tilt you have, I see you able to judge a saint to death not out of evil, but because you will think it good. I fear that the most as evil is easier to deal with, I fear not a demon, I fear the mistaken saint 😦
  1. I had a kind of abusive boyfriend many moons ago. I got out (not immediately, but I got out), took a couple year break, and married somebody very different. Lots of women do.
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Sorry but in my experience they makenit out and find a place to abuse their man… I cast no such judgement but in these convos I often picture a man who wears those tshirts “I don’t need google because ny wife knows everything”

Weingful domination is bad either way :confused:
  1. I would not call myself RAWR independent. I’m an SAHM, I have a nice smart husband, he makes a great living, and 95-99% of the time, he has great ideas. Sometimes, they’re great ideas, but I just need more information than I’m getting. However, every once in a blue moon, there’s a dud. Part of my job as his wife is to do that stuff–ask for information when I don’t understand something help with quality control when there’s a bad idea. (That email you want to send to the kid’s teacher–how about not sending it or waiting a little bit? Or how about not overloading the washing machine? The internet says not to do that. Or, could you not bring the car home to me with the gas on empty and surprise me with an almost empty tank when I may be in a hurry tomorrow? Or, I know you want to stay up, but I’m tired, so I’m going to bed, sweetie! Etc.) I used to be a lot more rage-y a couple years ago and we had a reset. I learned to control my temper better (not perfectly–but better) and to explain my concerns more calmly, and my husband started being a lot more considerate. It’s been absolutely magical.
Click to expand...
A lot of this is not RAWR independence, but the opposite–learning to live together in peace and harmony without subjecting a spouse to scary rage-y explosions (me) or without subjecting a spouse by death by a thousand cuts of aggravation (my husband). If an outside observer didn’t know better, he might think it was S-U-B-M-I-S-S-I-O-N. And hey, maybe it is submission–but it doesn’t mean me tiptoeing around my husband or eating dirt all the time. In fact, I explain my feelings and my preferences a lot more than I used to, but I do it before I’m mad, which means I don’t wind up getting mad. So, WIN-WIN!
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First I believe as I have seen. People fold to their nature more than they know. Women even those who stand atop the mountains rawring often become submissive in a relationship if nothing else to a degree. Sometimes 🤷

And it is the things you say in practicallity we generally agree on because again no one is advocating slavery … if you have to perpetually tip toe around your husband then he is not head like Christ but more like Satan rules his demons… which is not the discussion lol 😉
 
  1. I LOVE men! But I don’t think any person in authority ought to be able to get carte blanche–that’s a recipe for disaster and abuse.
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I lost track of the snips… you did catch the impasse, time thing?

And impasse is still not carte blanche… it is a relative nuetral impasse. Color of the walls in the home SHOULDN’T be an impasse noting my snipped bit… but if it is then there is the default. Fallen world and all. In a non falen world impasse would not be possible because the best would always be 😃
  1. Yes, submission ought to be mutual.
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👍
  1. Actually, it’s not assuming harm where there is none, because in the sort of case I’m thinking of, there is already risk of immediate harm. Let us say that a husband is preparing to make a large purchase without spousal approval, or is planning to take out a large business loan, or is entering into a legal partnership. For example, I was recently talking with a guy online who thought it was unconscionable that a wife could tell her husband not to buy a $25,000 truck.:eek: This is an item that could bring serious harm to the family if the circumstances are wrong.
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The proof of my pudding “in the sort of case I am thinking of” that is your only thought on this topic. He has evil, stupid, or detrimental intent and she is a perfect saint…

The misguided saint demon comes into play here. The NICE thing is for some people they have weaker wills. If you TELL them they are wrong, evil, and stupid ling enough they will believe you and you can be happy informing them of your better awesomeness… which I do believe has become a common thing :confused:
  1. About the successful not-so-kosher relationships–I’m sure that all of those people could teach us SOMETHING about how to treat our spouse with respect and love, even if as a whole their life was disordered.
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Well I am talking salvation with God, not practicality. Minus the whole forgiveness thing I am talking like my AC example.

If I argue with god that my airconditioner works He will not be swayed by my lawyer attempts like the weak willed human above.

If God said to do it and I refused the rest is mute…

And fogiveness is hard if I meet judgement by telling God He doesn’t understand how well my airconditioner worked… quite frankly God doesn’t care if it worked, He cares if I went out to get the filter He said…
 
Xantippe said:
Ah, but in the heavy-duty version of wifely submission, he’d buy it without asking no matter what you said.

Once we’re talking “mutual respect,” I think we’re no longer in the land of heavy-duty submission.
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That is not wifely submission, that is disordered slavery two very differnt things.

As your poster boy for horrible guys please note the things you say is not what anyone with a minute amout of love in their hearts does…

Or idk maybe some people are pure disordered… I noticed in an arguement with a lady her view on what to do for someone she loved was in practicality what I do only to those I dislike… I in my view of what love is do I more for a neutral party than she seemed interested in doing for love. So I get your fear…

Of course we are called to follow the great commandment, and perhaps one should not be appllying Catholic theology to those who do not follow such?
 
Xantippe said:
Also, “make sure you understand what you mean by submission.”

I had really bad ideas about wifely submission as a new bride. We thought that we’d talk things out and then if we couldn’t resolve it, then my husband would get the deciding vote. (You often see that method recommended on CAF.) We didn’t usually do that in practice. In practice, **I’d be accepting little irritating stuff while boiling inside and then finally blowing up **or (in cases with bigger stuff) having a fight and putting my foot down. The problem was, if the thing was a big deal that we couldn’t resolve through talking it out, it was very unlikely to be something I was just going to fold on.

As I mentioned, we had a bit of a reset a couple years ago. I realized that I didn’t need to do the seethe-explode cycle–I could speak up before I got mad and explain myself and then not get mad. For instance, rather than getting rage-y because my husband was keeping me from going to bed (I’d be seeing double from exhaustion, I’d say I wanted to go to bed, he’d tell me not to), I’d just tell him I was going to bed and go to bed. I used to think that my husband was keeping me up because he was a selfish controlling jerk who didn’t care if I was exhausted–but the truth was that he didn’t know.🤷 As wild as it sounds, it just didn’t cross his mind that the reason I wanted to go to bed was that I was tired. Marriage is unfortunately often full of similar stupid misunderstandings.

Getting rid of the seethe-explode cycle has injected a lot of good will into our marriage. I’m a lot calmer now and so my problem-solving is a lot more effective, which helps with resolving bigger problems.

And if I had just kept “submitting” (and exploding) I’d still think that my husband was a big selfish jerk.

Edited to add: One thing that contributed to the bedtime misunderstanding is that my husband is much more expressive than I am. So if he were tired, he’d say something like, “I’m so exhausted! I’ve got to go to bed right now! I have to get up early tomorrow!” while I would say (under the same exact circumstances), “I want to go to bed now,” meaning the exact same thing. It turned out that my husband needed me to be much more expressive if he was going to understand my needs. But until we understood that, there were a lot of hurt feelings–I thought my husband was hurting me on purpose but he really honestly didn’t know.
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The bold, is disorderer falseness and it seems to involve “blowing up” after falsely agreeing. Then being surprised when he isnt a nice guy.

Relationships can be cycles. If one person is a perfect saint then they may avoid the cycle… but rarely is the case.

I am reminded here of my exwife…

Once we hit marriage counseling I got very good at it 🙂

So we argue and I do all counseling stuff
She chooses to curse me out and insult me and be everything opposite of counseling…

After 30 minutes I am human and give her what she is giving me…

To which “Uh How dare you talk to your wife like that”

Me “you have been doing it for 30 mins…”

Her" I am human I make mistakes"

Me “so I am a robot and dont get mistakes???”

Fyi she still hasnt answered that one 🤷 I live assumijg I must be non human and apparently human salvatiin doesn’t apply to me…

But yeah you cant do one and then expect the spouse to be wonderful… if you lie and explode… your spouse is going to do two things
  1. Lose respect and trust in you
  2. React in kind…
 
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