What does Women are Portrait in our Catholic Faith

[Xantippe]

But the point is, we argued to resolution and then didn’t sulk.

If the pattern holds, this is much better than letting everyone think things that aren’t true, even if it hurt a little more up front to start the argument in the first place.

I have to warn you–that is a lot easier as a young couple when there really isn’t a lot on the line and there isn’t a lot of history or little kids underfoot–no babies, no serious money troubles, no sleep deprivation, etc.

I could have said exactly the same thing when my husband and I were dating or newlyweds, but things get tougher the more responsibilities you are carrying together, the more stress there is, and the more history there is.

That’s why I was initially deceived into thinking that we could just talk right through everything.

Not that the changes aren’t survivable, but things are genuinely easier (and ought to be easier) as a young courting couple. It’s playing the game on “easy.”

 

[Xantippe]

But you still avoid the second half. When to use your disorders as an example of the table… if Xantippe marries me and [wrongfully] decides I am crazy and cannot be shaken from her wrongful belief what then? I know divorce because she is crazy etc…

[snip]

Sorry but in my experience they makenit out and find a place to abuse their man… I cast no such judgement but in these convos I often picture a man who wears those tshirts “I don’t need google because ny wife knows everything”

[snip]

And it is the things you say in practicallity we generally agree on because again no one is advocating slavery … if you have to perpetually tip toe around your husband then he is not head like Christ but more like Satan rules his demons… which is not the discussion lol

1. Well, I think the existence of brain issues is a reason not to blindly follow anybody.

If a husband wants to make a major decision and the wife is worried about it, I don’t think that the husband ought to just bulldoze her. I think it’s a good thing to provide more information and a lot of times that will do the job. And if more information or some sort of compromise doesn’t do the job and she’s still worried about it–maybe they don’t do the thing.

Even if her worries are groundless, she’s still going to be living in anxiety over the issue, so it doesn’t seem very loving to impose it on her. After all, nothing is on fire, right?

And of course, the other way around if she has a bright idea (I will buy ALL the Avon stock!) and he is worried. Being protected from our stupid, impulsive ideas is one of the gold-plated benefits of having a spouse at all. They’re not just there to help us do stupid faster. (And yeah, I think that stupid impulsive ideas are extremely destructive to marriage.)

1. Wait–in your experienced, abused women seek out abuser after abuser–and also take it out on an innocent new guy?

Which is it? Or is it both?

1. Only a big jerk would wear a shirt insulting his wife. Blech!
2. You say “no one is advocating slavery.” Not right her and right now, but it’s not hard to find people with really, really harsh views of wifely submission.

 

[Xantippe]

And impasse is still not carte blanche… it is a relative nuetral impasse. Color of the walls in the home SHOULDN’T be an impasse noting my snipped bit… but if it is then there is the default. Fallen world and all. In a non falen world impasse would not be possible because the best would always be

The proof of my pudding “in the sort of case I am thinking of” that is your only thought on this topic. He has evil, stupid, or detrimental intent and she is a perfect saint…

The misguided saint demon comes into play here. The NICE thing is for some people they have weaker wills. If you TELL them they are wrong, evil, and stupid ling enough they will believe you and you can be happy informing them of your better awesomeness… which I do believe has become a common thing

1. I’m a little lost with regard to what you are talking about with regard to an impasse.

I might agree, but I’m not sure what you’re saying.

1. Well, I am thinking of cases where a husband wants to make a major, non-emergency decision and the wife is expected to submit to it.

Remember, we’re talking about wifely submission, right? If it doesn’t cover that, what does it cover?

It doesn’t matter who is a demon and who is a saint if it’s his right to get submission, and her obligation to submit to all of his ideas, no matter how terrible they are. We’re not talking about the wife’s crazy ideas in this thread, because the idea is that she’s submitting to her husband, so her bad ideas don’t get off the ground if he doesn’t approve. His crazy ideas, however, are completely unchecked.

That is the big knock against wifely submission, as popularly understood–it only puts a brakes on one set of bad ideas (the wife’s), whereas in practice, both members of a couple have bad ideas, and both need to (from time to time) take a chill pill when inspiration strikes.

 

[Xantippe]

The bold, is disorderer falseness and it seems to involve “blowing up” after falsely agreeing. Then being surprised when he isnt a nice guy.

[snip]

But yeah you cant do one and then expect the spouse to be wonderful… if you lie and explode… your spouse is going to do two things

1. Lose respect and trust in you
2. React in kind…

There is a big problem with calling it “falsely agreeing.” Namely, when most Christian hear the term “submitting” that’s what they understand it to mean–it means going along with your husband’s plan even when you disagree, it’s the last thing you want to do, when it hurts you, when you feel like it’s bad for the family, etc, because submission is one’s wifely duty (like I felt like I couldn’t go to bed when I was tired if my husband told me not to go). If it were just being convinced, the wife would be convinced and wouldn’t need to “submit,” but submission in the conventional Christian (especially Protestant) usage implies that the wife has to suck it up, stick a smile on her face, and fake it, no matter what her own personal beliefs about the situation are.

I don’t think it has to be like that, given the possibility of mutual submission or given Sheila Wray Gregoire’s take on submission (namely seeking the other’s welfare), but in the mainstream conservative Protestant world (which like it or not has a lot of influence on American Catholics), submission does actually mean “falsely agreeing.” It means accepting stuff that makes you want to die inside because it’s your duty as a good wife.

It’s a terrible, terrible idea, but that’s how literally millions of conservative Christian women try to live. Here’s the usual blog post I give for this subject:

iprefercaptain.com/2014/07/15/

As she says, “Now, one could say, “You were taking this whole complementarian teaching waaaaaaay too far. Headship and submission doesn’t mean that! You’re supposed to have your own thoughts, your own life, and your own red delicious apples!” That’s easy to say, but very hard to quantify. No one tells you where submission should stop. No one says, “The line is drawn here! This far—no further!””

She has another piece here that’s about the fact that a lot of their marital and financial struggles were caused by her husband’s undiagnosed ADHD:

"Even worse, we were a part of a church that emphasized that God created marriage with certain roles for women and men. The woman was always to submit to her husband, in every circumstance. Even if the husband made a wrong choice, God would honor the woman for obeying her husband, because she was actually obeying God.

“I really thought God had it out for me!”

adhdrollercoaster.org/tools-and-strategies/chapter-4-its-only-money-honey/

And the sad thing was, her husband had no idea how much she was suffering. He wasn’t a bad guy, it’s just that it’s a bad system.

I didn’t have nearly as bad an experience (largely because I didn’t try as hard as that writer did), but I relate very much to her story. My husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me and I didn’t realize that my husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me. I thought he was doing it on purpose.

So, yeah I’m a little bitter about the whole theory. I think un-nuanced “submission” can be extremely damaging–and very unfairly, it’s the most damaging to the people who try hardest. So, that’s why I am very quick to set out the orange traffic cones when the subject comes up.

 

[Xantippe]

Lethal Mouse,

One more thing for the night.

I don’t think you understand how powerful the programming I’m talking about is. Until very recently, I just wasn’t capable of telling my husband “no” without it being a very big deal. Today, he can make a suggestion, and I can say “no” and be very nice about it and go about my business, but I grew up in a Protestant home where I literally never heard my mom tell my dad “no.” (They had lots of fights, but I never heard my mom say no to any request.) So my programming is to believe that if I tell my husband “no” that’s a big scary deal.

On top of that, my husband had no idea that I felt like I could not say no to minor requests. He’d pile on all these little requests that he could do as well as me (or better) and I was internally very resentful. But, he had no idea that I thought I couldn’t say “no” to that stuff and that I was seething with resentment–he thought that he could ask me a favor, just like he could ask any friend, and I could say yes or no at will, because his idea of wifely submission did not involve fulfilling all minor requests. But, it took 15+ years of being married to him before we actually had that conversation, as my husband and I come from radically different families of origin, so we didn’t even realize that it was an issue.

 

[LethalMouse]

1. Well, I think the existence of brain issues is a reason not to blindly follow anybody.

My issue is that this mindset creates one in which we accuse all of being unworthy of everything. And blind follow is not Christian submission or Jesus would not have let people discuss and understand what He was saying.

If a husband wants to make a major decision and the wife is worried about it,** I don’t think that the husband ought to just bulldoze her.** I think it’s a good thing to provide more information and a lot of times that will do the job. And if more information or some sort of compromise doesn’t do the job and she’s still worried about it–maybe they don’t do the thing.

No he should not!

In some cases, but in other cases it might need be…
I think this is like stealing examples made on this forum, stealing is wrong.
Taking a shirt off a clothesline to stop the bleeding of an accident victim in a pinch… is not wrong.

All things are situational to at least some degree, and I am usually talking about saving the life.

Some hear only walking into a bank and loading sacks with other people’s money

Even if her worries are groundless, she’s still going to be living in anxiety over the issue, so it doesn’t seem very loving to impose it on her. After all, nothing is on fire, right?

Again situational. But the key here is groundless and limits. And an issue of respect… perhaps one involving failed humanity but tbh if I am dealing with a woman who disagrees with me groundlessly [truly for the sake of this point] then I will work with her out of love…to a point. But at some point you will see someone as always groundless, and then what? if she is at a point of having no real stance but has vague groundless worries she is either going to cause him to lose respect for her opinion OR she will need to be strong enough to beat him down. either way it is disordered…

I have broken up with one woman for such as she groundlessly argued and admitted it was partially done to “keep me in check” that I may not get agreed with too much and get a big head…

However with all that info I knew if I was right and she agreed how big could my head get?
If I was right and she disagreed for no reason and she was wrong 9/10 times how could I care for her opinion??? I let her go because I did not want to actually get a big head.

My greatest efforts in life are to make sure I never become blind to whether the table is or is not there… if I see something risking my becoming human in that regard I fear it because the day I become what you talk about is the day I failed at life.

And of course, the other way around if she has a bright idea (I will buy ALL the Avon stock!) and he is worried. Being protected from our stupid, impulsive ideas is one of the gold-plated benefits of having a spouse at all. They’re not just there to help us do stupid faster. (And yeah, I think that stupid impulsive ideas are extremely destructive to marriage.)

But HE is on a one way track to addictions and mental disorders… Why would you not buy all the Avon stock? His opinion is simply one of an insane tyrannical oppressor…

1. Wait–in your experienced, abused women seek out abuser after abuser–and also take it out on an innocent new guy?

Which is it? Or is it both?

It is usually both as noted by most older women “She keeps going for those guys, just wait near 30 we all learn”

1. Only a big jerk would wear a shirt insulting his wife. Blech!

In this case it was not insulting, it was her who buys it for him because it is their literal dynamic… nice twist though

1. You say “no one is advocating slavery.” Not right her and right now, but it’s not hard to find people with really, really harsh views of wifely submission.

I am on CAF speaking of theological correctness not people’s disorders

 

[LethalMouse]

1. I’m a little lost with regard to what you are talking about with regard to an impasse.

I might agree, but I’m not sure what you’re saying.

Well first and foremost 2 perfect people should never have an impasse and some issues you or others might say should not be etc… but things happen.

I had said in one post wall color.

impasse since catholics are non divorce right?

Are simply issues in which you have hit 2 options, someone submits or you divorce…

Now again this is CATHOLIC so the impasse can’t be the husband want to rob a bank and the woman does not so she should submit.

And the thread is asking the woman’s role.

So as while from this theological standpoint the woman on a moral neutral such as wall color if set to divorce or submit should theoretically submit…

However 99.9% of the time if it came to that I would say the man a jerk
I would view wall color something to bend to for the love and happiness of my wife save perhaps all black walls or something… and there should always be a part of compromises between loves. etc…

TBH I do not want pink/purple walls! But if we were approaching an impasse I would accept them for my wife out of love.

1. Well, I am thinking of cases where a husband wants to make a major, non-emergency decision and the wife is expected to submit to it.

Remember, we’re talking about wifely submission, right? If it doesn’t cover that, what does it cover?

It covers the totality of a situation. A mindset etc.

That link I put up with the woman’s post… about covers it

It doesn’t matter who is a demon and who is a saint if it’s his right to get submission, and her obligation to submit to all of his ideas, no matter how terrible they are. We’re not talking about the wife’s crazy ideas in this thread, because the idea is that she’s submitting to her husband, so her bad ideas don’t get off the ground if he doesn’t approve. His crazy ideas, however, are completely unchecked.

This is also the problem. If the woman believes this, as you say you did. The woman who does the blind following is doing him a disservice.

I served under a fantastic leader, who I model my personal leadership off of. The first time I served under him I learned to lead like him.

The second time I served under him he had been beaten down by some factors and was not as great as he once was.

I followed him faithfully including subverting him on certain issues so that the end result was what he would actually want.

There I was in non disordered submission…SO long as I do not do so under Magneto syndrome

That is the big knock against wifely submission, as popularly understood–it only puts a brakes on one set of bad ideas (the wife’s), whereas in practice, both members of a couple have bad ideas, and both need to (from time to time) take a chill pill when inspiration strikes.

If I look at what Catholics and Christians believe and understand, I would say that Christianity is a false religion.

If I look at Church teaching, it is not

 

[Sarcelle]

There is a big problem with calling it “falsely agreeing.” Namely, when most Christian hear the term “submitting” that’s what they understand it to mean–it means going along with your husband’s plan even when you disagree, it’s the last thing you want to do, when it hurts you, when you feel like it’s bad for the family, etc, because submission is one’s wifely duty (like I felt like I couldn’t go to bed when I was tired if my husband told me not to go). If it were just being convinced, the wife would be convinced and wouldn’t need to “submit,” but submission in the conventional Christian (especially Protestant) usage implies that the wife has to suck it up, stick a smile on her face, and fake it, no matter what her own personal beliefs about the situation are.

I don’t think it has to be like that, given the possibility of mutual submission or given Sheila Wray Gregoire’s take on submission (namely seeking the other’s welfare), but in the mainstream conservative Protestant world (which like it or not has a lot of influence on American Catholics), submission does actually mean “falsely agreeing.” It means accepting stuff that makes you want to die inside because it’s your duty as a good wife.

It’s a terrible, terrible idea, but that’s how literally millions of conservative Christian women try to live. Here’s the usual blog post I give for this subject:

iprefercaptain.com/2014/07/15/

As she says, “Now, one could say, “You were taking this whole complementarian teaching waaaaaaay too far. Headship and submission doesn’t mean that! You’re supposed to have your own thoughts, your own life, and your own red delicious apples!” That’s easy to say, but very hard to quantify. No one tells you where submission should stop. No one says, “The line is drawn here! This far—no further!””

She has another piece here that’s about the fact that a lot of their marital and financial struggles were caused by her husband’s undiagnosed ADHD:

"Even worse, we were a part of a church that emphasized that God created marriage with certain roles for women and men. The woman was always to submit to her husband, in every circumstance. Even if the husband made a wrong choice, God would honor the woman for obeying her husband, because she was actually obeying God.

“I really thought God had it out for me!”

adhdrollercoaster.org/tools-and-strategies/chapter-4-its-only-money-honey/

And the sad thing was, her husband had no idea how much she was suffering. He wasn’t a bad guy, it’s just that it’s a bad system.

I didn’t have nearly as bad an experience (largely because I didn’t try as hard as that writer did), but I relate very much to her story. My husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me and I didn’t realize that my husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me. I thought he was doing it on purpose.

So, yeah I’m a little bitter about the whole theory. I think un-nuanced “submission” can be extremely damaging–and very unfairly, it’s the most damaging to the people who try hardest. So, that’s why I am very quick to set out the orange traffic cones when the subject comes up.

There are some crazy disordered stuff being advocated in the Protestant blogosphere.

There is one where a rape is considered Godly because according to some hard core submission types it is the perfect example of feminine submission.

First when we discuss the roles of husband and wife, we must first decide what leadership means. To me it does not mean bullying or micromanagement. After agreeing what good leadership means we can discuss what submission to that leadership means.

Marriage is unique, It is not a business partnership, employment, or a military hierarchy, although it may have some elements in common. This is why ultimately analogies will fall flat.

 

[LethalMouse]

There is a big problem with calling it “falsely agreeing.” Namely, when most Christian hear the term “submitting” that’s what they understand it to mean–it means going along with your husband’s plan even when you disagree, it’s the last thing you want to do, when it hurts you, when you feel like it’s bad for the family, etc, because submission is one’s wifely duty (like I felt like I couldn’t go to bed when I was tired if my husband told me not to go). If it were just being convinced, the wife would be convinced and wouldn’t need to “submit,” but submission in the conventional Christian (especially Protestant) usage implies that the wife has to suck it up, stick a smile on her face, and fake it, no matter what her own personal beliefs about the situation are.

I also think much depends on situations. We have a world where no matter our limitations we are all great!

Here’s the usual blog post I give for this subject:

It is!

And again have you read posts on here? Scrupulous people?

There are NUNS FOR PRO CHOICE IN THE WORLD!!!

what people believe has little to do with what is truth. I come to speak truth

As she says, "And the sad thing was, her husband had no idea how much she was suffering. He wasn’t a bad guy, it’s just that it’s a bad system.

I didn’t have nearly as bad an experience (largely because I didn’t try as hard as that writer did), but I relate very much to her story. My husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me and I didn’t realize that my husband didn’t realize that he was hurting me. I thought he was doing it on purpose.

So, yeah I’m a little bitter about the whole theory

. I think un-nuanced “submission” can be extremely damaging–and very unfairly, it’s the most damaging to the people who try hardest. So, that’s why I am very quick to set out the orange traffic cones when the subject comes up.

The bold is my point of all of this.

After my divorce I did not date for the better part of a decade.

why?

I knew what MY BITTER MEANT

I knew that I would protect myself at the expense of my lady…

Now unfortunately most people don’t care men or women. In fact I here most of these arguments and a few are some poor simple woman who got with a horrible dude but in most the woman later tells how she "got better?

she “calmed down”

Sometimes we elicit things, If I am a jerk to my woman eventually she will be a witch to me.

Now in a fallen world the question becomes percentages!

I no matter how good have something bad about me right? As you do about you!

So if we get together and I am 51% bad and you are 10% bad

Yes perhaps you can talk of my evils!

But what if it is I am 20% bad and you are 30%???

Now as you expose me to this extra 10 I will slowly respond which becomes and increase on my part from 20 -30

SO what would you do? RESPOND and now 40

And the cycle continues.

the difference is in out culture in the end when you two have made each other terrible the man is bigger and some years ago some men had some rights or something…

SO THEREFORE the man destroyed this “poor innocent girl”

Now I am also reminded of a story from a secular standpoint

A man found his wife working at a brothel in Amsterdam! Because HE ALWAYS goes to brothels…

They were both mad at each other and both got divorced!!!

WHAT?!?!?!? WHY?!?!?!?!?

They are perfect for each other! But in Magneto syndrome they both thought they were “wronged” whereas I consider them equal

[/QUOTE]

 

[LethalMouse]

Lethal Mouse,

One more thing for the night.

I don’t think you understand how powerful the programming I’m talking about is. Until very recently, I just wasn’t capable of telling my husband “no” without it being a very big deal. Today, he can make a suggestion, and I can say “no” and be very nice about it and go about my business, but I grew up in a Protestant home where I literally never heard my mom tell my dad “no.” (They had lots of fights, but I never heard my mom say no to any request.) So my programming is to believe that if I tell my husband “no” that’s a big scary deal.

On top of that, my husband had no idea that I felt like I could not say no to minor requests. He’d pile on all these little requests that he could do as well as me (or better) and I was internally very resentful. But, he had no idea that I thought I couldn’t say “no” to that stuff and that I was seething with resentment–he thought that he could ask me a favor, just like he could ask any friend, and I could say yes or no at will, because his idea of wifely submission did not involve fulfilling all minor requests. But, it took 15+ years of being married to him before we actually had that conversation, as my husband and I come from radically different families of origin, so we didn’t even realize that it was an issue.

The world has programmed me for many things.

In fact I am a slothful Glutton “because” the our society has set the bar low.

I do not blame society, I blame me.

I was not a practicing Catholic “because” my family, friends were all cafeteria and a myriad of other externals

I do not blame that, I blame me

I could go one, but the totality of truth is the only thing that is to blame for what I do is ME

ME is all there is.

 

[Xantippe]

My issue is that this mindset creates one in which we accuse all of being unworthy of everything. And blind follow is not Christian submission or Jesus would not have let people discuss and understand what He was saying.

No he should not!

In some cases, but in other cases it might need be…
I think this is like stealing examples made on this forum, stealing is wrong.
Taking a shirt off a clothesline to stop the bleeding of an accident victim in a pinch… is not wrong.

All things are situational to at least some degree, and I am usually talking about saving the life.

Some hear only walking into a bank and loading sacks with other people’s money

Again situational. But the key here is groundless and limits. And an issue of respect… perhaps one involving failed humanity but tbh if I am dealing with a woman who disagrees with me groundlessly [truly for the sake of this point] then I will work with her out of love…to a point. But at some point you will see someone as always groundless, and then what? if she is at a point of having no real stance but has vague groundless worries she is either going to cause him to lose respect for her opinion OR she will need to be strong enough to beat him down. either way it is disordered…

I have broken up with one woman for such as she groundlessly argued and admitted it was partially done to “keep me in check” that I may not get agreed with too much and get a big head…

However with all that info I knew if I was right and she agreed how big could my head get?
If I was right and she disagreed for no reason and she was wrong 9/10 times how could I care for her opinion??? I let her go because I did not want to actually get a big head.

My greatest efforts in life are to make sure I never become blind to whether the table is or is not there… if I see something risking my becoming human in that regard I fear it because the day I become what you talk about is the day I failed at life.

But HE is on a one way track to addictions and mental disorders… Why would you not buy all the Avon stock? His opinion is simply one of an insane tyrannical oppressor…

It is usually both as noted by most older women “She keeps going for those guys, just wait near 30 we all learn”

In this case it was not insulting, it was her who buys it for him because it is their literal dynamic… nice twist though

I am on CAF speaking of theological correctness not people’s disorders

1. I think it’s a fine thing for BOTH spouses to have a yes mentality and I think in the normal course of events both spouses deserve a lot of benefit of the doubt, but at some point the antennae go up and yes, certain decisions need to be reviewed. (For both spouses.)

That’s just using common sense and it makes for better quality decision-making.

My husband and I started doing that very seriously with financial stuff about 9 years ago (when we started Dave Ramsey) and it has been excellent for our bottom line.

1. If a spouse has continual groundless concerns, maybe it’s time for therapy and marriage counseling all around? Or even just see a priest for some basic mediation?

There is no such thing as a happy relationship where either one spouse’s aspirations are always being immediately squashed or the worried spouse is being forced to deal with the consequences of an impulsive spouse Lone Ranger-ing all the time. These days, those couples don’t make it.

Plus, a lot of the time, it’s not that the thing can’t ever happen, but that it can’t happen NOW. Putting a timeline on when the thing can happen is a reasonable compromise. For example, in the $25k truck example, there are a lot of couples that can’t do that now, but could definitely hope to do it in the future.

1. LM, with all due respect, you have dated a lot of trashy women.

 

[LethalMouse]

1. I think it’s a fine thing for BOTH spouses to have a yes mentality and I think in the normal course of events both spouses deserve a lot of benefit of the doubt, but at some point the antennae go up and yes, certain decisions need to be reviewed. (For both spouses.)

That’s just using common sense and it makes for better quality decision-making.

My husband and I started doing that very seriously with financial stuff about 9 years ago (when we started Dave Ramsey) and it has been excellent for our bottom line.

1. If a spouse has continual groundless concerns, maybe it’s time for therapy and marriage counseling all around? Or even just see a priest for some basic mediation?

There is no such thing as a happy relationship where either one spouse’s aspirations are always being immediately squashed or the worried spouse is being forced to deal with the consequences of an impulsive spouse Lone Ranger-ing all the time. These days, those couples don’t make it.

Plus, a lot of the time, it’s not that the thing can’t ever happen, but that it can’t happen NOW. Putting a timeline on when the thing can happen is a reasonable compromise. For example, in the $25k truck example, there are a lot of couples that can’t do that now, but could definitely hope to do it in the future.

1. LM, with all due respect, you have dated a lot of trashy women.

I agree with all this including 3

My only point is that you base the majority of your stance on all men being the male equivalent of my women of past.

I am stating things assuming neither is the horrible types we have bothe experienced.

Tis my point

 

[Xantippe]

The world has programmed me for many things.

In fact I am a slothful Glutton “because” the our society has set the bar low.

I do not blame society, I blame me.
.

Is this really “the world,” though? When I didn’t feel like I could tell my husband “no,” that wasn’t actually me being bad, that was me trying to be good.

In practice, it didn’t work. I’d do the stuff for him that he could do just as well and feel resentful (especially when he would not do things I asked him to do for me that I actually needed badly), and then eventually I’d get mad. It was just a terrible fit for my actual personality. I do a lot better by calmly saying “no” when the requests aren’t convenient or realistic, but back in the day, whenever my husband asked me for something inconvenient that I could see he could do just as well as me, I’d go into fight-or-flight mode. I was completely stressed out by the conflict between my needs and the request that I felt like I was duty bound to fulfill unless I could demonstrate that it wasn’t feasible–which often meant that I felt like I needed to have a big “discussion” and justify my not doing something, rather than just saying “no” and moving on. I get stressed out even talking about this! And, as I mentioned earlier, it turned out that my husband didn’t even realize that I felt compelled to do this stuff–it was totally invisible to him that I was experiencing all this inner conflict.

We talked about this a couple years ago, and he had really honestly thought that I never submitted to him and he felt bad about me not being submissive. The thing was, unless I had hired a parade and sky writers, he wouldn’t have realized that I was crushing my will down to do what he asked me to do over and over again. That’s very similar to Captain Janeway’s husband–he simply had no idea what kind of toll that was taking on her, because in that system, wives are supposed to offer sweet, smiling acquiescence, no matter what kind of hell they are being dragged through.

What I’ve been trying to get through to you is that there are a million ways to do submission badly, so that people and marriages get hurt when they don’t need to be hurt. It’s a very, very dangerous double black diamond area and I do not recommend it to beginners.

For example, there’s a thread running right now here

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1018665

from a young mother who is having trouble getting help from her husband, and the standard Protestant submission advice to a wife in trouble would be, “Submit!” Meaning, do what he says, do everything at home, don’t expect any help, don’t ask for help, submit harder, pray more, submit more, pray more, submit harder…

That way lies madness.

Fortunately, CAF advice usually doesn’t sound like that. Have a look at that thread and see if you disagree with the advice. I don’t hold with the laundry/dish strike people (because she has to be home all day with the mess, and I think it will be harder on her than him), but I think it’s generally pretty sound and it has a pretty good chance of working. What would you suggest different? How would you make it more submissive-y? Would that improve things at all?

Wifely submission is so fraught with peril and misunderstandings that I really have to advise a different course (especially for young wives or new mothers):

–Be nice!
–Be loving!
–Be respectful!
–Be fair!
–Make sure your spouse knows what’s going on!
–Follow the Golden Rule!

That’s a pretty big deal right there.

I am much sweeter and much more respectful to my husband nowadays because that’s what I’m prioritizing. I’m not wasting huge amounts of effort trying to crush myself.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with all this including 3

**My only point is that you base the majority of your stance on all men being the male equivalent of my women of past.
**

I am stating things assuming neither is the horrible types we have bothe experienced.

Tis my point

No, I just think that allowing people to treat you badly encourages them to treat you badly. And it’s actually not very loving toward them, because it’s creating an occasion of sin for them.

By the way, there’s a really good book entitled “Boundaries in Marriage” that I have to recommend. Their model is respect, kindness and dignity for both spouses–a wonderful idea!

 

[LethalMouse]

Is this really “the world,” though? When I didn’t feel like I could tell my husband “no,” that wasn’t actually me being bad, that was me trying to be good.

In practice, it didn’t work. I’d do the stuff for him that he could do just as well and feel resentful (especially when he would not do things I asked him to do for me that I actually needed badly), and then eventually I’d get mad. It was just a terrible fit for my actual personality. I do a lot better by calmly saying “no” when the requests aren’t convenient or realistic, but back in the day, whenever my husband asked me for something inconvenient that I could see he could do just as well as me, I’d go into fight-or-flight mode. I was completely stressed out by the conflict between my needs and the request that I felt like I was duty bound to fulfill unless I could demonstrate that it wasn’t feasible–which often meant that I felt like I needed to have a big “discussion” and justify my not doing something, rather than just saying “no” and moving on. I get stressed out even talking about this! And, as I mentioned earlier, it turned out that my husband didn’t even realize that I felt compelled to do this stuff–it was totally invisible to him that I was experiencing all this inner conflict.

We talked about this a couple years ago, and he had really honestly thought that I never submitted to him and he felt bad about me not being submissive. The thing was, unless I had hired a parade and sky writers, he wouldn’t have realized that I was crushing my will down to do what he asked me to do over and over again. That’s very similar to Captain Janeway’s husband–he simply had no idea what kind of toll that was taking on her, because in that system, wives are supposed to offer sweet, smiling acquiescence, no matter what kind of hell they are being dragged through.

What I’ve been trying to get through to you is that there are a million ways to do submission badly, so that people and marriages get hurt when they don’t need to be hurt. It’s a very, very dangerous double black diamond area and I do not recommend it to beginners.

For example, there’s a thread running right now here

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1018665

from a young mother who is having trouble getting help from her husband, and the standard Protestant submission advice to a wife in trouble would be, “Submit!” Meaning, do what he says, do everything at home, don’t expect any help, don’t ask for help, submit harder, pray more, submit more, pray more, submit harder…

That way lies madness.

Fortunately, CAF advice usually doesn’t sound like that. Have a look at that thread and see if you disagree with the advice. I don’t hold with the laundry/dish strike people (because she has to be home all day with the mess, and I think it will be harder on her than him), but I think it’s generally pretty sound and it has a pretty good chance of working. What would you suggest different? How would you make it more submissive-y? Would that improve things at all?

Wifely submission is so fraught with peril and misunderstandings that I really have to advise a different course (especially for young wives or new mothers):

–Be nice!
–Be loving!
–Be respectful!
–Be fair!
–Make sure your spouse knows what’s going on!
–Follow the Golden Rule!

That’s a pretty big deal right there.

I am much sweeter and much more respectful to my husband nowadays because that’s what I’m prioritizing. I’m not wasting huge amounts of effort trying to crush myself.

The bold sums up my Magneto syndrome. More evil os done as good than evil day in day out.

Then where does that end? Does the young mother speak truths? Idk I have no crystal ball…

Is she in need of help from a horrid man?

Or is she a demanding slave driver not being catered to?

True statement:

I told my exwife she didn’t need my help carrying groceries while pregnant!!!

I am horrible geez wth LM that is terrible!!!

(My exwife was 2 weeks pregant TWO WEEKS and said she could no longer ever grocery shop while I was at work because she can’t do anything for herself)

Does that change it? Hmmm

A friend of mine got mad at his wife for not cooking dinner becasue she wasnt feeling good one day…

Horrible!!!

(He said it was fine and after cooking for a week he asked her what’s up and she said he was okay with her not cooking when she wasnt feeling good so why cant he keep cooking)

Meh nuetralish? He still shouldnt realy want her to be always cooking geez…

(He worked 12+ hour shifts supporting her a stay at home mom, supporting her kid from another man he took as his own and their shared child and she was home all day)

He sounds a bit better now?

MAGNETO SYNDROME IS POWERFUL!!!

When the world teaches the evils of man, the table is NEVER there EVER if a man sees it.

When we group centric ourselves we see ONLY half the story in extra tilt.

You hear a woman needs help and ONLY see a poor woman in need of help.

I see a woman who MAY be just that

A woman who MAY be half bad with a half bad hubby

Or a woman who MAY be Magneto

 

[Xantippe]

The bold sums up my Magneto syndrome. More evil os done as good than evil day in day out.

Then where does that end? Does the young mother speak truths? Idk I have no crystal ball…

**Is she in need of help from a horrid man?

Or is she a demanding slave driver not being catered to?**

True statement:

I told my exwife she didn’t need my help carrying groceries while pregnant!!!

I am horrible geez wth LM that is terrible!!!

(My exwife was 2 weeks pregant TWO WEEKS and said she could no longer ever grocery shop while I was at work because she can’t do anything for herself)

Does that change it? Hmmm

A friend of mine got mad at his wife for not cooking dinner becasue she wasnt feeling good one day…

Horrible!!!

(He said it was fine and after cooking for a week he asked her what’s up and she said he was okay with her not cooking when she wasnt feeling good so why cant he keep cooking)

Meh nuetralish? He still shouldnt realy want her to be always cooking geez…

(He worked 12+ hour shifts supporting her a stay at home mom, supporting her kid from another man he took as his own and their shared child and she was home all day)

He sounds a bit better now?

MAGNETO SYNDROME IS POWERFUL!!!

When the world teaches the evils of man, the table is NEVER there EVER if a man sees it.

When we group centric ourselves we see ONLY half the story in extra tilt.

You hear a woman needs help and ONLY see a poor woman in need of help.

I see a woman who MAY be just that

A woman who MAY be half bad with a half bad hubby

Or a woman who MAY be Magneto

I have to say that I wasn’t really able to do much of anything while pregnant–I didn’t really have the mental wherewithal to do it–I get really mentally fuzzy while pregnant and physically exhausted. from the very beginning of pregnancy–in fact, if you look it up, you’ll find that that is one of the symptoms of early pregnancy.

americanpregnancy.org/your-pregnancy/fatigue-during-pregnancy/

“Although experience with fatigue tends to vary, most women will feel more tired than usual during their pregnancy. Fatigue during pregnancy is most common during the first trimester. It tends to go away during the second trimester, but will usually return in the third trimester.”

“During early pregnancy, hormonal changes are likely the cause of fatigue. Your body is producing more blood to carry nutrients to your growing baby. Your blood sugar levels and blood pressure are also lower. Hormones, especially increased progesterone levels, are responsible for making you sleepy. In addition to the physical changes occurring in your body, emotional changes can contribute to decreased energy.”

So, it’s quite possible that your ex-wife genuinely needed some hand-holding.

About the 12-hour shift thing–when I was a kid we idolized my workaholic dad. Now that I’m all grown up and have a family of my own, I realize that there was a little problem–namely that my mom was working all the time my dad was working. The longer he worked, the longer she had to be with three kids by herself. That’s how it works when you have kids.

 

[LethalMouse]

No, I just think that allowing people to treat you badly encourages them to treat you badly. And it’s actually not very loving toward them, because it’s creating an occasion of sin for them.

By the way, there’s a really good book entitled “Boundaries in Marriage” that I have to recommend. Their model is respect, kindness and dignity for both spouses–a wonderful idea!

The description you give sounds good

But the title, makes me think of a mix of magneto syndrom and the love languages thing.

You see if I would not have a boundary to you

But you would have it to me

I would see you as some form of bad

Maybe not malintent, but maybe not in love with me, maybe you don’t trust me etc…

Then what would I do? How do I deal with the hurt?

The bible says anmbout love not having retribution… the bible also says don’t steal and we humans do…

So how long can I deal with hurt before I retaliate via adding boundaries that are false? Boundaries that are put just to even the score?

Then since those boundaries are to me a show of lack of love I would have guilt and resent. As I amm guilty to not love you rightly and resentful you dont love me amd made me do something I find contrary.

I mentioned an arguement with a lady in which her form of love sounded like my form of distaste.

Her boundaries might due to many psychological factors be beyond mine. But is there right/wrong???

In my ideal anyway the way it would “look” to a secular observer is that I would seem “whipped” by my wife.

To the same at other moments my wife would seem a kept woman who Xantippe would want to liberate.

Now here does come the problem, I am pretty good at the “whipped” part in my views. And in part of that is I expect nothing from someone that I do not impose upon myself.

So the item is not as important as the pojnt here but I had an ex gf.

I if I commit, my phone is not private. It is a trust, love etc thing. I have nothing to hide so my phone becomes open to her that I commit to.

I touched her phone, I had no thoughts of wrong doing on her part, I had no intent to search it, no intent to do anything whatsoever other than look at the way the apps were on an iphone because I only had android and it occured to me at the time I hadnt looked at an iPhone.

Oh how she initiated a boundary.

Now things changed. Why the boundary? Why am I giving her more than she me? What is all this?

We have a society of disorders and boundaries and roghteousness…

It makes me sad.

 

[LethalMouse]

I have to say that I wasn’t really able to do much of anything while pregnant–I didn’t really have the mental wherewithal to do it–I get really mentally fuzzy while pregnant and physically exhausted. from the very beginning of pregnancy–in fact, if you look it up, you’ll find that that is one of the symptoms of early pregnancy.

americanpregnancy.org/your-pregnancy/fatigue-during-pregnancy/

“Although experience with fatigue tends to vary, most women will feel more tired than usual during their pregnancy. Fatigue during pregnancy is most common during the first trimester. It tends to go away during the second trimester, but will usually return in the third trimester.”

“During early pregnancy, hormonal changes are likely the cause of fatigue. Your body is producing more blood to carry nutrients to your growing baby. Your blood sugar levels and blood pressure are also lower. Hormones, especially increased progesterone levels, are responsible for making you sleepy. In addition to the physical changes occurring in your body, emotional changes can contribute to decreased energy.”

So, it’s quite possible that your ex-wife genuinely needed some hand-holding.

About the 12-hour shift thing–when I was a kid we idolized my workaholic dad. Now that I’m all grown up and have a family of my own, I realize that there was a little problem–namely that my mom was working all the time my dad was working. The longer he worked, the longer she had to be with three kids by herself. That’s how it works when you have kids.

I gave 3 possibilities to a woman’s story in that one of then was her being 100% right

One was her being equal to her husband in right/wrong

And only 1 being her being wrong.

You only saw tbe chances for the men to be wrong.

I was 2/3rds giving a woman a benift of a doubt and you gave 100% negativity to the men.

You see this is my point, no man can be right to thise whi have that view.

Although not overly relevant to sooth the particulars.

The pregnancy thing was pick and choose. It was only used as a power play and such things only came about if otherwise mad at me.

“Forgot to bring me a cookie with that milk??? Guess what you are going grocery shopping because I can’t function”

Type thing… I’ll note she fired both of our marriage counselors which is usually a oretty good indicator of thibgs thiugh you may have a reason why women need to do so while the man is evil…

The other was not at all a workaholic, he was stuck with so. She spent all day myspacing other men and eventually left him.

Then after leaving him for a bumch of addict scumm types when her life was in shambles she stumbled back to him to ride his love for a comfortable life she now enjoys…

But I am sure you can tell me how sshe is still being wronged by him…

Then see we have the ever bearing excuses of life. I once noted how arrogsnt people with"anxiety" are. CATER TO ME NOW!!!

It is kind of like how a man pretends to be blind on a street corner and makes more money than me. Being “weak” gives him more power.

Now EVERYONE has an anxiety, restless legs, a hangnail, a backstory, ADD.

No one is responsibke FOR ANYTHING

I havent seen one lazy person who didnt have a “reason”

I dont meet fat people who eat too much, they “have a reason”

Addicts arent selfish people who value fun more than anythibg else they “have a condition”

Everyhtung is a condition. It works for humans, but I believe soneday when we see God for judgement many people will be culpable no matter how much they try to convince God otherwise.

 

[LethalMouse]

Oh and Xantippe I just read the woman in need thread.

From her story I couldnt post this there despite my temotatiin because her husband sounds in need of a bit of work as well. Most notably weekend computer time and such though it could be an escaoe… idk.

Anyway, my dad was a legit single dad, dead mom. Worked and raised the kid NO HELP.

My dad has NEVER understood why it is “so hard” for a stay at home mom to function in modern times.

This goes to my everyone has a reason thing.

Here is my dad working mother and father combined into one. He said yeah it is “hard” but we do it.

Culture says a stay at home mom needs help because her life is overwhelming.

Peggy Bundy was overwhelmed moving a finger. Doesn’t make it true… Magneto

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I have a question to asked. According to our Catholic teachings, is true that the wife should be “submissive” and act according what the husband says and cannot do other wise?

Also, what are the roles, morals, behaviour does Catholic women should be?
As well as for Catholic men?

I’m asking because I was reading Ephesians 5:22-33.
And it is a confusing according to “two to become one fresh” , does it contradict?

Please help me and explain it as much details as you could.

Men are considered the head of the household. Although we are supposed to be submissive men are called to love their wives the way Christ loves the church. Ephesians 5:25. This part of scripture seems to be glossed over or IGNORED. Colossians 3:18-19 describes male and female behavior in marriage. 1 Corinthians 7: 1-16 describes marital behavior between man and wife.