What doesn't make sense to you?

  • Thread starter Thread starter PJM
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
P

PJM

Guest
What dear friend does not make sense to you about Catholicism?

GBY

Patrick
 
  1. Maybe confession to a Priest. For the reason that every time I’ve been I am always given absolution but have committed the same sin again. Which makes me think that my intentions were not pure last time round and therefore how could I have been forgiven then. In other words how does the Priest know if your intentions are right at the time he gives you absolution.
  2. Why Catholics do not sing with the gusto that some Protestants do. I am generalising here I know, but I can only go on my experience of having been both Protestant and then Catholic. Honestly we have the most beautiful culture and all the history to back us up. The best apologetics also, but it seems sometimes to me that we are on the back foot.
 
There are a lot of things that don’t make sense to me. The biggest one is the practice of praying to saints and/or angels. I recently asked for prayer and I saw people invoking St. Michael, which was surprising. I think prayers should be offered to God alone, but it doesn’t matter which person of the Trinity it’s offered to.

I worship all three persons of the Trinity. I worship the Father by thanking Him for predestining me to become a believer. I worship the Son by thanking Him for taking upon Himself the penalty that I deserve and for interceding for me. I worship the Holy Spirit by praying in a language that’s beyond human perception (speaking in tongues). The Holy Spirit knows how to interpret deep sighs and groans; some of the sweetest times I’ve had in prayer were when I prayed in tongues.

I don’t see catholics as having hunger for worshiping God through the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Instead, they seek help from saints or angels and find fulfillment in that. In my view, that’s a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing.
 
drac16 said:
There are a lot of things that don’t make sense to me. The biggest one is the practice of praying to saints and/or angels. I recently asked for prayer and I saw people invoking St. Michael, which was surprising. I think prayers should be offered to God alone, but it doesn’t matter which person of the Trinity it’s offered to.

I worship all three persons of the Trinity. I worship the Father by thanking Him for predestining me to become a believer. I worship the Son by thanking Him for taking upon Himself the penalty that I deserve and for interceding for me. I worship the Holy Spirit by praying in a language that’s beyond human perception (speaking in tongues). The Holy Spirit knows how to interpret deep sighs and groans; some of the sweetest times I’ve had in prayer were when I prayed in tongues.

I don’t see catholics as having hunger for worshiping God through the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Instead, they seek help from saints or angels and find fulfillment in that. In my view, that’s a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing.
Click to expand...
I think you’re wrong about that hunger. Devout Catholics have a profound, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus that goes beyond what any words can describe. We receive Him in Holy Communion and adore Him at every Mass. Our faith is absolutely Christocentric. Devotion to Our Lady and the saints only draws us closer to Him. Do you ask other Christians to pray for you? This is fundamentally what it is…the saints in heaven, our brothers and sisters, who see God “face to face”, intercede for us, just as we on earth intercede for one another. Read Revelation 5…you’ll see saints in heaven interceding for those on earth. Its right there in Scripture.
 
drac16 said:
There are a lot of things that don’t make sense to me. The biggest one is the practice of praying to saints and/or angels. I recently asked for prayer and I saw people invoking St. Michael, which was surprising. I think prayers should be offered to God alone, but it doesn’t matter which person of the Trinity it’s offered to.

I worship all three persons of the Trinity. I worship the Father by thanking Him for predestining me to become a believer. I worship the Son by thanking Him for taking upon Himself the penalty that I deserve and for interceding for me. I worship the Holy Spirit by praying in a language that’s beyond human perception (speaking in tongues). The Holy Spirit knows how to interpret deep sighs and groans; some of the sweetest times I’ve had in prayer were when I prayed in tongues

I don’t see catholics as having hunger for worshiping God through the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Instead, they seek help from saints or angels and find fulfillment in that. In my view, that’s a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing.
Click to expand...
Hi Drac.

Firstly, I think you have associated with the wrong sort of Catholics. And I’m sorry those people have left such a poor impression on you.

Secondly, we ask for prayers of the Saints because the prayer of the righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16) and those in heaven have been perfected (Hebrews 12:23) so their prayers are powerful… And because we are one body, not one body on earth and one in heaven…and because God is God of the living, not the dead. (Mark 12:27).

And anytime a prayer is answered, God gets the glory in the Catholic faith. Think about the body…and how if you stub your toe, it hurts because the head(your brain) told you so. Jesus is the head, and therefore the control center and all this goes through Him, regardless. But we do appreciate the prayers of all our brothers and sisters in Christ, either here or in heaven.
 
Well I’m increasingly starting to doubt just about everything, but here are some things that don’t make much sense to me
  1. Papal infallability. Someone who can not come out with clear teachings (for instance on the divorced and remarried issue) can not be infallible.
  2. For that matter, any sense of apostolic succession. The Pope is nothing more than a CEO. A bishop is a regional manager in essence. The concept of apostolic succession makes no sense.
  3. The concepts of dogma and doctrine.
  4. The necessity of sacramental confession.
  5. Indulgences and the notion of accumulating merit.
  6. The keeping of relics.
  7. The notion that any traditions (with or without a capital T) can be equal to scripture.
  8. The notion of suffering being in any sense a positive thing.
 
peter26 said:
Well I’m increasingly starting to doubt just about everything, but here are some things that don’t make much sense to me
  1. Papal infallability. Someone who can not come out with clear teachings (for instance on the divorced and remarried issue) can not be infallible.
  2. For that matter, any sense of apostolic succession. The Pope is nothing more than a CEO. A bishop is a regional manager in essence. The concept of apostolic succession makes no sense.
  3. The concepts of dogma and doctrine.
  4. The necessity of sacramental confession.
  5. Indulgences and the notion of accumulating merit.
  6. The keeping of relics.
  7. The notion that any traditions (with or without a capital T) can be equal to scripture.
  8. The notion of suffering being in any sense a positive thing.
Click to expand...
Each of those topics deserves its own thread. In regards to #1, I don’t think you quite understand papal infallibility. Pope Francis has not exercised it in his teaching…he is normally quite fallible. In fact a couple of Popes have been implicated in heresy. This doesn’t contradict papal infallibility which applies to very rare circumstances. First and foremost, the Church as a whole is infallible.
In regards to #2, this isn’t true…or at least it shouldn’t be. While the First Vatican Council defined papal primacy, the Second Vatican Council clarified that the local bishops are NOT to be considered mere deputies of the Pope. They are vicars of Christ in their own right over the local Church. The Pope does have authority over the whole Church, including over other bishops, but that does not diminish their own God-given authority. For the most part, the Pope works in union with his brother bishops, and not apart from them. You’ll notice that the present Pope has not bound the Church on the issue of communion for the divorced and remarried. The debate continues among the bishops of the world…
 
I’m ok with the idea of Purgatory (although I don’t believe in it) and I’m not going to have a serious problem with the idea of earned indulgences reducing the time one spends in Purgatory.

But two things about all that don’t make sense to me:
  1. How can the Church know which actions will reduce the time spent in Purgatory?
  2. How could the Church know the length of time that such actions would reduce one’s time in Purgatory?
The Church says there is a place called Purgatory to purify souls destined for Heaven. What it can’t say is what that purification process is or how it works – including if it involves time. It won’t claim anything for a soul after death apart from stating that saints are in Heaven. Yet with all of this missing knowledge it has in the past claimed that engaging in certain indulgences will either reduce one’s time in Purgatory by X years or that it’s the equivilant of X years of penance. These indulgences seem incredibly arbitrary.
 
Mike_from_NJ said:
I’m ok with the idea of Purgatory (although I don’t believe in it) and I’m not going to have a serious problem with the idea of earned indulgences reducing the time one spends in Purgatory.

But two things about all that don’t make sense to me:
  1. How can the Church know which actions will reduce the time spent in Purgatory?
  2. How could the Church know the length of time that such actions would reduce one’s time in Purgatory?
The Church says there is a place called Purgatory to purify souls destined for Heaven. What it can’t say is what that purification process is or how it works – including if it involves time. It won’t claim anything for a soul after death apart from stating that saints are in Heaven. Yet with all of this missing knowledge it has in the past claimed that engaging in certain indulgences will either reduce one’s time in Purgatory by X years or that it’s the equivilant of X years of penance. These indulgences seem incredibly arbitrary.
Click to expand...
#1) The Church knows because of the Lord’s promise to Her: whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…. God respects the Church’s decision on what actions can gain an indulgence because of the authority He gave Her.

#2) This is a common misconception. The Church doesn’t claim to know how much “time” can be “shaved off” in Purgatory. When the Church, in times past, assigned a certain number of days to each indulgence, She was granting that indulgence the value of “x” days of penance on earth. As in, if you say this simple prayer and meet the other criteria for the indulgence, God will treat it as if you just performed 120 days of prayer and fasting. You will help yourself or another soul in purgatory just as much as you would have had you completed all 120 days of penance. Of course in modern times the Church simply grants “plenary” (complete) and “partial” indulgences, leaving the specifics to God’s judgment.

In the ancient Church, sins often had set penances. In Diocese X, the sin of adultery may have resulted in 8 years of penance. Bishops, by that same power of binding and loosing, could reduce the required penance. Indulgences evolved from this concept, together with the ancient concept of praying for the dead.
 
drac16 said:
There are a lot of things that don’t make sense to me. The biggest one is the practice of praying to saints and/or angels. I recently asked for prayer and I saw people invoking St. Michael, which was surprising.** I think prayers should be offered to God alone**, but it doesn’t matter which person of the Trinity it’s offered to.

I worship all three persons of the Trinity. I worship the Father by thanking Him for predestining me to become a believer. I worship the Son by thanking Him for taking upon Himself the penalty that I deserve and for interceding for me. I worship the Holy Spirit by praying in a language that’s beyond human perception (speaking in tongues). The Holy Spirit knows how to interpret deep sighs and groans; some of the sweetest times I’ve had in prayer were when I prayed in tongues.

I don’t see catholics as having hunger for worshiping God through the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Instead, they seek help from saints or angels and find fulfillment in that. In my view, that’s a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing.
Click to expand...
Have you asked anyone to pray for you Drac?

MJ
 
twf said:
#1) The Church knows because of the Lord’s promise to Her: whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven…. God respects the Church’s decision on what actions can gain an indulgence because of the authority He gave Her.
Click to expand...
The point of Purgatory is to purify a soul earmarked for Heaven. What happens if after taking into account the indulgence and the amount of penance the indulgence is said to give that the soul is not yet pure? Is God going to let in a not-fully-pure soul? If so, then what’s the point of Purgatory? If not, then why was the Chruch inaccurate in assigning a certain length of penance with a particular act?
#2) This is a common misconception. The Church doesn’t claim to know how much “time” can be “shaved off” in Purgatory. When the Church, in times past, assigned a certain number of days to each indulgence, She was granting that indulgence the value of “x” days of penance on earth. As in, if you say this simple prayer and meet the other criteria for the indulgence, God will treat it as if you just performed 120 days of prayer and fasting. You will help yourself or another soul in purgatory just as much as you would have had you completed all 120 days of penance.
Click to expand...
I did mention that in my original post:
Mike from NJ:
or that it’s the equivilant of X years of penance.
Click to expand...
Of course in modern times the Church simply grants “plenary” (complete) and “partial” indulgences, leaving the specifics to God’s judgment.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t negate the fact that the Church did quantify for most of its existence a specific length of time for each indulgence . Is there a reason they changed to vaguer partial indulgences instead of specific ones?
In the ancient Church, sins often had set penances. In Diocese X, the sin of adultery may have resulted in 8 years of penance. Bishops, by that same power of binding and loosing, could reduce the required penance. Indulgences evolved from this concept, together with the ancient concept of praying for the dead.
Click to expand...
But they came up with certain actions (e.g. attending certain locations) and came up with certain lengths of time. Is there are a rationale to show how they quantified such things?
 
rweidn said:
  1. Maybe confession to a Priest. For the reason that every time I’ve been I am always given absolution but have committed the same sin again. Which makes me think that my intentions were not pure last time round and therefore how could I have been forgiven then. In other words how does the Priest know if your intentions are right at the time he gives you absolution.
Click to expand...
Some sins my friend require EXTREME prayer.

Keep and USE the Rosary, even in bed and in the shower. Ask our Blessed Mother to come to your aid.

Sins of BAD-Habit, still remain serious sins; HOWEVER they are NOT uncommon, and DO attach LESS culpability [Seriousness of the guilt]. So Pray much; KEEP confessing and with Grace **you and God **can overcome these bad habits.
  1. Why Catholics do not sing with the gusto that some Protestants do. I am generalising here I know, but I can only go on my experience of having been both Protestant and then Catholic. Honestly we have the most beautiful culture and all the history to back us up. The best apologetics also, but it seems sometimes to me that we are on the back foot.
Click to expand...
I’ve had the SAME thought from time to time.

We [the Church] seems to no-longer TEACH to sing “Is to PRAY TWICE”🙂 and that my friend is SAD!

Thanks for sharing!

GBY

Patrck
 
drac16 said:
There are a lot of things that don’t make sense to me. The biggest one is the practice of praying to saints and/or angels. I recently asked for prayer and I saw people invoking St. Michael, which was surprising. I think prayers should be offered to God alone, but it doesn’t matter which person of the Trinity it’s offered to.
Click to expand...
This is COMMON concern among non-Catholics, primarily due to what you have been taught; application of LOGIC alone AND not fully, or rightly understanding what we Catholics do has a GOOD reason

“ R” Catholics Idolaters ?
By Pat Miron

There are a great many charges leveled against the Catholic Church on an all to frequent basis by non-Catholic - Christians and others as well. Often out of ignorance; not knowing the logic and foundation for what we hold to be the singular truth. It’s what they have been told, so it’s what they believe. Among the more common charges is that we Catholics are “idolaters,” and the question before us is it true? After all we do “pray to Mary, the Mother of God,” and to Angels and Saints. So it would seem that their at least might be some grounds to support these charges. And there is plenty of evidence of statues, stained-glass windows, prayer-cards, religious art that seems to add credence to the charge.

The answer rest is in the terminology used. In the charges leveled is the word “Worship,” As in Catholics “Worship Mary.” This is an incorrect understanding of Catholic Practice. Catholics; like non-Catholic-Christians hold to the fact that “Worship” is reserved to God alone. So then; what is it that Catholics do, if it’s not “Worship?”

In the Book of Exodus, chapter Twenty we read this admonition: this command from God. “Exodus 20: And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”

Well that certainly seems clear enough? But is it REALLY? … The most basic, inviolable, indeed; Infallible rule for understanding the Bible correctly [as God Himself intends], is that Never-Ever can one part of the Bible contradict another portion. Where this even the slightest possibility, the Bible would be worthless as a tool for teaching or learning ones Faith. When ever this appears to take place we can be certain that it is we; not the bible that is in error.

So my friends lets turn to the book of Numbers; the same God giving direction to the same Moses.Num.21:8 -9 “And the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live. And here is another example of God’s Command to Moses: from the Book of Exodus no-less. Exod.25: 18-22 “And you shall make two cherubim [ANGELS] of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. … Exod.26: 1 "Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twined linen and blue and purple and scarlet stuff; with cherubim skillfully worked shall you make them.”

So what’s the deal here, we have God directing; actually commanding Moses to “MAKE and display IDOLS” to be used as God commands?

The explanation is in the CORRECT understanding of the term “Idols”. Go back and re-look at Exodus 20 and take note of the fact that God specifies “FALSE gods“; not just any images. What God prohibits is anything that is in competition to His God-Head. Images that lead one [or at least that is their intended purpose], are NOT prohibited because they are a means to a building a closer unity with God. It is the purpose of the image that determines if in fact it is an IDOL, or something that reminds us of heavenly things. Certainly Mary, the Saints, Angels all qualify as “holy things” that ought can, and ought to lead us in the direction of God; not towards any “false competing” gods. So statues, art, images of Saints and Mary are quite “OK” with God, as a means of gaining possible closer union with Him.

This discussion would be incomplete without an explanation of WHY we do what we do. To try to make the issue clear we will use the ”HAIL-MARY” [used in the Rosary] prayer, which is by far the most used prayer next to the LORDS PAYER, as our example of what we Catholics actually do, and why we do it.

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” *

Romans 12: 2 “Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. “

We do so because the practice is of GREAT benefit to US.

Mary & the Saints ADD their own prayers UNTOP of ours, and then personally present them to almighty God personally OUR behalf & increasing their efficacy [effectiveness], & their urgency.

GBY
Patrick

Due 2 space restrictions my reply is in 2 POST*
 
drac16 said:
MY REPLY pt 2 of 2
I don’t see catholics as having hunger for worshiping God through the gifts of the Spirit that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 12-14. Instead, they seek help from saints or angels and find fulfillment in that. In my view, that’s a misunderstanding of what Paul meant when he said to pray without ceasing.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
twf said:
I think you’re wrong about that hunger. Devout Catholics have a profound, intimate relationship with the Lord Jesus that goes beyond what any words can describe. We receive Him in Holy Communion and adore Him at every Mass. Our faith is absolutely Christocentric. Devotion to Our Lady and the saints only draws us closer to Him. Do you ask other Christians to pray for you? This is fundamentally what it is…the saints in heaven, our brothers and sisters, who see God “face to face”, intercede for us, just as we on earth intercede for one another. Read Revelation 5…you’ll see saints in heaven interceding for those on earth. Its right there in Scripture.
Click to expand...
THANK you!

well done!

GBY

Patrick
 
QUOTE=peter26;14551727]Well I’m increasingly starting to doubt just about everything, but here are some things that don’t make much sense to me

REPLY IN 2 POST for Length

Dear FRIEND in Christ;

WOW, THANKS for sharing!

I suspect you know that SPACE on CAF is limited. Still you deserve an in-depth answer to every point you raised. ALL are VALID.

So I will give a brief reply to each here BUT please look for a private message from me for greater in-depth information.
  1. Papal infallibility. Someone who cannot come out with clear teachings (for instance on the divorced and remarried issue) cannot be infallible
Click to expand...
I WILL address this issue PRIVATELY with you; It’s NOT an issue for a PUBLIC forum,

BUT will address Infallibility here

READ the following paying careful attention to the SINGULAR tense words the Catholic Bible Authors used INSPIRED by the HS

You can use this site for EASY lookup of these teachings

www.drbo.org/

Mt 10: 1-5

THEN verses 6-8

Mt 16:15-19

John 17:17-20 which is the DIRECT biblical foundation for Infallibility

NO OTHER CHURCH OR FAITH CAN CLAIM & SUPPORT HAVING JESUS HIMSELF PERSONALLY AS THE WARRANTY OF THE RCC TEACHING ONLY TRUTH ON FAITH & OR MORAL ISSUES ONLY

Then Mt 28: 18-20

Please look for a private message from ME

]QUOTE]2. For that matter, any sense of apostolic succession. The Pope is nothing more than a CEO. A bishop is a regional manager in essence. The concept of apostolic succession makes no sense.

Apostolic Succession was made an ABSOLUTE requirement by Jesus Himself. Hence it is a GREAT deal more than being merely a “CEO”

READ Mt 10:6-8 & COMPARE it to Mt 28:19-20 which COMMANDS NOW that the Apostles go & TEACH [commanded] ALL that Jesus Taught to THEM. Directly and exclusively, which can ONLY be accomplished through Succession.

** GOODLE “List of Popes**”

Further this model follows precisely the Sacred tradition of the OT where GOD always choose ONE man to lead HIS “chosen people.” Noah, Abram, Moses, Jacob, the Judges, Kings & Prophets, Leading to John the Baptist who introduced Jesus, WHO then selected HIS 12 Apostles AND founded His RCC and Instituted Papal Succession
  1. The concepts of dogma and doctrine
Click to expand...
1 Here is a good site for explanation

** ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=564105**

2 here are Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary definitions

therealpresence.org/dictionary/adict.htm

DOCTRINE. “Any truth taught by the Church as necessary for acceptance by the faithful. The truth may be either formally revealed (as the Real Presence), or a theological conclusion (as the canonization of a saint), or part of the natural law (as the sinfulness of contraception). In any case, what makes it doctrine is that the Church authority teaches that it is to be believed. This teaching may be done either solemnly in ex cathedra pronouncements or ordinarily in the perennial exercise of the Church’s magisterium or teaching authority. Dogmas are those doctrines which the Church proposes for belief as formally revealed by God. (Etym. Latin doctrina, teaching.)”

DOGMA. “Doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation. All dogmas, therefore, are formally revealed truths and promulgated as such by the Church. They are revealed either in Scripture or tradition, either explicitly (as the Incarnation) or implicitly (as the Assumption). Moreover, their acceptance by the faithful must be proposed as necessary for salvation. They may be taught by the Church in a solemn manner, as with the definition of the Immaculate Conception, or in an ordinary way, as with the constant teaching on the malice of taking innocent human life. (Etym. Latin dogma; from Greek dogma, declaration, decree” END QUOTES

**END of Pt 1 of 2 **

SEE Pt #2
 
QUOTE=peter26;14551727]Well I’m increasingly starting to doubt just about everything, but here are some things that don’t make much sense to me

**REPLY IN 2 POST for Length

THIS IS PT 2 OF 2**
  1. The necessity of sacramental confession
Click to expand...
Sacramental Confession directly Instituted by Christ is the NORM [God’s Way] for sin forgiveness.

It was not a “Jesus invention”, but follows OT tradition of using His Priest, BUT in a NEW fuller and more perfect manner, in the Role of sin forgiveness.

Please look up the following using THIS site

www.http://drbo.org/

Exo 28:1
Lev 5:16-18
1 Jn 1:8-9
1 Jn 5:16-17
Jn 20:19-23
Lk 5:16-26 using this site
  1. Indulgences and the notion of accumulating merit
Click to expand...
This flows FROM & THROUGH the direct & exclusive Power & Authority of being the holder of ALL of the Key’s to heavens access**. [Mt 16:18-19]** I AM NOT implying one has to be a Catholic to be saved; although Catholics have HUGE advantages, AND all salvation in an absolute & mysterious sense does FLOW through the RCC.

HERE is a good site for basic information:

Primer on Indulgences | Catholic Answers
  1. The keeping of relics [Sacramentals
Click to expand...
]

From Fr Hardon:

SACRAMENTAL. “Objects or actions that the Church uses after the manner of sacraments, in order to achieve through the merits of the faithful certain effects, mainly of a spiritual nature. They differ from sacraments in not having been instituted by Christ to produce their effect in virtue of the ritual performed. Their efficacy depends not on the rite itself, as in the sacraments, but on the influence of prayerful petition; that of the person who uses them and of the Church in approving their practice. The variety of sacramentals spans the whole range of times and places, words and actions, objects and gestures that, on the Church’s authority, draw not only on the personal dispositions of the individual but on the merits and prayers of the whole Mystical Body of Christ.”
  1. The notion that any traditions (with or without a capital T) can be equal to scripture
Click to expand...
1 The SAME God is the origin; “the author”, of BOTH

2 The Bible was NOT fully AUTHORED until the end of the 1st Century OR very early 2nd century

3 Christ died around AD 30-36 and the Church begin ACTIVELY and effectively upon HIS Death & Resurrection [Pentecost Sunday] before AD 40

4 There was NO complete bible for the FIRST several hundred years of the RCC

5 Even books of the bible were scarce and selectively used as the distance between the Catholic authors was great, the cost & availability of writing was signifient, illiteracy was the NORM, and the Church was under SEVERE persecution BOTH from the Jews & the Romans.

6 Were it NOT for [t] and "T"radition there would be no bible, which is a Catholic book.
  1. The notion of suffering being in any sense a positive thing.
Click to expand...
  1. The LESSON to “take up OUR crosses” is taught 6 times in the Bible STRESSING its importance for our possible salvation.
Mt 10:38
Mt 16:24
Mk 8:34
Mk 15:21
Lk 9:23
Lk 14:27I
  1. Life is THEE “God Test”
    Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “[7] everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made & the people whom I formed for myself
    that they might declare my praise”
  2. Everything that happens is either caused by God [good things] OR permitted by God as a TEST of OUR fidelity to Him and Love OF Him.
IF. If. We accept our crosses GRACE is forthcoming. IF we reject, or complain we lose the opportunity to MERIT God’s grace.

THAT dear friend is the upside to suffering. Christ SUFFERED, is it prudent to think that in our emulation of Christ, that WE should not? NO! …. No TEST = NO salvation!

God Bless you, LOOK for a PM from me
Patrick
[/quote]
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top