What doesn't make sense to you?

[PJM]

Well put! THANKS

Space is limited so I will be brief. If you desire a more in-depth reply, let me know

[1] What you are asking is WHY humanity exist AND are gifted a mind, intellect and freewill

Here’s the short answer

Isaiah 43: 7 &21
7 every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made. & 21 the people whom I formed for myself that **they might **declare my praise. [OUR freewill choice]

Genesis 1:26-27 teaches us that GOD freely choose to create man in His very own image" But God is SPIRIT [Jn 4:23-24], and man is mortal, SO HOW can this be?

Humanities “other self”; a mind, intellect and freewill; are ALL permanently attached to our Souls, like our GOD, & are spiritual realities, that are “spiritual” like God and immortal like God. If you doubt this describe YOUR freewill: what is its color, shape, size and weight? Can’t be done because they ARE spiritual realities; yet they exist.

The second part of the reason we exist as we do, is that in all of creations BILLIONS of things; only ONE, only humanity is enabled to:

Know of God {trough creation itself which exist for this precise purpose}

Then enabled to freely choose to actually KNOW God

Then choose to love or hate Him

So the purpose of our life then is "The GOD Test"

BECAUSE God has time & time again proven His PERFECT love for us; God is entitled to request {even expect but NOT demand} perfect love be returned to Him. “Love” to be perfect HAS to be freely given; hence our UNIQUE ability to choose:

Sir.15: [17] Before a man are life and death, and whichever he chooses will be given to him**

[2]The “REAL PRESENCE” is both a mystery and a miracle {actually 2 miracles} which is attested to by 5 different GOD inspired authors of the NT

**Mt 26
Mk 14
Lk 22
John6
Paul: 1st Cor **

GOOGLE “Eucharistic Miracles”

This belief by the Early Church is attested to in the bible; FIRST known as “the Breaking of the THEE Bread”

Acts.2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”

[3]** The reasons the Catholic Priesthood MUST [in an absolute sense] be reserved to male gender was Infallibly defined {Holy Spirit guided} by St John Paul II. In summary he listed the following REASONS WHY only a male gender person is ABLE to be a Catholic Priest**

1. “Holy Orders” [the Catholic Priesthood] is a SACRAMENT instituted by Jesus Christ, so no power on earth is able to override Christ decision
2. “Sacred Tradition”
   Throughout history GOD has freely chosen men for the priestly- role:
   Exod.28: 1 "Then bring near to you Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the people of Israel, to serve me as priests – Aaron and Aaron’s sons, Nadab and Abi’hu, Elea’zar and Ith’amar”

John.20 Verses 19 to 21 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples {see Mt 10:1-3} were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. [21] Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." {this IS literal}

1. Because Jesus HIMSELF is “Really, Truly {actually} and Substantially made present in CATHOLIC Holy Communion; AND because Jesus IS male -gender; ONLY a person who IS ALSO male-gender CAN make Jesus Present in Catholic Holy Communion: “This IS MY BODY”: Please see the 5 references given earlier.
   Sorry for the brief replies, but space is limited.

THANKS and God Bless YOU!

Patrick

Thanks for the correction;

I’ll try again, taking each question as a separate post

SORRY about being late, but I’ve has a serious case of the FLU the past few day’s. Still not 100%

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Almost all of it.

But for starters:

–the concept that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God would go through the trouble to make people, give them free will and flaws, punish them for choices they then make, then “save” them by sending himself back to earth as his won son, to be tortured.

–the belief that a manufactured wafer of flour, water, yeast, and salt can turn into the body of a man who lived 2000 years ago.

–the reasons given why adult female humans cannot be priests.

.

Originally Posted by DaddyGirl

[1]–the concept that an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving God would go through the trouble to make people, give them free will and flaws, punish them for choices they then make, then “save” them by sending himself back to earth as his won son, to be tortured.

[2]–the belief that a manufactured wafer of flour, water, yeast, and salt can turn into the body of a man who lived 2000 years ago.

[3]–the reasons given why adult female humans cannot be priests.

Actually Patrick, no…I was not asking that at all. The question of why humanity exists, etc, is very different from what I was talking about in my number-1.
Can you look again and see if you have any thoughts on what I wrote?

OK, so you’re asking “IF” God is as we claim ”good” How or Why do suffering and evil exist?
THE EXISTENCE OF EVIL DISCUSSED

To be clear: GOD described as “All good thongs perfected”, in order to be GOD, can only be good; can & only be the direct cause of good [when rightly understood]…
Goodness exist only because of God exist as do to love, humility & charity.
God cannot be GOD and be the cause of evil [suffering is a separate issue in this discussion]. So the overriding question for you it seems is why God permits evil and or suffering; “IF HES REALY GOOD?
”
A more basic and fundamental question might be: WHY does humanity even exist?
Simply put: LIFE “is thee GOD test.”

Isaiah 43: verses 7 &21
7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." 21the people whom I formed for myself that they MIGHT [are enabled to freely choose] declare my praise.” …. Sir.15:17 Before a man are life and death,
and whichever he chooses will be given to him.”

Isa.55: 6 to 10 "Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may[WILL] have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”

The above teachings are not to be minimized. Gen. 1:26-27 teaches clearly that GOD freely choose to create humanity “in His Own Image.” This is fulfilled by giving to man ALONE amidst the BILLIONS of created things in the universe a mind, intellect and freewill. Which are permanent attachments to the human Soul.
In the bible the term “predestination” means ONLY that God has foreknowledge; NOT that He has preselected who will and who will NOT be saved.

Mt 25:29 “For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away”
So in Divine JUSTICE because God as created humanity with the ability to Know “good & evil” and to FREELY choose between the two; GOD has every right to hold man accountable then for THEIR own choices.

So EVIL exist because man desires that EVIL exist.[Cain & Able, Adam & Eve]. It is in effect OVERRIDING GOD and God’s desire for man.

God is indeed “all knowing, loving and powerful”; He is also incapable of error, and MUST ALSO BE “JUST”

I would point out that, ”permitting” is NOT the same as tolerating / desiring evil.
It would be impossible for God to be GOD, to give humanity everything he needs to know good from evil and then be FREELY empowered to make those life & death choices, and then NOT permit man to use these powerful gifts of mind, intellect & FREEwill. …. Divine Justice would not permit GOD to override the gifts GIVEN precisely so that it is man, NOT God who choses our eternal and JUST reward.
Conclusion:

Evil exist rather than being a contradiction to GOD”S Perfect Goodness, it is reasonably profound and perfect example of GOD”S Perfect Goodness. [Q] Who but a good and perfect God would enable [gifted mind & intellect] and then empower [gifted freewill] HIS created and permit them to choose for themselves Eternal damnation or Eternal Heaven; influenced by His OFFER of grace? [A} ONLY a Good, a Perfectly GOOD God. To choose to know, to love & to serve Him, OR to hate, despise and disobey Him.

I would also point out that Christ Passion, Death & Resurrection was FAR more about ALL humanities Redemption; than about salvation which is dependent upon EACH Soul’s life-merits [another topic]

WHY EVIL IS DIFFERENT THAN SUFFERING

Suffering is a completely different issue.

Suffering can be sell imposed, imposed by others and yes, even Willed by GOD. WHY?
The common factor is suffering not found in evil, is that ALL suffering holds the potential; for redemptive merit. When and IF one accepts the suffering as being Divine Providence [despite its origin], there exist the POSSIBILITY of meriting GRACE for one’s self of for others [even more meritorious].

Hence there is a reason, a possible cause, and a potential benefit for all suffering when accepted and offered up.

God Bless you

Patrick

 

[Padres1969]

Well I’m increasingly starting to doubt just about everything, but here are some things that don’t make much sense to me

1. Papal infallability. Someone who can not come out with clear teachings (for instance on the divorced and remarried issue) can not be infallible.
2. For that matter, any sense of apostolic succession. The Pope is nothing more than a CEO. A bishop is a regional manager in essence. The concept of apostolic succession makes no sense.
3. The concepts of dogma and doctrine.
4. The necessity of sacramental confession.
5. Indulgences and the notion of accumulating merit.
6. The keeping of relics.
7. The notion that any traditions (with or without a capital T) can be equal to scripture.
8. The notion of suffering being in any sense a positive thing.

Have to agree with you on number 6. Even when I was Catholic I did not understand the obsession with Relics that many Catholics have. Both the concept of relics as if they’re something important itself. As well in particular that so many of them are of questionable authenticity anyway. And that’s just talking about the 1st and 2nd class/degree relics. I won’t even get into 3rd class relics…

 

[PJM]

You ask a question that also intrigues me. I hope you get a sincere response. I asked several months ago also how a priest who would have the stain of mortal stain on his soul through the actions of sexual abuse could be an effective “alter Christ” in achieving the Eucharist. Apparently it doesn’t matter how sinful the priest may be, he still can say the words of consecration and turn the wafer into the flesh of Jesus. [NOT completely TRUE but A separate topic]

[2]–the belief that a manufactured wafer of flour, water, yeast, and salt can turn into the body of a man who lived 2000 years ago.

Posted by PJM

[2]The “REAL PRESENCE” is both a mystery and a miracle {actually 2 miracles} which is attested to by 5 different GOD inspired authors of the NT

So…that doesn’t really explain to me why you believe it happens.

Yes, I’ve read all about “Eucharistic miracles” and I don’t find any more solid explanation in what I’ve read that gives it concrete sense

My dear "DG”

I wish to make clear that I am not in the conversion business; which I hold as GOD”S Sovereign domain.

The practice of religious beliefs is termed “FAITH” for a very good reason. God does not intend that everything be evident logically, or scientifically provable. Thus the Real Presence IS BOTH a miracle [actually two miracles] & a mystery. ….It is God’s intent that it DOES require an amount of Faith on our part. While I can and shall provide more evidence; keep in mind that by Christ intent [John 6:47-63] it is a Miracle & and MYSTERY

Isaiah 55: 8-9 again reminds US: …. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

WHY DOES THE EUCHARIST EXIST?

1Tim.2: 3 “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

DESPITE Christ sharing His GODLY Powers with the Apostles & their successors: GOD desires to REMAIN Present Mt 28:19-20, to insure the maximum number of Souls MIGHT BE {FREEWILL} influenced by Him [The Christ personally]

Matt.10: 1 to 2 + 8 “And he called to him his twelve apostles and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity. The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb’edee, and John his brother …. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons”

& AGAIN Jn. 17:18 “As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world”

& AGAIN Jn.20: 21 “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

These are Literal teachings

Know my friend that denial of it is paramount to denial of GOD Himself; who makes possible the necessary Faith to know, accept, live and love this reality. [Q] Are we to presume that the very same God that created the entire universe & created ALL living things and sustains their life is incapable of this?

Building upon my previous redone reply; God is “All Good things Perfected.” Hence because of this undeniable fact, Jesus /GOD empowers and permits HIS Catholic & Orthodox Priest to make Himself Preset in every Catholic and Orthodox Church throughout the entire world, is then the GREATEST of ALL possible good things, and it fulfills GOD”S Promise:

Mt 28:19-20 “{YOU!} Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe ALL that I have commanded YOU; and lo, I am with YOU ALWAYS, to the close of the age."

THE EVIDENCE OF CHIRCH PERSECUTION
Please review the following sites

[1] churchhistory101.com/century1.php

[2] earlychurch.org.uk/persecution-russell.htm

[3] christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-27/persecution-in-early-church-christian-history-timeline.html

[4] holytrinitymission.org/books/english/historical_road_a_schmemann.htm
Throughout history the BLOOD of countless MILLIONS of martyrs; NOT merely bad-mouthed, but drug from their houses and very often murdered. Forced abandonment of their homes & livelihood. Saul himself was an early part of this persecution, until his CONVERSION experience. [ACTS Chpt. 9] And this same later persecution saw millions of Catholics slaughtered in Africa which BTW is now the MOST rapidly growing Church in the World; and even more recently in the Middle East; the continued persecution and murder of countless COPTIC Catholics. The NEWS uses the TERM “Christians” BUT they ARE Catholic Christians.

FACT: Over the centuries MANY MILLIONS of Catholics have sacrificed their very lives, their families, their homes. WOULD THEY HAVE DONE THIS NOT KNOWING THE REALITY OF THE EUCHARISTIC REAL PRESENCE? OF OUR GOD? WOULD YOU?
The Eucharistic Presence of Jesus in Catholic Holy Communion is the “Sum and the SUMMIT” of our Catholic Faith & hence all Christianity’s Faith [the latter often not commonly recognized as such.]

OUR CATECHISM

1324 "The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.” “The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch.”{Sacrifice}

This constant position of the RCC has led to continuous growth for 2,000 years. And there are 1.2 BILLION Catholics worldwide, the reason for this IS Christ Real Presence in the Eucharist

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

 

[PJM]

CONTINUATION OF PREVIOUS POST

** THE BIBLICAL EVIDENCE**

FIVE separate authors of the NT, & Jesus Himself testify to this reality
Matt.26: 26 to 28 “Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said,** “Take, eat; this is my body.”** And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”

Mk 14:22-24 “And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, "Take; this is my body." And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many”

Lk 22:17-20 “And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves; for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood”

John 6 [the entire chapter [edited here] verses 47-58 & 64-69 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.{Which accurately & precisely describes what DOES take place in Catholic Holy Communion}….

But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me {believe this} unless it is granted him by the Father." After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God

PAUL 1st Cor 11:23-30 "For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said,** “This is my body** which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [25] In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” “For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. **Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. **Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died” {Died here means self- condemned to eternal hell}

HOW DOES THE EUCHARIST COME INTO EXISTENCE?

The Eucharist is
**FROM **God the Father
OF God the SON
IN and through God the Holy Spirit

The Eucharist is TAUGHT & Commanded by our Good and Perfect God, Jesus; who is incapable of lying or deceiving
NOTE: the bread is “unleavened” and contains NO salt, .In honor of the OT Passover meal.

There is biblical evidence that the VERY Early RCC immediately accepted and implemented this belief and practice, which at first [prior to the addition of theological terms], was known as “THE BREAKING OF THE BREAD”

Acts.2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers”

SUMMATION
I personally believe because of all of the above; because of the evidence of Eucharistic miracles which BTW ALL have in common, throughout the world, and despite even centuries of time difference the SAME BLOOD TYPE:[AB]

[1] churchmilitant.com/news/article/eucharistic-miracles-confirm-real-presence-of-jesus-christ

[2] churchpop.com/2016/05/28/blood-type-eucharistic-miracles/

[3] dowym.com/voices/5-incredible-eucharistic-miracles-from-the-last-25-years/

I believe as do a BILLION of my fellow Catholics in this age; and many uncounted BILLIONS is ages past; and as do the many martyrs who have lost life, homes and employment; YET BELIEVE IT”S worthwhile; and of course they are RIGHT. BUT mostly I believe because I HAVE seen its wondrous effects in my own life, and in the lives of a great many others that I know well. I believe because my GOD has proclaimed this TRUTH Himself, and He is ALL Good, even Perfect, and can neither lie or deceive… Amen

GOD Bless you “DG”

Patrick

 

[PJM]

REPLY to DaddyGirl: part 3 of 3

So now my friend we come to your third point: [3]–the reasons given why adult female humans cannot be priests.

There isn’t much I can add to what I already shared:

Here is the document if you wish to read it?
ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
Pope John Paul II

---

Apostolic Letter On Reserving Priestly Ordination To Men Alone

1. Priestly Ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying, and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: “She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God’s plan for his Church.”[1]
But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration , which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.[2]

1. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church “does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination.”[3] To these fundamental reasons the document adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ’s way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology—thereafter always followed by the Church’s Tradition—Christ established things in this way.

"[4]
In the Apostolic Letter , I myself wrote in this regard: “In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behaviour, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time.”

[5]
In fact, the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God’s eternal plan: Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. 3:13-14; 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, “through the Holy Spirit” ( 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,[6] the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord’s way of acting in choosing twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; 3:13- 16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers[7] who would succeed them in their ministry.[8] Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles’ mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.[9]

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST

 

[PJM]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

1. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration points out, “the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission; today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church”.[10]

The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as to total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. “By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honour and gratitude for those women who—faithful to the Gospel—have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins, and the mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church’s faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel”.[11]
Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration recalls: “the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. <1 Cor> 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints”.[12]

1. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
   Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.

Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable Brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my Apostolic Blessing.

From the Vatican, on 22 May, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

God Bless you, Patrick

I CAN help you but only if you permit me too. You’re call. Pray about it.

 

[MaryT777]

Why not?

It’s reasonable to think that he chose 12 men that day because there were no women in front of him at that time in the group.
Or, he may have suspected that many stubborn men (like Paul!) probably would not listen to a woman…or that perhaps, it would be difficult and dangerous at that time for women to take on the tasks of an apostle (though Mary M proved otherwise; I think she traveled and preached after Jesus was crucified?)

But that was then and this is now. I think had he not been crucified and had more time, he would have included women in that role asap.

One could also argue that when Jesus told Mary M, "go tell them!’ he is giving the green light for Mary and women to be priests/preachers.

.

These are simply speculations of what MAY have been this or one could argue that. Catholics believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. The Bible would have stated clearly if there were issues with the choosing of women to be apostles. It doesn’t because there were no issues The apostles were men.

The Bible states the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That Church is the Church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. The Bible also states what the Church binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth will be as such in heaven.

Mary.

 

[PJM]

Um…nope. Not asking why suffering and evil exists. Sorry!

I’m saying that the entire narrative of making people, making them flawed and with free will, then punishing them for their choices…and then offering to “save” them from that punishment by sending himself to earth as his son who, sorta, gives the info on what to do to be saved…but before clarifying a lot of it, is tortured and killed in order to save everyone (and yet, everyone* still * are not saved…even 2000 years later)…all of this does not make sense to me.

The whole set-up and god’s thought-process, motives, and choices make no sense, IMO.
I think it would be illogical and/or unwise for a god to do all this…unless it was for their own entertainment/amusement?

.

Hmmmmmm
I think I replied to those very points

I’m saying that the entire narrative of making people, making them flawed and with free will, then punishing them for their choices…and then offering to “save” them from that punishment by sending himself to earth as his son who, sorta, gives the info on what to do to be saved…but before clarifying a lot of it, is tortured and killed in order to save everyone (and yet, everyone* still * are not saved…even 2000 years later)…all of this does not make sense to me.”

The whole set-up and god’s thought-process, motives, and choices make no sense, IMO.

I think it would be illogical and/or unwise for a god to do all this…unless it was for their own entertainment/amusement?

The issue is not GOD; it’s being created "in the image and likeness of God”, with a mind, intellect and freewill

God good and Perfect; and God can tolerate nothing less than perfection in His Divine Presence; so to MY way of thinking that gave God who in an absolute sense could not have chosen for example to make man as a perfect creature and thus predestination, and everyone is LITERALLY saved.

NO GOD had to either choose NOT to create humanity at all; OR choose as He did, to Create humanity [ALONE] in all of the created Universe, with the ability to FREELY choose to know, love, serve and OBEY Him; and or just as FREELY to choose to hate, despise and disobey Him. WHY?

HERE’S THE KEY TO RIGHT UNDERSTANDING. Because God gives us Perfect love and desires; even demands prefect [or perfected] love in return as the ONLY fully acceptable option to Divine Justice. Because ONLY humanity is enabled to make this choice; that then becomes humanities reason to exist.

Evil exist because of man’s freewill {MEISM} choices; & is in opposition to goodness and therefore GOD, yet the possibility HAS to exist for man to be enable to freely bestow perfect love back to God.

I’m saying that the entire narrative of making people, making them flawed and with free will, then punishing them for their choices…and then offering to “save” them from that punishment by sending himself to earth as his son who, sorta, gives the info on what to do to be saved…but before clarifying a lot of it, is tortured and killed in order to save everyone (and yet, everyone* still * are not saved…even 2000 years later)…all of this does not make sense to me.

Contrary to as you suggest man is NOT “flawed” BUT actually made PERFECT [able to know and choose good over evil.] OF COURSE God then IS morally obligated to punish evil and reward goodness; BUT GOD also makes choosing “good” the GREATER option of the two; going so far as to OFFER ALL sin forgiveness; through Sacramental Confession. …. So God goes WAY out of the way in His desire that ALL Souls be saved. 1: Tim 2: 3-5

It seems to ME, that there will be never be a time that “ALL” men will be saved; because it is OUR life choices to choose “life or death”. Salvation is not so much a GIFT as it is a JUST-REWARD. It HAS to be merited! Which so many miss. GOD also commits HIMSELF to OFFER at LEAST “sufficient” grace to every soul that all souls COULD choose salvation. GODS WILL, BUT MAN’S CHOICE!

There is no ambiguity to what GOD demands for a soul to be saved. Here it is in summary form

1. Know, love, serve & OBEY God
2. Die without unconfessed; unforgiven MORTAL sins [1 Jn 1:8-9; 1 Jn 5:16-17 & Jn 20:19-23]
3. Practice WORKS of charity
4. TIME itself has NO effect on salvation, as it is MAN”S personal choices that determine salvation. Man was created with the potential to be perfect as well as to be “perfectly-evil.” Blame man, not God.
5. From a pragmatic perspective: GOD knew through His past experience with Lucifer [Satan] and later with Adam & Eve; all of whom WERE granted a perfect existence and blew it; that man, quite possibly to would vacillate between good and evil. Hence Christ and GRACE

THANKS for your reply,

We MUST pray MUCH for the grace of RIGHT understanding in order to receive it:thumbsup:

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Why not?

It’s reasonable to think that he chose 12 men that day because there were no women in front of him at that time in the group.
Or, he may have suspected that many stubborn men (like Paul!) probably would not listen to a woman…or that perhaps, it would be difficult and dangerous at that time for women to take on the tasks of an apostle (though Mary M proved otherwise; I think she traveled and preached after Jesus was crucified?)

But that was then and this is now. I think had he not been crucified and had more time, he would have included women in that role asap.

One could also argue that when Jesus told Mary M, "go tell them!’ he is giving the green light for Mary and women to be priests/preachers.

.

No my friend that is wishful thinking

How CAN we know ypur position is not true?

1. Because with GOD there are no such things as luck [good or bad], no coincidences, no happenstances; everything is a result of Divine Providence. If its a good it is caused by GOD; if it is an evil it caused by man and permitted by GOD.
2. Historically GOD has always chosen just ONE MAN to lead:

Noah, Abram, Moses, the Judges,the Kings, the Prophets, leading right up to John the Baptist; who leads to Christ, who choose 12 MALES as His Apostles. It is NOTABLE that neither His Mother, or Mary Magdalena; BOTH highly regarded and loved, could have been, BUT were NOT selected.

As to MM & “go tell them” ; nice try:

***My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible?

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility; [it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or learn Christ Faith”***

2Peter 1: 19-21
And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: [20]** Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. [21] For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost**.
[Douay explanation]

[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise. End Quotes

“Whenever something is good it does not depend on us getting our way, but on God getting His way, and whether we do God’s Will depends on us [humbly] loving God. Moreover to love God we must [actually] know God, [not just know OF God].” Bread of Life booklet January 9, 2016”Mt 7:21

Paul’s comments on the Role of women, while sexist in OUR times; nevertheless articulate well the mind of the Church. Women are to have roles; even VERY significant and important ones; but Preaching is not one of them. The number of Women Saints is awe inspiring.

God Bless,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

These are simply speculations of what MAY have been this or one could argue that. Catholics believe the Bible is the infallible word of God. The Bible would have stated clearly if there were issues with the choosing of women to be apostles. It doesn’t because there were no issues The apostles were men.

The Bible states the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That Church is the Church Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. The Bible also states what the Church binds on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth will be as such in heaven.

Mary.

Thank you,

We CATHOLICS do NOT teach that everything in the bible is Infallible.

Secondly the bible itsef testifies that NOT everything by intent was included in the bible

John.20 Verses 30 to 31
[30] Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; [31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:24-25
[24] This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

GBY

Patrick

 

[MaryT777]

Thank you,

We CATHOLICS do NOT teach that everything in the bible is Infallible.

Secondly the bible itsef testifies that NOT everything by intent was included in the bible

these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

GBYJohn.20 Verses 30 to 31
[30] Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; [31] but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 21:24-25
[24] This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written

Patrick

I apologize. I meant inerrant not infallible.

I do not recall saying that everything is included in the Bible.

Mary.

 

[PJM]

So…your original question was asking what doesn’t make sense to us.

By saying the above-- that the eucharist is a “mystery” and “miracle” and that god is not always “logical” to us-- are you basically saying that yeah, believing that the wafter turns into flesh doesn’t make sense, but it’s not *meant *to?p/QUOTE]

WHOA there, I NEVER said “GOD was not always logical.” If God could be illogical He COULD NOT BE God

Nor did I say or even imply that the Eucharist" does not make sense"

The EUCHARIST makes PERFECT sense; it fulfills GOD"S Desire to remain in our midst and have an ACTIVE role in humanities salvation. It is the most effective AID to man’s efforts to MERIT personal salvation. I WAS very clear on THAT point.

I CERTAINLY NEVER Said or implied that the Eucharist does NOT “BECOME” “turn into” is rather poorer expression IMO] the very REAL Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Himself.

Indeed I SHARED from the Catechism that precisely states that Jesus HIMSELF is “really, truly and substantially” PRESENT in Person IN HIS NOW GLORIFIED BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY"

Yes, there have been many killed for their beliefs, of all groups.
Re Christians, I think some people leave out important details when they speak of “persecution”, and that includes the info in the links you posted.
In the first few centuries, there were I think three state-sponsored persecutions of Christians, from what I’ve read.

THANKS for the reply

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Yes, but…having said all that…even if Jesus really did say those words, one could read them as being SYMBOLIC. As I’m sure you know. They read symbolically to me and to many others. He did not clarify either way and for many, the natural translation is that he meant it as symbolic.

.

SUCH understandings are severely lacking FAITH; but your right many do choose to give these and a great many other bible teachings THEIR OWN spin, despite bible warnings not to do so.

THAT my friend is WHY GOD alone can make the JUST call’s on who is and who s NOT going to be saved. GOD has NEVER asked for man’s opinions; He permits them; but has NO obligation to accept them.

FINAL JUDGMENT WILL BE ON WHAT GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF TO KNOW; NOT WHAT WE CHOOSE [FOR ANY REASON] TO ACCEPT. Amen.

God Bless you, best of luck with your book

Patrick

 

[PJM]

What can I say…except that these three reasons don’t seem strong enough to exclude women from the priesthood.

He chose men that day, but that does not mean he mean it to be only men forever.
It was a different time when women were not allowed to do anything.

That something has been done for a long time one way is not enough reason to keep it that way. If that were true, women would not be able to vote or own property or be able to be doctors, lawyers…men would be slaves…we’d still think the world was flat…

As per above, I can’t see how it’s “God’s plan” to exclude female people from the priesthood.

THANK YOU for all your hard work putting together replies to me, PJM!

.

Your entitled to your opinion and GOD to His. Think I’ll stick with GOD"S

Blessings

Patrick

 

[PJM]

i apologize. I meant inerrant not infallible.

I do not recall saying that everything is included in the bible.

Mary.

thanks!

 

[meltzerboy]

One thing that I have thought about regarding Catholic teaching (I wouldn’t say it “doesn’t make sense” since I know it does within Catholic doctrine) is the idea that one may lead a virtuous life but “slip up” at the very end by committing a mortal sin for which one does not seek repentance and thus be condemned to hell. Why wouldn’t G-d consider the TOTALITY of a person’s life rather than so severely penalize them for a mortal sin which stands in opposition to the good features of the rest of their life? Isn’t this more just?

I suppose the flipside is also difficult for me to understand. That is, the Catholic belief that one may lead a terrible life but at the last moment repent and thus be saved. This, I admit, is more akin to Jewish teaching since we know that G-d makes “white as snow” all our sins if only we turn away from them. But still, I find it a bit disconcerting that a virtuous person for most of their life may wind up going to hell whereas a terrible person may ultimately be saved at the very last moment. I find this merciful in the second instance, but not so much either merciful or just in the first instance.

 

[Church_Militant]

MB, that’s not much different from your own Jewish faith is it? Don’t you believe that a life of virtue can be undone by grave sin at the end?

Also, there is no such thing as “slipping up” and committing a mortal sin. There are 3 aspects or components necessary to commit one.

• A grave matter
• Full Knowledge that it is.
• Willful commission

To commit a mortal sin you have to intend to do so.

 

[PJM]

REPLY TO POST #64
DaddyGirl:

Patrick…your answers stir up more things that don’t make sense to me instead of clarifying the ones I’ve already mentioned.
If a god cannot tolerate anything less than perfect, why would he then make “perfect” people who disobey him…then punish them and cause much pain and torture…if everyone ends up saved in the end anyway?
What for?

My friend, this too as previously addressed

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1 Peter 1: 17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, “

Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Rom.2: 13 “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”

John 3:5 “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

[THIS is the NORM, exceptions are conditionally possible]

God’s creation of humanity is “perfect” ONLY conditionally in the following sense

1. Man is Created in the image of our PERFECT GOD
2. In humanity because of the effects of Original sin of Adam & Eve; the “perfection” is influenced by man’s “natural propensity to sin”; [concupiscence] which has an equal off-setting factor: God’s grace. GOD commits Himself to OFFER “sufficient grace that everyone COULD choose salvation. It then is man’s freewill choice; applying correctly or incorrectly intellect, mind and freewill, to choose good or evil. Choosing evil destroys perfection.
3. As indicated in two prior post; humanity exist as the ONLY created-possibility ABLE to know, love and serve God. Isa 43: 7 &21; and only in freely choosing to do so, CAN conditionally fulfill his reason to exist, and attain his possible perfection. So God makes perfection possible while man CAN make perfection ALSO impossible by man’s; not God’s choice.
4. MAN’S “perfection” IS CONDITIONAL ON MAN’S OWN FREEWILL CHOICES.

Again, I’m not clear why you keep bringing “evil” into it.

I am using the term “evil” here most often in an interchange for “sin”; the very cause of EVIL

And also, why do you say it *has *to exist. Why wouldn’t people be able to give “perfect love” back to god without evil existing? Again, I don’t see the sense in that.

You’re asking the right questions; and I’m not sure I have the full answer for you? They Can [COULD} BUT THEY [not God] choose NOT too.

In an absolute sense evil and or sin need NOT exist; YET in a practical sense; because the POSSIBILITY for them exist; [concupiscence] they DO exist. Sin is a result of man’s freewill choices; NOT a desired or planned part of God’s Original design and schematic for man.

WHAT you’re seeing as a “design flaw” [GOD”S FAULT]; is an absolutely essential element of planned creation in-order for man’s perfection to be at least a possibility [love freely returned for love freely given.] …. It would be a very prudent idea for you to take these great questions to a local catholic priest; who is far better suited to express what I can only do vaguely.

So…how are people supposed to be saved if they do not know what a mortal sin is, and what they can do to make up for it?

As the NORM, a mortal sin in-order for it to be a MORTAL sin MUST meet 3 requirements

1 It must be a serious matter

2 One MUST know that committing such an act WILL BE a Mortal sin BEFORE choosing to do it

3 Then one must FREELY choose to do this act anyway
For more infor SEE our Catechism: ….

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

**NUMBERS 1849-1864 **

That said: there ARE actions that are always and every time gravely sinful; termed intrinsic evils. These crimes against God and often man, CAN and SHOULD be known by all humanity. Things like murder, abortion, adultery, serious theft, often salacious gossip, and the like are written on the minds & hearts of all humanity; and even without full knowledge of God ought to be known as sinful.

Pretending NOT to know what can and OUGHT to be known increases; not diminishes the gravity of a sin.

It doesn’t make sense that a god would give a To-Do list of sins and salvation, and then be aware ahead of time that millions of people will never know these lists because they follow a different religion that they have been taught by their parents as the “one, true” religion.

My friend you missed an IMPORTANT teaching from one of my previous replies:
GOD WILL PASS JUST JUDGMENT ON EACH OF US BASED NOT ON WHAT WE KNOW, DON’T KNOW, DENY OUR CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, RATHER IT WILL BE ON WHAT HE, GOD HAS MADE POSSIBLE FOR EACH OF US TO KNOW, ACCEPT, AND BELIEVE. This issue is termed: “culpability.”

In order for God to be GOD, He MUST be completely fair and just. And SO HE IS!

KNOW also my friend that sin darkens one’s understanding; and that GOD is on OUR side, so pray for right-understandings.

GBY

Patrick

 

[PJM]

DaddyGirl:
REPLY TO POST 65

by PJM

1. Because with GOD there are no such things as luck [good or bad], no coincidences, no happenstances; everything is a result of Divine Providence. If its a good it is caused by GOD; if it is an evil it caused by man and permitted by GOD .end quote

First, how do you know this is correct?

Because God can be proven to exist; the laws of motion for example and the fact that “good’ exist

Because GOD does exist; God is in charge

Second…if it is, then people should not be worried at all about sinning or if they find salvation…because it is all divine providence.

No my friend, “Divine Providence” is God CAUSING something to happen [and He can only cause that which is “good”]. Further, as previously shared, Once GOD made the decision to create man in His Image [mind, intellect & freewill”]; then God in Divine Justice HAS to in an absolute sense permit man to exercise; that is to make use of these very gifts. Divine Justice prohibits GOD form giving a Gift and then arbitrary taking the same back.

So it is man’s freewill choice that brings sin into existence; and while God, as “ALL KNOWING” is aware of the choices man freely chooses; God can only influence man towards “good”, through grace; which is an OFFER to help; an offer to lead men in the “right” direction, not a command, predicated on man’s FREEWILL-choices.

God can forgive ALL sins, but never condone sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM
2. Historically GOD has always chosen just ONE MAN to lead:
Noah, Abram, Moses, the Judges,the Kings, the Prophets, leading right up to John the Baptist; who leads to Christ, who choose 12 MALES as His Apostles. It is NOTABLE that neither His Mother, or Mary Magdalena; BOTH highly regarded and loved, could have been, BUT were NOT selected. end quote

Men are the main characters in most of the Judeo-Christian stories most likely because it was a patriarchal society.

It still does not mean it can’t be different now, for the same reasons I mentioned earlier.

Actually it does. God FREELY choose to create Adam before He created Eve, for reason that FIT is Divine and Perfect Will. …. As stated with GOD there are NO coincediences.

Mary M was very involved and traveled with the group, supported them, and was instrumental at the most dramatic, turning point moments.

RE Jesus’ mother…there are many reasons why she may have not traveled with the group and be an apostle. She had a husband and other children at home to take care of. Or, she may have not wanted to. Remember the scene in the gospels where she sends the siblings out to fetch Jesus because he’s talking “out of his mind”?

If I may use the term ‘secondary” here? NOT meaning in any way inferior; GOD had and HAS a plan for both genders; and over time has used BOTH for MUCH good. Take for example; Mary His Mother. MOTHER OF GOD [literally]…… GOD could have chosen another way to enter into our world. The OT recounts multiple Angels who appeared as mortal men.

In very recent times we have the examples of Mother Theresa of Calcutta, and Mother Angelica [founder of EWTN]; so it’s not that women are being deprived of opportunities; or not attaining SIGNIFIANT good things; ONLY that God’s intended Roles for men and women ARE designed by God to be different BUT complementary. …. Just as a FAMILY’S head is intended by GOD to be the Father; and YES, society is doing all it can to screw this up, so too the mothers role is critically indispensable, and not at all secondary; just different. BUT all organization HAVE to have a HEAD.

Quote:
[20] No prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation: This shews plainly that the scriptures are not to be expounded by any one’s private judgment or private spirit, because every part of the holy scriptures were written by men inspired by the Holy Ghost, and declared as such by the Church; therefore they are not to be interpreted but by the Spirit of God, which he hath left, and promised to remain with his Church to guide her in all truth to the end of the world. Some may tell us, that many of our divines interpret the scriptures: they may do so, but they do it always with a submission to the judgment of the Church, and not otherwise.end quote

But…groups of people did interpret it. And there was much debate for decades and/or centuries by the “early church” on how to interpret scripture and, indeed, which scripture to even include in the canon.

There are near countless examples of “we can”; but “SHOULD WE” …. There’s that darn ol’ mind, intellect and freewill again

“MIGHT does NOT make right”

What people Did is evident; that they should NOT have is even more so

After 2,000 years there are 23 branches of the RCC, ALL WITH ONE SET OF FAITH BELIEFS

After 500 years there are thousands [and GROWING DAILY] DIFFERING Christian churches and sets of private - individual sets of faith beliefs…… HOW CAN THIS BE AS TRUTH CAN BE NOTHING OTHER THAN SINGULAR PER DEFINED ISSUE? …. Anything else is illogical, immoral [wrong]and unsupportable.

Quote:
Paul’s comments on the Role of women, while sexist in OUR times; nevertheless articulate well the mind of the Church. Women are to have roles; even VERY significant and important ones; but Preaching is not one of them.

Except…Paul didn’t specify women’s roles in the church with those quotes. He simply said women should not ask questions or speak in church.
And, he said women should not “teach or exercise authority over a man.”

But today, women do speak in the Catholic Church and they do ask questions.
And women are also teachers (of men) and in many areas, are in authority positions over men.

The “mind of the Church” has adapted to society 20 centuries later in many ways, why not in this one?

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST