What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean?

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Vico said:
Pope Pius XI (1930) stated in Casti cannubii , the husband occupies the chief place in ruling, such that the wife claims the chief place in love
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I remember starting a thread about this. I asked about what it meant in real life, although I don’t recall getting answers :confused:
 
Lea101 said:
I remember starting a thread about this. I asked about what it meant in real life, although I don’t recall getting answers :confused:
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If you want my opinion about what it means in real life, I think it is a bit outdated because I would expect that in today’s relationships, men and women can and do share “head and heart” duties. Not every marriage is traditional, and if it works for the two people involved and they stay married and do not commit sin, that’s fine.
 
I agree. Imo a traditional marriage needs to have both sharing head and heart duties, for the sake of the child’s development.
 
What is the opinion of the Church today about the submission of the wife to the husband, topic of which st. Paul spoke about?
 
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Lea101 said:
Casti cannubii
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More from Casti cannubii:
But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin.

28. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact.

29. … [Pope] Leo XIII… Let divine charity be the constant guide of their mutual relations …
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Here you go:
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What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean? Catholic Living
As a man I feel really weird about this whole submissive thing. Why do wives have to submit to their husbands? They’re their own women. I don’t want my wife to submit to me. What if I’m wrong about something? Shouldn’t she do what’s right and not what I want her to do? It just seems very controlling. Or it’s often used as an excuse by men who wish to control and abuse their wives. I can understand my children being obedient toward me. But I wouldn’t expect or demand that any woman obey me. That…
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Tis_Bearself said:
While I generally agree with this, I note that many husbands like to get (name removed by moderator)ut from their wife before they make major decisions that will affect her and their children, such as major expenditures, where the family will live, whether the husband should change jobs or go back to school, etc. This is part of loving his wife as Scripture says he should do. So the couple really make the decisions together.
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Yeah.

And in practice, the data that the husband is using to make his decisions in these areas is primarily going to be coming from the wife.
 
Sad_girl said:
So you agree on the cherrypicking, thats cool. Craig has a Phd in christian theology so while he isnt catholic i dont think thats worth completely disregarding his thoughts. I liked his explanation of moral growth, thats all.
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  1. What you’re calling cherrypicking may instead be a proper understanding of historical context or differentiation between the old and new testament.
  2. I had Non-Catholic Christian friends who would never vote for a female president nomatter who it was based on their understanding of scripture. I’m sure the person you mention does not interpret it that way, but it is not unreasonable for Catholics to prefer Catholic interpretation of The Word.
  3. Moral growth to restore the relationship between man and woman is part of Catholic Christianity. Man having dominion over woman was a consequence of the fall. Not a punishment or directive from God, but discord sewn between us by sin. Christian marriage aims to restore the dignity of man and woman and restore the relationship to the original pure love and joy Adam felt upon meeting his helper and companion after first being so alone. (Literal belief in this story is not necessary to imagine that joy)
  4. If you have time, please read St. Pope John Paul II’s 1995 Letter to Women. If you want to feel respected and really seen by the church as a woman who has been watching our plight in history, his words are so many hugs.
    Letter to Women (June 29, 1995) | John Paul II
 
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Sad_girl said:
The bible is pretty clear that women at best second class citizens and at worst property. William Lane Craig would say that God has made it possible for human beings to achieve moral growth in this area, and that may be, but mostly i think that we women stood up for ourselves and fought hard against both of those previous states to achieve the equality that is normal in most of the civilized world. I dont know what the original greek or hebrew said, but “submit” is not a fuzzy term, it means what its definition implies. Lets all agree at least that we can cherrypick around leviticus and numbers when it comes to how we treat eachother.
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What I would say to this is that as a Christian community we’re told in Ephesians 5:21 (which is the opener for a famous “submission” passage) to submit to each other: “Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.”

I’ve participated in a LOT of CAF submission threads, and this is an important nuance that gets forgotten, that wifely submission is not the only form of submission preached in the New Testament. In fact, submission is an essential part of the Christian approach to dealing with everybody. There are a lot of long passages on this in the epistles, but you can also see it in the Gospels. See, for example, Matthew 5:

“5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.”

“38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.”

What is that, if not submission?
 
BCathB said:
What is the opinion of the Church today about the submission of the wife to the husband, topic of which st. Paul spoke about?
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I don’t believe “the church” has an opinion, not in the way you seem to mean.

I recommend you read some of the writings of John Paul II, such as Mulieris Dignitatum and Familiaris Consortio, and the documents of Vatican II such as Gaudium et Spes.

They might help you.
 
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The birds eye perspective on this subject is about mate selection. There could be volumes written about people who were mismatched in marriage.

Now, I could not write those volumes, but I’m sure a lot of people could contribute to them.

My bird’s eye perspective is this: What woman (wife) would not want to submit herself to a man (husband) who was deeply committed to Christ? This points to looking beyond “love at first sight” attraction, to a man who loves his wife as Christ loved the Church (look at the nearest crucifix, as Fr. John Riccardo would say). This has a lot of practical implications for choosing a spouse.

A husband who was deeply committed to Christ would be searching for a potential wife who was the same. That’s the submission, in the highest sense, that is important – to submit to Christ in all things.
This is one of those points of Biblical studies where the question gets raised, what did the Bible mean THEN and what does it mean today? We need to look at the literal sense, as the starting point, but we must go on to the spiritual sense for the fullest understanding.
 
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That and appeal to authority is itself a logical fallacy and wouldn’t pass muster in a debate.
 
Lea101 said:
She broke down the word submit, an English word, instead of using the source word. Which as far as I know, does not mean under the mission.
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In the Greek, it’s ὑποτασσόμενοι and ὑποτάσσεται, from hypo (under) and tasso (arrange). In the Latin, the word used to translate these is subjecta (and subjecti), which means… ‘submit’.

So, I think she’s ok on this one. 😉
 
I’m not answering for the Church, but my opinion is that people who ask any variation of this question have never been married, and definitely not for 10+ years.
 
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I’m not educated about this so I’m just reiterating points here, but the Greek word has been used a couple of time in the Bible (people and governing authorities, apparently demons and disciples).

All of this suggest that there is an authority present, which Jackie didn’t touch on. Under the mission does not seem to be an accurate way to break down the word?
 
otrrl said:
My bird’s eye perspective is this: What woman (wife) would not want to submit herself to a man (husband) who was deeply committed to Christ?
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Imo, I feel like this is a bit oversimplified.

You can have a guy who’s madly in love with Christ, yet a woman who’s hesitant to agree/support in his decisions. He may not have enough expertise. No matter how hard he tries, he can never be infallible like Jesus. Or someone may just be skeptical about the whole arrangement in the first place, rather than the quality of her man.
 
So is correct for an husband to renounce sometimes to his wish in order to please the wife?
 
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