What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Le_Crouton
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I didn’t choose to marry a foolish man. I don’t think many women would choose to do that.

A Catholic husband, guided by the Holy Spirit, would use wisdom he was gifted with in order to fulfill his role as husband and father to maximize everyone’s gifts in the family. If that means he chooses to allow his wife to have full control of the finances because that’s her gift, then that’s his choice. The buck has to stop somewhere and in marriage, it always stops with the husband.

Going over your chosen husband’s head on any issue just doesn’t seem to conform to Catholic Christian Marriage norms or the norms for any loving relationship for that matter. In your grandparents situation, it may have looked like that’s what happened on the outside, but it’s very possible it just seemed like that to anyone outside of their marriage. There’s no reason a husband shouldn’t put his wife in charge of the finances, most especially if that’s her gift.
 
Well, perhaps not Catholic marriage (though there are some Catholics here who do not seem to take your hardline), but my grandmother was doing what needed to be done to prevent financial difficulties. And my grandfather didn’t put her in charge of finances so much as by the time they’d been married 20 years, she was fed up and simply gave him no alternative, and my grandmother was a very persistent woman. Did she take advantage of his nonconfrontational nature, to be sure, and I suppose there’s a quandary there, but what she did she did because the family was more important than some idealized version of the good Christian wife.
 
Why does the Catholic & Biblical Marriage outline of “Husbands love your wife as Christ loves the Church giving His life up for her” & “Wives obey your husband” make anyone think a Catholic Christian Wife says, “whatever you want” when her husband speaks?

That’s like jumping from 1 to Z. It’s not even in the same ballpark.

Help me follow that line of logic. How exactly does someone come to that conclusion?
 
I’m not really thinking wife of Gabriel is taking so much of a hardline here. If anything, the example of her marriage is one of mutual trust and cooperation rather than one of his dominance and her subjugation.
 
It sounds like he chose to let her do it. Think about it. There’s no way for a wife to take over her husband’s finances without his permission (or visa versa). Legally she can’t take his paychecks, can’t get added to his bank accounts, added as a user on his credit cards, etc… unless
A. He willingly makes the decision to add her to his accounts and sign over his paychecks
OR
B. He’s deemed legally incompetent and the courts give her Power of Attorney
 
Last edited:
Exactly, dominance/tyrant/dictator/doormat have no place in a marital relationship. But the Catholic/Biblical roles of spouses’ Love and Obedience do have an important place in Catholic marriages.
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
To me it sounds as though this section of Casti Cannubi you’re quoting from is for women who are married to a non-practocing Christian
Click to expand...
Nah. It doesn’t even say that the action is necessarily sinful. It’s just “not in harmony with right reason”–which covers both sin and imprudence. Take, for example, buying tampons that you know will cause unpleasant female symptoms or buying TP that doesn’t do the job…

Choices don’t need to be sinful to be imprudent.
 
HopkinsReb said:
Oh, absolutely. A man should be not only willing to give up his wish for his wife’s happiness, but should be eager to. After all, “husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her.”
Click to expand...
Also, that’s St. Paul’s working assumption in 1 Corinthians 7:

“The unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; 33but the married man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife, 34and his interests are divided. And the unmarried woman or girl is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit; but the married woman is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please her husband.”

St. Paul doesn’t even tell people to please their spouse–he assumes that they want to.
 
A husband who loves his wife isn’t going to demand she use a brand that will knowingly give her problems.

Not in harmony with right reason would relate to anything not in line with Catholic teaching or to a husband suffering from mental illness, like schizophrenia or dementia, causing him to literally be unable to reason.

It seems like a huge stretch to blanket it to any situation the wife might disagree with, like a tampon brand. That would open the door to endless unresolvable arguments (unresolvable because the wife is under the impression anything she disagrees with is her husband not being in harmony with right reason) and unresolved marital discord often leads to divorce.

As Catholic Christians we’re to behave according to our Faith.
 
Yes, you and I definitely seem unsuccessful at communication. I will continue to try.

Yes, Proverbs 31 is a beautiful description of a wife any mother would be elated to have for her son. Which is in no way in conflict with being an obedient wife to a loving husband.

I see you repeatedly saying someone is claiming it’s a sin, a mortal sin, for a wife to be disobedient to her husband although you just edited it out of your most recent comment I’m responding to. You seem to be confusing that person with me, even though these are not words I’ve said. I’m not sure whether or not that’s a true statement.

I’m very confused at how any Catholic Christian could be so vehemently against a wife being obedient, respectful and submissive to her husband, just as our Catholic Tradition teaches us through the Bible & the Lives of the Saints and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yes, to be those 3 things is completely counter-cultural, and yet that’s what Jesus calls us to be counter-cultural “in, but not of, this world”.

Loving husbands are not micromanagers, they’re not tyrants, or anything other than Loving leaders of their household.

As Eastern Christians, my husband and I had the traditional Wedding including our Coronation following our Betrothal (exchange of wedding Rings). Our Wedding Crowns are mounted to the wall. He is King of our home and I am Queen. I can assure you that there’s NOTHING degrading about being Queen, second in command, of our Domestic Church.
 
Last edited:
Camehome4john6 said:
DH: Mildred, I have a chance to improve my career but we’d have to move to X. I know this will cause some havoc but we can work together to make things go smoothly.
Wife: Wow, that sounds exciting! Home is anywhere we’re together. Let’s start planning!
Click to expand...
This is where the kids jump in and start howling about the move.
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
A husband who loves his wife isn’t going to demand she use a brand that will knowingly give her problems.
Click to expand...
Right. But he doesn’t know that–he’s just asking her to buy cheap bad tampons that she knows will irritate her. He doesn’t have the relevant body parts or experience or gynecological training–he has no way of knowing (aside from price) how to compare different tampons.
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
It seems like a huge stretch to blanket it to any situation the wife might disagree with, like a tampon brand. That would open the door to endless unresolvable arguments (unresolvable because the wife is under the impression anything she disagrees with is her husband not being in harmony with right reason) and unresolved marital discord often leads to divorce.
Click to expand...
Well, one way to avoid endless conflict is not to micromanage–for example, dictating TP or tampon brand.

It makes a lot more sense to just agree on a grocery budget and then allow the wife freedom to spend or scrimp as she chooses–as long as she stays within the budget and the family has basic necessities. That’s how it works at our house. Once the monthly budget is set, we don’t need to talk about minutiae, although we will probably talk about anything that doesn’t obviously fit into the agreed-upon budget.

And in general, it’s a good idea to devote some time to figure out each spouse’s zones of expertise, so that each spouse has a free hand in dealing with minor issues within their area of expertise–although at some point, there should be some consultation.
 
Xantippe said:
Right. But he doesn’t know that–he’s just asking her to buy cheap bad tampons that she knows will irritate her. He doesn’t have the relevant body parts or experience or gynecological training–he has no way of knowing (aside from price) how to compare different tampons.
Click to expand...
My husband doesn’t boss me around. If I tell him I want something, I tell him exactly what and when he sees the price & it’s more than he’s expecting then we talk about other options. If I’ve tried another option & already know it doesn’t work I let him know and we go from there. He loves me and if we can afford it, I get what I want, but sometimes I need to try additional options not yet tried. Then if we truly can’t afford it, then either I get something else or we pinch the budget elsewhere. I’m NOT going to disrespect my husband by throwing a fit demanding my own way. That’s insane. I’m just not going to do that regardless. My marriage is worth more to me & my husband is far more important to me than any issue we come across.

Re: Shopping. What you’ve decided works for you & I’ve heard that works for many married couples. As for us, I HATE Shopping. My husband enjoys it, so he does 99.9% of the shopping for our family.
Xantippe said:
Well, one way to avoid endless conflict is not to micromanage–for example, dictating TP or tampon brand.
Click to expand...
This Tampon buying business was someone else’s example, so I went with it as an example. It would truly be a pretty rediculous thing to have an argument over. I can say it’s a product you only buy once every 3 months per woman in the household so really not a budget breaker. Definitely not something to ever argue about.
Xantippe said:
And in general, it’s a good idea to devote some time to figure out each spouse’s zones of expertise, so that each spouse has a free hand in dealing with minor issues within their area of expertise–although at some point, there should be some consultation.
Click to expand...
Completely agree. And in the end, if there is ever a disagreement that can not be talked through or compromised on (which should be extremely very, very rare in a Loving Catholic Christian Marriage), then the wife should obey her husband, just like when Jesus surrendered His Will to God the Father’s Will out of obedience in the Garden of Gethsemane. Marriage is for life, no do-overs. Bible says “don’t let the sun go down on your anger” so very true in marriage, no issue of disagreement is more important than your husband (or wife).
 
Xantippe said:
Right. But he doesn’t know that–he’s just asking her to buy cheap bad tampons that she knows will irritate her. He doesn’t have the relevant body parts or experience or gynecological training–he has no way of knowing (aside from price) how to compare different tampons.
Click to expand...
I would not find the suggestion appropriate.
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
Move to another country!? How exciting! Lucky her! My daughter & her husband are planning the same as soon as he gets out of the military. They’re currently in the Country Shopping process right now. So far they’ve been to Canada, Italy, Russia, Japan, & France. Next up Greece & Australia.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t really asking about your opinion about moving, but generally.

Seems like a wife who’s enthusiastic about the idea of moving isn’t submitting, since it would be her will as well.

What do you think about a wife who says no, because she wouldn’t want to leave her job, family and friends? Or if he already has a perfectly comfortable life here? Is she sinning by refusing to drop her whole life?
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
To me it sounds as though this section of Casti Cannubi you’re quoting from is for women who are married to a non-practocing Christian…like a wife for example would never be required to go against Catholicism… for example, a woman married a drug addict and he wants her to prostitute herself for drug money for him, um Nope. Prostitution, along with anything that is direct opposition to living a Catholic life, is definitely Not “in harmony with right reason”. I’d venture to guess that in most Catholic marriages, a request of this sort (not in harmony with right
Click to expand...
From my memory, I don’t think so. The document was essentially saying that women don’t have to submit to everything because she’s not a slave nor a child.
Camehome4john6 said:
Scenario one:
Wife: I’m sorry but X, Y, and Z happened and I wasn’t able to get dinner made. Can we go out?
DH: I work hard all day and I’m tired and I expect dinner on the table.
Scenario two:
Wife: I’m sorry but X,Y, and Z happened and I wasn’t able to get dinner made. Can we go out?
Dh: I’m a little too tired for that right now. Why don’t you slice up some cheese and I’ll go downstairs and find a wine to have with it. We’ll keep things simple tonight.

Scenario one:
DH: I got a new job offer, be ready to move next month.
Wife: Yes, dear.
Scenario two:
DH: Mildred, I have a chance to improve my career but we’d have to move to X. I know this will cause some havoc but we can work together to make things go smoothly.
Wife: Wow, that sounds exciting! Home is anywhere we’re together. Let’s start planning
Click to expand...
Here’s the thing about these scenarios…they’re pretty idealistic. There’s nothing wrong with saying ‘Hold up, this is a big decision. We need more time to discuss’ or ‘Wine and cheese isn’t enough, let’s order something instead’.

Rephrasing words to sound sweet doesn’t take away from what’s actually happening (eg telling someone to move, telling someone to prepare food etc), and there should not be anything wrong with a couple not immediately coming to a consensus
 
I can say that perimenopause my feminine care budget was huge. Nothing abnormal going on just hormonal changes. My husband knew I was the one that had expertise in that area. He does most of the grocery shopping because he wanted to. We tend too do what we like or are good at .
 
Lea101 said:
there should not be anything wrong with a couple not immediately coming to a consensus
Click to expand...
It’s important to come to a consensus fast on dinner!

But yes, a lot of areas of disagreement are ones that don’t need to be settled instantly. In the meantime, being nice about the disagreement is important.
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
Completely agree. And in the end, if there is ever a disagreement that can not be talked through or compromised on (which should be extremely very, very rare in a Loving Catholic Christian Marriage), then the wife should obey her husband, just like when Jesus surrendered His Will to God the Father’s Will out of obedience in the Garden of Gethsemane. Marriage is for life, no do-overs. Bible says “don’t let the sun go down on your anger” so very true in marriage, no issue of disagreement is more important than your husband (or wife).
Click to expand...
Why doesn’t “don’t let the sun go down on your anger” apply equally to husbands?

And again, I don’t know if you realize you’re doing this, but you keep putting the wife in the role of Jesus, whereas the scriptural analogy in Ephesians 5 is that the husband is supposed to lay his life down for his wife. This analogy of the wife as Jesus and the husband as God the Father is not one that you’re going to find in scripture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top