What exactly does this whole submission to the husband thing mean?

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Definitely. There will be someone who would take charge and someone who will follow. But usually, these roles will change depending on the situation, and the follower does not have to worry about sin if she/he refuses to go with the plan.

Most modern marriages I know have a similar set up, where the person who ‘wears the pants’ changes naturally from time to time. But ultimately when confronted they would say that there’s no leader
 
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HopkinsReb said:
My wife thought the “wives, submit to your husbands” bit was really important during our courtship. Now that I’m testing the waters of the Tiber, it’s suddenly no longer such great advice.
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Not surprised!

Young, deeply in love couples aren’t really going to be thinking clearly about the nuts and bolts of what they mean by wifely submission. They can’t even imagine not being able to settle a disagreement instantly.
 
Petition just as Jesus petitioned Father God. He’s our example for all relationships, including the one we have with the Father of our immediate family aka the wife’s husband.

Final decisions must lie with someone to avoid chaos. Family decisions must be made by the Father of each immediate family, according to Christian Tradition.
 
Sounds like chaos to have no leader in a marriage/family…sounds very Protestant, don’t you think? A body without a head.
 
I’d like to point out a problem with the mechanics of wifely submission, as popularly understood.

Let’s say that the husband wants to do A but the wife does not want to do A.

Now, in a perfect world, one of them would quickly change sides and the couple would wind up in agreement–but what if they continue to disagree?

Is it actually desirable for the wife to say (or even think) “I think that your idea is bad and that it will harm the family but I’m going to go along with it anyway because you’re the man and you get your way no matter how much pain it causes to other people in the family”?

Do normal husbands want their wives going along with them in that spirit? Is this true marital unity, or a rather nasty counterfeit?

It is possible for the wife to happily go along with the husband because she believes he is right–but in that case he has convinced her–which is not what people think of submission as being.

A few more thoughts:

–Note that it’s just as bad for the husband to go along with the wife’s harmful ideas if you flip the genders.
–A lot of times, things seem like a big deal in the heat of the moment, but the next day, you won’t even remember why you were so worked up about it. So there’s no need to resolve problems the same day if it’s not an emergency. A lot of times disagreement resolve if you just give them time for mutually agreeable solutions to appear–which they almost inevitably do. Being relaxed and not mad makes it easier to think and come up with win-win solutions.
–Interestingly, there have been many occasions at our house where husband and I had an unresolved disagreement…and then each of us carried on, on the assumption that the other person was right. We had unwittingly each persuaded the other!
–What some of these experiences suggest is that maybe what we think about as “submission” (namely, the husband always getting his way) isn’t the end all be all.

I really like this piece by a smart Protestant lady who has been married a long time.

tolovehonorandvacuum.com

"In the Case of Ties, He Wins." Is This Really Submission? - Bare Marriage

tolovehonorandvacuum.com tolovehonorandvacuum.com
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
Petition just as Jesus petitioned Father God. He’s our example for all relationships, including the one we have with the Father of our immediate family aka the wife’s husband.

Final decisions must lie with someone to avoid chaos. Family decisions must be made by the Father of each immediate family, according to Christian Tradition.
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Isn’t this theology pretty upside down?

We’re told the following in Ephesians 5:

"21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church,

Note the difference–you see the wife as Jesus being crucified in her marriage, whereas St. Paul sees the wife as representing the church, which Jesus loves and suffers for.
 
No, it’s not upside down at all.
Jesus is Both: 1. Jesus is the example to husbands on how to love their wives sacrificially and 2. Jesus is the example on how to submit her will to her husband’s will.
He gave us both examples.
 
This feels borderline sexist and unfair. Should a wife submit to an abusive husband?
 
Am I right in guessing you didn’t read any of the posts in this thread?
 
Wife.of.Gabriel said:
Final decisions must lie with someone to avoid chaos. Family decisions must be made by the Father of each immediate family, according to Christian Tradition.
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Do you mean ALL final decisions or just ones that he’s more knowledgeable about? Your stance seems to be very black and white, when in some marriages the wife is really a lot smarter and/or has more common sense. Or most commonly, each spouse has stregnths in different areas and so decisions are made together, with the person who is less knowledgeable in an area willing to give the other person’s opinion more weight.
 
These are all things we discuss and the final decisions lie with him. He loves me, just as Christ commands Him, and so naturally he wants me to be happy while maintaining our budget. Now, it did take him awhile to come around to buying Charmin, but I loved and obeyed him through out his testing of generic versions of toliet paper until he realized there is nothing remotely close to Charmin and he found a way to fit it into our budget. Lol. His Love & my Obedience are a wonderful thing, both commanded by God for our benefit.
 
That’s the privilege of being born male. You are seen as a leader and women have to fight to be given the same opportunity as men unfortunately. I believe that not one person can be the leader all the time, there has to be compromises in relationships and to just point and say he is the leader she is the leader is not realistic because a relationship is a partnership where both can be the ‘leader’ at different times. A lot of men are quick to say oh we lead and a lot of women fight back saying no women lead which is understandable given the way society puts roles on women. But in reality Both are the leader and both are the follower at different times.
 
very sexist and outdated view. I can assure you many healthy relationships do not do this. Also I’m pretty sure it’s not a Christian tradition
 
We Know it’s God’s Will for Husbands to love their wives and for wives to obey their husband. Christian Tradition (Bible, Magestarium, Papal Writings) is clear on this issue.

Now, if the husband doesn’t obey God’s Will to love his wife that’s between him and God. He’ll be responsible to answer for that. Just as the wife will answer for not obeying God’s Will of she chooses to disobey her husband. And like the Bible verse you quoted, through her obedience het husband may be saved.

Read the life of St. Monica, she’s a perfect example of that type of situation in marriage.

Our Faith is counter-cultural.
 
Yes and obedience I’d think looks very much the same. I actually honestly believe this whole passage was intended to demonstrate the different forms love takes on (submission, faithfulness, forgiveness) and then bring a total sense of equality to all of it. Speaking in very general terms, my husband agree that to him, respect is the highest form of love I can show him. He knows faithfulness is mine. I think this holds true in many male/female relationships and many (not all) fall into those roles based on gender. Paul, in one fell swoop, equates them all so that in Christ there is no male nor female, slave nor free, Jew or gentile. (Gal. 3:28 paraphrase) Perfect unity and equality in love. Even though equality does NOT equal identical. 🙂
 
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Lots of people claim Catholicism is outdated, but whatever. They just don’t realize all that Jesus asks of us through Catholicism is for our own benefit.

I encourage you to get familiar with the lives of the Saints, especially wives… like St. Monica.

If you research the Bible, the Saints and Catholic Church documents regarding marriage, you’ll find it is Catholic Christian Tradition for wives to be obedient to their husbands.
 
What do you think a woman should do if her husband orders her to pack up her bags and move to another country with him?

Just want to know how your idea of a marriage looks like.
 
So if loving and submitting looks the same, why is there the need to differentiate these roles? You said the husband has the more difficult part here, but I’m failing to see it since she is supposed to do the same as well?
 
you might get banned for that post. I got banned three times just for posting my opinion that wasn’t even bad. Like censorship. Watch me get banned for this comment too
 
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