What exactly is the soul?

[inocente]

Excellent - and funny .

shaw:

*Very curious comment. Since at least high school I understood that man’s soul was a spirit, similar to the nature of an angel. We are made in God’s image, right? Shouldn’t that mean that we have a spiritual or immaterial side to our nature, which makes us a " little less " than the angels, " and very, very remotely similar to God, who we know is a Spirit?

And if we have a spiritual or immaterial side to our nature, wouldn’t it most likely be the seat of our reason or intellect? And how would this entail the breaking of the laws of nature? That is a very curious comment.

Would you mind explaing how the mind does " tricks " and violates laws of nature. Very curious about that.*

First, angels must break at least one law of nature. Simply by the act of speaking, as in Luke 1:13, the angel has to make air vibrate, which breaks the law of conservation of energy, since there’s no physical causation to the air moving.

Second, if our mind doesn’t break any law of nature then there’s no reason why anything more than the brain (well, central nervous system) is needed. Only if it must break a law of nature, as do angels, would anything non-physical be necessary.

inocente;13044989:

And, of course, that would be a huge claim requiring lots of evidence, since it would mean that some aspect of the human mind is the only composite phenomenon in the entire universe which is so disordered that it follows no pattern, even in principle, and is therefore forever inexplicable.

I know you are just repeating what you have read or heard. It is a very curious comment to make, it needs to be explained. And why are you bringing it up?

Nope, I’m not repeating any dogma. The reason I brought it up is that earlier (post #57) you said “the conscious mind ( in some mysterious way we will never know ) …”.

Now the only reason why we could never know is that there is something occult, hidden, something which can never be analyzed even in principle, and so could never be described by a law of nature. So , what’s your evidence for your huge claim?

I never have and you are the first person I have heard express the need to do so. I am me, the whole shebang, body and soul. From the top of my head to the bottoms of my feet - I am a self aware, conscious, thinking person.

I was responding to a question from yppop.

*We are children of God, like him spiritually and intellectually, unlike him physically.

As Richa said above, " We think with our intellect and love with our will. We share in God’s image and likeness according to these two spiritual powers of our soul. The angels also have intelligence and will but they are wholly spiritual and immaterial and thus they by nature are more like God than we are. Yes, this is catholic dogma. The human souls of the blessed in heaven who see God face to face though they are without their material brains are not there as though they are vegetables. They see and know God with their intellects and love him with their wills and are supremely happy. "*

Are intellect and will categories invented by Señor Aristotle? Whatever, leaving his speculative scheme aside, start from the CCC’s “the soul is the form of the body”. It’s not really my theology but I guess it’s yours. So: a soul in heaven must have a body for it to be the form of; the body must have a brain since a brain is part of the body; and if the brain is the seat of the mind, the soul is therefore complete. No?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . an example diagnosis of a stroke patient who can no longer recognize faces.

The brain, the stuff between the ears of the patient, has suffered damage due to the stroke, and so the mind, the faculty of awareness and consciousness, can no longer recognize faces.

Now that doesn’t rely on any philosophical debate about the mind, it’s simply a brute fact which is part of reality for many doctors and patients worldwide. We could, I guess, claim that’s not really the mind, the mind is elsewhere, but if we look at all the other aspects of mind that are known to stop working following damage to various areas of the brain, there’s nowhere else for the mind to hide. . .

As you state, the mind can no longer recognize faces.
The brain does not recognize faces. The mind does. Once the brain is damaged, it cannot do so.

There is a certain amount of plasticity in the brain allowing for some hope of recovery after minor strokes. The moulding of new physical connections between nerve cells and the taking on of lost functions by other nearby areas of the brain is not haphazard, caused solely by physiological (ie brain) processes in themselves, but is guided by the mind. Through speech therapy, some of what was lost can be relearned.

 

[inocente]

How about considering that they are one and the same thing. This means that the mind, as a collection of ideas, feelings etc exists in physical space as brain.

“Mind” refers to the way in which mental events influence one another while “brain” describes how it all works physically; but, it is ultimately one and the same thing,seen differently depending on the different factors which influence it.

The mental aspect of this moment as we look onto the monitor is probably the best point to start - colours, shapes, words and ideas, the awesome capacity to think and know.

The monitor and ourselves are physical events occurring within the totality of the universe that surrounds us.
We know about materials, electronics, photons, retinas, optic nerves and other tracts, the cerebral cortex.

All these considerations in which we are engaged are involving neurophysiological processes in the brain.
Our senses connect us to matter that surrounds us.
We can visualize them as the pictures and diagrams we find in texts and on the web.
Much of science is mathematics, most is visual.
The visual world is a representation which connects us at a distance; we are separate from that which this sense touches.
This is important in how we relate to that which it reveals. It remains perceptually “out there” although we are actually communing with it.

So, we have a concept of what is brain and know a great deal about its physiology, how it works in its participation in the world of matter.

The brain does not generate mental phenomena; its processes are mental phenomena.

We have analogies, mathematical and visual representations of what is the brain, a neuron, chemicals, atoms and such.
What these material events are in themselves, as they exist as parts of the person, is what is transpiring right here as we read.
This is all brain.

Inocente, as you said the idea of an elephant is not an elephant.
The idea of the brain, is not the brain.
Except that it is in another sense, since a specific process in the brain is the idea of the brain.

It gets more complicated (simpler actually) in that the person, above all, is relational in nature. Our being “connects” to the world and its Ground.

Ultimately, it is a person who has a brain-mind and that person is defined by their unique relational spirit.

I think I see where you’re going with this. It’s strange that colors only exist in our heads. Rays of light vary in frequency but have no color. Most rays are outside the narrow frequency range we can see, and lots of things are too small for us to detect anyway. Our awareness of the world is quite limited. Dogs, with their much better sense of smell but lesser ability to reason, must live in a different reality to ours. So yes, our world is intimately tied up with what we are.

Or perhaps I didn’t get you - I think you’re more given to poetic thoughts, which btw is a compliment not a put-down.

 

[Faith1960]

If you are sincere…what point are you finding unclear?

Im sincere, and I mean pretty much the entire conversation.

 

[Faith1960]

Faith1960,

As I told my little nephew years ago: “Your brain is part of your head; your mind is part of your soul.”

One consists of cells and blood vessels and synapses, the other, of thoughts, ideas and memories.

One cannot find the mind by examining the brain, nor do our thoughts tell us much about the operation of the head-gear that makes them possible.

ICXC NIKA.

If the soul/mind consists of thoughts, memories etc. then how can PET scans light up when people are thinking?

 

[GEddie]

**If **the human mind is physical, then any interaction of that mind with a nonphysical Divinity would be counter to the laws of physics.

If, however, the nous is spiritual and simply resides in the head, which it uses to reduce physical impressions to mind; then no such violations would be expected.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

If the soul/mind consists of thoughts, memories etc. then how can PET scans light up when people are thinking?

Because the psyche/nous utilizes the head, and therefore the body, as a support structure.

The soul is the life but requires the body to hold the life.

The soul (psyche) generates the mind (nous) but needs the head to support the process in a time/sense environment.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[Faith1960]

Because the psyche/nous utilizes the head, and therefore the body, as a support structure.

The soul is the life but requires the body to hold the life.

The soul (psyche) generates the mind (nous) but needs the head to support the process in a time/sense environment.

ICXC NIKA.

So its the body that makes it all work?

 

[ynotzap]

interesting when you said that emotions are human reactions, in scripture paul tells us that the body and soul are in a constant struggle. I guess things like selfless love and finding and being close to God is what the soul produces while the body wants material things or things thats good for the body (sleep,food, etc) That our spiritual self is at war with our body that acts on impulses and natural law

Forgive me for not picking up an important point in your post. “that our spiritual self is at war with our body that acts on impulses and natural law.”

Because we are union of spirit and matter, our spiritual self is at war not with our body, but with itself, the body can only act according to the natural law, but our spirit can act (because it can make a choice) against natural law regarding man’s nature. You see the spirit finds itself too weak to resist those physical impulses which are natural to the body when those impulses should not control a rational creature to do irrational things, so when we let the impulses dictate to us what to do when it is not the rational thing to do, we go against the natural law of the mind which is to act “rationally” There is a leaning in human nature to be swayed by natural physical impulses which can influence a person to go against the "natural law’ of the mind( which we Christians identify as the Decalogue- a reiteration of the Natural Law that many do not recognize)

 

[Faith1960]

Because the psyche/nous utilizes the head, and therefore the body, as a support structure.

The soul is the life but requires the body to hold the life.

The soul (psyche) generates the mind (nous) but needs the head to support the process in a time/sense environment.

ICXC NIKA.

Never mind what I asked earlier. I still dont get it.

 

[Abba]

Im sincere, and I mean pretty much the entire conversation.

I understand what you are saying. It’s part of the “I am a genius game” to write so elevated and present ideas so systematically that others feel stupid. Disregard all the mumbo jumbo. People need to write so they can communicate their thoughts to others, if they don’t - pay them no mind.

 

[Abba]

Never mind what I asked earlier. I still dont get it.

Try this:

Oscar De La Renta in his time (he passed away this passed November - may he rest in peace) would design a particular dress for a particular woman. The dress would fit just fine and compliment the particular body of the woman. When the woman puts the dress on it takes a particular shape (silhouette) based on the body that is wearing it.

Apply that idea to the soul. God made a particular soul for each particular body.

In a way, it is as though the soul is imposed on the body like the dress, but, not really as the body and soul become one (are integrated).

Put that on the back burner.

+++

Now, consider a pair of glasses. My body uses the glasses that were made particularly for my needs so I can see better. I use the glasses to see.

Now, let’s turn that idea around and apply it to the soul.

Similarly, the soul uses the body (glasses) for it’s functions. So, the mind and intellect which are elements/aspects (?) of the soul use the brain (glasses )etc… to function. if there is a malfunction (Alzheimer - glasses got seriously scratched ))the soul cannot use it.

I hope this helps you instead of confuse you more.

 

[GEddie]

In a way, it is as though the soul is imposed on the body like the dress, but, not really as the body and soul become one.

The soul and body are always one, although initially there is not the appearance of a body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

So its the body that makes it all work?

Body allows it all to function.

Contrary to popular belief, we are not spirits, we are breathing minds, and thinking bodies.

Although some of our functioning may well go into an abeyance when death chokes off our breathing, our mind will be preserved spiritually, unto the pneumatikon soma (spiritual body).

ICXC NIKA

 

[Faith1960]

Try this:

Oscar De La Renta in his time (he passed away this passed November - may he rest in peace) would design a particular dress for a particular woman. The dress would fit just fine and compliment the particular body of the woman. When the woman puts the dress on it takes a particular shape (silhouette) based on the body that is wearing it.

Apply that idea to the soul. God made a particular soul for each particular body.

In a way, it is as though the soul is imposed on the body like the dress, but, not really as the body and soul become one (are integrated).

Put that on the back burner.

+++

Now, consider a pair of glasses. My body uses the glasses that were made particularly for my needs so I can see better. I use the glasses to see.

Now, let’s turn that idea around and apply it to the soul.

Similarly, the soul uses the body (glasses) for it’s functions. So, the mind and intellect which are elements/aspects (?) of the soul use the brain (glasses )etc… to function. if there is a malfunction (Alzheimer - glasses got seriously scratched ))the soul cannot use it.

I hope this helps you instead of confuse you more.

That was helpful, thanks!

 

[Faith1960]

The soul and body are always one, although initially there is not the appearance of a body.

ICXC NIKA

Meaning? That the soul is eternal?

 

[Abba]

The soul and body are always one, although initially there is not the appearance of a body.

ICXC NIKA

Hello GEddie,

Not to get off topic, ehum…

Well, the Church has not declared this but members on high have guided us in the past 50 or so years to the understanding that the soul is infused in the body at the moment of conception. However, this was not the teaching of the Church and the Church has not declared it.

I think Saint Thomas rushed to accept Aristotle’s understanding of the fetus because there is really nothing in the Bible which oppose it. He could have even considered that God first formed Adam and then breathed life into him. There is also that incident in the OT where a fetus is not considered a life.

There are Catholic religious organizations which maintain, as from of old, the understanding that the soul is infused at the fourth or so month of conception (which is what was taught as per Aquinas for hundreds of years).

At any rate, I live as though the soul is infused at the moment of conception. Better safe than sorry - until the Church makes a formal declaration. Besides the fetus is at the very least a human being in formation and deserves the respect and consideration as a fully formed human being in my book.

Peace.

P.s. Sorry about typing ‘passed’ when I should have typed ‘past’. English is not my first language and I sometimes rush to communicate my thoughts and do not pay much attention to the writing.

 

[GEddie]

Meaning? That the soul is eternal?

The soul is not eternal, but timeless. It is anchored to time however, via the.
human body.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Hello GEddie,

Not to get off topic, ehum…

Well, the Church has not declared this but members on high have guided us in the past 50 or so years to the understanding that the soul is infused in the body at the moment of conception. However, this was not the teaching of the Church and the Church has not declared it.

I think Saint Thomas rushed to accept Aristotle’s understanding of the fetus because there is really nothing in the Bible which oppose it. He could have even considered that God first formed Adam and then breathed life into him. There is also that incident in the OT where a fetus is not considered a life.

There are Catholic religious organizations which maintain, as from of old, the understanding that the soul is infused at the fourth or so month of conception (which is what was taught as per Aquinas for hundreds of years).

At any rate, I live as though the soul is infused at the moment of conception. Better safe than sorry - until the Church makes a formal declaration. Besides the fetus is at the very least a human being in formation and deserves the respect and consideration as a fully formed human being in my book.

Peace.

P.s. Sorry about typing ‘passed’ when I should have typed ‘past’. English is not my first language and I sometimes rush to communicate my thoughts and do not pay much attention to the writing.

I did not mean to say anything about conception. But even without reference to conception, certainly there would be a soul, long before the embryo looked like a “body.”

ICXC NIKA

 

[Linusthe2nd]

There are definitely some memories that pertain to the brain, or rather the body.

“Muscular memory” or procedural skill memory would fall into this category, as such memories are unusable without the services of a body. You won’t need piano-playing abilities when your hands are dead. But once you have your new hands in Heaven, it would come back to you (assuming you had it in the first place)

I know that is what the psychologists would say, but I disagree. The body does nothing without the soul, it is the soul which directs and governs all the bodies activities.

Linus2nd