What good has come out of Vatican II?

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Another good thing about Vatican II is that now we’re allowed to pray in our own words instead of only praying official translations of latin prayers.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Another good thing about Vatican II is that now we’re allowed to pray in our own words instead of only praying official translations of latin prayers.
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Yeah, the prayer police that the Vatican had installed in every Catholic home were such a nuisance!
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Another good thing about Vatican II is that now we’re allowed to pray in our own words instead of only praying official translations of latin prayers.
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

We were always allowed to pray in our own words my friend, except when you prayed certain established prayers., for which we still use official translations do we not?
 
I’m pretty fond of the mindset that has infected both many a faithful and unfaithful Catholic that at Vatican II something “changed” and what was before, including the liturgy, is new and is in tune with the modern world. There was a new way of thinking that was born. That is Vatican II’s legacy sadly, at least for now. No longer is the darkness of the world in opposition to the light of the Church since people are trying to open the Church up to the modern world as if light had anything in common with darkness.

Pax Christi tecum.
 
elts1956 said:
While you, I, we are “wanting” let’s remember that 95% of the Saints after Vatican II experience the NO. Reverence is in the heart of the reverent. TLM, while beautiful, is foreign to most Catholics who were born, raised, or converted after Vatican II. And I agree we see/hear of much irreverence toward the Mass since Vatican II. But if we had looked around, I think much of the same would have been evident before Vatican II. The traditions, the small things we who experienced the TLM in its hey day are missed so very much and are no longer around unless we emphasize them to our children in our homes. Hopefully much of this will return. It was a part of the Catholic culture and part of what identified us as Catholic.
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Sin and irreverance have existed since day one. One cannot say, therefore, that since irreverance and sin existed during the days before VII, that it doesn’t matter if you have the New Mass or the Traditional Mass because " Reverence is in the heart of the reverent". What Traditionalists are saying is this: Do not dump the faith and sacred traditions of the Apostles and Fathers beacause sin existed before VII and we might as well have the New Mass. We want the best possible Mass atmosphere and that the Western Church can provide. Do not discard for the sake of novelty and relevance, the wisdom, the learning,and the experience that organically created with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Traditional Mass and other Sacramnentstraditionas/QUOTE]
 
palmas85 said:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

We were always allowed to pray in our own words my friend, except when you prayed certain established prayers., for which we still use official translations do we not?
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Exactly. You now what is absolutely amazing, though Conservatives, probably, would find no problem with it, is that all these objections to, and criticisms of the Traditional Mass and other Sacraments have all been made before. They have been made by every heretic and schismatic all the way down the line, especially by the Protestant “Reformers”. Complaints about how the Mass has been corrupted by all those “traditions” and that we “got to get back” to that upper room. Here are some of these claims, see if they sound familier: We don’t understand latin, why does the Church pray in Latin?, we don’t get anything out of it. We have to know what is going on. The Church uses Latin to “fool” the people. All that insense and genuflecting and repetitions, annd kneeling is pagan. We should pray and worship “from the heart” that’s what matters. All those externals is pagan, we don’t really need them, we don’t need anything, just the Lord. Why does the priest turn his back on the people, Christ would never do that. The priest should say everything aloud. Saying things in a low tone, or the priest saying things inaudibly in not right. The people must hear everything. We should communicate in both specied just like Chris, don’t we follow what Scripture says?
These can go on and on and on. And they match, pretty much all the complaints about how the Traditional Mass, made by Conservatives and liberals here in this forum,. The Church finally had to condemn these criticisms in the Council of Trent:

CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.

These anathemas continue, check this link for the Council of Trents documents: thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm
 
keepitreal said:
Exactly. You now what is absolutely amazing, though Conservatives, probably, would find no problem with it, is that all these objections to, and criticisms of the Traditional Mass and other Sacraments have all been made before. They have been made by every heretic and schismatic all the way down the line, especially by the Protestant “Reformers”. Complaints about how the Mass has been corrupted by all those “traditions” and that we “got to get back” to that upper room. Here are some of these claims, see if they sound familier: We don’t understand latin, why does the Church pray in Latin?, we don’t get anything out of it. We have to know what is going on. The Church uses Latin to “fool” the people. All that insense and genuflecting and repetitions, annd kneeling is pagan. We should pray and worship “from the heart” that’s what matters. All those externals is pagan, we don’t really need them, we don’t need anything, just the Lord. Why does the priest turn his back on the people, Christ would never do that. The priest should say everything aloud. Saying things in a low tone, or the priest saying things inaudibly is not right. The people must hear everything. We should communicate in both species just like Christ wanted, don’t we follow what Scripture says?
These can go on and on and on. And they match, pretty much all the complaints about how the Traditional Mass, made by Conservatives and liberals here in this forum,. The Church finally had to condemn these criticisms in the Council of Trent:

CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.

These anathemas continue, check this link for the Council of Trents documents: thecounciloftrent.com/ch22.htm
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keepitreal said:
Sin and irreverance have existed since day one. One cannot say, therefore, that since irreverance and sin existed during the days before VII, that it doesn’t matter if you have the New Mass or the Traditional Mass because " Reverence is in the heart of the reverent". What Traditionalists are saying is this: Do not dump the faith and sacred traditions of the Apostles and Fathers beacause sin existed before VII and we might as well have the New Mass. We want the best possible Mass atmosphere and that the Western Church can provide. Do not discard for the sake of novelty and relevance, the wisdom, the learning,and the experience that organically created with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Traditional Mass and other Sacramnentstraditionas/QUOTE]
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I didn’t say that. What I am saying is that those folks especially who have known only the NO are properly versed in the beliefs of the Church and follow the traditions of the Catholic Church can be just as reverent as anyone who went to Mass during pre-Vatican II times, or by attending TLM today. I don’t really think the basic faith has been dumped anywhre. I am purely ignorant of the sacred traditions of the Apostles???What traditions of the Apostles are you talking about? Would you clarify? Thanks.
 
keepitreal said:
Do not discard for the sake of novelty and relevance, the wisdom, the learning,and the experience that organically created with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Traditional Mass and other Sacramnentstraditionas/QUOTE]
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I do not think anyone proposes we drop anything. If the Church changes the Mass, then we follow all the traditions of the Church including obedience and respect for those in authority. We honor what came out of Vatican II as Catholics before honored all other Church councils.
 
keepitreal said:
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
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Does this mean that it’s still anathema to believe that mass should be celebrated in English?
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Does this mean that it’s still anathema to believe that mass should be celebrated in English?
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To believe that the Mass should only be celebrated in the vernacular is, indeed, still anathema. I think this means that if you believe a Mass celebrated with any Latin whatsoever is somehow abhorrent or bad or not pleasing to God, you’re wrong. There were some Protestant reformers who thought that, it would seem.
 
The canonical punishment of anathema no longer exists. It went out twenty years ago with the latest addition of the Code of Canon Law.
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Does this mean that it’s still anathema to believe that mass should be celebrated in English?
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Should, or “can” be celebrated? I don’t think the NO should be abolished, but I am happy TLM is making a comeback. I have missed it and didn’t realize it. 🙂
 
Sometimes it seems as though you Trads won’t be happy until the Church returns to the Middle Ages. Presently, you enjoy the best of both worlds – Vatican II is here to stay, yet you can still attend the Latin Mass. What’s there to be unhappy about? Why not live and let live?🙂
 
Sometimes it seems as though you Trads won’t be happy until the Church returns to the Middle Ages. Presently, you enjoy the best of both worlds – Vatican II is here to stay, yet you can still attend the Latin Mass. What’s there to be unhappy about? Why not live and let live?🙂
 
Sometimes it seems as though you Trads won’t be happy until the Church returns to the Middle Ages. Presently, you enjoy the best of both worlds – Vatican II is here to stay, yet you can still attend the Latin Mass. What’s there to be unhappy about? Why not live and let live?🙂
 
KingAlfred said:
I don’t want a Latin Mass because I don’t speak Latin. And I don’t want to live in a church that’s heavy-handed in the enforcement of its ancient rules. I’m human, and want humane treatment.
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Latin Mass is inhumane? Is there an anti-cruelty drive going on to eliminate it? 🙂
 
Neil_Anthony said:
To people who don’t live in medieval rome and hence don’t speak latin.
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There are people who don’t speak Mandarin. Does that mean it’s medieval and not worth it? I mean, c’mon Latin is the language of the Church and both forms of the Mass; I think at some point it would behoove us to know a few Latin words. Or is it just stubborness that resists picking up a missal or book that contains any Latin in it? I can’t think of any other reason.
 
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