What good has come out of Vatican II?

[Neil_Anthony]

You are confusing “canon law” with canons from Councils.

Ohhh… sorry

 

[SFD]

Also, there is confusion of anathema with “damning” when they are not the same thing. The penalty of anathema is not longer used. This does not mean it is no longer in effect for those in Hell, not that the Church performs final judgement anyway. One more interesting note is that canon law only applies to Catholics.

This is true; but only for ecclesiastical (or human) laws. The Divine law…the Natural Law and the Divine Positive Law (as far as one may understand it) is binding on ALL persons.

SFD

 

[strugglingalong]

Also, there is confusion of anathema with “damning” when they are not the same thing. The penalty of anathema is not longer used. This does not mean it is no longer in effect for those in Hell, not that the Church performs final judgement anyway. One more interesting note is that canon law only applies to Catholics.

When you say the anathema is no longer used - which I thought you said had been abrogated, which is different than just not being used - that doesn’t mean it can’t be used again. Are you just saying that Vatican II didn’t use any anathema’s and then making that the rule for the Church?

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[minkymurph]

I don’t know why people who haven’t experienced TLM before think they must “learn” to speak the Latin language. I grew up with TLM and still can’t converse in Latin, but what I can do is read and pronounce it while also looking at the English translation of the Latin on the adjoining page of the Missal.

The reason people don’t know is because as you say, they have never experienced it. During the Latin Mass for instance, is the Homily said in Latin, or is it in the native tongue?

You could argue that a Latin translation could be placed beside an English one, or whatever the language of the country is to make the Mass accessible to those who do not speak the native language, such as visitors to the country. I would say yes International Masses such as the one I attended in Lourdes could be in Latin as there are people of so many different languages attending.

 

[japhy]

The reason people don’t know is because as you say, they have never experienced it. During the Latin Mass for instance, is the Homily said in Latin, or is it in the native tongue?

Only rarely is a homily done in Latin, and that would be primarily found at international gatherings. The homily/sermon is for the edification of the faithful.

 

[minkymurph]

Only rarely is a homily done in Latin, and that would be primarily found at international gatherings. The homily/sermon is for the edification of the faithful.

Understand that I personally have nothing against the prayers and responses in the Mass being said in Latin. I would have nothing against them being said in the native tongue of the country either. I am just trying to understand why many people think, as it appears to me and I may be mistaken, why it is a bad thing to say it in another language.

I can understand the ‘argument,’ (placed in Italics as it’s not the best word to use) about accessiblilty of the Mass. However, would it be a bad thing if people who are not Catholic and attended a Mass could understand it? That could be a good thing as if the first Mass I attended had been in Latin, I don’t think it would have meant as much to me as I would not have understood the responses etc. The fact that I could understand it, it meant more. I would like to say however that I do actually like Latin and I have tried to learn some prayers in Latin. I love ‘Ave Maria’ sang in Latin and would love to learn it in Latin as I like singing. I have the words I got off the Internet but I can’t pronounce them!

Incidently, do people sing at Mass in other parts of the world? Here only the choir sings and a few of the very brave among the people (but not very loudly!) and I would love to be able to sing at Mass. Before anyone says it, no I can’t join the choir as I have my two young sons with me and my husband is not Catholic.

I also find it hard to understand why some say the meaning is lost if Latin is not used. Surely there are expert translators in the Catholic Church; the Bible has been translated, the Catechism has been translated and does the Holy Spirit not protect truth?

 

[ProVobis]

Also, there is confusion of anathema with “damning” when they are not the same thing. The penalty of anathema is not longer used.

Penalty is still there but, just as a lot of things are these days, it simply is not enforced. Where is it documented that today’s Canon Law has replaced a council’s teachings, a doctinal one at that? How can anyone undermine the Council of Trent in this manner? Trent’s documents say what they say, they were accepted by Catholics for over 400 years, have not been contradicted by Vatican II, there is current Canon Law that strongly suggest studying Latin, and most, if not all, Vatican II Popes have encouraged Latin. So why the denial?

 

[ProVobis]

During the Latin Mass for instance, is the Homily said in Latin, or is it in the native tongue?

The homily is not part of the Mass. And I’ve heard bilingual homilies, and not necessarily “native” either.

 

[elts1956]

The reason people don’t know is because as you say, they have never experienced it. During the Latin Mass for instance, is the Homily said in Latin, or is it in the native tongue?

You could argue that a Latin translation could be placed beside an English one, or whatever the language of the country is to make the Mass accessible to those who do not speak the native language, such as visitors to the country. I would say yes International Masses such as the one I attended in Lourdes could be in Latin as there are people of so many different languages attending.

I would LOVE to go to Lourdes. St. Bernadette is probably my favorite Saint right up there with St. Francis of Assisi. What language was used to say the Mass when you were at Lourdes? French? Latin would have been wonderful.

 

[elts1956]

The reason people don’t know is because as you say, they have never experienced it. During the Latin Mass for instance, is the Homily said in Latin, or is it in the native tongue?

You could argue that a Latin translation could be placed beside an English one, or whatever the language of the country is to make the Mass accessible to those who do not speak the native language, such as visitors to the country. I would say yes International Masses such as the one I attended in Lourdes could be in Latin as there are people of so many different languages attending.

Understand that I personally have nothing against the prayers and responses in the Mass being said in Latin. I would have nothing against them being said in the native tongue of the country either. I am just trying to understand why many people think, as it appears to me and I may be mistaken, why it is a bad thing to say it in another language.

I can understand the ‘argument,’ (placed in Italics as it’s not the best word to use) about accessiblilty of the Mass. However, would it be a bad thing if people who are not Catholic and attended a Mass could understand it? That could be a good thing as if the first Mass I attended had been in Latin, I don’t think it would have meant as much to me as I would not have understood the responses etc. The fact that I could understand it, it meant more. I would like to say however that I do actually like Latin and I have tried to learn some prayers in Latin. I love ‘Ave Maria’ sang in Latin and would love to learn it in Latin as I like singing. I have the words I got off the Internet but I can’t pronounce them!

Incidently, do people sing at Mass in other parts of the world? Here only the choir sings and a few of the very brave among the people (but not very loudly!) and I would love to be able to sing at Mass. Before anyone says it, no I can’t join the choir as I have my two young sons with me and my husband is not Catholic.

I also find it hard to understand why some say the meaning is lost if Latin is not used. Surely there are expert translators in the Catholic Church; the Bible has been translated, the Catechism has been translated and does the Holy Spirit not protect truth?

Just thought of another topic relating to this. I have found that I, even though I have been Catholic for over seventy years, have never understood, was never taught the MEANING of the rituals and movements the priest makes during Mass. I have been trying to rectify this, but so far, haven’t been very consistent in teaching myself this. The “bit” I did learn was so impressive to me. I remember going to Sunday Mass after beginning to investigate this and suddenly realized, “Oh, now I know what he is doing.” (Speaking of the priest.) So much more meaningful than just the kneeling, standing sitting I had done all my live. So boring. This can be done whether you are attending the NO or TLM. So no excuses, including my own…

 

[japhy]

The homily is not part of the Mass. And I’ve heard bilingual homilies, and not necessarily “native” either.

Just a point of clarification. In the Extraordinary Form (EF) of Mass, the homily/sermon is not a part of the liturgy. In the Ordinary Form (OF) of Mass, it is. The term “the Latin Mass” is terribly confusing, since the EF is celebrated in Latin and the OF can be celebrated in Latin.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I would LOVE to go to Lourdes. St. Bernadette is probably my favorite Saint right up there with St. Francis of Assisi. What language was used to say the Mass when you were at Lourdes? French? Latin would have been wonderful.

There are English Masses there. French, too, I’m sure, but don’t recall.

There were no EF Masses when I was there (2006), but obviously it may be different now.

It’s quite an experience to be there.

 

[japhy]

I am just trying to understand why many people think, as it appears to me and I may be mistaken, why it is a bad thing to say it in another language.

If the vernacular is used, you run the risk of using vulgar and inaccurate vernacular; “cup” instead of “chalice”, “plate” instead of “paten”, “dishes” instead of “sacred vessels”, “born” instead of “incarnate”, etc. Latin maintains uniformity around the world. It also means you can operate knowing just that amount of Latin necessary for active participation in the Mass, rather than having to know bits and pieces of a handful of languages (should the need ever arise to attend Mass in another country, for example).

However, would it be a bad thing if people who are not Catholic and attended a Mass could understand it? That could be a good thing as if the first Mass I attended had been in Latin, I don’t think it would have meant as much to me as I would not have understood the responses etc. The fact that I could understand it, it meant more.

But you also run the risk of thinking that because you understand the words, you understand their meaning; but that is rarely the case with something new and foreign to us. We might think we know it, because we understand English, but if you sit down at carefully read the words of the Mass, you might find there’s a healthy dose of mystery (or at least, there should be, if the translation is decent) and some things that could use some explaining.

Latin safeguards the mysteries of Christ from being desacralized and made profane.

I also find it hard to understand why some say the meaning is lost if Latin is not used. Surely there are expert translators in the Catholic Church; the Bible has been translated, the Catechism has been translated and does the Holy Spirit not protect truth?

The Holy Spirit does not guarantee that we will have good translations every time. The New American Bible is not that great a translation, for example. And the current English translation of the Mass isn’t accurate in many places.

 

[scott122]

The revised Lectionary, with a 3-year cycle is definitely a good thing. And the inclusion of Old Testament readings is certainly exposing Catholics to more of the Bible than in the past.

Now if we’d all read the Bible more, that would be even better!

 

[Fstopf22]

After reading all of these posts, I have to ask myself: what happened to “full communion?”

 

[ncjohn]

Latin safeguards the mysteries of Christ from being desacralized and made profane.

Baloney.

I went to hundreds of Latin masses in the pre-Vatican II days and I can tell you the mysteries were “desacralized” all the time. You can have all the “right” words without having a bit of mystery, reverence or sacredness.

 

[elts1956]

Baloney.

I went to hundreds of Latin masses in the pre-Vatican II days and I can tell you the mysteries were “desacralized” all the time. You can have all the “right” words without having a bit of mystery, reverence or sacredness.

That is true, but the lack of mystery, reverence and sacredness isn’t because of the language, but due to those attending the Mass. I am not for TLM only, but I do think when dogmas, beliefs are translated from the Latin, great care must be taken in the translating from Latin to the vernacular. I have no idea if this is done, or not. According to some, there are a lot of weird things going on with interpretations of many teachings of the Chruch.

 

[elts1956]

After reading all of these posts, I have to ask myself: what happened to “full communion?”

Expound please. I haven’t heard the term “full communion” before, but that could have been because I didn’t listen.

 

[mm3861]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask?
Let’s see… The liturgy has been butchered beyond comprehension. The Music resembles a really bad Peter Paul & Mary concert. Catechesis in the true faith is virtually non-existent. Tens of millions of Catholics take the “cafeteria” approach, or have either lost their faith completely. A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims. Judging by condition of the Church during the past 40 years, I would say that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster!!!

 

[elts1956]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask?
Let’s see… The liturgy has been butchered beyond comprehension. The Music resembles a really bad Peter Paul & Mary concert. Catechesis in the true faith is virtually non-existent. Tens of millions of Catholics take the “cafeteria” approach, or have either lost their faith completely. A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims. Judging by condition of the Church during the past 40 years, I would say that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster!!!

I would not say that Vatican II per se was an unmitigated disaster, but the understanding of what it was to do was greatly misunderstood. I am not aware of having experienced Liturgical abuse, nor does all the music at my Parish resemble Peter Paul and Mary’y selections.

My quesition is, since I am now awake, is who allowed all of these abuses to occur? Where was the big brother I was so used to growing up pre-Vatican II? Where were the faithful who were more aware than I was "duh:! that everthing was not “right” with the Church. They were probably slapped down??? I have not read the documents of Vatican II and I understand they are quite difficult to understand, but perhaps someone more knowledgeable who has studied the changes, both good and bad could enlighten us.

I do completey understand about true Catechesis being hard to come by. When I talk about the Catholic Faith to some Catholics, I get either very different understandings of what they think is the law of the Church, or over the top rigidness.