What good has come out of Vatican II?

[elts1956]

Expound please. I haven’t heard the term “full communion” before, but that could have been because I didn’t listen.

The brain is now functioning again. In the term “full communion” are you talking about being in “full communion” with the church?

 

[mm3861]

My quesition is, since I am now awake, is who allowed all of these abuses to occur? Where was the big brother I was so used to growing up pre-Vatican II?

I do completey understand about true Catechesis being hard to come by. When I talk about the Catholic Faith to some Catholics, I get either very different understandings of what they think is the law of the Church, or over the top rigidness.

The bishops have chosen to embrace the “world” turning a blind eye to all of the problems and disobedience. Allowing hippy music to infect the liturgy was a misguided attempt to attract young people in this country who were under the influence of communist inspired rebellion against all authority, secular and religious. The liturgy as well as the Church buildings themselves have been heavily protestantized in order to promote ecumenism.

Obedience to Church law and teachings should never be interpreted as “over the top rigidness”. While I recognize that all of us are flawed and make mistakes, deliberate disobedience to Church and moral law is called sin. This is all part of the same rotten fish. Post Vatican II has been a disaster strictly due to a lack of leadership.

 

[minkymurph]

I would LOVE to go to Lourdes. St. Bernadette is probably my favorite Saint right up there with St. Francis of Assisi. What language was used to say the Mass when you were at Lourdes? French? Latin would have been wonderful.

I took the name Bernadette as my confirmation name. You can hear a Mass in just about any language you want in Lourdes. There is an International Mass on Sunday which is huge. There must have been about 50 priests giving out the Eucharist there are so many people. The International Mass is said in the native tongue of the Priest saying the Mass. The one I attended was in French but there was a screen with translations of the Mass in English, German, and at least two other languages. There would also be smaller Masses going on and you can go to any one you want.

They also say Masses at the Grotto and each diocese is given a ‘slot,’ for want of a better word, and the bishop of the diocese will say the Mass in whatever language they speak. Mass goes on a the Grotto all through the day, the last one being at 11.00 and it depends which diocese has the ‘slot’ which language it will be said in. There is very much an International flavour at Lourdes although it is in France. Hotel staff and people in shops all speak several languages. Confessions also go on all day and are heard in several languages. There where Priests there who I believe where Dutch and they where dressed in white robes with a hood. There was also a West Indian Priest who was a really happy chappy with a flowery shirt and big gold crucifix. When you go to confession, there is a sign on the door denoting which language the Priest speaks. We had a joke that we would go to a Priest
who couldn’t speak English and therefore wouldn’t understand what we where saying! Perhaps there’s something to be said for not using Latin.

 

[elts1956]

I took the name Bernadette as my confirmation name. You can hear a Mass in just about any language you want in Lourdes. There is an International Mass on Sunday which is huge. There must have been about 50 priests giving out the Eucharist there are so many people. The International Mass is said in the native tongue of the Priest saying the Mass. The one I attended was in French but there was a screen with translations of the Mass in English, German, and at least two other languages. There would also be smaller Masses going on and you can go to any one you want.

They also say Masses at the Grotto and each diocese is given a ‘slot,’ for want of a better word, and the bishop of the diocese will say the Mass in whatever language they speak. Mass goes on a the Grotto all through the day, the last one being at 11.00 and it depends which diocese has the ‘slot’ which language it will be said in. There is very much an International flavour at Lourdes although it is in France. Hotel staff and people in shops all speak several languages. Confessions also go on all day and are heard in several languages. There where Priests there who I believe where Dutch and they where dressed in white robes with a hood. There was also a West Indian Priest who was a really happy chappy with a flowery shirt and big gold crucifix. When you go to confession, there is a sign on the door denoting which language the Priest speaks. We had a joke that we would go to a Priest
who couldn’t speak English and therefore wouldn’t understand what we where saying! Perhaps there’s something to be said for not using Latin.

Now that is a thought. I wonder if any priest within driving distance speaks Coration, Japanese, Italian, or any other language I don’t speak. ? Thanks for the lovely description. Maybe one day I will get there.

 

[minkymurph]

Now that is a thought. I wonder if any priest within driving distance speaks Coration, Japanese, Italian, or any other language I don’t speak. ? Thanks for the lovely description. Maybe one day I will get there.

As long as you don’t pick one that’s bi-lingual which a lot of them are!

Lourdes is a wonderful experience. I have a friend, who is also a friend of my husbands, who’s an atheist. He’s heard me talk about it so much he’s thinking of going with me sometime. In which case, my husband may come to. I don’t know they would be into the religious experience so much as the ‘holiday’ aspect of it but God works in mysterious ways!

We’re pretty spoilt here because every diocese has a pilgrimage to Lourdes, Rome, Fatima, Knock, Medjagorie , (probably spelt wrong!), and when possible, the Holy Lands every year. You can go with another diocese if you can’t go with your own. I had an opportunity to go to the Holy Lands about two years ago however someone went and started a war so the trip had to be cancelled. I had the opportunity to go again but it’s a lot more expensive and I just didn’t have the money. Oh well, some other time.

The last time I went to Lourdes there where about three planes went out. There where over 1 000 people not including the ‘Youth team’ and that was just our diocese which emcompasses County Down and part of County Antrim. It’s so reasonably priced at £420 pounds which is flight, hotel and full board. We go to the same hotel every year and the staff know all the ‘regulars’ as there are people who go every year. I talked to one woman who has gone every year for 13 years. It’s good for people like her who are alone as you always team up with somebody if you want but nobody imposes. I’ve gone on my own and it’s really nice to be able to bless yourself and wear any amount of religious emblems openly without fear of being beaten up! You can go to Mass and Confession as often and as little as you want and there are Penitential Services which I like and the blessing of the sick, which always on the last day, and everyone can be anointed. The nice thing about confession is as they go on all day, no one is in a hurry and you can talk as much as you want.

 

[sskelly]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask?
Let’s see… The liturgy has been butchered beyond comprehension. The Music resembles a really bad Peter Paul & Mary concert. Catechesis in the true faith is virtually non-existent. Tens of millions of Catholics take the “cafeteria” approach, or have either lost their faith completely. A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims. Judging by condition of the Church during the past 40 years, I would say that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster!!!

Gee I’m glad you said this, I couldn’t agree more, but it took a long time for me realize. ( Most of my neighbors couldn’t care less, don’t want Latin and want “out” in a half hour.) One nice little good thing in this local church = at the consecration of bread and wine the whole congregation says out loud “My Lord and My God.” I love that.

 

[minkymurph]

Just a question on Latin. Does anyone know when Latin became the language of the Church and why? What language(s) did the Apostles and early christians speak?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Just a question on Latin. Does anyone know when Latin became the language of the Church and why? What language(s) did the Apostles and early christians speak?

The apostles and early Christians spoke greek. They changed it to Latin in some places starting around the 200’s so that the regular people in western Europe could understand what was being said. (greek was common in the east, latin more gradually became used in the west).

 

[minkymurph]

The apostles and early Christians spoke greek. They changed it to Latin in some places starting around the 200’s so that the regular people in western Europe could understand what was being said. (greek was common in the east, latin more gradually became used in the west).

I didn’t realize it would have been as early as the 200’s. I thought for some reason it would have been much later, perhaps at Nicea. Do the Eastern Churches use Latin?

I can understand why people want to preserve the use of Latin from what has been said here. However It would be fair to say that the message of the Gospel was first heard in Greek and had to be translated into Latin. How do people here feel about opinions that exist today that the Bible has been subject to years of human fallibility, that truths may have been lost as a result of translation and higher criticism of scripture?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I didn’t realize it would have been as early as the 200’s. I thought for some reason it would have been much later, perhaps at Nicea. Do the Eastern Churches use Latin?

From Wikipedia:

It is unclear when the language of the celebration changed from Greek to Latin. Pope Victor I (190–202), an African, may have been the first to use Latin in the liturgy in Rome. Others think Latin was finally adopted nearly a century later.[3] The change was probably gradual, with both languages being used for a while.[4]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Tridentine_Mass

 

[Jacafamala]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask?
Let’s see… The liturgy has been butchered beyond comprehension. The Music resembles a really bad Peter Paul & Mary concert. Catechesis in the true faith is virtually non-existent. Tens of millions of Catholics take the “cafeteria” approach, or have either lost their faith completely. A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims. Judging by condition of the Church during the past 40 years, I would say that Vatican II was an unmitigated disaster!!!

So, would I be correct to surmise that you’re not overly fond of it?

 

[bankerdavid]

Vatican II only re-enforced bringing the Catholic Church into the Modern age.

Only problem was, many of those who received the documents of VII used them to liberalize the Church.

Lots of good has come out of VII, especially if you look at the current crop of seminarians. The Church swings through cycles-liberal to conservative to liberal to conservative. What people don’t seem to really understand is that the Church never changes. The Church Christ founded can never change doctrinally!

 

[Writer]

This is the question I ask myself often. Anyone?

It’s hard to say, but, if hadn’t been for Pope John Paul II (and perhaps Vatican II), I don’t think our family would have joined the Catholic Church. I am nt sure it would have ocurred to us as a realistic option. He was always an inspiration to me–from Catholic grade school (attended as a Protestant kid) to the present. As we also have extended family seriously considering to join the Church from the Episcopal Church, I am not sure what influence this pope had on their spiritual journeys.

 

[pnewton]

Lots of good has come out of VII, especially if you look at the current crop of seminarians. The Church swings through cycles-liberal to conservative to liberal to conservative. What people don’t seem to really understand is that the Church never changes. The Church Christ founded can never change doctrinally!

AH! Some one else does know how to post on topic. I know that mm3861 is new, but all the more reason not to jump on to post completely off the topic of the good that has come out of Vatican II. That is what the OP wanted after all**. **

 

[elts1956]

Just a question on Latin. Does anyone know when Latin became the language of the Church and why? What language(s) did the Apostles and early christians speak?

Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek.

 

[jthiel]

This is the question I ask myself often. Anyone?

I think Vatican II was very neccesary to modernize the Church, not in its base doctrine, but in its presentation. Forgive me, but in our world today a Latin Mass probably strikes most people as a little out there. Sure it is beautiful and the traditions of the church used it exclusively for over a thousand years, but from a scriptural or doctrinal standpoint there is little reason for the latin mass, and mass in the vernacular certaintly allows for more understanding, which is basically the point.

I think those who say that VII killed Catechisis in the Church are mistaken. Sure, it probably led to a more varied interpretation of scripture, but the core Catholic Teaching remains standard. I doubt that more people reading and understanding the Bible and Mass can have hurt our faith. I also find the proposition that Vatican II led to the Sex scandals of the past few years ridiculous.

 

[Aramis]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask? A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims.

Don’t know about elsewhere, but the most public cases in Alaska predate Vatican II… 1940-1960, most of them. They are being sued just as they retire.

 

[Fran65]

What good has come out of Vatican II you ask?
A billion dollar sex scandal that has ruined the lives of untold numbers of victims.

Surely you are not suggesting that there were no cases of abuse prior to Vatican II?

Whilst you might argue that the statistics do not support this, that would more than likely be because abuse was so stigmatised that prior to the 1970s people did not talk about or report their experiences.

The public acknowledgement, apology and a willingness to deal with abuse in the Church may be because of Vatican II - and that would be a good thing surely?

Perhaps I have misunderstood you and what you are referring to accusations of innocent Priests?

 

[603304529]

Gee I’m glad you said this, I couldn’t agree more, but it took a long time for me realize. ( Most of my neighbors couldn’t care less, don’t want Latin and want “out” in a half hour.) One nice little good thing in this local church = at the consecration of bread and wine the whole congregation says out loud “My Lord and My God.” I love that.

Erm. I don’t want to burst your bubble, but the indulgence granted in the very early 1900’s for saying adoringly “My Lord and My God” was further clarified about 15 years later to be “indulgence only granted if the words are said silently” - ie, the words should not be said out loud…

Unless this rule has been rescinded - anyone?

 

[minkymurph]

The apostles and early Christians spoke greek. They changed it to Latin in some places starting around the 200’s so that the regular people in western Europe could understand what was being said. (greek was common in the east, latin more gradually became used in the west).

That being the case, one could argue the Mass should be said in Greek. If truths may be lost by translation from Latin to another language, then you could argue that it is at least possible that certain truths that where taught by the Apostles could have altered through translation from Latin to Greek. If these truths where not lost, then why do some advocate they may be lost by translation from Latin to another language?

In relation to the above, why did the Church opt for Latin as it’s official language as opposed to Greek in order to preserve truths?